Brain Drain: Coming soon to a 1st world country near you!

[Cognisant]

This guy has a pretty interesting channel, the video itself is just to piss off a certain kind of person.

He's very much a counter-femnazi and I don't take it all too seriously because that can be a really toxic way to think, y'know you don't want to start thinking "it's all the women's fault, women are terrible" but to his credit I think he's aware of that trap and actively avoiding it.

 

[Black Rose]

Does this guy ever think creationism will be taught in schools?

If schools mandate political ideology in stem fields, millions of teachers will need new jobs. They will work in the business sector. Billions will be lost by collages. Students will have no place to get stem degrees. The smart ones will learn it themselves. I am one of the dumb ones. I suck a stem stuff.

 

[Pyropyro]

Okay, that was an interesting but seriously though, scientists will leave if there is punishing research funding cuts.

I'm not sure if feminism is the culprit this time but then again you guys have that weird Metoo movement thing which is stupid for both sexes from my outsider's perspective. I might post about my perspective if you're interested.

 

[Pyropyro]

Does this guy ever think creationism will be taught in schools?

If schools mandate political ideology in stem fields, millions of teachers will need new jobs. They will work in the business sector. Billions will be lost by collages. Students will have no place to get stem degrees. The smart ones will learn it themselves. I am one of the dumb ones. I suck a stem stuff.

Why in the God-Emperor's name would researchers want to politicize STEM? For crying out loud if the Humanities and Social Sciences want to fight it out in the streets then by all means do. Let them holler all they want, as for me, I'll try help scientists and researchers invent things that help save or better lives.

 

[Black Rose]

Why in the God-Emperor's name would researchers want to politicize STEM?

Did you watch the video? The random professors wrote it should be politicized not the researchers. pay more attention. If these random professors gain power they can make the school government mandate stem to include politics in stem.

 

[redbaron]

do these random professors do research?

 

[Black Rose]

do these random professors do research?

I suspect not stem research. derp

 

[Pyropyro]

Did you watch the video? The random professors wrote it should be politicized not the researchers. pay more attention. If these random professors gain power they can make the school government mandate stem to include politics in stem.

And pray tell, why should we listen to this professors? Seriously, let them holler in the streets. Politicized science leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Let me show you one in my country: Dengue vaccine.

The Dengue vaccine national immunization was a pet project by the last administration. Noble? Oh yes since Dengue is a deadly disease. Pettily executed? Doubly so since the vaccine was only partially effective and with Dengue's antibody-dependent enhancement that means that partially effective antibodies can cause a mild infection to evolve into a deadly one.

So the current administration found this and gleefully demonized the vaccine drive since vaccinated kids are dying. Now there's a backlash on ALL vaccines.

So what do we get from two different parties politicizing vaccines?
* lots of kids dying horrible deaths due to mishandling of dengue vaccines
* lots of future dead kids now that they aren't vaccinated from normally preventable diseases

So no. Screw your politics.

 

[Black Rose]

modified what Pyropyro said.

Why would STEM researchers want to politicize STEM?

This doesn't make sense.
STEM researchers don't want to politicise STEM,
People outside stem want to politicize it.
By taking control of the school government by gaining public support.

 

[Black Rose]

And pray tell, why should we listen to this professors?

So no. Screw your politics.

don't be dense

I am only describing what the danger is which is that if these people gain public support to politicize stem then this is bad and that what I said was that what will happen if they gain control of the school government is that teachers will leave schools because these radical professors gained power to politicize stem.

Are you are dense? because you think I believe stem should be politicized when I do not believe it should. I believe stem should not be politicized. I am describing the consequences if it is politicized and how it could happen. Are you to dense to understand this?

 

[Black Rose]

General message to a general audience.

I was describing the consequences of politicizing stem.

I believe politicizing stem is bad you idiots.

I believe it should not happen you dense fools.

a general audience.


non-general

you cannot tell me to screw my politics because I do not want politics in stem so you are just deluding yourself believing untrue things.

 

[Hadoblado]

This is the sort of thing that I just discard unless they can back it with numbers.

I'm not saying it's not a thing, but using this level of evidence can justify thinking literally anything. He's talking in terms of individuals and anecdote. The effect size is probably tiny.

Also it's kind of weird that the punchline isn't that our best and brightest aren't being used, but that someone else might use them. As if it's okay to suck so long as other people suck too?

It feels like fearmongering against both feminism and other countries.

 

[redbaron]

people who create the curriculum for a subject are typically the professors who teach the actual subject. the threat of some humanities professors somehow "gaining control of the school government" (how?) and then mandating to professors in other fields how they need to teach their field seems like a red herring to me. how are they going to make geologists start attaching political motivations to geology? or physicists attach politics to nuclear physics?

i'll be worried about this when i start seeing professors in STEM fields start to talk about the need for politicisation of STEM, but I imagine most or maybe all of them don't feel that way at all.

the real threat to apolitical scientific research is privatisation, where corporate interest has the potential to encourage or outright coerce researchers to produce faulty data or misleading conclusions from their research in name of funding similar to what's been seen in pharmaceutical research.

also i didn't watch the video because it's probably shit based on the synopsis :^)~

 

[Pyropyro]

don't be dense

I am only describing what the danger is which is that if these people gain public support to politicize stem then this is bad and that what I said was that what will happen if they gain control of the school government is that teachers will leave schools because these radical professors gained power to politicize stem.

Are you are dense? because you think I believe stem should be politicized when I do not believe it should. I believe stem should not be politicized. I am describing the consequences if it is politicized and how it could happen. Are you to dense to understand this?

Im not dense.

I called you out, simple as that.

 

[Black Rose]

the people who create the curriculum for a subject are typically the professors who teach the actual subject. the threat of some humanities professors somehow "gaining control of the school government" (how?) and then mandating to professors in other fields how they need to teach their field seems like a red herring to me.

You seem a lot more socially smart than I am which is one of the reasons you are a moderator. What Hadoblado said was socially intelligent as well. I was just going off the premise without thinking about it as deep as you both did. I kind of knew it was stupid but I followed the line of reasoning anyway. When I know things are stupid and I cannot explain why I just default to the presuppositions of the other party which is limited but is only what I can handle. Remeber I do not know how to explain the incorrectness of the others proposition even if I just know they are wrong. I do not have the strong logic capabilities to break down all the flaws. I have a limit in manipulating my thoughts to fit the answers to the questions.

 

[Black Rose]

Im not dense.

I called you out, simple as that.

Then why do you misrepresent my position? That is just dishonest.
If you think I want politics in stem and claim so then you are super dishonest and lie about people for petty reasons.

you cannot tell me to screw my politics because I do not want politics in stem so you are just deluding yourself believing untrue things.

 

[Pyropyro]

Then why do you misrepresent my position? That is just dishonest.
If you think I want politics in stem and claim so then you are super dishonest and lie about people for petty reasons.

Sure I'm a petty, dishonest person. Happy now? Do you feel morally superior and super intelligent now?

Can we drop this? I like to reply to Hado and Rb's positions.

 

[Black Rose]

Sure I'm a petty, dishonest person. Happy now? Do you feel morally superior and super intelligent now?

Can we drop this? I like to reply to Hado and Rb's positions.

I found the real problem. You do not know English well. see below.

Politicized science leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Your dishonesty is that you say I want science politicized and you say screw you to me but you can't understand I want the opposite of politics in science and do not understand that I reject this which you reject but you make me the enemy for saying the same thing you say because you are saying screw me for explaining the problem. I am your enemy because you have bad English to read what I said. I said it is bad to have politics in science and you believe this is bad also but your bad English means you don't understand I believe what you believe so screw me for being on your side because of I explained why its bad to put politics in science. You fucking do not get it. Your English is bad. I was saying something you would agree with if you understand English. But Because you do not I am your enemy because we believe the same god fucking damn thing. I was just explaining things I was not saying politics should be put in science. But who cares, screw me.

 

[redbaron]

i don't think pyro was really that invested in arguing with you as if you represented the politicisation of science, and it wasn't an entirely erroneous conclusion to come to in the context of the conversation

like pyro said, if the 'Humanities and Social Sciences' want to fight it out, let them - his point essentially being the same as mine, that what humanities professors do, doesn't really impact STEM at the end of the day. it sounded like you weren't considering that AK, that's all. i actually took this for granted, and i expanded on that point and why it's a red herring because i realised that people not that familiar with university structures (generally) might not.

it's a basic enough misunderstanding, no one's being petty or dishonest.

pyro's probably more familiar with university structures and the like than i am since he does STEM research if i recall correctly. i'd listen to him before i listened to me about this topic in all fairness

 

[Hadoblado]

What the fuck bois

Find your chill.

AK you're being condescending af, not just here. I don't know what's causing it, but if you managed to find a fight with pyro (is this your first scuffle on INTPf pyro?) Ima go ahead and say you need to make adjustments. This is unlike you, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

We here for you mang, you don't needa treat people bad.

 

[Pyropyro]

This is the sort of thing that I just discard unless they can back it with numbers.

I'm not saying it's not a thing, but using this level of evidence can justify thinking literally anything. He's talking in terms of individuals and anecdote. The effect size is probably tiny.

Also it's kind of weird that the punchline isn't that our best and brightest aren't being used, but that someone else might use them. As if it's okay to suck so long as other people suck too?

It feels like fearmongering against both feminism and other countries.

I don't know where the youtuber is coming from. According to this site USA's STEM employment rate is quite healthy (at least until 2015). It's healthy enough to accommodate foreign workers. I don't see any reasons why a scientist or engineer needs to bail out of the country if we are only talking about employment and money. There's some other issues like people of color and women getting shafted but I think that's another interesting topic altogether.

Also that Tim Hunt's actions are deplorable. Basically bashed his colleagues in front of one of their events.

 

[Pyropyro]

What the fuck bois

Find your chill.

AK you're being condescending af, not just here. I don't know what's causing it, but if you managed to find a fight with pyro (is this your first scuffle on INTPf pyro?) Ima go ahead and say you need to make adjustments. This is unlike you, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

We here for you mang, you don't needa treat people bad.

Sigh, I really just want to get on topic Anyways, I'm cool now. Sorry if I offend anyone.

Maybe anime just got a bad day or something, sometimes its just okay to walk away.

 

[Pyropyro]

people who create the curriculum for a subject are typically the professors who teach the actual subject. the threat of some humanities professors somehow "gaining control of the school government" (how?) and then mandating to professors in other fields how they need to teach their field seems like a red herring to me. how are they going to make geologists start attaching political motivations to geology? or physicists attach politics to nuclear physics?

i'll be worried about this when i start seeing professors in STEM fields start to talk about the need for politicisation of STEM, but I imagine most or maybe all of them don't feel that way at all.

the real threat to apolitical scientific research is privatisation, where corporate interest has the potential to encourage or outright coerce researchers to produce faulty data or misleading conclusions from their research in name of funding similar to what's been seen in pharmaceutical research.

also i didn't watch the video because it's probably shit based on the synopsis :^)~

I don't want to say any specifics but yeah, private money is very tempting and researchers, while mostly decent people, are not exactly saints either.

On the other hand, there are also shameless corporations on using University trademarks/logos and researcher names unethically. I think one of our Universities here sued a company for saying that their product is "Proudly University X tested" when in actuality, the University just tested like, the number of microbes in their product samples or something.

 

[Black Rose]

This made me most upset, My last response.

Spoiler: Last things

screw your politics

I do not want politics in STEM

STEM I suck at it. I really do not but,

College to too much problems for me,

My family, everything, it doesn't work out.

And my mental and physical health.

I feel like I said I cannot mentally manipulate much.

Socialist are not going to take over stem,
how did cog think posting the video was a good idea?

 

[kora]

No one actually likes SJW's. And people like them less and less, not more and more. I know because direct empirical evidence. SJW circles near me (feminist talk group at my uni that I actually in part founded) gradually shrink and become this little ridiculous echo chamber. They can only remain among themselves and whenever they try and peddle their oppressive methodology of thought to the outside world they are ignored, trolled, laughed at or taken down (by both males and females.) The reason they are so vocal however is that they hold grains of moral truths in the theories that they engage with.

Sexism is objectively real and not just a subjective imaginary phenomenon and the mainstream visibility of these problematics are good. Gender stereotypes also harm men, it's not just a female problem and it's unfortunate that it has been painted as such and in so doing alienated much of the population from the discussion.

God I'm bored of this topic. I pray people try and leave the reactionary bubble where they are scandalized at the behavior of idiots and think they are the norm TAKING OVER SOCIETY ROTTING IT FROM THE INSIDE. This dude is just anotther reactionary dramatizing problems out of proportion and painting them as a societal plague. His self righteous tone and uncharismatic voice annoys me, coupled with his dumb kitsch video game composed of chicks bouncing their boobs at you. Clearly I am not his audience.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

It seems that the guy didn't really understand the paper (giving him the benefit of the doubt here – he probably didn't even read it). In its abstract, it says:

The authors’ findings show that women recognize their marginality [in the engineering field], providing clear and strong criticisms of their experiences. But these criticisms remain isolated and muted; they coalesce neither into broader organizational or institutional criticisms of engineering, nor into calls for change. Instead, their criticisms are interpreted through two values central to engineering culture: meritocracy and individualism.

So the point is not that the the engineering field is at fault for being meritocratic, but that the meritocratic values preclude attempts at raising issues regarding marginalization of females etc.

The stuff about Tim Hunt was not really relevant to the topic, but one thing is clear: the treatment of Tim Hunt was one of the most disgusting outcomes of feminist hysteria. The people responsible for destroying that man's life should be behind bars.

 

[Pyropyro]

So the point is not that the the engineering field is at fault for being meritocratic, but that the meritocratic values preclude attempts at raising issues regarding marginalization of females etc.

The stuff about Tim Hunt was not really relevant to the topic, but one thing is clear: the treatment of Tim Hunt was one of the most disgusting outcomes of feminist hysteria. The people responsible for destroying that man's life should be behind bars.

That means STEM's cool then if they discriminate by merit.

I agree, what he did was dishonorable but that can be fixed via disciplinary actions. I've heard of worse non-sexual researcher dickery that were met with lighter sentences.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

I agree, what he did was dishonorable but that can be fixed via disciplinary actions. I've heard of worse non-sexual researcher dickery that were met with lighter sentences.

Disciplinary actions? Sounds like a goddamn kindergarten to me. He made some joke that was not even ostensibly misogynist.

The only mistake he did was to start apologizing. To hysterical feminists that's like blood in the water, because that just validates their nonsense narratives.

 

[redbaron]

I don't get what he did wrong

 

[Pyropyro]

I don't get what he did wrong

Maybe I just have a collective mindset but wouldn't jokes like his are at the expense of the organization? I mean, he's on foreign soil. Wouldn't it be more beneficial for one to be on the best behavior while in that formal gathering?

 

[redbaron]

i guess so but i don't really care what researchers do outside of their research

maybe someone's a misogynist, but they're there to do science, not be a role model of good behaviour. his comments weren't really targeted at anyone or any group either. then again professionalism is far from my strong suit so i might be a bad judge of this - i find the whole concept fake and intrusive

 

[kora]

iirc he said that women should be in separate labs because they cry and are distracting emotionally/sexually. He said it was a joke, and we only got those brief lines, a colleague who was there said he went on like that for about 5 mins.

I don't really know what to think of that kind of stuff, I don't know how half serious half joking it is or whatever, it's certainly in poor taste.

I don't know what any of you think of this, but it seems that sexist jokes are said far more easily than racist jokes, I tend to think about the parallel when I hear it. Say he had been talking about black colleagues and made some stereotypical joke and said how difficult it is to have them around. Am I wrong to make the parallel ? It doesn't tend to shock me as much either, but then I can't really find the rationale for why it doesn't, it seems disparaging sex stereotypes/jokes are taken far more lightly. Isn't the dude just a massive prick for saying stuff like that anyway?

Anyway disbarring is pretty extreme perhaps? I'm undecided due to above. I wouldn't have been part of the outcry, should have been something that stayed within the discussion of the people who were present and the colleagues.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

No one cared about that joke until this woman called Connie St Louis posted quotes on social media out of context.

A member of the audience, Connie St Louis, tweeted her recollection of parts of this speech on 8 June. These comments without context were widely re-tweeted, but not until a day later, on 9 June; they were then condemned in a reaction that The Observer described as a "particularly vicious social media campaign",[42] Hunt being subject to "intense, vitriolic online abuse".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hunt#Public_reaction

It was later revealed, btw, that this woman had a bunch of fake items in her CV

Meanwhile an online CV posted by Mrs St Louis said she had an ‘upper second’ BSc (Hons) in applied biology – although it was not clear where this was awarded.
Leading academics described Mrs St Louis’s apparent falsification of her CV as a serious matter yesterday.
Alan Smithers, a professor in education at the University of Buckingham, said: ‘When you get on your high horse, you must make sure you have four strong legs.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-dubious-claims-career-told-update-CV.html

 

[Black Rose]

From the wiki - What was actually said.

On 8 June 2015, during the 2015 WCSJ, at a lunch for female journalists and scientists, Hunt was asked on short notice to give a toast. Hunt's impromptu speech was later recounted by an unnamed EU official:[37][38][39]

It's strange that such a chauvinist monster like me has been asked to speak to women scientists. Let me tell you about my trouble with girls. Three things happen when they are in the lab: you fall in love with them, they fall in love with you, and when you criticise them they cry. Perhaps we should make separate labs for boys and girls? Now, seriously, I'm impressed by the economic development of Korea. And women scientists played, without doubt an important role in it. Science needs women, and you should do science, despite all the obstacles, and despite monsters like me.​

​

A short recording was made at the event by Natalia Demina. In it, Hunt said:[40][37]

So, congratulations, everybody, and I hope – I hope – I hope – I really do hope there is nothing holding you back, especially not monsters like me.​

​

In the recording, one can hear Hunt's concluding remarks being followed by a very brief piece of laughter and applause before the recording ends.[41]

 

[Kuu]

Am I wrong to make the parallel ?

Yes. We really don't need [insert chosen racial group here] for the furtherance of humanity, they could all be killed and humans would go on, but females, while they have been oppressed and mistreated in various ways, have only rarely ever been persecuted to exterminate them. Not only are they necessary, but desirable too. Indeed it is that desirability the nature of the attempts to control them, which is quite different from the hatred of other ethnicities, of which history has multiple examples of annihilations.

Sexist remarks are loaded with sexual tension and are often a strange component of courtship rituals. One is a love-need/hate thing, the other just a hate thing.

 

[Kuu]

Now in regards to the video:

If brain drain does accelerate in the west, it is most likely *not* because of runaway SJWs. Money is the root motivator in the phenomenon. SJWs are not ruining the economy, it was already ruined by cronyism and corruption and banking. I had to stop midway through the video cause I assumed it was just gonna be more "muh SJWs".

I'm also extremely tired of people thinking that insane SJW politicization is an organic thing, and not a deliberately stoked insanity weaponized by very calculating groups; these people are pawns in a larger board, and focusing on them instead of those that fund them is fucking stupid. Without external support, these insane SJW groups are so toxic they would have self-destructed long ago. The mass media is a major accomplice.