Borderline INTP (INXP) = problems

[BigApplePi]

A distinction should be made only if it has explanatory value.

Agreed. It helps explain to those who are confused as to their type.

What such a distinction constitutes now is nothing more than a name for all the behaviors which do not fall under the 4 cognitive functions, which however everyone has. Ie it says nothing.

Can you rephrase that? I think I know what you are saying but ...

What is the point of Including this into MBTI when it cannot be systematically and without any empirical basis? It is better to simply call it human behavior and define the 4 main functions by their relative prominence.

It is an extension of the MBTI. I wish to explain ALL behavior. If some wish to label what is outside of the MBTI as trivial, that is their privilege.

Another consequence of having all and any behavior be a sign of a function at work is that there would need to exist more functions.

There are only eight CF's. Everyone should be capable of awareness of any of those eight ... at least in theory. It is possible to be aware of any of thinking, feeling, intuiting and sensing as existing both in oneself and in the outside world. Some will ignore some of those functions. So be it.

Am I to assume you are INFJ Cherry? If so, you lead in Ni but don't party with Ne. Perhaps what I'm talking is Ne and you will desire to frown on that just as I frown on Ni.

 

[BigApplePi]

Hi Brontosaurie.

 

[Absurdity]

Re: Attempt @ Clarity of a Complex Topic

I'm claiming when an INTP = Ti Ne Si Fe gets into an Fi state, the stack gets wacked. The INTP loses his INTP characteristics and behaves like a lead Fi = IxFP.

Or they just behaves like an INTP using an unfamiliar function. The difference between an INTP using Fi and an IXFP using Fi is that the IXFP is infinitely more adept and comfortable with Fi than the INTP is. To say that the INTP behaves like an IXFP lead is to say that the INTP suddenly gains proficiency with an alien function.

 

[nightstreaking]

I skipped most of posts on this thread (sorry!), but I voted "No" because of the following:

"Dario Nardi has discovered that people of different personality types don't merely rely on different brain regions -- they use their brains in fundamentally different ways."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGfhQTbcqmA

 

[crippli]

The cognitive functions only make people confused. It is better to just go by the dichotomies. I/E, S/N, T/F, J/P. Most should be able to pick 4 of the 8 letters. Voila, problem solved.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

If you're so hellbent on pigeonholing yourself then you should study MBTI holistically, easier to see where you fit if all the rest of them pieces are there. Ie read about all the types, perhaps buy a book, study the functions carefully etc.

Although it really shouldn't be so difficult to determine what you are anyway. To me it just looks like you're expecting a categorical definite that will fit you like a glove from a foggy abstract construct (MBTI); wherefore, instead of determining your type by means of function analysis, you get hung up on type descriptions. Remember there are 16 types to account for 6 billion people. Ofc similar types have a lot in common and likewise tis pretty obvious that the types are pretty broad so as to be able to account for everyone.

There are plenty of people who stand out in their given types. Displaying atypical behavior and thinking on a surface level. That's why you got to pin it down to functions.

Short story: CC's bolded advice was key and Graymen got it right first. I read nothing but function (as opposed to type) descriptions and I did so in light of (1) how I was as a youth and (2) how I am when not under stress (which is pretty rare). I soon realized that both my Fi and Ti were quite strong; I believe this is why I consistently receive close INFP/INTP scores. Te exists, but to a much lesser degree than Ti and usually based upon (1) stress levels and (2) prolonged periods of advocating/defending my beliefs when I feel compelled to do so. What really seemed like Fe was, I think, Fi in the guise of Fe (in that I often don't really care about the group as a whole but the individuals within the group -- but sometimes that is everyone in the group if the group is small enough or specific enough).

Long story (for those who might be interested in the details from an analytical point of view)...
Though I identify with both Ti and Fi heavily, my Ti is clearly subservient to my Fi and not the other way around. Since my beliefs, values, etc. play a major role in my life (Fi), I use the Ti to make sure that my stances are reasonable and grounded upon something other than my own personal intuition, fancy, or whim. If my core beliefs/values are not in play, then (in most cases) I feel no pressing need to be very logical about the matter because I'm probably not thinking/caring much about it. Most of my mental time is tied-up in value/belief reflection -- the rest preferring the social sciences, aesthetics, and leisure activities (all of which have subjective elements not befitting pure logic). I'm only into science and technology when it either pertains to my beliefs or else gives me a mental "high" ("weird" science, cutting edge tech, conspiracy-related tech, etc.). Yet, my Ti is still strong and I attempt to be as logical as possible when involved in any dispute/controversy -- while not ignoring my strong gut instincts/intuition (Fi) about the truth of a matter or the genuineness of an individual. Ti serves Fi but I will not let Fi dominate without reassurance from Ti that I am being accurate. So, I have a strong, built in second-guessing -to- fact checking system.

As I reflect on Fe vs. Fi in a group sense, Fe plays only a small part (if any). Most of it pertains to injustice/value paradigms (it would be unjust / wrong to leave one person out of a conversation) and I "Fi" with the individuals who are not integrated into the group due to (1) personal identification with their potential pain/awkwardness and (2) value judgments (since, again, it's not right to leave them standing there). I have little "Fe" need for the *entire* group to get along. If there is disharmony, it doesn't bother me until friends, the weak, the down-trodden, or core causes/beliefs are affected. I can't remember the last time I went against my core values to keep the peace or to "fit in." I may remain silent sometimes, but never do I capitulate.

As for Te and Ti, I am like a dam... I let things build up, build up, and then break. When it breaks, the Te aspect becomes dominant. Most of the time, I do not care whether someone agrees with me or not. However, under stress, then I am more likely to care and set out to straighten them out (especially if my vies are mischaracterized --- maybe not the best Te example, but...). My Te also comes into heavy play at work when I feel the need to organize/categorize everything and to solve problems sequentially to get them resolved efficiently. Te even dominates Ti at work as I am consistently the "identify the problem, identify the options, pick the best option, get it done now, and get it done efficiently," type of guy.

Finally, I think that my mental woes, to a significant degree, come from having a very strong Fi aspect that I have been (for nearly two decades) consciously / unconsciously suppressing in favor of that high level of Ti consistency (in my mind) and Te efficiency (at work). Plus, because Fi is more identified with women, there is an embarrassment aspect that causes me to want to keep it out of sight / out of mind beyond the "core belief/values" aspect. However, the bottling up of that Fi emotion has led to problems of its own and it has, several times, broken through. The trick to better health and integration (for me at least) is to strive to just be my Fi/Ti self. But "striving" to "just be myself" sounds like a contradiction... Such is life.

Thanks to everyone -- would not have gotten to this degree of understanding without all of your input.

 

[crippli]

Short story: CC's bolded advice was key and Graymen got it right first. I read nothing but function (as opposed to type) descriptions and I did so in light of (1) how I was as a youth and (2) how I am when not under stress (which is pretty rare). I soon realized that both my Fi and Ti were quite strong; I believe this is why I consistently receive close INFP/INTP scores. Te exists, but to a much lesser degree than Ti and usually based upon (1) stress levels and (2) prolonged periods of advocating/defending my beliefs when I feel compelled to do so. What really seemed like Fe was, I think, Fi in the guise of Fe (in that I often don't really care about the group as a whole but the individuals within the group -- but sometimes that is everyone in the group if the group is small enough or specific enough).

Long story (for those who might be interested in the details from an analytical point of view)...
Though I identify with both Ti and Fi heavily, my Ti is clearly subservient to my Fi and not the other way around. Since my beliefs, values, etc. play a major role in my life (Fi), I use the Ti to make sure that my stances are reasonable and grounded upon something other than my own personal intuition, fancy, or whim. If my core beliefs/values are not in play, then (in most cases) I feel no pressing need to be very logical about the matter because I'm probably not thinking/caring much about it. Most of my mental time is tied-up in value/belief reflection -- the rest preferring the social sciences, aesthetics, and leisure activities (all of which have subjective elements not befitting pure logic). I'm only into science and technology when it either pertains to my beliefs or else gives me a mental "high" ("weird" science, cutting edge tech, conspiracy-related tech, etc.). Yet, my Ti is still strong and I attempt to be as logical as possible when involved in any dispute/controversy -- while not ignoring my strong gut instincts/intuition (Fi) about the truth of a matter or the genuineness of an individual. Ti serves Fi but I will not let Fi dominate without reassurance from Ti that I am being accurate. So, I have a strong, built in second-guessing -to- fact checking system.

As I reflect on Fe vs. Fi in a group sense, Fe plays only a small part (if any). Most of it pertains to injustice/value paradigms (it would be unjust / wrong to leave one person out of a conversation) and I "Fi" with the individuals who are not integrated into the group due to (1) personal identification with their potential pain/awkwardness and (2) value judgments (since, again, it's not right to leave them standing there). I have little "Fe" need for the *entire* group to get along. If there is disharmony, it doesn't bother me until friends, the weak, the down-trodden, or core causes/beliefs are affected. I can't remember the last time I went against my core values to keep the peace or to "fit in." I may remain silent sometimes, but never do I capitulate.

As for Te and Ti, I am like a dam... I let things build up, build up, and then break. When it breaks, the Te aspect becomes dominant. Most of the time, I do not care whether someone agrees with me or not. However, under stress, then I am more likely to care and set out to straighten them out (especially if my vies are mischaracterized --- maybe not the best Te example, but...). My Te also comes into heavy play at work when I feel the need to organize/categorize everything and to solve problems sequentially to get them resolved efficiently. Te even dominates Ti at work as I am consistently the "identify the problem, identify the options, pick the best option, get it done now, and get it done efficiently," type of guy.

Finally, I think that my mental woes, to a significant degree, come from having a very strong Fi aspect that I have been (for nearly two decades) consciously / unconsciously suppressing in favor of that high level of Ti consistency (in my mind) and Te efficiency (at work). Plus, because Fi is more identified with women, there is an embarrassment aspect that causes me to want to keep it out of sight / out of mind beyond the "core belief/values" aspect. However, the bottling up of that Fi emotion has led to problems of its own and it has, several times, broken through. The trick to better health and integration (for me at least) is to strive to just be my Fi/Ti self. But "striving" to "just be myself" sounds like a contradiction... Such is life.

Thanks to everyone -- would not have gotten to this degree of understanding without all of your input.

Now, detach, and read this again. And tell me what type you are? Even better pick the post appart and argue why certain sentences describe what functions.

PS- I did that while I read your post. And to me the conclusion on this post is quite clear. I could post it if you want my findings to be peer reviewed. Personally I doubt it's necessary.

Welcome btw, nice to meet you.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

Now, detach, and read this again. And tell me what type you are? Even better pick the post appart and argue why certain sentences describe what functions.

PS- I did that while I read your post. And to me the conclusion on this post is quite clear. I could post it if you want my findings to be peer reviewed. Personally I doubt it's necessary.

Welcome btw, nice to meet you.

Hello Crippli, thanks for the response. Mine is as follows:

INFP Wins: Based upon my words in the previous post, I am convinced I am an INFP with a higher than normal Ti development. In light of your suggestion to analyze it objectively (detached), I think the following support an INFP+Ti pov:

Why INFP: INFP's have a highly developed value/ethics/belief system that guides us. INFPs are imaginative idealists, guided by their own core values and beliefs.We search for meaning, truth, and have very strong ideals. This all fits in with statements of mine like "Since my beliefs, values, etc. play a major role in my life..." However, the Ti aspect (usually associated with INTP) plays a strong but subservient role in that it seeks to apply logic, rational thought, to my understanding of my core values and beliefs.

Ti never far behind: I have strong intuitive feelings about right and wrong in general, and numerous beliefs/values of mine in particular, but for whatever reason, I cannot trust the gut "feelings"/intuition alone and must (for the Fi "feeling" of peace of mind, use the Ti thinking process to validate/legitimize my thoughts).

INFP Harmony: Keirsey says of the INFP/Idealist "...And their great passion is to heal the conflicts that trouble individuals, or that divide groups, and thus to bring wholeness, or health, to themselves, their loved ones, and their community." This is an Fi trait in that, unlike the Fe, I do not want to seek group harmony by forcing myself to play by the rules of others or to make all of the others play by the established rules of others. Instead, I want to seek harmony based upon ethical, just, and moral rules that are grounded in what i believe to be sound, logical foundations.

Keirsey also states "Healers have a profound sense of idealism that comes from a strong personal sense of right and wrong. They conceive of the world as an ethical, honorable place." This INFP mindset ties-in with my statement "I "Fi" with the individuals who are not integrated into the group due to (1) personal identification with their potential pain/awkwardness and (2) value judgments (since, again, it's not right to leave them standing there). I have little "Fe" need for the *entire* group to get along. If there is disharmony, it doesn't bother me until friends, the weak, the down-trodden, or core causes/beliefs are affected."

Te as the inferior of INFP and the shadow of INTP (Te is greatest under stress).
I wrote "Most of the time, I do not care whether someone agrees with me or not. However, under stress, then I am more likely to care and set out to straighten them out (especially if my vies are mischaracterized --- maybe not the best Te example, but...). My Te also comes into heavy play at work when I feel the need to organize/categorize everything and to solve problems sequentially to get them resolved efficiently. Te even dominates Ti at work as I am consistently the "identify the problem, identify the options, pick the best option, get it done now, and get it done efficiently," type of guy." This relates to the INFP's Inferior since Te is the inferior of INFP. I believe it is also the primary shadow function of the INTP though I know most discount the shadow aspect.

More on why an INFP:
Overall, I am INFP because (using wikipedia to make it easier):
'I care deeply about the inner life of a few special persons and about several favourite causes. I believe in healing the conflicts of those to whom I feel this connection and to make peace within those groups with which I have an affinity. I am an idealist with a strong personal sense of right and wrong and view the world through the lense of ethics, morality, etc. I also had, and still have (albeit to a lesser degree) a vivid imagination and often daydream of better scenarios than what I find myself in now.
However, resulting from my Ti development/side, I "prize autonomy in themselves and others and am impatient with the bureaucracy, rigid hierarchies, and the politics prevalent in many professions. I have little regard for titles and badges, which I find unnecessary/unjustified. I view inefficient authority as hindering the uptake of novel ideas and the search for knowledge and accept both people and ideas based on merit, rather than popularity, tradition or authority. I disdain social customs that seem illogical, limit autonomy, or that obstruct the pursuit of ideas and knowledge. Most importantly, as stated, my Ti seeks to give credibility (rationale/logical) to my values/belief/ethical world view.


Enneagram Support: On a side note, after taking several Enneagram tests (though I don't know how accurate the theory is behind that), I am consistently a four with a wing of 5). That seems to match an INFP with a strong Ti, which sounds like what some call an INxP (though I know it is INFP with strong Ti). At the risk of stirring up controversy, I can see why Big Apple Pi would see INTP as a potential "backup" to my INFP. BA-Pi's views may not be orthodox, they may not even be accurate in a scientific sense(who am I to say), but it does seem to be my reality. This is especially true when people argue that an Enneagram score of 4 lines up with INFP and an Enneagram score of 5 with INTP. Whether you call it INFP+Ti, INxP, INFP with a secondary of INTP, or an Enneagram 4w5, it all points to my overall personality.

Crippli, is this in agreement with what you deduced?

 

[Brontosaurie]

I skipped most of posts on this thread (sorry!), but I voted "No" because of the following:

"Dario Nardi has discovered that people of different personality types don't merely rely on different brain regions -- they use their brains in fundamentally different ways."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGfhQTbcqmA

thank you for this

 

[crippli]

Hello Crippli, thanks for the response. Mine is as follows:

INFP Wins: Based upon my words in the previous post, I am convinced I am an INFP with a higher than normal Ti development. In light of your suggestion to analyze it objectively (detached), I think the following support an INFP+Ti pov:

Why INFP: INFP's have a highly developed value/ethics/belief system that guides us. INFPs are imaginative idealists, guided by their own core values and beliefs.We search for meaning, truth, and have very strong ideals. This all fits in with statements of mine like "Since my beliefs, values, etc. play a major role in my life..." However, the Ti aspect (usually associated with INTP) plays a strong but subservient role in that it seeks to apply logic, rational thought, to my understanding of my core values and beliefs.

Ti never far behind: I have strong intuitive feelings about right and wrong in general, and numerous beliefs/values of mine in particular, but for whatever reason, I cannot trust the gut "feelings"/intuition alone and must (for the Fi "feeling" of peace of mind, use the Ti thinking process to validate/legitimize my thoughts).

INFP Harmony: Keirsey says of the INFP/Idealist "...And their great passion is to heal the conflicts that trouble individuals, or that divide groups, and thus to bring wholeness, or health, to themselves, their loved ones, and their community." This is an Fi trait in that, unlike the Fe, I do not want to seek group harmony by forcing myself to play by the rules of others or to make all of the others play by the established rules of others. Instead, I want to seek harmony based upon ethical, just, and moral rules that are grounded in what i believe to be sound, logical foundations.

Keirsey also states "Healers have a profound sense of idealism that comes from a strong personal sense of right and wrong. They conceive of the world as an ethical, honorable place." This INFP mindset ties-in with my statement "I "Fi" with the individuals who are not integrated into the group due to (1) personal identification with their potential pain/awkwardness and (2) value judgments (since, again, it's not right to leave them standing there). I have little "Fe" need for the *entire* group to get along. If there is disharmony, it doesn't bother me until friends, the weak, the down-trodden, or core causes/beliefs are affected."

Te as the inferior of INFP and the shadow of INTP (Te is greatest under stress).
I wrote "Most of the time, I do not care whether someone agrees with me or not. However, under stress, then I am more likely to care and set out to straighten them out (especially if my vies are mischaracterized --- maybe not the best Te example, but...). My Te also comes into heavy play at work when I feel the need to organize/categorize everything and to solve problems sequentially to get them resolved efficiently. Te even dominates Ti at work as I am consistently the "identify the problem, identify the options, pick the best option, get it done now, and get it done efficiently," type of guy." This relates to the INFP's Inferior since Te is the inferior of INFP. I believe it is also the primary shadow function of the INTP though I know most discount the shadow aspect.

More on why an INFP:
Overall, I am INFP because (using wikipedia to make it easier):
'I care deeply about the inner life of a few special persons and about several favourite causes. I believe in healing the conflicts of those to whom I feel this connection and to make peace within those groups with which I have an affinity. I am an idealist with a strong personal sense of right and wrong and view the world through the lense of ethics, morality, etc. I also had, and still have (albeit to a lesser degree) a vivid imagination and often daydream of better scenarios than what I find myself in now.
However, resulting from my Ti development/side, I "prize autonomy in themselves and others and am impatient with the bureaucracy, rigid hierarchies, and the politics prevalent in many professions. I have little regard for titles and badges, which I find unnecessary/unjustified. I view inefficient authority as hindering the uptake of novel ideas and the search for knowledge and accept both people and ideas based on merit, rather than popularity, tradition or authority. I disdain social customs that seem illogical, limit autonomy, or that obstruct the pursuit of ideas and knowledge. Most importantly, as stated, my Ti seeks to give credibility (rationale/logical) to my values/belief/ethical world view.


Enneagram Support: On a side note, after taking several Enneagram tests (though I don't know how accurate the theory is behind that), I am consistently a four with a wing of 5). That seems to match an INFP with a strong Ti, which sounds like what some call an INxP (though I know it is INFP with strong Ti). At the risk of stirring up controversy, I can see why Big Apple Pi would see INTP as a potential "backup" to my INFP. BA-Pi's views may not be orthodox, they may not even be accurate in a scientific sense(who am I to say), but it does seem to be my reality. This is especially true when people argue that an Enneagram score of 4 lines up with INFP and an Enneagram score of 5 with INTP. Whether you call it INFP+Ti, INxP, INFP with a secondary of INTP, or an Enneagram 4w5, it all points to my overall personality.

Crippli, is this in agreement with what you deduced?

Holy cow, that was thorough.
Exactly. As I suspected, my findings would be unnecessary, your level of introversion seems to be high. This post however comes more off as INTP or even INTJ. I get the feeling there is something I'm missing(Shadow Ni). Fi is also a rational function. INFPs as INTPs are both big picture thinkers. So unless one look at a specific case. It might be difficult to seperate. At the end of the day, it's what you think feels comfortable that matters imo, since it is about you.

I'll go with your proposal that INXP is possible. It could make one too introverted though(if comparing to the norm), with dual introverted primary functions. Fi and Ti are also not always clearly defined. Often times they appear similar, only describe different situations. Ex mathematic problem and identity discovery. Would you use both with both tasks?

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

Holy cow, that was thorough.
Exactly. As I suspected, my findings would be unnecessary, your level of introversion seems to be high.

Too high; that is why I used the funnel analogy (slipping down too deep into isolation/introversion). I believe that it is also why a recent enneagram test I took also mentioned my psychological state as being "unhealthy" (it rated my introversion score as being way higher than everything else ranked). I need to work on reconnecting with people. I am not good at shallow connections (hate small talk, empty formalities) and fear that going back to my deeper connections will cause me to (1) lose interest altogether in certain people; (2) lead others to think that I can offer a deeper degree of friendship than is prudent; or (3) tempt me to engage in a deeper relationship than what is right (I rarely interact with women in any social sense or even work-friendly sense; only those with whom I have no attraction whatsoever can I interact with in any normal manner. I do not fear rejection -- I fear interest). But that is my struggle and I will look for ways to address it.

This post however comes more off as INTP or even INTJ. I get the feeling there is something I'm missing(Shadow Ni). Fi is also a rational function. INFPs as INTPs are both big picture thinkers. So unless one look at a specific case. It might be difficult to seperate. At the end of the day, it's what you think feels comfortable that matters imo, since it is about you.

I usually write like an INTP because I try to put my views down logically/sequentially even if the underlying impetus has a predominant feeling/emotional base. The reason that I think I am INFP+Ti and not INTP+Fi is due to my leisurely preferences. I experience frisson easily and often, especially when listening to music or even reading a well-worded passage in a novel. A guy getting piloerections (less feminine than "goosebumps") as often as I do (especially over female vocals) is rare. The music I listen to also tends to have either a very strong message to it (e.g. activist-like) or very strong emotional aspect. I also like aery, ethereal, atmospheric music. I also experience strong emotions far more often than I think the average INTP would. There is a romance side to me that is more developed than in most men that I meet. This gives people an excuse to make comments about me not being the rough and tough type (though I like martial arts, the outdoors, etc.).

I'll go with your proposal that INXP is possible. It could make one too introverted though(if comparing to the norm), with dual introverted primary functions. Fi and Ti are also not always clearly defined. Often times they appear similar, only describe different situations. Ex mathematic problem and identity discovery. Would you use both with both tasks?

INXP is just shorter than INFP+Ti. The maddening aspect is that I slip in and out of modes easily. Alone, I would think more like an INFP though; amongst others, more like an INTP (amongst others includes writing on forums). It's like INTP kicks in when I have to interact with anyone and INFP kicks in when I am alone and can just do my own things (not researching, not debating, not trying to prove anything -- just trying to chill). When stress kicks in, Te does as well, then it adds to the madness. But as a child, I'm confident I was more Fi than Ti. But for the longest time, my Ti has been highly tuned/defined and I am sure it is Ti and not Te. As stated, via numerous tests (professionally given, via books, and also online), I am always at the borderline of NP/NT (usually with an NT edge become I am thinking as I take it). I would say that mathematic would be a Ti mode for me but identity = Fi+Ti (in that order). But my introversion is such that, were it not for my nuclear family, I would likely abstain from interacting with anyone on a social level. That isn't good but it affirms your "too introverted" point.

Again, having gone through the function descriptions, and having read the type descriptions given by this forum, Kiersey's book "Please Understand Me II," the book "Do what you are," Kroeger's "Type Talk," humanmetrics, typelogic, personalitycafe, etc., I'm pretty content with just saying INFP+Ti, INXP, 4w5, etc. since all accurately describe me. Now that I have rationally understood where I stand (in keeping with my INTP/Ti side), my goal is to get back on a healthier track. Personally, I think these type discussions have already helped and given me a basis to look into ways to stop sliding into / break free from the grip of uber-introversion. Someone on one of the MBTI sites stated that an INXP could not exist because if they did they would be insane. I get where they were coming from. The goal is to not let it get that far. If I can balance out the introversion aspect -- things would likely be much better.

 

[crippli]

Too high; that is why I used the funnel analogy (slipping down too deep into isolation/introversion). I believe that it is also why a recent enneagram test I took also mentioned my psychological state as being "unhealthy" (it rated my introversion score as being way higher than everything else ranked). I need to work on reconnecting with people. I am not good at shallow connections (hate small talk, empty formalities) and fear that going back to my deeper connections will cause me to (1) lose interest altogether in certain people; (2) lead others to think that I can offer a deeper degree of friendship than is prudent; or (3) tempt me to engage in a deeper relationship than what is right (I rarely interact with women in any social sense or even work-friendly sense; only those with whom I have no attraction whatsoever can I interact with in any normal manner. I do not fear rejection -- I fear interest). But that is my struggle and I will look for ways to address it.



I usually write like an INTP because I try to put my views down logically/sequentially even if the underlying impetus has a predominant feeling/emotional base. The reason that I think I am INFP+Ti and not INTP+Fi is due to my leisurely preferences. I experience frisson easily and often, especially when listening to music or even reading a well-worded passage in a novel. A guy getting piloerections (less feminine than "goosebumps") as often as I do (especially over female vocals) is rare. The music I listen to also tends to have either a very strong message to it (e.g. activist-like) or very strong emotional aspect. I also like aery, ethereal, atmospheric music. I also experience strong emotions far more often than I think the average INTP would. There is a romance side to me that is more developed than in most men that I meet. This gives people an excuse to make comments about me not being the rough and tough type (though I like martial arts, the outdoors, etc.).



INXP is just shorter than INFP+Ti. The maddening aspect is that I slip in and out of modes easily. Alone, I would think more like an INFP though; amongst others, more like an INTP (amongst others includes writing on forums). It's like INTP kicks in when I have to interact with anyone and INFP kicks in when I am alone and can just do my own things (not researching, not debating, not trying to prove anything -- just trying to chill). When stress kicks in, Te does as well, then it adds to the madness. But as a child, I'm confident I was more Fi than Ti. But for the longest time, my Ti has been highly tuned/defined and I am sure it is Ti and not Te. As stated, via numerous tests (professionally given, via books, and also online), I am always at the borderline of NP/NT (usually with an NT edge become I am thinking as I take it). I would say that mathematic would be a Ti mode for me but identity = Fi+Ti (in that order). But my introversion is such that, were it not for my nuclear family, I would likely abstain from interacting with anyone on a social level. That isn't good but it affirms your "too introverted" point.

Again, having gone through the function descriptions, and having read the type descriptions given by this forum, Kiersey's book "Please Understand Me II," the book "Do what you are," Kroeger's "Type Talk," humanmetrics, typelogic, personalitycafe, etc., I'm pretty content with just saying INFP+Ti, INXP, 4w5, etc. since all accurately describe me. Now that I have rationally understood where I stand (in keeping with my INTP/Ti side), my goal is to get back on a healthier track. Personally, I think these type discussions have already helped and given me a basis to look into ways to stop sliding into / break free from the grip of uber-introversion. Someone on one of the MBTI sites stated that an INXP could not exist because if they did they would be insane. I get where they were coming from. The goal is to not let it get that far. If I can balance out the introversion aspect -- things would likely be much better.

Great. Sounds good to me. And please tell us how it goes.

Jung believed that one could not operate on dual introversion processing. One side of the dichotomy had to be in the unconsciousness. Maybe that someone on one of the MBTI sites got it right(and Jung). That madness is insured if too much is unlocked.

It is interesting though. I have had thoughts in these lines. That mental disorder could basically be that one is just operating on functions that are below, and so causes problems. Schizophrenia could maybe be explained this way. A neurologist will say that wiring is messed up. So an external stimuli causes voices in the head, signals doesn't go where they should.

There is a thread around here, where many people have this occur just around slipping into sleep/dreams. And slipping into dreams, could be said to slip into unconsciousness. See. there is a link here. If one access the functions in the unconsciousness while awake. That could make the brain send signals other places, and cause insanity(at least in the eyes of others). I would believe it could be controlled. But new theories and understanding of the mechanism would have to be worked out.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

Great. Sounds good to me. And please tell us how it goes.

Jung believed that one could not operate on dual introversion processing. One side of the dichotomy had to be in the unconsciousness. Maybe that someone on one of the MBTI sites got it right(and Jung). That madness is insured if too much is unlocked.

It is interesting though. I have had thoughts in these lines. That mental disorder could basically be that one is just operating on functions that are below, and so causes problems. Schizophrenia could maybe be explained this way. A neurologist will say that wiring is messed up. So an external stimuli causes voices in the head, signals doesn't go where they should.

There is a thread around here, where many people have this occur just around slipping into sleep/dreams. And slipping into dreams, could be said to slip into unconsciousness. See. there is a link here. If one access the functions in the unconsciousness while awake. That could make the brain send signals other places, and cause insanity(at least in the eyes of others). I would believe it could be controlled. But new theories and understanding of the mechanism would have to be worked out.

You make me wonder whether my past self-experiments on tapping into the unconscious (using acoustic/wave manipulation, NLP, advanced relaxation techniques, etc.) could have played a role but I may never know.

The cool thing is that this process on the forum alone has helped me. I think writing about it, thinking about it, discussing it, putting it out there in an anonymous fashion, and getting feedback was truly cathartic (especially since I do not discuss these matters in any depth in "real life"). I found some really good suggestions (Enneagram-related) about healthy steps 4w5 Bohemians can take to get out of their downward spiral / rut. So I am trying that -- focus on more creative outlets like writing, poetry, maybe even painting. The number one thing for me is to try to redirect and not be constantly in my head, "imagining" how things should be, or could have been. But again, thanks to you and everyone, because it has helped. Hope others in my boat can stumble across this and benefit.

 

[crippli]

You make me wonder whether my past self-experiments on tapping into the unconscious (using acoustic/wave manipulation, NLP, advanced relaxation techniques, etc.) could have played a role but I may never know.

Can you explain this further? My problem now, is that I would like to go the opposite direction of what you advice, dig into these techniques. As I am impressed by your level of introversion, and want to gain some of this, to see if I can reach that same awareness. I recognize much of what you write, I suspect I switch back and fourth even more. So I am a little starved to get more out of this. But on the other hand you seem to not have found the quest fruitful? And now advice to look outwards?

The cool thing is that this process on the forum alone has helped me. I think writing about it, thinking about it, discussing it, putting it out there in an anonymous fashion, and getting feedback was truly cathartic (especially since I do not discuss these matters in any depth in "real life"). I found some really good suggestions (Enneagram-related) about healthy steps 4w5 Bohemians can take to get out of their downward spiral / rut. So I am trying that -- focus on more creative outlets like writing, poetry, maybe even painting. The number one thing for me is to try to redirect and not be constantly in my head, "imagining" how things should be, or could have been. But again, thanks to you and everyone, because it has helped. Hope others in my boat can stumble across this and benefit.

I've certainly learned some cool words during this conversation. But to get to the context of the matter will require more. And to extract the therapeutic lesson, may come even much harder. I also don't feel like we are quite finished with the INFP+Ti type. This isn't INXP in my opinion. I would like to have this sorted out. Didn't BAP have work in progress on the matter?

I also got confused at some point. I thought I had the answer in the beginning to think more simply on the matter. But I feel like we have sort of dug ourself down into an unsolvable maze again(as redirecting outwards may not be so easy). With the functions. I brought some questions about their validity, how FI and Ti, can be the same function. But the idea have not been challenged. In that case, what you have done is to have reached the truth of the matter, in recognizing that you use both equally well. And maybe the things you have found dissonance with are just those things, and can be improved on their own.

Well. It's been helpful. I want more though.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

Can you explain this further? My problem now, is that I would like to go the opposite direction of what you advice, dig into these techniques. As I am impressed by your level of introversion, and want to gain some of this, to see if I can reach that same awareness. I recognize much of what you write, I suspect I switch back and fourth even more. So I am a little starved to get more out of this. But on the other hand you seem to not have found the quest fruitful? And now advice to look outwards?

Hello Crippli, hope all is well.

Regarding your request for more insight as to my previous words, my introversion (though always dominant) hasn't always been this great. Truth be told, I brought it upon myself -- my problems result from my actions. Starting off with the lesser cause first, I became very curious about further exploring the mind and used a combo of meditation, deep relaxation, and especially sound to play with brainwaves to help induce altered states (this was well before binaural beats become a fad). Far more easily than anyone else I know, I can enter into such a state when I feel the need (I rarely feel the need anymore given my history). As a result however, music has an abnormal effect on me. I joke that I am a frisson/dopamine addict but it really isn't a joke. I use music the same way many use sex and drugs. A well hit note for me, or an unusual "drop" in an atmospheric, ethereal, or liquid type song, or an intentional trip effect (as with the intro, specifically, to this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iUuWK0jgHk) has an intensity of effect on me that I do not see with anyone else. If I listen to certain genres long enough (with eyes closed) vivid images and colours develop. This is unusual because I have a marked inability to visualize (or remember visually) anything. My memories are more like a few photo snapshots than watching a video replay. I cannot visualize something like a green apple on a blue plate. With music, especially after more than a 1/2hr or so, auto-generated, highly-detailed images appear on their own. Same with really bright, vibrant, colours. It isn't the same, but it is like what some describe with synesthesia, except my eyes have to be closed most of the time to see it. However, this playing with waves and sounds (and other mind-based techniques), I think, has made it more easy for me to get into negative emotional states. I can describe more if need be another time. It has definitely led to a dependence on music to "correct" my mood.

What did me in was NLP however. I became quite good at it and found myself quickly becoming "popular;" which was odd because growing up I was definitely not the popular type. I was developing really intense relationships as a result and even found myself "experimenting" with people -- basically, playing with emotions because I could not believe how "well" this was "working." I, the introvert, was walking up to random women and starting conversations and inviting (and going) out to dinner on a whim (while in a relationship). I got to the point wherein I was getting hit on more in a few months than I did most of my life. It also got to the point wherein those who were the "victims" of my experimentation were returning interest to a far deeper degree than I would have ever expected. I soon found myself in a situation wherein I was doing these things instinctually and couldn't "not do it." I then found that I was either turned off altogether by a few because of the ease of manipulation and the lack of perceived depth when interacting with them (I was becoming arrogant). A few others (those with real depth of thought or feeling) interested me greatly and this led me down the slippery road of temptation (and beyond sadly). Finally, others felt deceived as if I led them on and they ended up really disliking me as a result. A few I did lead on, but most of the time I really did not mean to, but the connection level was strong and I could see how it gave the wrong impression. Again, most of the time, this was not consciously intentional.

Then I got a glimpse of my (then current) self. This person that I became (in the span of a year or less) was not me; it wasn't true to who and what I was -- but it was "effective." Yet, I was so disgusted with myself, mostly over how I hurt people (one person in particular), but also the mental aspect of how I was dehumanizing them in my mind, leading some on, engaging in things I should not have been doing, etc. I was so put off by me that I distanced myself from everyone. Plus I was burning out; popularity for an introvert can be draining and I was over-extending myself socially. What started off as an emotional high became a cause of significant depression.

It became too much; guilt was building up. I had no idea who the authentic "me" was. I often wondered - was I liked because I was likeable or was I liked because I manipulated people into liking me. Was the connection real or was it induced by what I learned and implemented. Would I lead someone on again, or (just as bad if not worse), would I give into their returned affections (which would make me all the more the creep that I knew I was becoming). I hated myself, distrusted myself, and thought it better to just disengage for a while. Sadly, that while lasted for over a decade. As I disengaged, I dived headlong into those things that were important to me -- my values, ethics, beliefs, etc. (basically, everything I abandoned for that season). But prolonged isolation and focus on such things started to make it hard for me to relate to those whoe were not like-minded. This reinforced my isolation and renewed more deeply my introversion. I did not want to hang out with anyone because so many were into scenes (bars, clubs, dinner and other parties, etc.) that would make it easier for me to slip back into my old "new" habits. Even though I believed that I would not -- I was too afraid of becoming "that person" again. It became safer in my own house, in my own mind. But again, who is to fault for this but me? Self-payback can be a b$^%$.

I've certainly learned some cool words during this conversation. But to get to the context of the matter will require more. And to extract the therapeutic lesson, may come even much harder. I also don't feel like we are quite finished with the INFP+Ti type. This isn't INXP in my opinion. I would like to have this sorted out. Didn't BAP have work in progress on the matter?

If my scores on numerous tests are borderline INTP/INFP, and if my Fi and Ti are really strong per the numerous function descriptions I read, then I cannot tell the difference between someone who is INFP with a high Ti and an IN(F/T)P which equals an INxP. Moreover, the Enneagram 4 corresponds to an INFP and the Enneagram 5 to an INTP which would seem to support both an INFP+Ti and an INxP description.

Perhaps, if you told me what you think the difference is, I can better come to terms.

I also got confused at some point. I thought I had the answer in the beginning to think more simply on the matter. But I feel like we have sort of dug ourself down into an unsolvable maze again(as redirecting outwards may not be so easy). With the functions. I brought some questions about their validity, how FI and Ti, can be the same function. But the idea have not been challenged. In that case, what you have done is to have reached the truth of the matter, in recognizing that you use both equally well. And maybe the things you have found dissonance with are just those things, and can be improved on their own].

When I read of Fi and Ti they seem quite distinct despite many shared attributes. Maybe some of my Ti is learned and not natural -- I do not know. But the whole 4x5 along with everything else reinforces my belief that I am not just dealing with the Te of INFP or the Fe of INTP -- I am pretty positive it is both Ti and Fi and I have seen several others on the net stating the same thing. Ti+Fi definitely seems to be common with Enneagram Bohemian types... but again, would I have tested as such before I made the mistakes I made? Part of me says yes because even well before then I was at the INFP/INTP borderline. However, I think that my introversion level went up significantly.

Well. It's been helpful. I want more though.

Hope I didn't give you too much more -- or more of that which you did not want.

 

[BigApplePi]

Re: Attempt @ Clarity of a Complex Topic

@Absurdity, @Cherry Cola just in case, @Benjamin Sainclair because you are uncertain.
I will try for another rephrasing.

Originally Posted by BigApplePi
I'm claiming when an INTP = Ti Ne Si Fe gets into an Fi state, the stack gets wacked. The INTP loses his INTP characteristics and behaves like a lead Fi = IxFP.

Or they just behaves like an INTP using an unfamiliar function.

I will agree with that and will say a person has a primary temperament. That is the temperament which permeates their whole being.

The difference between an INTP using Fi and an IXFP using Fi is that the IXFP is infinitely more adept and comfortable with Fi than the INTP is. To say that the INTP behaves like an IXFP lead is to say that the INTP suddenly gains proficiency with an alien function.

I will agree with that also. The INTP does not become an IxFP. What he/she does is one of two things:

(1) Stumbles upon Fi and awkwardly starts using it.
(2) Developes Fi not without INTP approval and intent, and not without using INTP awareness and skills*. But Fi nontheless. My claim is a snapshot of their behavior will look like IxFP. This is useful for understanding their odd INTP behavior and behavior in general.

Assuming I myself am an INTP, I can give personal examples where I've emulated other types. I think I've outlined exactly that in a message on this forum somewhere where I've emulated INFP, INTJ** and ENTP. By INFP, INTJ and ENTP I don't mean I've changed my entire temperament and become one of those ... just emulated their behavior for a short period.

Note that when we define temperament, that is supposed to be behavior over a long period. That would be impossible to sustain unless one is modestly at ease with that temperament. Let me take that back. If one sustains a temperament that is not theirs underneath, they will be uncomfortable with it possibly to the point of neurosis.

*Sorry for the double negatives but removing them would be less accurate.

**I can't resist giving this example. If you are an INTJ, you know INTJ = Ni Te Fi Se. This message itself is an example of INTJ behavior, but in a primary INTP. I have an intuition (Ni) that I am right about this this theory. I put it out there into the external world as if it were fact (Te). I feel internally I am correct (Fi). The previous sentence is to be remembered (Se).

Yet I remain an INTP because I'm not comfortable with this. I take little pride in it unless approved, don't like disagreements, and would prefer social harmony and comfort. Without you and others approval, my theory is kaput objectively. Yet my Ti is strong enough that I'm willing to pay the price of pushing it. My T which as a judgmental trait is strong enough to put the J into INTJ. My Ne says if I don't succeed here I can theoretically take it to another place for different phrasing.

 

[crippli]

Spoiler

Hello Crippli, hope all is well.

Regarding your request for more insight as to my previous words, my introversion (though always dominant) hasn't always been this great. Truth be told, I brought it upon myself -- my problems result from my actions. Starting off with the lesser cause first, I became very curious about further exploring the mind and used a combo of meditation, deep relaxation, and especially sound to play with brainwaves to help induce altered states (this was well before binaural beats become a fad). Far more easily than anyone else I know, I can enter into such a state when I feel the need (I rarely feel the need anymore given my history). As a result however, music has an abnormal effect on me. I joke that I am a frisson/dopamine addict but it really isn't a joke. I use music the same way many use sex and drugs. A well hit note for me, or an unusual "drop" in an atmospheric, ethereal, or liquid type song, or an intentional trip effect (as with the intro, specifically, to this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iUuWK0jgHk) has an intensity of effect on me that I do not see with anyone else. If I listen to certain genres long enough (with eyes closed) vivid images and colours develop. This is unusual because I have a marked inability to visualize (or remember visually) anything. My memories are more like a few photo snapshots than watching a video replay. I cannot visualize something like a green apple on a blue plate. With music, especially after more than a 1/2hr or so, auto-generated, highly-detailed images appear on their own. Same with really bright, vibrant, colours. It isn't the same, but it is like what some describe with synesthesia, except my eyes have to be closed most of the time to see it. However, this playing with waves and sounds (and other mind-based techniques), I think, has made it more easy for me to get into negative emotional states. I can describe more if need be another time. It has definitely led to a dependence on music to "correct" my mood.

What did me in was NLP however. I became quite good at it and found myself quickly becoming "popular;" which was odd because growing up I was definitely not the popular type. I was developing really intense relationships as a result and even found myself "experimenting" with people -- basically, playing with emotions because I could not believe how "well" this was "working." I, the introvert, was walking up to random women and starting conversations and inviting (and going) out to dinner on a whim (while in a relationship). I got to the point wherein I was getting hit on more in a few months than I did most of my life. It also got to the point wherein those who were the "victims" of my experimentation were returning interest to a far deeper degree than I would have ever expected. I soon found myself in a situation wherein I was doing these things instinctually and couldn't "not do it." I then found that I was either turned off altogether by a few because of the ease of manipulation and the lack of perceived depth when interacting with them (I was becoming arrogant). A few others (those with real depth of thought or feeling) interested me greatly and this led me down the slippery road of temptation (and beyond sadly). Finally, others felt deceived as if I led them on and they ended up really disliking me as a result. A few I did lead on, but most of the time I really did not mean to, but the connection level was strong and I could see how it gave the wrong impression. Again, most of the time, this was not consciously intentional.

Then I got a glimpse of my (then current) self. This person that I became (in the span of a year or less) was not me; it wasn't true to who and what I was -- but it was "effective." Yet, I was so disgusted with myself, mostly over how I hurt people (one person in particular), but also the mental aspect of how I was dehumanizing them in my mind, leading some on, engaging in things I should not have been doing, etc. I was so put off by me that I distanced myself from everyone. Plus I was burning out; popularity for an introvert can be draining and I was over-extending myself socially. What started off as an emotional high became a cause of significant depression.

It became too much; guilt was building up. I had no idea who the authentic "me" was. I often wondered - was I liked because I was likeable or was I liked because I manipulated people into liking me. Was the connection real or was it induced by what I learned and implemented. Would I lead someone on again, or (just as bad if not worse), would I give into their returned affections (which would make me all the more the creep that I knew I was becoming). I hated myself, distrusted myself, and thought it better to just disengage for a while. Sadly, that while lasted for over a decade. As I disengaged, I dived headlong into those things that were important to me -- my values, ethics, beliefs, etc. (basically, everything I abandoned for that season). But prolonged isolation and focus on such things started to make it hard for me to relate to those whoe were not like-minded. This reinforced my isolation and renewed more deeply my introversion. I did not want to hang out with anyone because so many were into scenes (bars, clubs, dinner and other parties, etc.) that would make it easier for me to slip back into my old "new" habits. Even though I believed that I would not -- I was too afraid of becoming "that person" again. It became safer in my own house, in my own mind. But again, who is to fault for this but me? Self-payback can be a b$^%$.



If my scores on numerous tests are borderline INTP/INFP, and if my Fi and Ti are really strong per the numerous function descriptions I read, then I cannot tell the difference between someone who is INFP with a high Ti and an IN(F/T)P which equals an INxP. Moreover, the Enneagram 4 corresponds to an INFP and the Enneagram 5 to an INTP which would seem to support both an INFP+Ti and an INxP description.

Perhaps, if you told me what you think the difference is, I can better come to terms.

When I read of Fi and Ti they seem quite distinct despite many shared attributes. Maybe some of my Ti is learned and not natural -- I do not know. But the whole 4x5 along with everything else reinforces my belief that I am not just dealing with the Te of INFP or the Fe of INTP -- I am pretty positive it is both Ti and Fi and I have seen several others on the net stating the same thing. Ti+Fi definitely seems to be common with Enneagram Bohemian types... but again, would I have tested as such before I made the mistakes I made? Part of me says yes because even well before then I was at the INFP/INTP borderline. However, I think that my introversion level went up significantly.



Hope I didn't give you too much more -- or more of that which you did not want.

I'm putting the quote in spoiler, just so it's clear what I'm replying too.

It's normal. I presume that is well. Not too much information. About the right amount, unfortunately I'm not as literate. I must look up those techniques. The NLP was new, and interesting from a quick glimpse. I will have to see if I find a book on this.

Overall, I have the feeling you set very high standard. And perhaps these other people wasn't as exploited as you think. I've felt the same on occasion, but I suspect it's more my imagination, and not overly representative for reality. Such situations are complicated, and oftentimes depends on perspective.

I'll look into the NLP and see what it is about. Thanks for the tip.

But I'm not seeing so much Fi here. It's almost textbook INTP for me now. Ti and Fe, with Ne and Si. But maybe I'm mixing things up. Don't know, thought you might want to know.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

It's normal. I presume that is well. Not too much information. About the right amount, unfortunately I'm not as literate. I must look up those techniques. The NLP was new, and interesting from a quick glimpse. I will have to see if I find a book on this.

Be careful with NLP; many who are into it are into "Magick" (as opposed to magic) -- to some it is nigh synonymous. It is basically the use of tone, words, body language, etc. to manipulate your own mind and the mind of others. Many are skeptical of it but I'm not -- it can be quite powerful, especially relating to state (trance) inducement, rapport building, etc. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone except for possibly personal (internal) use - and even then...

Overall, I have the feeling you set very high standard.

Too high according to those who know me. Some argue that my expectations of myself, in light of my values, are too high and destined to cause me problems. I'm trying to remain aware of this and "lighten up."

And perhaps these other people wasn't as exploited as you think. I've felt the same on occasion, but I suspect it's more my imagination, and not overly representative for reality. Such situations are complicated, and oftentimes depends on perspective.

I could be overblowing it; I've been told many times that my conscience is over-sensitive (hence the high levels of guilt I experience). However, when people relay their thoughts about how they felt betrayed / played, and when smiles turn to frowns, then I know it isn't all in my mind. Now, I'm not saying it was common -- it wasn't like I was some big time player. But if you hurt people you care about, it really sucks even if the numbers aren't all that high. It then goes against my 'too-high' standards and I internalize it. Again, working on both not being too extreme and not doing the wrong things.

I'll look into the NLP and see what it is about. Thanks for the tip.

There are 'trick' mechanisms, shortcuts, blind spots, in the human psyche. The ability to take advantage of these things is dangerous. It is what con men and "players" do best. I would advise avoiding it. If you can't/won't, just remember the importance of each individual, the need to help and not harm. It can be a slippery slope. I know another man who abused it with very negative results for someone he loved. Can't/won't go into details since it wasn't my life but he would likewise tell you that it can engender this wicked sense of power, control. It's really ugly if abused and it gets easier and easier to abuse. It can devastate others.

As for the less personal accounts, research the views many have of Mr. Bandler, one of the founders of NLP. He isn't the only one (amongst the NLP experts) despised by many.

But I'm not seeing so much Fi here. It's almost textbook INTP for me now. Ti and Fe, with Ne and Si. But maybe I'm mixing things up. Don't know, thought you might want to know.

I understand what you mean. I still wonder "am I an INFP+Ti, or an INTP+Fi, or just an INTP, or an INxP, etc. -- again, I can no longer tell. But google 4xw Bohemian and note how many of them either ID as INxP or note a high Ti while being an INFP. For me, I just see myself as someone with high Ti, likely high Fi, and a fairly well developed Te. Right now, dealing with functions is easier than with types -- but I would still like to determine specifically -- if that's even possible. I just took another test (new one I never encountered before which is becoming rare) and it typed me as an INFP instead of the usual borderline INTP. So for whatever reason, the results keep oscillating between, or coming out borderline for either, INFP and INTP. It is a mystery to me.