Beyond The Brain?

[Da Blob]

Cognition is embodied when it is deeply dependent upon features of the physical body of an agent, that is, when aspects of the agent's body beyond the brain play a significant causal or physically constitutive role in cognitive processing.

In general, dominant views in the philosophy of mind and cognitive science have considered the body as peripheral to understanding the nature of mind and cognition. Proponents of embodied cognitive science view this as a serious mistake. Sometimes the nature of the dependence of cognition on the body is quite unexpected, and suggests new ways of conceptualizing and exploring the mechanics of cognitive processing.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/embodied-cognition/

Hmm! the mind/body issue seen in a different light.

My first reaction is that the distinction between brain and body is arbitrary - yet I know it is a bit more complicated than that (?)

 

[nanook]

a coherent separate self is illusion. everything is the world of form is brahman, maya being perspectives on brahman, perspectives (object-representations) being form, being brahman. intelligence is not limited to the brain, but extends to the body and beyond. everything has two sides to it, objective and subjective: you can look at a pattern of intelligence using a technical device, seeing it's shape, speed, volume without understanding it, or you can look at it trough immediate awareness and experience it's meaning, while being out of touch with the objective side of it. this understanding of reality, which is the integral view, is called intraphysical, as opposed to the classical metaphysical concept, which used to consider the subjective to be not aligned side by side with the physical, but miraculously on top of it. the important point is, that there can't be reduction of one side to the other side. the intraphyiscal view does also not equal the materialist view, in how the latter would classically and irrationally deny both any possible life after death and any possible intelligence beyond the body, such as telepathy - this is, because the intraphysical view takes into consideration the fact, that we have seen little of the objective world with it's 11 dimensions and it doesn't blindly assume, that subjective intelligence equals (nothing but) any current understanding of what for instance 'a bunch of synapses and so called electricity' can do. all that we can observe is that the currently visible part of objective reality, 'the bunch of synapses and so called electricity', has a synchronous part in the process of intelligence, which may likely run deeper into the 11 dimensions, on the objective side, just like the subjective side of the same process of intelligence may run deeper than conscious language and conscious images. spirituality, the science of making repeatable experiments in your own consciousness, knew for ages about vast subtle realms and the formless, and on the other side of the fence modern objective science is beginning to discover vast fractal like infinities beyond comprehension. there is no conflict between the method of objective science and the method of subjective science, but there is conflict between wordlviews, which always correlate with the individual self, predominantly it's development, but no possible worldview is nothing but the result of a scientific method, be it subjective or objective, no matter how much the individual likes to identify with the method. for the most part, a worldview just grows, like appletrees.

 

[Cognisant]

*weary sigh*

This is a lot like the homunculus thing, those paragraphs really don't mean what you think they do, "embodied" is not being used in some lofty metaphysical sense rather embodied cognition is the perspective that the mind is not something that can exist in of itself independent of an external reality, that doesn't sound good to your ears I bet. To make this easier to understand I'll use your parallel mirrors thing (in a use & discard way), like the classic Zen question whether the unheard falling of a tree in the forest suggests it didn't make a sound, if your parallel mirrors have no light to reflect between them how could a mind exist between them?

I still wonder how a mind could exist between them at all, but whatever, no point keeping a used condom, let's keep the focus on what embodied cognition is.

Traditionally AI researches sought to understand intelligence as a thing in of itself, as if they could simply write a sentient mind into existence with the right line of code, such inspiring hubris, this way of thinking gave rise to the procedural AI we all know well, the bad guys in every video game, behaviourally sophisticated yet fatally limited, clockwork made of ones and zeros.

Procedural AI doesn't think, it does, it does simply what its code tells it to do like a character in a book, and you can write in all sorts of instructions to have the reader flip back and forth between pages based upon external factors, and that gives it the illusion of intelligence but really that intelligence is only the will of the programmer, the writer who wrote the book, a book that will never change unless someone changes it.

Some procedural AIs have the ability to learn to some extent, philosophically this makes it very hard for me to classify them, the line between what is a person and what is not is actually a vast expanse of ambiguity, I spend much of my time here agonising over my principles, I digress.

Procedural AIs react to external factors and learn through sensors, without this input having a mind is moot, so obviously one simply can't make a thinking computer, it needs to learn to be about to grow and a reality to learn about (a simulated body still counts as embodiment) and if you want it to think in terms of self then it needs a body through which to interact with and perceive reality so that it may perceive itself through its own actions.

Having extensively studied the human neural net researchers have developed various simulations of it and there's an emerging field of people who utilise the principles of the human analog neural net to design digital equivalents, I call mine a node net

This new generation of AI is based upon the foundation of embodied cognition and as such isn't designed as something the coder tells what to do in their coder, rather the goal now is to try and distance ourselves as much as possible from the processes taking place, to have the AI learn for itself, to build vast conceptual structures of their own from the most basic parts, like we do,

You don't see it on the news but incredible progress is being made every single day, it's a very exciting time to be alive, personally I don't predict a singularity as such, but when all the factors line up the automation revolution will be upon us, things are going to happen, incredible things.

 

[BigApplePi]

Just look at the INTP Cognitive Functions:

Ti - internal stuff. Let the brain preside.
Ne - If the brain is pulling together external surroundings, what is acknowledging external surroundings?
Si - this is the body reporting to the brain.
Fe - feelings about externality. Is the brain subordinate or not?

 

[Da Blob]

The point that was of interest to me is that the fact that the body (defined as the human nervous system beyond the brain) has not gotten much attention as a major component in the dynamic system that is the human experience.

If one thinks of the body as the information gathering/distribution component as somehow being different or 'separate' from the brain as the information processing component, does that not illustrate an inherent dualism? A dualism significantly different that the traditional forms of dualism and one that can be discussed as an issue in A. I. development.

The physics and philosophies of the human nervous system, 'beyond the brain' is new territory (?) Particularly in the context of Systems Theory and Sensori-motor intelligence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget's_theory_of_cognitive_development

[bimgx=500]http://intpforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1760&stc=1&d=1341003193[/bimgx]

 

[MichiganJFrog]

Then there's the whole "second brain" thing.

 

[BigApplePi]

The point that was of interest to me is that the fact that the body (defined as the human nervous system beyond the brain) has not gotten much attention as a major component in the dynamic system that is the human experience.

If one thinks of the body as the information gathering/distribution component as somehow being different or 'separate' from the brain as the information processing component, does that not illustrate an inherent dualism? A dualism significantly different that the traditional forms of dualism and one that can be discussed as an issue in A. I. development.

The physics and philosophies of the human nervous system, 'beyond the brain' is new territory (?) Particularly in the context of Systems Theory and Sensori-motor intelligence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget's_theory_of_cognitive_development

[bimgx=500]http://intpforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1760&stc=1&d=1341003193[/bimgx]

I'm sorry. I did not read the Piaget link but should. Perhaps a reply to him, paragraph by paragraph is merited, but that remains to be done.

I do not and never have believed in a mind-body dualism in a religious sense, though that doesn't mean it isn't merited and I am actually off-base. My impression is the mind-body is a highly integrated system. It's just that it is very easy to cut off the head as the guillotiners have readily presented to us and make a dualism out of the parts.

The way I see it, and this is an approximation, is the body feeds and builds the brain, exceptions being that the brain has body-like characteristics on its own, but not enough to function independently anymore than the liver can. There is a give and take, constant feedback between the two. Both need each other. There is no independence.

 

[Black Rose]

If one takes the view of functionalism then what happens in a network is a process of communication as whole becoming what it is by how it operates. If I am the sum total of the processes of my atoms I can classify myself as a virtual software mind embedded in a hardware body. Were we to create such minds in silica computers on the same premise they could be copied and any given instance of a copy is the same form of identity only with a different frame of reference. Were the conditions set just right as a information system a mind could reappear by means of re-initializing from the beginning the initial seed process from which it came.

If a quantum computer were used to reassemble the quantum states of past histories. Than by creating a superposition where only the histories associated with ones initial frames of reference were found by elimination of improbability states then collapse into one probability one would be transported to the future after death by recreation of the past. As only the frame of reference has changed and function remains you can never die given that your quantum state always reapers just as patterns always reappear by similar rules of a cellular automaton in the multiverse.

Seeing that the technological singularity will happen this century the past will be recreated on quantum computers. So the dead will be copied to the future. Nick Bostrom predicts this has already occurred and we are in such a situation.

 

[Da Blob]

Perhaps we are surrounded by ghosts and it is they who populate our dreams? I've always wondered where all of the strangers in my dreams come from.

concerning Piaget, BAP, While I do recommend that every read "The Essential Piaget", I will try to briefly state the issue that came into my mind, with the phrase 'beyond the brain'.

In first stage of cognitive development, there are six substages, each a form of feedback loop and perhaps units of thought in that regard.

http://www.pearsonhighered.com/ormrod/humanlearning/pdf files/4_PiagetSensorimotor.pdf

However, it is only the last stage that is considered to be thought by some, because of the use of words and other symbols. The previous 5 can be seen as being connected to the other three scales of the MBTI or something else.

Stage six - I think therefore I am
Stage five - me explores and experiments, therefore me is an agent of change
stage four - me observes variance of effects, therefore me is a cause
stage three - me moves, therefore me is separate from the world
stage two - me repeats actions, therefore me is a controller
stage one - me reacts, therefore me is an actor

with the exception of stage one these are voluntary actions and exercises of free will, used to organize both the 'body' and the 'not-body' environment and that distinction between that which is subject to the will and that which is not, is a basic duality, much more primitive and foundational, that the duality expressed in the words of a two year old, "I think therefore I am".

 

[nanook]

the voices told me to link this grafic

http://spinbitz.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/coreembryon1.jpg

i have to delegate the task of recognizing it's hypothetical awesomeness, since i am currently absent minded and thus haven't read the text yet.
I stumbled over the image by chance. (i don't stumble a lot, but when i do, i stumble upon secrets of the universe)

source is http://spinbitz.net

 

[Da Blob]

the voices told me to link this grafic

http://spinbitz.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/coreembryon1.jpg

i have to delegate the task of recognizing it's hypothetical awesomeness, since i am currently absent minded and thus haven't read the text yet.
I stumbled over the image by chance. (i don't stumble allot, but when i do, i stumble upon secrets of the universe)

source is http://spinbitz.net

Silent Voices Sound The Same - so fools hear only one, that they claim as their own.

This for that, tit for tat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_wavelet_transform

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelet_transform



EDIT: free ebook > new thread?
http://www.lulu.com/shop/joel-morri...iricism-free-ebook/ebook/product-1401087.html

 

[BigApplePi]

How the Brain Works: Hierarchy

In first stage of cognitive development,

there are six substages, each a form of feedback loop and perhaps units of thought in that regard.

Stage six - I think therefore I am
Stage five - me explores and experiments, therefore me is an agent of change
stage four - me observes variance of effects, therefore me is a cause
stage three - me moves, therefore me is separate from the world
stage two - me repeats actions, therefore me is a controller
stage one - me reacts, therefore me is an actor

Excellent. This is exactly what I was looking for Da Blob. Piaget has outlined how the human brain gets off the ground floor. Let's try understanding this using his sub-packages. I will make interpretations from the link http://www.pearsonhighered.com/ormrod/humanlearning/pdf files/4_PiagetSensorimotor.pdf Piaget, J. (1952). The origins of intelligence in children. New York: International Universities Press. Summary appears at end.

Part I. Events.

Substage 1. Reflexes (0-1 mo.)
Infant responds to a stimulus with automatic behavior. Its brain remembers, modifies and improves behavior.

Substage 2. Combinations (1-4 mo.)
Simple reflexes gain complexity by combining them.

Substage 3. Outside World (4-8 mo.)
Complex reflex behavior notices outside world responses are different from internal responses. Rename these reflexes as "actions." Example: toys happen.

Substage 4. Repeatability (8-12 mo.)
Awareness of feedback repeatability. Example: action can bring toy.

Substage 5. Experimentation (12-18 mo.)
Experimental feedback. Random actions used to narrow and define cause and effect. Actions rule; brain does not.

Substage 6. Symbolism (18-24 mo.)
Experimental feedback is registered from body actions outside brain in brain with one-to-one correspondence thus creating a world inside the brain.
=============================================

Part II. Details.

Level 1. Reflexes
Physical stimulus --> physical response. Brain records. We suppose maps are drawn within the brain, distortions possible. Processes: (a) stimulus, (b) response, (c) correspondence mapping, (d) feedback, (e) graded satisfaction, (f) less than satisfactory discarded, (g)satisfactory preserved . Response improves. Call this, "learning."

Level 2. Combinations
Simple reflexes gain complexity by combining them. Combining means patterns are noted. A set of stimuli-responses is clustered. What is not clear is whether these patterns lie within both stimuli and responses or each stimulus is associated with a response pattern. This would be complex within the brain, but doable. There would be parallel sensory systems: touch, kinesthetic, visual, sound, smell, etc.

Level 3. Outside World
Outside world responses are noted to be different from internal responses. Call these new stimuli-responses, "actions." Where the outside world was undifferentiated, now it's added to pattern recognition. The outside world presents sensory experiences which are different in kind. There is something about the outside world which is different than the internal world. Perhaps clarity of sensations as opposed to the fuzzier internal sensations?

Level 4. Repeatability
Awareness of feedback repeatability. Example: action can bring toy. There is an awareness one action fails; another succeeds. Internal brain-body patterns bring about outside world patterns. The connection is noted, thus producing a higher level pattern. Call this awareness of "cause and effect." There is a collection of these patterns which are distinct.

Level 5. Experimentation
The brain, realizing the multiplicity of cause-effect patterns adds choice to its repertoire bringing about more cause-effect patterns.

Level 6. Symbolism
When sufficient inside-outside patterns are experienced, the brain notes the inside causes are different than the outside effects. This collection of inside experiences defines a collective called "me."

While the human brain has a large capacity for the development of complex patterns, the brains of other species are more limited. For example, at some point, a mirror "self" can be recognized meaning that the pattern seen in the mirror is a symbol of oneself. This is not the case with dogs. Can they be taught? That remains to be seen. It may be that the mirror can produce a reward or satisfaction in the human which is of no interest to a dog. This kind of approach could come in handy as we move on to Levels 7 and on up.


=============================================

Part III. Hierarchy.

Notice how the next more advance stage remains unknown to the current stage. Notice how the less advanced stage is a subset of the current stage. This produces distinct brain levels structured as a hierarchy.

Level 1. Reflexes
Physical stimulus --> physical response. There is only one happening at a time. No others exist that are recognized. That is, other stimulus responses are not connected. There are no combinations.

Level 2. Combinations
Simple reflexes gain complexity by combining them. Combining means patterns are noted whereby a set of stimuli-responses are clustered. Among these patterns is no distinction bringing awareness of the difference between the the internal world and the outside world.

Level 3. Outside World
Where the outside world was excluded, now it's added to the pattern notation. The pattern is enlarged further with this new distinction. Distinguishing ability makes this a higher level. There is no awareness of how this distinction is brought about, just that it is there.

Level 4. Repeatability
Awareness of feedback repeatability. Example: proper action can bring toy. There is an awareness one action fails; another succeeds. One internal brain-body pattern produces outside world pattern; another does not. The connection is noted, thus producing a higher level pattern. Call this connection awareness of "cause and effect." There is a collection of these patterns which are distinct. There is no awareness of any control over this cause and effect ... just that it happens.

Level 5. Experimentation
Notice that the formation of these higher level patterns (patterns about patterns) require the brain to be able to input and store them. This ability is not present in all animals nor in all human animals. Although we are talking normal human development, looking at difference here will shed more light on how the brain works. This stage adds awareness of the ability to choose among possible causes and effects. There is no awareness that a unified "chooser" exists.

Level 6. Symbolism
After collecting adequate awarenesses of inside-outside causes and effects, it is realized that the source is a unity on the inside. This awareness is called, "the self." This awareness is a symbol of that unity.

Notice that the brain now contains many patterns about the internal world and the external world. There is a very rough mapping of one to the other. This will enable the internal world itself to experiment with in a way similar to what it had done with the outside world. Feedback from the outside world is constantly needed as maintenance. In the special case where this feedback is absent, we call the self, "psychotic."

=============================================

Part IV. Levels

Outline omitting details.
Patterns about patterns about patterns about patterns about patterns about patterns are too difficult for our brains to fathom at one time. We usually can comprehend only two levels at a time by comparing or contrasting them. That makes intuitive understanding difficult. This is why it is difficult.

Here is a terse summary as Da Blob outlined in the beginning:
Symbolic behavior is based on real behavior is based on deliberate trial and error is based on knowing the outside world is different is based on knowing complex responses is based on the basic response.

Each level of brain pattern advances the one before. The one before is not aware of the more advanced stage which is a mystery to it.

 

[SLushhYYY]

How would one justify the necessity of the tens of millions of neurons within the heart. As well as with the gut? Are these also separate entities of thought that are inaccessible by the host?

Can our heart actually think for itself?

 

[SpaceYeti]

How would one justify the necessity of the tens of millions of neurons within the heart. As well as with the gut? Are these also separate entities of thought that are inaccessible by the host?

Can our heart actually think for itself?

Possibly... but probably not, as that bares no evolutionary advantage and so is extremely unlikely to happen all on it's own.

 

[Da Blob]

Basically 75 years ago, Piaget outlined the Big Bang of human consciousness, in a manner in which Immanuel Kant would have approved of, for it is basically a transcendental process, where a 'completely new' POV is made possible by accumulation of data at a previous stage or dimension.

The beauty of the sensori-motor stage is that it seems to employ that which Howard Gardner labels as musical intelligence,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Gardner

the analogy of the six stages to the creation of individual notes, then chords (harmony), then scales, then melody, then dissonance etc. may indeed may be more than just an analogy.

Once a child learns the utility of the Symbol, cognitive growth accelerates at perhaps an exponential pace, perhaps limited only by the capacity of a growing human brain and the richness of the environment, that can be structured to facilitate cognitive growth via a process Lev Vygotsky termed "scaffolding"

Knowledge of this elaborate process, is one of the reasons I more or less constantly rant about 'obsolete philosophy' based upon physics, for it is now possibly to fabricate philosophy based upon the elaborate structures of cognition, rather than the mindless behavior of atoms and molecules.

The Construction Of Reality by Piaget should be considered a classic...

Here's an interesting little Article as well
http://www.brainstages.net/the4thr

How would one justify the necessity of the tens of millions of neurons within the heart. As well as with the gut? Are these also separate entities of thought that are inaccessible by the host?

Can our heart actually think for itself?

IMO, the answer is 'Yes, but". It has been assumed for the longest time that the human nervous system is host to a single consciousness, but in fact, there could be several working as a team or as a team of coaches co-ordinating the community of cells that makes up the body of a human being.
I have made a case for 4 consciousnesses based upon evolutionary psychology and neurological structure. IMO, the Sub and Un consciousnesses of the Freudian model may not be either Sub or Un, as if in a hierarchy of consciousness, where the ego is judged to be the only 'real' awareness. Matter of fact, I have suggested elsewhere that there could be a correlation between the MBTI scales and types of consciousness or intelligences (per Gardner)

 

[GYX_Kid]

You mean like this?

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMlVNFpzKNI

..."dammit, i'm in the weird part of youtube again"

 

[BigApplePi]

Beyond The Brain Alright

Brain, Gut & Heart.

So they all have neurons? Seems to me the heart has a lot of fine tuning to do. Most of it is internal, except when I get excited as I am about this. The gut or alimentary canal is a tube where physical input/output gets processed. That keeps the body going. I would think that is important. For some reason the stuff dealing with the outside world got stuck at one end ... you know seeing, hearing, smelling ... that kind of stuff. The neurons there deal with what's going on internally and as an afterthought externally. I guess the external was important enough for a separate container cuz we move around a lot.

Plants are a lot smarter. To live and reproduce they just stay there taking in sun, air, dirt and water. It's a lot easier. No internal mapping of what goes on in the external world or messing around with it is required.

 

[Da Blob]

You mean like this?

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMlVNFpzKNI

..."dammit, i'm in the weird part of youtube again"

no, more like this, perhaps

http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=1889&highlight=mind+fields

Hmm I will check out youtube for a video of this or something similar

 

[PhoenixRising]

How would one justify the necessity of the tens of millions of neurons within the heart. As well as with the gut? Are these also separate entities of thought that are inaccessible by the host?

Can our heart actually think for itself?

Actually, it has been recently discovered that the digestive system is somewhat like a separate consciousness. It communicates with the brain, but is a separate nervous system with a different chemical composition from the rest of the nervous system. More than 95 percent of the serotonin in your body is in your intestines, this is because serotonin is the primary neurotransmitter used by the digestive system. It is also well known that the nerves in your muscles hold memories of repetitive movements. So, if you do the same workout routine every day, it's mainly the nerves in your muscles that store the memory of the movement. The heart is an electric pump, electrical signals originate in the sinoatrial and atrioventricular nodes and cause the heart to beat in synch. The brain has little to do with the electric coordination of the heart, it is an autonomic mechanism. The entire body consists of many different systems that communicate and work together symbiotically. The brain is the seat of our overall consciousness and helps to coordinate the intricate communication of the various nervous systems, but is not the sole intelligence of the body.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Actually, it has been recently discovered that the digestive system is somewhat like a separate consciousness. It communicates with the brain, but is a separate nervous system with a different chemical composition from the rest of the nervous system. More than 95 percent of the serotonin in your body is in your intestines, this is because serotonin is the primary neurotransmitter used by the digestive system. It is also well known that the nerves in your muscles hold memories of repetitive movements. So, if you do the same workout routine every day, it's mainly the nerves in your muscles that store the memory of the movement. The heart is an electric pump, electrical signals originate in the sinoatrial and atrioventricular nodes and cause the heart to beat in synch. The brain has little to do with the electric coordination of the heart, it is an autonomic mechanism. The entire body consists of many different systems that communicate and work together symbiotically. The brain is the seat of our overall consciousness and helps to coordinate the intricate communication of the various nervous systems, but is not the sole intelligence of the body.

I haven't fact checked everything you've said, but two things; The digestive tract is under control of the autonomic nervous system, which we simply lack control over. It is controlled from the brain, as all other things.

The idiom "muscle memory" isn't to be taken to mean muscles, or the nerves in the muscles, actually remember the slight, practiced motions of repeated processes. Instead, it's the cerebellum of the brain where muscle memory gets processed.

 

[SLushhYYY]

I haven't fact checked everything you've said, but two things; The digestive tract is under control of the autonomic nervous system, which we simply lack control over. It is controlled from the brain, as all other things.

The idiom "muscle memory" isn't to be taken to mean muscles, or the nerves in the muscles, actually remember the slight, practiced motions of repeated processes. Instead, it's the cerebellum of the brain where muscle memory gets processed.

Exactly.

Does the heart and gut have neurons? Yes. Are they able to communicate to each other and form connections? Yes. Is this an indicative sign of higher learning? Definitely no, our heart has no conscious, the neurons (called the sinoatrial node) in our heart communicate with themselves as well as with certain muscles/nerves which make our hearts beat. These neurons also fire spontaneously, meaning they receive random action potentials at regular patterns (roughly 60-70 times per minute) which is rather odd and is a big mystery of the heart.

 

[nanook]

other take on the matter

"‘I think DNA is ultimately trying to create a world where the imagination is externalized, where the mind and the external world become synchronized as one, so that basically whatever we can imagine can become a reality. Literally.”
An Interview With Psychedelic Explorer David Jay Brown
"I was surgically implanting electrodes into the brain centers of mammals and stimulating them: In this case I was inserting cold probes, which are devices that actually freeze or inhibit a certain part of the brain temporarily, so you can see how the animal operates with that one part of the brain missing, and how they operate when that part of the brain comes back. The anesthetic that we gave to the rabbits prior to surgery was a drug called ketamine. "

freaks of science ....