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Basic understanding of MBTI

Architect

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Many or most people seem to misunderstand the basic ideas of MBTI which I'll break out here. I've posted variations on this in many threads recently which is why I think it deserves its own space.

Everybody has the following capabilities: E, I, N, S, T, F, J and P.

Everybody has the following functions:

  • Ne - I want to design the fence.
  • Ni - Why do they want to do this and what is the deal with fences anyway? Is this necessary?
  • Se - I want to decorate the fence and make sure that it looks stylish and appealing
  • Si - I’ll take care of looking at the instructions and making sure that we follow the established guidlines.
  • Te - Is doing this cost effective? Will it be useful?
  • Ti - I want to analyze the structure and placement of the fence.
  • Fe - How will it affect the neighborhood, and what will the neighbors think?
  • Fi - I want it to be my own special fence that I can share with others over time

Everybody has one of the following types: INFJ, ENTP, INFP, ENTJ, INTP, ENFJ, INTJ, ENFP, ISFJ, ESTP, ISFP, ESTJ, ISTP, ESFJ, ISTJ, ESFP.

Everybody prefers a set of four functions that form their functional stack (i.e. Ti, Ne, Si, Fe for the INTP). This stack strengthens over their lifetime due to using and developing them. Everybody also strengthens their weaker functions and capabilities because they have to due to environmental/life pressures.

Thus people become more self-actualized and well rounded while simultaneously becoming more themselves.
 

own8ge

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Very general, but perhaps they need stuff like this... :confused:
 

BigApplePi

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Everybody has the following functions:

  • Ne - I want to design the fence.
  • Ni - Why do they want to do this and what is the deal with fences anyway? Is this necessary?
  • Se - I want to decorate the fence and make sure that it looks stylish and appealing
  • Si - I’ll take care of looking at the instructions and making sure that we follow the established guidlines.
  • Te - Is doing this cost effective? Will it be useful?
  • Ti - I want to analyze the structure and placement of the fence.
  • Fe - How will it affect the neighborhood, and what will the neighbors think?
  • Fi - I want it to be my own special fence that I can share with others over time
Everyone has the capacity for ALL of the aboves. They can take on any of them at any time. It's just that for various reasons one does not: ease of use, morality, disinclination, past unpleasantries, current interests, etc.


Everybody has one of the following types: INFJ, ENTP, INFP, ENTJ, INTP, ENFJ, INTJ, ENFP, ISFJ, ESTP, ISFP, ESTJ, ISTP, ESFJ, ISTJ, ESFP.
Define "has." Those temperaments are centers. One may leave the center at any time and be pulled back to one's central self like a gravitational force.

Everybody prefers a set of four functions that form their functional stack (i.e. Ti, Ne, Si, Fe for the INTP). This stack strengthens over their lifetime due to using and developing them. Everybody also strengthens their weaker functions and capabilities because they have to due to environmental/life pressures.

Thus people become more self-actualized and well rounded while simultaneously becoming more themselves.
Preference is not a restriction. Reach out and your preference can change. Probably not easily though. There is a homeostasis about it.
 

own8ge

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I will add...

The dichotomies define a functional stack. e.g. INTP merely means the function combination TiNeSiFe. So every person has every personality type (INFJ, ENTP, INFP, ENTJ, INTP, ENFJ, INTJ, ENFP, ISFJ, ESTP, ISFP, ESTJ, ISTP, ESFJ, ISTJ, ESFP), but merely in a different hierarchy that is predefined by your conscious preference.

One personality type has every other personality type in itself in a solid hierarchy (1 personality type, has all function combinations).

When you read a description of a personality type, then you are merely reading an example/stereotype of a personality type. 1 Personality type has MANY ways it can manifest.

The dichotomies I/E and J/P define the focus of your consciousness. On what is your consciousness focused on? This is defined by the dichotomies I/E and J/P.

J/P define if your consciousness is focused on Pe (Ne or Se) +Ji (Fi or Ti) or Pi (Ni or Si) + Je (Fe or Te).

I/E define if your consciousness is focused internally or externally.

For the introvert adaptive (IP), this will mean that the focus is on Ji (Fi or Ti) which is developed by Pe (Ne or Se).
For the introvert directive (IJ), this will mean that the focus is on Pi (Ni or Si) which is developed by Je (Fe or Te).
For the extrovert adaptive (EP) this will mean that the focus is on Pe (Ne or Se) which is developed by Ji (Ti or Fi).
For the extrovert directive (EJ) this will mean that the focus is on Je (Te or Fe) which is developed by Pi (Si or Ni).


The dichotomies N/S and T/F define how you filter perception and how you draw conclusions based on that perception. N/S = Perception, T/F = Judgment

N will be interpretive perception. Which perceives beyond what is visible but what also could be.
S is concrete perception. Which only takes into account that what is.

T/F has nothing to do with rational or irrational. Instead, T means that it draws conclusions from a bias that is rationalized. F means that it keeps things open for questioning. However, in every F type is a strong T and vice versa. Even in the INTP whaha. T/F must be observed if you wish to understand them.

But of course, THAT judgment and perception are based on what your consciousness is focused on (I/E and J/P). N/S and T/F merely define how you progress your thoughts.
 

Architect

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Everyone has the capacity for ALL of the aboves. They can take on any of them at any time. It's just that for various reasons one does not: ease of use, morality, disinclination, past unpleasantries, current interests, etc.

Yup, that what I said or meant to say.


Define "has." Those temperaments are centers. One may leave the center at any time and be pulled back to one's central self like a gravitational force.

By 'has' I mean you are born with it. There is some evidence for a hormonal and stimulus capacity, esp Introversion/Extraversion.

Preference is not a restriction. Reach out and your preference can change. Probably not easily though. There is a homeostasis about it.

Depending on how you mean that, it also sounds like a restatement of my last bit maybe.
 

BigApplePi

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Yup, that what I said or meant to say.
We keep struggling to get it to feel right. A mathematical proof gets it most exactly, but we can't achieve that here.


By 'has' I mean you are born with it. There is some evidence for a hormonal and stimulus capacity, esp Introversion/Extraversion.
Isn't it interesting the I and the E get paired with the others while the others get no such status. I can look in or out with my thinking, in or out with my sensation, in or out with my intuition, in or out with my feelings. Just what would my wiring or my hormones do to give me a preference?


Depending on how you mean that, it also sounds like a restatement of my last bit maybe.
Some has to be old hat and yet the new must be at least a little creative.
 

own8ge

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Isn't it interesting the I and the E get paired with the others while the others get no such status. I can look in or out with my thinking, in or out with my sensation, in or out with my intuition, in or out with my feelings. Just what would my wiring or my hormones do to give me a preference?

That what is draining for your consciousness will be avoided. If something is draining, it immediately gets associated with negative emotions. If something is a pain to think, it will not be thought. Instead, an alternative POV will be established. A POV that is not as draining but rewarding instead, ergo establishing a preference.

What is most rewarding will be associated with curiosity and confidence. Now who doesn't want to think what he is curios and confident to think about? This is our consciousness being tricked into thinking in patterns that are most rewarding. :D

This is our consciousness being tricked into thinking in patterns which are easy o.O Everyone has a different kind of easy-thinking. Ergo a different preference
 

BigApplePi

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That what is draining for your consciousness will be avoided. If something is draining, it immediately gets associated with negative emotions. If something is a pain to think, it will not be thought. Instead, an alternative POV will be established. A POV that is not as draining but rewarding instead, ergo establishing a preference.

What is most rewarding will be associated with curiosity and confidence. Now who doesn't want to think what he is curios and confident to think about? This is our consciousness being tricked into thinking in patterns that are most rewarding. :D
Let's think about this in terms of needs. Needs are basic and foundational. If I'm happy as a clam, I may look outside for more pleasure. If I'm suffering for lack, I may look outside for aid or inside if the outside is attacking me. It depends on how I feel inside and what is offered outside.
 

own8ge

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Let's think about this in terms of needs. Needs are basic and foundational. If I'm happy as a clam, I may look outside for more pleasure. If I'm suffering for lack, I may look outside for aid or inside if the outside is attacking me. It depends on how I feel inside and what is offered outside.

That's not specifically what I meant. The way you think has nothing to do with what you think in the context of how you think typologically.

And how you think typologically is predefined by that what is pleasing. Within that context, your psychological type, you will think in terms of needs.

But your consciousness itself doesn't think in needs, as your consciousness is predefined by your subconscious. o.O (We are going deep now :D)

Your subconsciousness is that what releases your emotions etc. And once something, a thought process, is draining energy for you brain... Then your subconsciousness will over-flood your consciousness with negative emotion. Disabling you from thinking in those terms of thought. These can only be overcome by changing how you perceive that negative emotion. Once you can do that, HELLO ENLIGHTENMENT! :eek:
 

hasen

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I disagree with the notion that we all have all 8 functions but prefer some more strongly.

As if one consciously "prefers" to use Ti + Ne.

If it was simply a matter of preference, I would want to sometimes choose to prefer to use Te and shutdown my Fe, so that I can have better control over things. Then on other times I would choose to prefer Ni and Fe, so I can be better socially adept.

But it doesn't work like this.

Also, the dichotomies are not real. They are meant as a test for cognitive functions.

This is why I think "cognitive function" tests online are silly. MBTI itself is a cognitive function test.

The J/P dichotomy is about trying to discern which function is the extroverted one. That is, do you have Pe or Je (in the top two).
 

own8ge

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@hasen are you new here? :ahh:
 

Architect

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I disagree with the notion that we all have all 8 functions but prefer some more strongly.

As if one consciously "prefers" to use Ti + Ne.

Experimental evidence is overwhelming against you on this one. Taking that example you'll have to explain why myself and an INTP friend sat in the shade watching some Sensors play ultimate frisbee yesterday, and why we spent 45 minutes hypothesizing on team sports, and why somebody would want to go out there and do that (with digressions/comparisons with other potential forms of exercise) when sitting in the shade hypothesizing on it was an available option.

If you have kids it becomes obvious. They've got temperament while in the oven.
 

wonkavision

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Very general, but perhaps they need stuff like this... :confused:


Yeah--It's probably a good idea to review the basic theory now and then, after all the wild speculation and endless modifications.

Nice summary, Architect.
 

Jennywocky

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If you have kids it becomes obvious. They've got temperament while in the oven.

ding ding ding!

yes, I think it's one of the first comments I hear from new parents -- surprise at how unique their child is from pretty much the very beginning. When you've raised a few and have seen them start interacting with the world and processing data from the earliest possible age, it's even more obvious how different they are (having a unique personality) from the start.
 

BigApplePi

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Architect
If you have kids it becomes obvious. They've got temperament while in the oven.
This is getting confusing.

Temperament is not the same as cognitive function. Some want cognition to be conscious; others accept either consciousness or the unconscious. "In the oven" can't be conscious. Desires, inclinations. leanings in their crude form may be innate.

Taking that example you'll have to explain why myself and an INTP friend sat in the shade watching some Sensors play ultimate frisbee yesterday, and why we spent 45 minutes hypothesizing on team sports, and why somebody would want to go out there and do that (with digressions/comparisons with other potential forms of exercise) when sitting in the shade hypothesizing on it was an available option.
What's to stop you and your friend from playing frisbee and after a while learning to like it?
 

Chad

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ArchitectThis is getting confusing.

Temperament is not the same as cognitive function. Some want cognition to be conscious; others accept either consciousness or the unconscious. "In the oven" can't be conscious. Desires, inclinations. leanings in their crude form may be innate.

What's to stop you and your friend from playing frisbee and after a while learning to like it?

Yes, I have to agree with BAP. Temperament and cognitive fictions/ personalities types seem to be different. Then again I can't argue against the Child test because I have never had a child of my own (however, I have many niece and nephews (32 in all) that I helped care for form birth). While there have all had a given temperament at birth it seems to me that they personalities developed over time.

My own experiences helps explain my personality preferences better then genetics. I don't know much about my biological parents (I was adopted) but form what I do know of them I am very different then them. I am also very differant then all of my 5 biological siblings all of who I know quite well. Therefore my personal experience says that genetics doesn't seem to answer the question of why I am the way I am.

However, it would not be likely that my genetic make up doesn't have something to do with my personality. My genetics may have caused me to develop and react a give way to different way to different environmental stimuli. These would create a the unique person that is myself.

The other argument for genetics that I found interesting is the identical twins separated at birth argument. However, the problem with this is it not consistent not every identical twin separated at birth will take similar life paths and preferences. The thing that make it interesting is the is does happen sometimes not the fact that it doesn't happen all the time. Also it is not unheard of to have identical twins with two different personality types. This would be impossible if personality type was completely genetic due to the fact that they are genetically identical.
 

hasen

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Experimental evidence is overwhelming against you on this one. Taking that example you'll have to explain why myself and an INTP friend sat in the shade watching some Sensors play ultimate frisbee yesterday, and why we spent 45 minutes hypothesizing on team sports, and why somebody would want to go out there and do that (with digressions/comparisons with other potential forms of exercise) when sitting in the shade hypothesizing on it was an available option.

If you have kids it becomes obvious. They've got temperament while in the oven.

What point are you trying to make? More importantly, what do you think my point was?

What type are you btw? I'm assuming INTP, right?
 

Architect

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What point are you trying to make? More importantly, what do you think my point was?

What type are you btw? I'm assuming INTP, right?

I'm guessing you're new here.
 

Hadoblado

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Why have two people 'guessed' Hasen was new here when his join date and post count are very clearly available?

If you want to tell him he's wrong because he's new, just do it.
 

Architect

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Why have two people 'guessed' Hasen was new here when his join date and post count are very clearly available?

If you want to tell him he's wrong because he's new, just do it.

Ironic humor by pointing out the futility and newb nature of the question. Like getting into heaven, going up to god and saying "I want to talk to the person in charge so I can give him a piece of my mind!".

Thanks for the opportunity to spell that out, humor is always better when dissected /recursion.
 

Hadoblado

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Ironic humor by pointing out the futility and newb nature of the question. Like getting into heaven, going up to god and saying "I want to talk to the person in charge so I can give him a piece of my mind!".

Thanks for the opportunity to spell that out, humor is always better when dissected /recursion.


I guess I just don't get it.
 

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Ironic humor by pointing out the futility and newb nature of the question. Like getting into heaven, going up to god and saying "I want to talk to the person in charge so I can give him a piece of my mind!".

Thanks for the opportunity to spell that out, humor is always better when dissected /recursion.


There you have it folks. A newb INTP joining the forum and trying to talk to Architect about things he posts is like the newly deceased approaching god with a list of "ideas".

Humor? Can I play the humor card on this?

Also, Chad ... you mentioned something about how you don't truly believe in the genetic/heritable nature of personality because although *some* identical twins bear this uncanny resemblance, even when separated from birth, they're not *all* like that, therefore the theory is false. Psychological theories can always be falsified; psychology is an academic joke.
 

Architect

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There you have it folks. A newb INTP joining the forum and trying to talk to Architect about things he posts is like the newly deceased approaching god with a list of "ideas".
Humor? Can I play the humor card on this?

@Montresor got it, I made the comparison to God on purpose for greater ironic effect

Also, Chad ... you mentioned something about how you don't truly believe in the genetic/heritable nature of personality because although *some* identical twins bear this uncanny resemblance, even when separated from birth, they're not *all* like that, therefore the theory is false. Psychological theories can always be falsified; psychology is an academic joke.

For me the experiential truth of Type in the Womb is apparent. Every kid I've known from the Womb has displayed their type from late gestation on.
 

Hadoblado

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Also, Chad ... you mentioned something about how you don't truly believe in the genetic/heritable nature of personality because although *some* identical twins bear this uncanny resemblance, even when separated from birth, they're not *all* like that, therefore the theory is false. Psychological theories can always be falsified; psychology is an academic joke.

This is... the most broadly unsupported nonsense I've read in awhile. Psychology attempts to define in gradually more specific terms the immense complexity of human behaviour and the mind. It is not understood as a closed logic system because the variables in play are so many that there are severe limitations placed on the generalisability of any given result. The behavioural component of psychology works in trends and not absolutes, thus, when you think of a single counter example to a strong trend, it is not grounds to dismiss the entire discipline of psychology on the spot.

Monozygotic twins are much more strongly correlated in their behaviour, personality, and cognitive capacity than any randomly selected pair from the population. This is something we know. It is not helpful in deductive logic, but if that's the only type of logic you use then I'm surprised you're still alive.
 

Montresor

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This is... the most broadly unsupported nonsense I've read in awhile. Psychology attempts to define in gradually more specific terms the immense complexity of human behaviour and the mind. It is not understood as a closed logic system because the variables in play are so many that there are severe limitations placed on the generalisability of any given result. The behavioural component of psychology works in trends and not absolutes, thus, when you think of a single counter example to a strong trend, it is not grounds to dismiss the entire discipline of psychology on the spot.

Monozygotic twins are much more strongly correlated in their behaviour, personality, and cognitive capacity than any randomly selected pair from the population. This is something we know. It is not helpful in deductive logic, but if that's the only type of logic you use then I'm surprised you're still alive.

I want to dis you but I am holding back. I guess you didn't read my post in the right context. Reply if you want to argue about it.
 

own8ge

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I want to dis you but I am holding back. I guess you didn't read my post in the right context. Reply if you want to argue about it.
sad-i-know-that-feel-bro_3969556_lrg.jpg
 

Hadoblado

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I want to dis you but I am holding back. I guess you didn't read my post in the right context. Reply if you want to argue about it.

Didn't I? Sorry.

PM or VM me if you like, no need to clutter the thread. You can dis me if you want (I love the drama), but since you're being so formal about it I guess we can resolve this misunderstanding without coming to blows?
 

hasen

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Ironic humor by pointing out the futility and newb nature of the question. Like getting into heaven, going up to god and saying "I want to talk to the person in charge so I can give him a piece of my mind!".

Thanks for the opportunity to spell that out, humor is always better when dissected /recursion.

What an incredibly ridiculous analogy.

I'm new to the forum, but I'm not new to MBTI.

The only way your analogy can make sense is if you were in charge here and no one was allowed to argue with you.

Which can't be true if this was an INTP forum.
 

Architect

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What an incredibly ridiculous analogy.

I'm new to the forum, but I'm not new to MBTI.

The only way your analogy can make sense is if you were in charge here and no one was allowed to argue with you.

Which can't be true if this was an INTP forum.

Hang around. If you don't either implode or explode then it will all make sense eventually.
 

Absurdity

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The only way your analogy can make sense is if you were in charge here and no one was allowed to argue with you.

Architect is our god. Well actually it might be more like a Roman imperial cult, but that's just splitting hairs.
 

Architect

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Architect is our god. Well actually it might be more like a Roman imperial cult, but that's just splitting hairs.

You are my Acolytes, Deities and Disciples. Our purpose is to change the world.

I do like the Roman cult idea though, didn't Zeus get a lot of women?
 

own8ge

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You are my Acolytes, Deities and Disciples. Our purpose is to change the world.

I do like the Roman cult idea though, didn't Zeus get a lot of women?

May I play part in this too please? I beg you! :rolleyes:
 

hasen

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This reminds of the underground INTP group where any serious discussion quickly degenerates to silly jokes.
 

scorpiomover

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Many or most people seem to misunderstand the basic ideas of MBTI which I'll break out here. I've posted variations on this in many threads recently which is why I think it deserves its own space.

Everybody has the following capabilities: E, I, N, S, T, F, J and P.
Yes, because:
1) With the 4 functions, at least some are E and some are I.
2) There are one of each of N, S, T, and F.
3) At least some are J and some are P.

Everybody has the following functions:

  • Ne - I want to design the fence.
  • Ni - Why do they want to do this and what is the deal with fences anyway? Is this necessary?
  • Se - I want to decorate the fence and make sure that it looks stylish and appealing
  • Si - I’ll take care of looking at the instructions and making sure that we follow the established guidlines.
  • Te - Is doing this cost effective? Will it be useful?
  • Ti - I want to analyze the structure and placement of the fence.
  • Fe - How will it affect the neighborhood, and what will the neighbors think?
  • Fi - I want it to be my own special fence that I can share with others over time
This of much debate.

Some say that MBTI is genetic, and that each type uses different areas of the brain, in problem-solving, and are the unable to use the other 4 functions. According to them, when an Ni idea is expressed by an NP or SJ, it is because Ne has combined with Ti or Fi.

Some say that you can use other functions, but not usually.

Trouble is, then that only suggest patterns of usage, and not anything particularly significant, because if one pair of cognitive functions weren't getting you to your objective, you'd switch to some other pair. So I believe that the fact that people find certain situations so difficult, when they have a habit of getting stuck in a loop, is because we learn and develop habitually, and so if you use a certain pair of functions consistently, even in a single subject, then it becomes mentally re-inforced that when you approach that subject, you take that cogitive approach, and use those functions. One's general approach, that one takes when there is no specific subject to be selected, would be your "general type". Your types for each subject, would be your subject-specific types.

Still that wouldn't explain why you couldn't get all 64 combinations. Jung also said that certain functions won't work together. Working with that presumption, then one could suppose that one might normally be Ti-Ne in general, and yet be an Ni-Te in politics, and something else in other situations, but you'd always only be behaving like one of the 16, in any one situation. So then, the uniqueness of human beings, would come from the fact that we are always dealing with different people, who know and believe different things, and who know and use different ways of reasoning.

But I'm not entirely sure of that either. From what I think so far, all might be possible. But there ARE clear patterns of behaviour in people in general. So there are probably only certain cognitive patterns that the human mind develops.

Everybody has one of the following types: INFJ, ENTP, INFP, ENTJ, INTP, ENFJ, INTJ, ENFP, ISFJ, ESTP, ISFP, ESTJ, ISTP, ESFJ, ISTJ, ESFP.
This would be the "general type".

Everybody prefers a set of four functions that form their functional stack (i.e. Ti, Ne, Si, Fe for the INTP). This stack strengthens over their lifetime due to using and developing them. Everybody also strengthens their weaker functions and capabilities because they have to due to environmental/life pressures.

Thus people become more self-actualized and well rounded while simultaneously becoming more themselves.
Jung wrote of the nature of the subconscious as trying to complement the thoughts of the conscious, placing itself as the logical opposite of the conscious. This thus suggests that the subconscious is always trying to balance the mind as a whole. But to have more Ne than Ni, means that Ne and Ni are not balanced. So the objective of the mind, is to get all the functions in perfect balance. At the same time, it is practice of a specific function a lot, that improves its usage. So we are continually battling with the subconscious, between its desire to make everything at the same level, and our desire to improve the use of our functions, and so to focus on some to the exclusion of the others.

However, improvement is difficult. It does stress the mental system. So usually, when one is developing a particular characteristic, i.e. under stress, there is a strong tendency to fall back on one's default "general type", and to activate whichever functions are perceived by the mind as being most useful in the circumstances. When 2 compatible functions are selected, such as Ti and Ne, the results produce reasonable answers, enough to deal with the situation. When 2 incompatible functions are selected, such as Ti and Si, then the results are an infinite loop, where one remains trapped in a feedback loop of behaviour that fulfils the famous definition of insanity as "doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result". This is common for an INTP, in any topic in which the INTP relies on developing an idea using rational logic (Ti) to connect concrete facts (Si).
 

Architect

Professional INTP
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May I play part in this too please? I beg you! :rolleyes:

OK, you can be a sub lectern. Or Mercury if we're doing that game.
 
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