Asperger's Syndrome

[steppenwolf]

Hey, everyone. This is my first post here. I've been reading a bit about Asperger's lately and I know I'm not the first one to bring this up, but one can't help but notice that a list of INTP traits is eerily similar to a list of AS symptoms. A little too close for comfort in my mind. Just wondering if any of you guys have ever wondered whether you may have it or where the line might be drawn between the two.

Things I have done in the past that make me think I might have it:

- My mom would always keep telling me to look people in the eye when I was younger and I feel like I don't always use proper body language/facial expressions. People are always telling me to smile.
- I had a couple tics come and go in my late childhood/early teens.
- I used to have a habit of rambling on about something I found interesting at the time but would eventually realize that the person listening was not interested.
- Whenever I decided I liked a girl I would obsess about her all the time. I would never harass her or anything but I could not get her off my mind and would get very jealous.
- I tended to do a lot of reckless attention seeking things when I was younger, I think to compensate for a lack of social skills. (Not sure if this could be considered an aspie trait)
- Throughout my life I feel like I have just sort of been absorbed in my own little world, paying little heed to others or my surroundings.

Reasons I think I don't have it:

- I think I usually pick up on social cues pretty well, although, sometimes the more subtle ones can elude me until I realize it upon later reflection.
- I don't have narrow, obsessive interests. I have plenty of interests but they are broad and tend to change fairly rapidly.
- I can tell when someone is uninterested in what I'm saying and when to change the subject.
- I don't have sensory sensitivities (although I've been told I was a picky eater when I was younger).
- I don't have a need to adhere to routines.
- I have never had trouble understanding humor or sarcasm.

I feel like I've grown out of my introvert shell a lot lately (being more aware of my surroundings, trying to see things from others' point of view, generally being more talkative, etc.) and this may be what is causing me to question my mental health. As far as I have read, no one has ever spontaneously recovered from AS so maybe I'm just growing up? Anyway, thoughts? I'm not asking for a diagnosis and I know none of you can give me one. Just wondering if anyone can relate and maybe offer some insight.

p.s. I'm 22 now. Just in case anyone was wondering.

 

[Ink]

Even if you do "have" it, are you gonna let this description define you? I don't see why you'd care either way. The MBTI is much better in this respect, this is just a way for SJs to categorize INTPs.

 

[nanook]

yeah fuck this useless concept. seriously! it's a trap. you may think the trap provides safety, but then it smells funny and you notice the decay ...

 

[r4ch3l]

I've suspected I may have it for all the reasons on your list as well as obsessive interests, freaking out when my routine is disturbed, not catching sarcasm (only when I was younger), and sensory problems. My dad is atrocious with social cues and also had some symptoms as a kid (not playing with others, hoarding all the toys and organizing them instead). My youngest sister was diagnosed with auditory processing disorder and HFA. In some cases it seems to run in families and this also made me think I may have it and not be diagnosed.

I thought about seeking a diagnosis for some closure but ultimately I have to agree with Ink...it's just a description of a subset of people who process information and behave differently than most. I do think that getting diagnosed as a kid can help; learning workaround strategies and to accept yourself early on is probably beneficial. A diagnosis doesn't change much once you're an adult...you gotta play the hand you've been dealt and decide how much you want to bend to change to society or stick to your natural tendencies.

 

[Analyzer]

Even if you do "have" it, are you gonna let this description define you? I don't see why you'd care either way. The MBTI is much better in this respect, this is just a way for SJs to categorize INTPs.

LOL yeah. I can picture an ESTJ meeting an INTP for the first time and telling himself due to the misunderstandings "He must have Aspergers syndrome or something"...Unless the INTP gives off primarily Ne.

The problem socially for me is I tend to ask a lot of questions and I have noticed many folks get bothered by it, some don't. I think this is due to using more Ne then Fe.

 

[nanook]

Asperger is usually a real 'problem', the problem is how to express your odd nature in society, and a lack of a proper solution is a 'disorder' of personality, but a problem will never be solved when it's not defined correctly and Aspergers definition is herpin and derpin all over the place. In a nutshell my advice is: Do not accept any psychological concept from the outside world, especially not from a paradigm that manages people for the sake of society. Only your psyche has the creativity to solve the 'problems' that itself has 'created', because at the time it was a solution for another situation. your expression was once the best you could do, now an update may be possible. but society has a skewed view on what's a proper expression. they don't want your personality to express your true self, they want your personality to express the values of society.

 

[GodOfOrder]

In game theory, there are stable sets. When enough of one thing propagate they form a norm. Regardless of what this norm is, if it is stable, anything that deviates from this norm will be penalized. Thus, in society anything that deviates from the norm is considered bad, if only because it is detrimental within the current set of conditions.

Asperger's is merely an adaptation that deviates from the norm. Thus society penalizes those who have it, and see this adaptation as a perceived disadvantage. It is then only natural that they would label it as a "disorder".

 

[Analyzer]

In game theory, there are stable sets. When enough of one thing propagate they form a norm. Regardless of what this norm is, if it is stable, anything that deviates from this norm will be penalized. Thus, in society anything that deviates from the norm is considered bad, if only because it is detrimental within the current set of conditions.

Asperger's is merely an adaptation that deviates from the norm. Thus society penalizes those who have it, and see this adaptation as a perceived disadvantage. It is then only natural that they would label it as a "disorder".

Would diagnosing a disorder in society be considered a game or are sets possible within that realm?

 

[GodOfOrder]

The game as I meant it was between competing frequency of personality types, and more essentially between those with different cognative organization and prioritization. Even between the personality types, I imagine that they are similar enough in terms of organization that thoughts and perceptions can be at least somewhat translated. If one was to differ too radically from this standard organization, it wouldn't mean that they, in isolation, would be discunctional; yet when put in the environment created by the dominant style of thinking, they would be maladapted for interaction with the majority. However, if one makes them the majority, you may be maladapted if you don't think like that. I don't have enough understanding of different styles and formats if cognitive organization to assign values and play games, to look for stable states. I only assume that we are currently stable, and that because they deviate from the norm, that they are penalized. I can't actually say anything.

 

[r4ch3l]

^^^yeah, that is what i think about a lot. mental illness, personality disorders, and even neurological disorders are relational disorders.

 

[pjoa09]

Hey, everyone. This is my first post here. I've been reading a bit about Asperger's lately and I know I'm not the first one to bring this up, but one can't help but notice that a list of INTP traits is eerily similar to a list of AS symptoms. A little too close for comfort in my mind. Just wondering if any of you guys have ever wondered whether you may have it or where the line might be drawn between the two.

Things I have done in the past that make me think I might have it:

- My mom would always keep telling me to look people in the eye when I was younger and I feel like I don't always use proper body language/facial expressions. People are always telling me to smile.
- I had a couple tics come and go in my late childhood/early teens.
- I used to have a habit of rambling on about something I found interesting at the time but would eventually realize that the person listening was not interested.
- Whenever I decided I liked a girl I would obsess about her all the time. I would never harass her or anything but I could not get her off my mind and would get very jealous.
- I tended to do a lot of reckless attention seeking things when I was younger, I think to compensate for a lack of social skills. (Not sure if this could be considered an aspie trait)
- Throughout my life I feel like I have just sort of been absorbed in my own little world, paying little heed to others or my surroundings.

Reasons I think I don't have it:

- I think I usually pick up on social cues pretty well, although, sometimes the more subtle ones can elude me until I realize it upon later reflection.
- I don't have narrow, obsessive interests. I have plenty of interests but they are broad and tend to change fairly rapidly.
- I can tell when someone is uninterested in what I'm saying and when to change the subject.
- I don't have sensory sensitivities (although I've been told I was a picky eater when I was younger).
- I don't have a need to adhere to routines.
- I have never had trouble understanding humor or sarcasm.

I feel like I've grown out of my introvert shell a lot lately (being more aware of my surroundings, trying to see things from others' point of view, generally being more talkative, etc.) and this may be what is causing me to question my mental health. As far as I have read, no one has ever spontaneously recovered from AS so maybe I'm just growing up? Anyway, thoughts? I'm not asking for a diagnosis and I know none of you can give me one. Just wondering if anyone can relate and maybe offer some insight.

p.s. I'm 22 now. Just in case anyone was wondering.

That is creepy.

I am 11 days from 22.

Except for the non-aspie traits. Usually people let me know upfront and I do have a narrow range of interests.

They also say that Aspies tend to wear the same clothes over and over again. I have that problem. Once there is a combination that works I just hold on to it for dear life and pretty soon I find photos of myself wearing the same clothes as I am wearing while looking at the photos.

But the term Aspies is not correct to use anymore. You are now on the autism spectrum. Probably too damn close to normal to impair life.

 

[Pinion]

In Asperger's it's not so much that they won't look you in the eye or smile as a child, it's why they won't and what is or isn't going on behind the scenes.

You don't "recover" from Asperger's. You learn coping methods.

 

[crippli]

Hey there!

I did wonder if I had it. Especially since I find those who have it pleasant to listen to. In relation to something else I've had two psychologists screen me for mental problems. If they found something, they haven't told me. They said more like it's understandable that I am like I am, and that my brain is fine.

I'm going to comment quickly on your post anyway.

=steppenwolf;382327
Things I have done in the past that make me think I might have it:

- My mom would always keep telling me to look people in the eye when I was younger and I feel like I don't always use proper body language/facial expressions. People are always telling me to smile.
*I advice people not to make up opinions on how I should behave.

- I had a couple tics come and go in my late childhood/early teens.
*Same for me. Took me awhile to realize that there are people who will not bend to my wishes.
- I used to have a habit of rambling on about something I found interesting at the time but would eventually realize that the person listening was not interested.
*If it's important, they should listen. And I don't consider it rambling.
- Whenever I decided I liked a girl I would obsess about her all the time. I would never harass her or anything but I could not get her off my mind and would get very jealous.
*like very small I did things like that with a few I liked. I got over it, especially after my heart was first broken.
- I tended to do a lot of reckless attention seeking things when I was younger, I think to compensate for a lack of social skills. (Not sure if this could be considered an aspie trait)
*Can not relate. My lack of social skills have never bothered me. As I find I can be social if I feel like it.
- Throughout my life I feel like I have just sort of been absorbed in my own little world, paying little heed to others or my surroundings.
*Likewise. But now and then there are scenarios that forces me to focus outward

Reasons I think I don't have it:

- I think I usually pick up on social cues pretty well, although, sometimes the more subtle ones can elude me until I realize it upon later reflection.
*I have found very few who are able to pick up on advanced social cuing.
- I don't have narrow, obsessive interests. I have plenty of interests but they are broad and tend to change fairly rapidly.
*Mine are obsessive, but not overly narrow.
- I can tell when someone is uninterested in what I'm saying and when to change the subject.
*Me too, but if what I say is important, then they would be wise to listen. Still I will be operating on a dual mode that enables me to monitor their emotional state.
- I don't have sensory sensitivities (although I've been told I was a picky eater when I was younger).
*I have many sensory sensibilities. Some are severe. Still, they have been developed to improve on my life quality
- I don't have a need to adhere to routines.
*There are many things I expect to follow a pattern and also consistency. If that fails, I may get confused.
- I have never had trouble understanding humor or sarcasm.
*Likewise. I will mostly ignore it though, since I find it to be of low quality, and non humorous.

I feel like I've grown out of my introvert shell a lot lately (being more aware of my surroundings, trying to see things from others' point of view, generally being more talkative, etc.) and this may be what is causing me to question my mental health. As far as I have read, no one has ever spontaneously recovered from AS so maybe I'm just growing up? Anyway, thoughts? I'm not asking for a diagnosis and I know none of you can give me one. Just wondering if anyone can relate and maybe offer some insight.
*I would imagine otherness would be quite clear to you.
p.s. I'm 22 now. Just in case anyone was wondering.

In short: there would be two options, be formed, or form them

 

[steppenwolf]

Thanks for taking the time, guys. Yeah, I realize it's just something I'm going to have to deal with either way. I just tend to fixate on questions which can't be definitively answered and can't let them go (another aspie symptom? haha). Anyone else have that problem?

 

[Turniphead]

I just tend to fixate on questions which can't be definitively answered and can't let them go (another aspie symptom? haha). Anyone else have that problem?

Yes, often. Usually I'm doing it with things like a "career". I create a false dichotomy between things.

"Am I more suited for this kind of work, hmm, maybe that other kind of work. But that one wasn't fun. But I'm better at it, so I should do it anyway."

Thoughts like that. I'm fixated on trying to figure out the RIGHT answer. Once I figure it out, all my problems will be solved. Or something.

Sometimes I fall into a loop of trying to definitively figure out what my personality(type) is. "Hmm... I don't fit with the others in this way, I must be the other type. But wait I don't fit with that thing the other type does."



My brain is silly.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I do not know if I have asperger syndrome, for sure I can look in peoples eyes, or talk to a degree with them and act as if I am interested, while in reality I am only trying to keep my own thoughts. I regard asperger syndrome as hallmark of unity of the mind. It is presented in many forms, but the mind has trouble connecting to be so diverse as a normal brain. The good side of the game is that while many connections in the brain are neglected the ones you do connect get overconnected thus making you a unique type of thinker.

In my case I still did not discover anything particulary aspergeroid in me, other than the fact that I can easly relate to what they say.

As for emotions I had outbursts of emotions as a child then I got them under control.
My empathy started developing around age 10. Before that I was enclosed in my mind.
I still have trouble understanding language as other people understand it.
People almost never get me. I rarely understand people.
99 percent of what people do on daily basis seems silly to me.

 

[Hadoblado]

ASD is a bit more severe a difference than mere temperament. There are substantial neurological differences between neurotypicals and people with ASD.

But yes, there is strong overlap between ASD and the INTP type. I would tentatively describe the difference as ASD individuals lacking specific cognitive abilities, and INTPs having a strong preference for not using them (whether that be because they are bad at it or otherwise). I also speculate that neuroplasticity plays a strong role in both ASD savants, and the more introverted INTPs.

 

[Beat Mango]

You must understand that any mental condition was not invented "bottom-up", however are always defined as such. The disorder is coined first based on an idea, then the individual characteristics extrapolated later.

For example, Hans Asperger noticed unusual children, got an idea of the possibility of an underlying condition, and then extrapolated the characteristics of these odd children "top-down" to coin the term Asperger's Syndrome.

The problem with diagnosing bottom-up is the tendency to over-diagnose. Due to the human habit of cold reading, we can read into the broken down traits and think we have a disorder. But if we don't have the correct underlying idea of what it is to be Asperger's, then we will probably be wrong in our diagnosis. The best way to obtain this idea, might be to observe people who definitely have it. Don't forget that Asperger's is now in the DSM-V considered part of a spectrum rather than an isolated thing-in-itself.

 

[r4ch3l]

ASD is a bit more severe a difference than mere temperament. There are substantial neurological differences between neurotypicals and people with ASD.

It seems that the neurological differences are one of the aspects of ASD that is always mentioned in order to demonstrate the difference between, say, ASD and schizotypal personality disorder. I've read that in the future MRI scans could be used to diagnose ASD but I'm confused because those on the schizophrenia spectrum have atypical brain functioning as well? The neurological/psychiatric divide has never completely made sense to me. [feels dumb] I used to think I understood it but the more I research the more I see that these superficially differing labels that are used to categorize things have so much overlap.

 

[BloodCountess88]

ASD is a bit more severe a difference than mere temperament. There are substantial neurological differences between neurotypicals and people with ASD.

But yes, there is strong overlap between ASD and the INTP type. I would tentatively describe the difference as ASD individuals lacking specific cognitive abilities, and INTPs having a strong preference for not using them (whether that be because they are bad at it or otherwise). I also speculate that neuroplasticity plays a strong role in both ASD savants, and the more introverted INTPs.

There is, and there might be a connection genetically which is a strong possibility.


From what you OP described, you do not fit the asperger's diagnosis criteria. Which is often distorted by the large amount of self claimed "aspies". The severity of certain behaviors can often get in the way of learning, as in a child cannot be placed and succeed in a classroom because of it. Which is the reason to seek a diagnosis, for OT therapy (which often gets overlooked in aspergers, that's the reason why it's all ASD now, to make sure no one denies services to people) and behavioral therapy that can help give coping mechanisms to people and help them function through society.

Aspergers can be higher functioning, or can be more severe than in cases with classic autism that is higher functioning. If it's less severe, you will still have specific needs usually OT/sensory needs.

I have small children with a ASD diagnosis. Because they started talking before 5 although not fluently yet ( they are delayed) and are very high functioning, I will not know if it's aspergers or HFA until they are 12. To many, they look normal and they act normal. In reality, they fit all the criteria (in all aspects) of the ASD diagnosis, including socio-emotional.

 

[steppenwolf]

You must understand that any mental condition was not invented "bottom-up", however are always defined as such. The disorder is coined first based on an idea, then the individual characteristics extrapolated later.

For example, Hans Asperger noticed unusual children, got an idea of the possibility of an underlying condition, and then extrapolated the characteristics of these odd children "top-down" to coin the term Asperger's Syndrome.

The problem with diagnosing bottom-up is the tendency to over-diagnose. Due to the human habit of cold reading, we can read into the broken down traits and think we have a disorder. But if we don't have the correct underlying idea of what it is to be Asperger's, then we will probably be wrong in our diagnosis. The best way to obtain this idea, might be to observe people who definitely have it. Don't forget that Asperger's is now in the DSM-V considered part of a spectrum rather than an isolated thing-in-itself.

^^^ This, this, this

I think that cognitive neuroscience is one of the most important scientific endeavors of our time for this exact reason. We can lump people with somewhat similar traits together for all the good that does, but we need to know the reasons WHY they act this way! There are just far too many overlapping symptoms and gray areas in psychology to take it very seriously.

 

[ZenRaiden]

There is, and there might be a connection genetically which is a strong possibility.


From what you OP described, you do not fit the asperger's diagnosis criteria. Which is often distorted by the large amount of self claimed "aspies". The severity of certain behaviors can often get in the way of learning, as in a child cannot be placed and succeed in a classroom because of it. Which is the reason to seek a diagnosis, for OT therapy (which often gets overlooked in aspergers, that's the reason why it's all ASD now, to make sure no one denies services to people) and behavioral therapy that can help give coping mechanisms to people and help them function through society.

Aspergers can be higher functioning, or can be more severe than in cases with classic autism that is higher functioning. If it's less severe, you will still have specific needs usually OT/sensory needs.

Here is overview of things that might be confused with A syndrome

Asperger syndrome can be misdiagnosed as a number of other conditions, leading to medications that are unnecessary or even worsen behavior; the condition may be at the root of treatment-resistant mental illness in adults. Diagnostic confusion burdens individuals and families and may cause them to seek unhelpful therapies. Conditions that must be considered in a differential diagnosis include other pervasive developmental disorders (autism, PDD-NOS, childhood disintegrative disorder, Rett disorder), schizophrenia spectrum disorders (schizophrenia, schizotypal disorder, schizoid personality disorder), attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, depression, semantic pragmatic disorder, multiple complex developmental disorder and nonverbal learning disorder (NLD).[3]
Differentiating between AS and other ASDs relies on the judgment of experienced clinicians.[9] There is much overlap between AS and NLD: both have symptoms of precocious reading, verbosity, and clumsiness, but they differ in that children with AS have restricted interests, repetitive behaviors, and less-typical social interactions.[13] Tourette syndrome (TS) should also be considered in differential diagnosis: "It is in nonretarded, rigid individuals on the autistic spectrum, especially those with so-called Asperger syndrome, that differences with less severely affected individuals with TS and OCD may become blurred, or that both disorders may coexist."[14] Other problems to be considered in the differential diagnosis include selective mutism, stereotypic movement disorder and bipolar disorder[10] as well as traumatic brain injury or birth trauma, conduct disorder, Cornelia De Lange syndrome, fetal alcohol syndrome, fragile X syndrome, dyslexia, Fahr syndrome, hyperlexia, leukodystrophy, multiple sclerosis and Triple X syndrome.[15]

 

[BloodCountess88]

Here is overview of things that might be confused with A syndrome

Asperger syndrome can be misdiagnosed as a number of other conditions, leading to medications that are unnecessary or even worsen behavior; the condition may be at the root of treatment-resistant mental illness in adults. Diagnostic confusion burdens individuals and families and may cause them to seek unhelpful therapies. Conditions that must be considered in a differential diagnosis include other pervasive developmental disorders (autism, PDD-NOS, childhood disintegrative disorder, Rett disorder), schizophrenia spectrum disorders (schizophrenia, schizotypal disorder, schizoid personality disorder), attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, depression, semantic pragmatic disorder, multiple complex developmental disorder and nonverbal learning disorder (NLD).[3]
Differentiating between AS and other ASDs relies on the judgment of experienced clinicians.[9] There is much overlap between AS and NLD: both have symptoms of precocious reading, verbosity, and clumsiness, but they differ in that children with AS have restricted interests, repetitive behaviors, and less-typical social interactions.[13] Tourette syndrome (TS) should also be considered in differential diagnosis: "It is in nonretarded, rigid individuals on the autistic spectrum, especially those with so-called Asperger syndrome, that differences with less severely affected individuals with TS and OCD may become blurred, or that both disorders may coexist."[14] Other problems to be considered in the differential diagnosis include selective mutism, stereotypic movement disorder and bipolar disorder[10] as well as traumatic brain injury or birth trauma, conduct disorder, Cornelia De Lange syndrome, fetal alcohol syndrome, fragile X syndrome, dyslexia, Fahr syndrome, hyperlexia, leukodystrophy, multiple sclerosis and Triple X syndrome.[15]

Yes, it can often be confused and misdiagnosed by neurologists, but there are cases where someone with aspergers can be crutched by it's behavioral traits while someone who is nonverbal and has "classic" autism that's higher functioning with less severe traits can become more functional. And example of this, is someone who uses sign language even though they are not deaf and are in the ASD spectrum, while with aspergers might have severe motor delays or severe socio-emotional delays.


Rhett's is actually very hard to misdiagnose, because of the presence of seizures along with the developmental recessions.

A child with NLD doesn't fit all the criteria of HFA nor aspergers. Children with asperger's and HFA won't even point at an object they want. Even non verbally, they won't tell you if they are hungry. ASD children parallel play on higher functioning cases, but won't let you interact. Won't have reciprocal conversation (mostly aspergers) rather will talk about themselves and won't transition from a topic to the next, some HFA kids will and PDD-now will.

Behavioral therapy is tailored to a child's needs, there isn't many cases of it being problematic if using the correct method. In many cases of medication in children with ASD with no overlapping diagnose (not ADHD, since it's part of ASD, rather bipolar), behavioral intervention would be more effective at targeting violent behaviors. This was a case for my own child, once language came through and behavioral intervention, his violent episodes were cut in half, now only happen when SPD triggers it. ABA, OT and Speech are not invasive treatments for a child, maybe for the parent it's very time consuming, but if you google OT gym and watch a video on ABA therapy, it's a method of teaching that's often used in private schools and specialized teaching.


My point is, ASD in general has very specific traits. Underactive/overactive vestibular system and other neurological nerve functions that cause behaviors (underactive vestibular causes head banging, dragging head on floor, spinning and wanting sensory input, it's a functional behavioral trait), gross motor repetitive behaviors (walking on toes, flapping doesn't look like most people think it does, being clumsy is not just a way to determine it, my kids are not clumsy the can do head stands). Often you hear " yeah I have aspergers" from people who have never seen the inside of a neurologists office (which is THE ONLY specialists who can diagnose it, the others are just speculating), people who are socially awkward and feel like they don't belong, yet fit only one or two of the diagnostics criteria in the current DSM (you have to have over 6 to be diagnosed), and help spread of misinformation regarding what aspergers is.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Yes, it can often be confused and misdiagnosed by neurologists, but there are cases where someone with aspergers can be crutched by it's behavioral traits while someone who is nonverbal and has "classic" autism that's higher functioning with less severe traits can become more functional. And example of this, is someone who uses sign language even though they are not deaf and are in the ASD spectrum, while with aspergers might have severe motor delays or severe socio-emotional delays.


Rhett's is actually very hard to misdiagnose, because of the presence of seizures along with the developmental recessions.

A child with NLD doesn't fit all the criteria of HFA nor aspergers. Children with asperger's and HFA won't even point at an object they want. Even non verbally, they won't tell you if they are hungry. ASD children parallel play on higher functioning cases, but won't let you interact. Won't have reciprocal conversation (mostly aspergers) rather will talk about themselves and won't transition from a topic to the next, some HFA kids will and PDD-now will.

Behavioral therapy is tailored to a child's needs, there isn't many cases of it being problematic if using the correct method. In many cases of medication in children with ASD with no overlapping diagnose (not ADHD, since it's part of ASD, rather bipolar), behavioral intervention would be more effective at targeting violent behaviors. This was a case for my own child, once language came through and behavioral intervention, his violent episodes were cut in half, now only happen when SPD triggers it. ABA, OT and Speech are not invasive treatments for a child, maybe for the parent it's very time consuming, but if you google OT gym and watch a video on ABA therapy, it's a method of teaching that's often used in private schools and specialized teaching.


My point is, ASD in general has very specific traits. Underactive/overactive vestibular system and other neurological nerve functions that cause behaviors (underactive vestibular causes head banging, dragging head on floor, spinning and wanting sensory input, it's a functional behavioral trait), gross motor repetitive behaviors (walking on toes, flapping doesn't look like most people think it does, being clumsy is not just a way to determine it, my kids are not clumsy the can do head stands). Often you hear " yeah I have aspergers" from people who have never seen the inside of a neurologists office (which is THE ONLY specialists who can diagnose it, the others are just speculating), people who are socially awkward and feel like they don't belong, yet fit only one or two of the diagnostics criteria in the current DSM (you have to have over 6 to be diagnosed), and help spread of misinformation regarding what aspergers is.

Interesting. For me I still see little difference between HFA and Asperger.
I think I was pretty autistic yet I think most people would who know me now would say that is BS. The reason I believe I am autistic on the spectrum is what ever I read about autism seems too much normal. I just do not see anything supprising about it.

Main factors that I consider autistic, but do not have to be:
Random long term fascinations with objects.
Inability to play with other kids and form normal relationships in early years- kindergarden and first, second, third elementary.
Restricted interest to single or two.
Elaborate fictional world.
Fascinations with geometrical shapes, water shapes, cars, planes, ships etc.
Sluggishness and slowness in social interactions( me for sure) delayed respons when asked a question.
Talking to people feels very uneasy.
Usually have only one friend whom to talk to.
Playing alone for long period of time, restricting others to play.
There is a lot more that I relate to, but it is hard to explain.
I personally think that I am HFA, but I did suffer clumsiness at a early age.
The reason I think I am HFA is because I am pretty well adapted and never had any help from anyone. I also remember developmental spurts, so I had delayed social skills and some otherskills. My handwritting sucks to this day.

The problem in my country is that they diagnose people only if they are obviously on the spectrum. That means they have do display characteristics visibly. I asked a psychiatrist if I could be autistic and she asked me:"Do you know the difference between a small child and a dwarf?" When I explained the difference she said my abstract thinking is fine and that I am not autistic.
On second occasion I asked a psychologist and she said that psychotic people live in their own world and that is the reason I may have similar symptoms to autism. She never asked about my childhood.
While I agree with here professional opinion, I can not agree with here way of answereing. The fact that someone is psychotic does not exclude the fact that they are autistic and while some people are autistic they certainly do not have just the introverted personal world. Normal functioning autistic child should be able to learn to form relationships with other people.

 

[BloodCountess88]

Interesting. For me I still see little difference between HFA and Asperger.
I think I was pretty autistic yet I think most people would who know me now would say that is BS. The reason I believe I am autistic on the spectrum is what ever I read about autism seems too much normal. I just do not see anything supprising about it.

Main factors that I consider autistic, but do not have to be:
Random long term fascinations with objects.
Inability to play with other kids and form normal relationships in early years- kindergarden and first, second, third elementary.
Restricted interest to single or two.
Elaborate fictional world.
Fascinations with geometrical shapes, water shapes, cars, planes, ships etc.
Sluggishness and slowness in social interactions( me for sure) delayed respons when asked a question.
Talking to people feels very uneasy.
Usually have only one friend whom to talk to.
Playing alone for long period of time, restricting others to play.
There is a lot more that I relate to, but it is hard to explain.
I personally think that I am HFA, but I did suffer clumsiness at a early age.
The reason I think I am HFA is because I am pretty well adapted and never had any help from anyone. I also remember developmental spurts, so I had delayed social skills and some otherskills. My handwritting sucks to this day.

The problem in my country is that they diagnose people only if they are obviously on the spectrum. That means they have do display characteristics visibly. I asked a psychiatrist if I could be autistic and she asked me:"Do you know the difference between a small child and a dwarf?" When I explained the difference she said my abstract thinking is fine and that I am not autistic.
On second occasion I asked a psychologist and she said that psychotic people live in their own world and that is the reason I may have similar symptoms to autism. She never asked about my childhood.
While I agree with here professional opinion, I can not agree with here way of answereing. The fact that someone is psychotic does not exclude the fact that they are autistic and while some people are autistic they certainly do not have just the introverted personal world. Normal functioning autistic child should be able to learn to form relationships with other people.

First off, a psychologist and a psychiatrists are NOT able, ever, to diagnose you. Anyone who tells you that you are, or are not in the ASD and it's not qualified to do so is the same as my answers, or less slo because I am actually a trained behavioral therapists. You need to see a neurologists. What that person told you is a perfect sign of misinformation and her inability to actually tell you if you are or not in the spectrum.


In order to have autism, even HFA, you have to have neurological evidence, it's a neuro condition. Narrow interest, awkward social skills can be a sign of multiple issues and can often even be environmental. In childhood back in the day they called those children "difficult". Some HFA have nothing other than severe tantrums, that are actually caused by either environmental input or rigidity of thought process. It's something constant, even as you grow. Think severe ocd when you see something spill, you HAVE to clean it or else your anxiety levels go up, of if someone moves something you fixed and feel like you are going to cry because someone messed with your environment. Think snapping, severe pacing when you think (not normal pacing,I mean pacing for hours), wearing ONLY one band of clothes and having ONLY one cut of clothes and one color because or else you have anxiety. Yes, these people look normal, and aren't delusional, but there are very distinct patterns that show neurodiversity and their behaviors actually serve a purpose, sensory and logically. It's very different than a PD or spych cases. That can even seen in scans, and now there are developing a genetic test because they did find genetic link to neurodiversity.

You fit only the social aspect of a diagnosis of aspergers, which schizoids also fit along with other PD's, and it even lines up with INTP personality traits. It doesn't mean you neurologically atypical, you could just have issues with certain coping mechanism (which therapy actually helps with, that's what OT and behavioral therapy is, OT deals with environmental input, sometimes you need pressure and spinning and the pacing to actually think and it shows you to do it in a socially acceptable way, behavioral triggers coping and neuroplasticity by allowing you to find your own coping mechanisms through behavior modification ). The only way you will ever know is by going to a neurologists and have them observe you, behaviorally, and interact with you.

You are being exposed to misinformation. It took 7 hours, and 3 different neurologists to diagnose my kids, not a stupid question about delusion. That's extremely unprofessional on your doctor's part.

 

[ZenRaiden]

First off, a psychologist and a psychiatrists are NOT able, ever, to diagnose you. Anyone who tells you that you are, or are not in the ASD and it's not qualified to do so is the same as my answers, or less slo because I am actually a trained behavioral therapists. You need to see a neurologists. What that person told you is a perfect sign of misinformation and her inability to actually tell you if you are or not in the spectrum.


In order to have autism, even HFA, you have to have neurological evidence, it's a neuro condition. Narrow interest, awkward social skills can be a sign of multiple issues and can often even be environmental. In childhood back in the day they called those children "difficult". Some HFA have nothing other than severe tantrums, that are actually caused by either environmental input or rigidity of thought process. It's something constant, even as you grow. Think severe ocd when you see something spill, you HAVE to clean it or else your anxiety levels go up, of if someone moves something you fixed and feel like you are going to cry because someone messed with your environment. Think snapping, severe pacing when you think (not normal pacing,I mean pacing for hours), wearing ONLY one band of clothes and having ONLY one cut of clothes and one color because or else you have anxiety. Yes, these people look normal, and aren't delusional, but there are very distinct patterns that show neurodiversity and their behaviors actually serve a purpose, sensory and logically. It's very different than a PD or spych cases. That can even seen in scans, and now there are developing a genetic test because they did find genetic link to neurodiversity.

You fit only the social aspect of a diagnosis of aspergers, which schizoids also fit along with other PD's, and it even lines up with INTP personality traits. It doesn't mean you neurologically atypical, you could just have issues with certain coping mechanism (which therapy actually helps with, that's what OT and behavioral therapy is, OT deals with environmental input, sometimes you need pressure and spinning and the pacing to actually think and it shows you to do it in a socially acceptable way, behavioral triggers coping and neuroplasticity by allowing you to find your own coping mechanisms through behavior modification ). The only way you will ever know is by going to a neurologists and have them observe you, behaviorally, and interact with you.

You are being exposed to misinformation. It took 7 hours, and 3 different neurologists to diagnose my kids, not a stupid question about delusion. That's extremely unprofessional on your doctor's part.

That is again interesting. 3 different neurologist. I think that is impossible in my country. We only get diagnosis for low functioning people mostly. Simply put you have to be disfunctional in some way to be diagnosed.
I know very well that it is neurological of origines. I did read a lot about it. There are behaviours in my childhood that were plain weird, and I did not do them just to be weird. I am pretty much convinced that I have asperger or HFA based on all the things I remember from childhood. I did have problems in school speaking of cognitive skills. Also felt very detached from collective. In social situations I was a antagonist or I felt strong atagonism. It is hard to explain. If I am not autistic then I do not know what I am. Could be any of the mentioned in my previous post, but it is hard to say. I also suffer long term depression.

Anyhow thanks for the advice. I too think that INTP has a lot in common with asperger diagnosis and that there is overlay with other things such as people in psychotic spectrum which is exact opposite of autistic or at least that is the theory for now.

 

[ZenRaiden]

BloodCountess88 - How did you learn your kids are autistic and what country did you get them diagnosed?
http://intpforum.com/member.php?u=7810

 

[BloodCountess88]

Well, my children were premature, they were in the NICU for a while. There, a nurse pulled my husband aside and told him we should be "looking out" for autism (low birth weight along with prematurity in twins nearly triples the odds) . 2 years later, they failed an autism screening in a developmental consult, we started Early Intervention while in a 8 month waiting list to the Neurodevelopmental center, in the meantime, genetic testing (ruling out fragile X, participating in research) and physical check ups (ruling out deafness, checked for seizures and Rhett's, anything that can make it look like they have autism when they don't, like high amounts of metals or gastrointestinal allergies). Behavioral therapy got started, I was offered to be trained to go into the field since I was interested and good at it, OT and speech therapy was started.


I'm in the US, in one of the states known for it's neurological department. I want to add, my own cousin is one, and I called when when my son had certain behaviors, she was the one who suggested a developmental consult and the in depth screening.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Well, my children were premature, they were in the NICU for a while. There, a nurse pulled my husband aside and told him we should be "looking out" for autism (low birth weight along with prematurity in twins nearly triples the odds) . 2 years later, they failed an autism screening in a developmental consult, we started Early Intervention while in a 8 month waiting list to the Neurodevelopmental center, in the meantime, genetic testing (ruling out fragile X, participating in research) and physical check ups (ruling out deafness, checked for seizures and Rhett's, anything that can make it look like they have autism when they don't, like high amounts of metals or gastrointestinal allergies). Behavioral therapy got started, I was offered to be trained to go into the field since I was interested and good at it, OT and speech therapy was started.


I'm in the US, in one of the states known for it's neurological department. I want to add, my own cousin is one, and I called when when my son had certain behaviors, she was the one who suggested a developmental consult and the in depth screening.

I see. There is a lot going on. Well, I will just have to see a specialist then.
I think USA leads in diagnosing and treating autism. In my country we are 20 years behind in psychiatry or psychology in some areas. At least that is my impression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-dja9Ys4Sg

 

[Ink]

An article relevant to the subject. http://wakeup-world.com/2013/06/04/autistic-boy-discovers-gift-after-removal-from-state-run-therapy/

 

[crippli]

I too think that INTP has a lot in common with asperger diagnosis and that there is overlay with other things such as people in psychotic spectrum which is exact opposite of autistic or at least that is the theory for now.

I've seen this numerous times as well. As is why I haven't taken the "aspie traits" seriously. But still, it makes one wonder when one take these aspie tests. Like this one I took just now. How do one make the seperation between an aspie and an INTP. Are INTP's considered to be neurotypical? I think the accusation is a bit odd "You are very likely an Aspie" as I've never considered myself an aspie. So there is something odd going on here. How do one separate learned from inherent behavior, say regarding empathy?

Spoiler

http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php
Your Aspie score: 166 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 38 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie

 

[Paintzee]

The main advantage of having Asperger's is the ability to think visually very strongly. You can easily see solutions to problems others miss which are clearly obvious. I know I'm an INTP with Asperger's, solving problems which are not obvious to others and as a result looks like genius is great. If they only knew how obvious it is the us the jig be up.

How do you think Einstein came up with relativity, obvious in hindsight to most physicists.

Come across as a bit strange to others, but the advantages out weigh this

 

[crippli]

The main advantage of having Asperger's is the ability to think visually very strongly. You can easily see solutions to problems others miss which are clearly obvious. I know I'm an INTP with Asperger's, solving problems which are not obvious to others and as a result looks like genius is great. If they only knew how obvious it is the us the jig be up.

How do you think Einstein came up with relativity, obvious in hindsight to most physicists.

Come across as a bit strange to others, but the advantages out weigh this

Have you been clinically diagnosed? I can relate somewhat to what you write. I sometimes feel I pick up on things others miss. So that it is imperative for them to listen to me, when the problem is to solved. Unfortunately people rarely go by my proposal, they usually think they know better.

I also asked my psychologist yesterday if they possessed expertise on Asbergers. She said yes, that it was one of their fields, and the testing was done after national criteria, and rather long. Several days with testing, observations and interviews. She said the team had considered Asbergers for me already, at length, but decided against it, as it seemed I had good awareness of social interactions. But if I wanted they could run a test. I said okay. The psychologist repeated that they didn't think I had Asbergers. Maybe it was the other psychologist that had brought it up. I guess someone must have brought it up since they discussed it. I'm going to do that test, and also brain scanning just to be sure. I also noticed above that neurologists was advised. I think this team she talks about are all psychologists. Brain scan is what I primarily want, as there is more objectivity to it, as would be my preference. What the psycologist want to do is work on my social phobia, and didn't think it was autism related. But I'll run the test, so that I can cross it off the list, hopefully for good.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Have you been clinically diagnosed? I can relate somewhat to what you write. I sometimes feel I pick up on things others miss. So that it is imperative for them to listen to me, when the problem is to solved. Unfortunately people rarely go by my proposal, they usually think they know better.

I also asked my psychologist yesterday if they possessed expertise on Asbergers. She said yes, that it was one of their fields, and the testing was done after national criteria, and rather long. Several days with testing, observations and interviews. She said the team had considered Asbergers for me already, at length, but decided against it, as it seemed I had good awareness of social interactions. But if I wanted they could run a test. I said okay. The psychologist repeated that they didn't think I had Asbergers. Maybe it was the other psychologist that had brought it up. I guess someone must have brought it up since they discussed it. I'm going to do that test, and also brain scanning just to be sure. I also noticed above that neurologists was advised. I think this team she talks about are all psychologists. Brain scan is what I primarily want, as there is more objectivity to it, as would be my preference. What the psycologist want to do is work on my social phobia, and didn't think it was autism related. But I'll run the test, so that I can cross it off the list, hopefully for good.

In general I do consider Asperger an interesting thing to study. I will not consider my self asperger unless I get officially diagnosed. I do have some autistic tendencies that could aslo in some way fit HFA. The fact is I am only wondering if I have it to some extent and only, because I read a lot about it and found many of the problems so much similar that I had to face when I was young.

As for interactions I always kind of feel stupid around people when interacting since I really have little to no clue what they are talking about and have to ask, "sorry can you repeat that again" just to make sure I get what they are talking about. I have also problem orienting my self in social interactions since I have really no clue to where or why the conversation started or where it is going to end. I also insult people without realising it. Much help was having a normal brother. In contrast I can understand how people sometimes feel, but only sometimes. It is hard to say weather I meet all the criteria or not, but since my parents and brother say I am normal all the more I am interested weather or not I have this condition. It seems to me that border between normal and asperger is really a huge grayish zone and depending on who the expert might be you either get the diagnosis or not.

Even so more since there is constant research on this topic and who knows how many people may slip the radar simply, because they might not be superficially asperger and are good at acting it. It also takes a bit of time to consider what really is asperger syndrome in the end. I think I respond to people normally, but I lived most of my life isolated. Had few friends and frankly the interactions worked only in elementary school. I lost social traction in high school.

 

[ZenRaiden]

To quote Tony Attwood > from a book The Complete guide to Asperger syndrome

The term High Functioning Autism (HFA) has been used in the past to describe
children who had the classic signs of autism in early childhood but who, as they developed,
were shown in formal testing of cognitive skills to have a greater degree of intellectual
ability, with greater social and adaptive behaviour skills and communication
skills, than is usual with children with autism (DeMyer et al. 1981). The child’s clinical
outcome was much better than expected. However, we currently have no explicit diagnostic
guidelines for the diagnosis of HFA.

 

[ZenRaiden]

The prevalence rates for Asperger’s syndrome vary according to the choice of diagnostic
criteria. The DSM-IV criteria of the American Psychiatric Association, which are almost
identical to the criteria in the International Classification of Diseases, or ICD-10, are the
most restrictive criteria, and have been the subject of considerable criticism as a result of
research studies, and deemed by clinicians as unworkable in clinical practice. The prevalence
of Asperger’s syndrome using DSM-IV or ICD criteria varies in each study with
reported rates of between 0.3 per 10,000 children to 8.4 per 10,000 children (Baird et
al. 2000; Chakrabarti and Fombonne 2001; Sponheim and Skjeldal 1998; Taylor et al.
THE DIAGNOSIS / 45
1999). The expected prevalence rate for Asperger’s syndrome, therefore, according to
these criteria, would vary between 1 in 33,000 and 1 in 1200 children.
The diagnostic criteria of choice by many clinicians, especially in Europe and Australia,
are those of Gillberg and Gillberg (1989) which represent more accurately the
original descriptions of Asperger and the profile of abilities of children referred for a
diagnostic assessment for Asperger’s syndrome. According to the Gillberg criteria, the
prevalence rate is between 36 and 48 per 10,000 children, or between 1 in 280 or 210
children (Ehlers and Gillberg 1993; Kadesjo, Gillberg and Hagberg 1999).

Also this is ineresting.

 

[ZenRaiden]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxsv4f5SQE0 here is an interesting vid.

 

[crippli]

In general I do consider Asperger an interesting thing to study. I will not consider my self asperger unless I get officially diagnosed. I do have some autistic tendencies that could aslo in some way fit HFA. The fact is I am only wondering if I have it to some extent and only, because I read a lot about it and found many of the problems so much similar that I had to face when I was young.

As for interactions I always kind of feel stupid around people when interacting since I really have little to no clue what they are talking about and have to ask, "sorry can you repeat that again" just to make sure I get what they are talking about. I have also problem orienting my self in social interactions since I have really no clue to where or why the conversation started or where it is going to end. I also insult people without realising it. Much help was having a normal brother. In contrast I can understand how people sometimes feel, but only sometimes. It is hard to say weather I meet all the criteria or not, but since my parents and brother say I am normal all the more I am interested weather or not I have this condition. It seems to me that border between normal and asperger is really a huge grayish zone and depending on who the expert might be you either get the diagnosis or not.

Even so more since there is constant research on this topic and who knows how many people may slip the radar simply, because they might not be superficially asperger and are good at acting it. It also takes a bit of time to consider what really is asperger syndrome in the end. I think I respond to people normally, but I lived most of my life isolated. Had few friends and frankly the interactions worked only in elementary school. I lost social traction in high school.

For me this has given me a headache. As the psychologist said she had not considered I had Asberger. But at the main hospital in this country I was sent to get some help with some issues I've struggled with. They 'temporarily' denied the request. One year ago. I've now put stress on a few local people to make them open up and tell me what is going on. I tend to be able to do that. I sort of read them, and then mirror what they say, but more like dark mirroring. Anyway, I met with my psychologist this week, and she actually told me that the hospital had asked them to specifically check if I had Asberger, last year, or maybe even the year before that. Now. I seem to have traits, as I scored as I did above. She had me take a test, after my request. She seems to have decided I have no mental disorder. But why does she not tell me everything she knows? Keeping secrets from me is generally not a good idea. As I usually will notice something is off. There are a lot of politics around this stuff too. Regarding the test- the questions where so fucked up. Like if I need to do the same thing each day. What if say you need to change clothes each day. Does that mean you need to do something different each day, or is that a pattern so you do the same? I have no idea what to answer. I crossed off 3 off 4 alternatives on most questions. Then I discovered that it say it was only allowed to answer one alternative. So I went back and rated the answers. I also provided text to most questions to clarify. Would one with Asberger do something like this? Are you going to get yourself tested?

I'm considering to bail out on the whole psychology thing. There is something odd going on with these people. And start up with a neurologist.

 

[ZenRaiden]

For me this has given me a headache. As the psychologist said she had not considered I had Asberger. But at the main hospital in this country I was sent to get some help with some issues I've struggled with. They 'temporarily' denied the request. One year ago. I've now put stress on a few local people to make them open up and tell me what is going on. I tend to be able to do that. I sort of read them, and then mirror what they say, but more like dark mirroring. Anyway, I met with my psychologist this week, and she actually told me that the hospital had asked them to specifically check if I had Asberger, last year, or maybe even the year before that. Now. I seem to have traits, as I scored as I did above. She had me take a test, after my request. She seems to have decided I have no mental disorder. But why does she not tell me everything she knows? Keeping secrets from me is generally not a good idea. As I usually will notice something is off. There are a lot of politics around this stuff too. Regarding the test- the questions where so fucked up. Like if I need to do the same thing each day. What if say you need to change clothes each day. Does that mean you need to do something different each day, or is that a pattern so you do the same? I have no idea what to answer. I crossed off 3 off 4 alternatives on most questions. Then I discovered that it say it was only allowed to answer one alternative. So I went back and rated the answers. I also provided text to most questions to clarify. Would one with Asberger do something like this? Are you going to get yourself tested?

I'm considering to bail out on the whole psychology thing. There is something odd going on with these people. And start up with a neurologist.

Here in Europe Autism is not taken seriously unless you have sever form of autism. As long as you can act normal no one will investigate on autism. Basically unless your crippeled by autism to the point where it is most apparent
they will do nothing.

Anyhow I do not trust doctors either. Be it anyone( neurologist, psychiatrist or psychologist). I mean I think when they studied autism in school most of the probably did not pay attention anyhow. Autism is not well know and there is whole lot of dogma surrounding it. The basic problem is that to many people autism is just a different way of percieving the world and to many it is a disease. It depends on how you look at it. I am not sure really if I have autism or not as I stated before. One thing I am sure about is that I look normal to most people. I was officially diagnosed with something like psychosis with on set of schizophrenia that is I have some symptoms of schizophrenia, but some are not present to be diagnosed with it. So I am basically a psychotic. I do not really think I am just psychotic dough, but I am not an expert.
The thing is when I asked the psychologist if I could be autistic she quickly discarded the idea that I have autism since psychosis is very similar in symptomology and since then no one really investigated at all. How ever the time it took them to diagnose me with schizophrenia on set was less than few minutes based on symptoms. So I think there is something funny about the way they make diagnoses in Europe. I wonder if it is that funny all over the world.