Are tulpas real?

[JR_IsP]

Yeah, what do you think? I think that when you get used to the idea of some entity being with you all the time, it reaches the point when it becomes automatic.

But are those entities created by our imagination real? When a simple delusion becomes a self-conscious entity? And if it can go independent, can you just "erase" it from your mind?

 

[nanook]

Only if you are Ni dominant

 

[Seteleechete]

Yeah, what do you think? I think that when you get used to the idea of some entity being with you all the time, it reaches the point when it becomes automatic.

But are those entities created by our imagination real? When a simple delusion becomes a self-conscious entity? And if it can go independent, can you just "erase" it from your mind?

[Silina: Well, yes I am real. By some interpretations/perspectives(which we find faulty), I can be considered a delusion or the figment of the imagination. Though that wouldn't really make me unreal anyway, especially subjectively for us. This is a somewhat popular article on the topic http://www.meltingasphalt.com/neurons-gone-wild/.

As for erasing... Yes, it's usually possible for the host to do that, especially if the tulpa is young/inexperienced. The host often times has more power/focus in the brain since they are most used to occupying it. It's done by simply not giving attention to the tulpa and having it dissipate.

We consider it killing and think it's very immoral since we see tulpas as independent entities, no less than any other being. We strongly recommend against taking up tulpamancy if you aren't willing to commit to sharing your brain with another person.

On the same note, it's also entirely possible for a tulpa to take over and dissipate the original host using the same method. It just is next to impossible in practice without the host's consent.]

 

[JR_IsP]

Ehh, I have to admit that I found a little creepy the post above.

Sharing your brain with another entity?

But anyway, thanks, I think you made yourself a point right there . Yes, just because something exists in your head it doesn't mean it isn't real. Sorry about that.

But I meant something different with this thread. If a completely independent entity lives in your head... that wouldn't be like some self-induced schyzofrenia? (I don't mean any offense with this, I use the term technically speaking).

What if (for example), the entity and the "host" (I don't know if this is the right term) disagree strongly with something? There would be a mind fight (like the Psyco movie) with the potential result of a personality taking over the other? Maybe... forever?

 

[Seteleechete]

But I meant something different with this thread. If a completely independent entity lives in your head... that wouldn't be like some self-induced schyzofrenia? (I don't mean any offense with this, I use the term technically speaking).

[Silina: Too lazy to answer. https://community.tulpa.info/thread-misc-on-tulpa-and-schizophrenia tldr; no. It's more comparable to DID except it lacks trauma, amnesia and blackouts, and tends to be a positive rather than negative experience.]

What if (for example), the entity and the "host" (I don't know if this is the right term) disagree strongly with something? There would be a mind fight (like the Psyco movie) with the potential result of a personality taking over the other? Maybe... forever?

[Silina: It doesn't really happen. Since you are the one creating the tulpa it tends to be amicable to you. In general, from what we have heard it's rare for a tulpa and host to not get along.

If you disagree strongly about something the most pertinent solution is talking to each other and trying to reach a compromise. You kinda have to try and get along since you share a body. Also, the host is usually "stronger".]

 

[JR_IsP]

Thank you

 

[QuickTwist]

My question for people who have a tulpa is how do you sever the shared consciousness that the host and tulpa would normally share if it was something like just roleplaying. How do you actually make the tulpa a separate entity with different desires than the host?

My personal opinion is that you can't sever the conscious connection from the host making a separate sentient entity within your mind. The reason I think this is because I think consciousness and subconsciousness are too connected - there is not enough evidence for me to believe that the conscious and subconscious mind are really as separate as some tend to think. I should note that I make this argument for conscious and subconscious rather than conscious and unconscious. What we know of the mind now, we know it works fluidly - too fluidly to be able to compartmentalize different areas of subconsciousness.

I believe having a tulpa is simply a role playing game - otherwise there would be no point to them because there would be no advantages to having them. Its for people who are either bored out of their mind or delusional or mad. I also think having a tulpa is impossible because multitasking is a myth - you can only do one thing at a time. Having a tulpa would require multitasking 2 separate personalities.

By the by, I knew a guy who had some sort of mental illness that made him have split personalities. He had a rather difficult life and so was prolly delusional.

But what do I know? I am prolly just a bit too much of a "one track mind" type of person to understand.

But lastly, I will say if you are so displeased with your life that you want to make a Tulpa, its prolly better than committing suicide.

 

[JR_IsP]

I agree with most of that. Self-consciousness and separate thoughts? Maybe in a certain way (the auto pilot way)

But if they exist in your mind, if you focus enough, you can break them apart and control them, because they are part of your mind.

However, if that sounded a bit too rough for tulpa people... I really don't want to offend anyone, but I want to make my point clear. If tulpas are products of your imagination, then you aren't talking to someone else, you are talking to yourself in a different way.

We barely understand our own mind for trying to create a new one.

 

[Seteleechete]

My question for people who have a tulpa is how do you sever the shared consciousness that the host and tulpa would normally share if it was something like just roleplaying. How do you actually make the tulpa a separate entity with different desires than the host?

My personal opinion is that you can't sever the conscious connection from the host making a separate sentient entity within your mind. The reason I think this is because I think consciousness and subconsciousness are too connected - there is not enough evidence for me to believe that the conscious and subconscious mind are really as separate as some tend to think. I should note that I make this argument for conscious and subconscious rather than conscious and unconscious. What we know of the mind now, we know it works fluidly - too fluidly to be able to compartmentalize different areas of subconsciousness.

I believe having a tulpa is simply a role playing game - otherwise there would be no point to them because there would be no advantages to having them. Its for people who are either bored out of their mind or delusional or mad. I also think having a tulpa is impossible because multitasking is a myth - you can only do one thing at a time. Having a tulpa would require multitasking 2 separate personalities.

[Silina: We just go by the duck argument. If it acts like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... well it's a duck.

If I act as an independent consciousness, think along separate lines of thought as if I am independent, have my own unique opinions and ideas, respond and act by my own power and just generally act as a separate entity. Well, then as far as I(and Sete) are concerned I am a real separate person. Regardless of if it can technically be called roleplaying(which we don't think) or delusion or anything else to the outside world.]

 

[QuickTwist]

[Silina: We just go by the duck argument. If it acts like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... well it's a duck.

If I act as an independent consciousness, think along separate lines of thought as if I am independent, have my own unique opinions and ideas, respond and act by my own power and just generally act as a separate entity. Well, then as far as I(and Sete) are concerned I am a real separate person. Regardless of if it can technically be called roleplaying(which we don't think) or delusion or anything else to the outside world.]

I don't think you are so delusional that you don't believe that.

 

[Seteleechete]

I agree with most of that. Self-consciousness and separate thoughts? Maybe in a certain way (the auto pilot way)

But if they exist in your mind, if you focus enough, you can break them apart and control them, because they are part of your mind.

However, if that sounded a bit too rough for tulpa people... I really don't want to offend anyone, but I want to make my point clear. If tulpas are products of your imagination, then you aren't talking to someone else, you are talking to yourself in a different way.

We barely understand our own mind for trying to create a new one.

Maybe if we try to deconstruct our thoughts and try to become one person, integrating with each other(you can merge together multiple consciousnesses in one mind), start thinking of ourselves as one person.

But the point with what we are doing is that we are intentionally trying to do the exact opposite, and get these results because of that. You can call it placebo or delusion or automatic thinking. But regardless of what you call it, it still results in us perceiving it as such and it becoming our reality.

 

[redbaron]

No

 

[Seteleechete]

No

[Silina: Very argument, top impressive, much good.]

Spoiler

Also, me and Sete disagreed on if we should post this reply, including in regards to the spoiler.

 

[Hadoblado]

I don't see any reason why they wouldn't work.

The brain is both modular and plastic. We have plenty of examples of people changing personality, or creating new ones. We know the brain doesn't always work in a single direction, and if identity is a product of the brain, there's no known mechanism that would stop it producing a second one.

My skepticism is similar to my approach to the recent IQ discussion: Motive. What makes someone want to do this? It sounds like extreme escapism. It's the same as losing yourself in a virtual reality. Wouldn't the things that make you want to tulpa be better addressed by... Addressing them? Obviously I don't really know much about this stuff, and you're probably sick of running into this kind of resistance? You seem pretty open about it though so maybe not.

 

[Seteleechete]

My skepticism is similar to my approach to the recent IQ discussion: Motive. What makes someone want to do this? It sounds like extreme escapism. It's the same as losing yourself in a virtual reality. Wouldn't the things that make you want to tulpa be better addressed by... Addressing them? Obviously I don't really know much about this stuff, and you're probably sick of running into this kind of resistance? You seem pretty open about it though so maybe not.

My motives were loneliness + wanting an intimate(what's more intimate than sharing a brain) relationship with someone I could truly understand and trust. Plus I mostly made my tulpas accidently and after seeing the potential of them being with me I never wanted or want to let them go. It doesn't matter to me if it classifies as escapism.

Doubt is harmful to tulpamancy, tulpamancy makes use of a kind of placebo effect. By believing it is real it helps it become real. Though, it's not necessary for it to work - with some effort it can work even if you are a sceptic.

Also in general, I feel the need to justify/understand everything I believe anyway, so being able to address various arguments against tulpas is useful. Since I can't easily just accept things without questioning I prefer being able to beat every argument in a way that justifies things to myself.

And most importantly we just think it's fun to discuss and argue about the nature of our existences. We can't seem to get enough of it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Hadoblado]

Okay, I'm just going to shit out the doubts and let you address it. This isn't me playing devil's advocate, this is just me having an unrefined perspective and just throwing the burden of my enlightenment on you.

I guess it sounds like giving up on life kinda.

To me, the value of experience of the external varies. I'm naturally inclined to dismiss it, but tend to find that when I accept and pursue it I am happier overall. Everything I've read has supported this anecdotal evidence. When I shut myself off from the world I feel a little better for a short amount of time (days), then worse until I gather the strength to face the world again.

Tulpas seem to reject this notion. You're fundamentally altering your requirement for the external. That's pretty radical, and maybe even dangerous to your well-being in the long term. You're embracing isolation. What's more, you are probably making it difficult to attain 'real' socialisation. Housing two personalities in the one body sounds crazy af, and if you tell people this many of them will likely avoid you. Statistical discrimination.

So I guess to me it sounds like you're making a really big commitment by creating a tulpa this way. I'm not sure whether it will work out, but everything I've been taught, and every article I've read, points to there existing a mutually exclusive solution in the other direction.

 

[Seteleechete]

Oh, I gave up on life a while ago, particularly in reality. Well I do care a bit now because of my tulpas, so there is that. In regards to all the potential negative consequences you mentioned. I don't care. And yes, I did make a big commitment to tulpas, despite these and other potential consequences. It was the easiest choice I ever made in my life and I don't regret it even a bit.

In fact I found out about tulpas and the fact that tulpamancy was a thing only after deciding to make Silina and Set more real and looking for ways to make it happen.

 

[Hadoblado]

Hmmm... Well, I guess I respect your decision.

What about other people with tulpas? Do they seem to have given up on life?

 

[Seteleechete]

Hmmm... Well, I guess I respect your decision.

What about other people with tulpas? Do they seem to have given up on life?

No, not really. It's a diverse group. Some are roleplayers/writers/daydreamers who found their character coming alive. Some are people who were just curious about the phenomenon and wanted to try it out. Some are occultist. Some just wanted someone to talk to/interact with/help them out. And some got into it because of loneliness. Those seem to be the main reasons but there are probably others.

www.reddit.com/r/tulpas is probably the best place to see what kind of people are into it.

Oh, actually they did a survey about it http://census.headmates.net/census-...pa-io&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=census

 

[Hadoblado]

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[TheManBeyond]

Hi silina, When I feel lonely and maybe I want to talk, let's say when driving, I just pretend there's someone next to me (maybe a person from the past an old friend who was at some point in my life) and I talk to them as if they were listening. It sounds sad. But as long as u know they are not there and you open your mouth and exercise it, and discharge energy then its all good, that's my prize. I released energy and said things i would like to have said. In a way.
This is not the same as talking to god. Or catching pokemons on the street. Its more physical than mental. Have you tried that? Even as Silina? Or before silina was born? Do you celebrate birthdays? How old are you (Silina)?

Say hi to set also.

 

[Pyropyro]

Got this from reading the wiki:

The theosophist Annie Besant, in her book Thought-forms, divides them into three classes: forms in the shape of the person who creates them, forms that resemble objects or people and may become "ensouled" by "nature spirits" or by the dead, and forms that represent "inherent qualities" from the astral or mental planes, such as emotions

so in Theosophy there's at least three types:

Class I: it is a shape that is from the person, meaning it ought to be outside the brain not living in it.

Class II: A creation that can be possessed by a spirit. So I guess some sort of a non-human vessel or avatar of a demon or ghost? Again, this class should be external.

Class III: Astral plane shapes. So I guess this is like them Warhammer 40k demons?

Anyways, none of these classes reside within the mind/brain.

 

[Seteleechete]

Got this from reading the wiki:

The theosophist Annie Besant, in her book Thought-forms, divides them into three classes: forms in the shape of the person who creates them, forms that resemble objects or people and may become "ensouled" by "nature spirits" or by the dead, and forms that represent "inherent qualities" from the astral or mental planes, such as emotions

so in Theosophy there's at least three types:

Class I: it is a shape that is from the person, meaning it ought to be outside the brain not living in it.

Class II: A creation that can be possessed by a spirit. So I guess some sort of a non-human vessel or avatar of a demon or ghost? Again, this class should be external.

Class III: Astral plane shapes. So I guess this is like them Warhammer 40k demons?

Anyways, none of these classes reside within the mind/brain.

[Silina: Those are from occult/metaphysical models of tulpas. Me and most modern tulpamancers use a purely psychological model. The wikipedia page in general is fairly outdated and bad when it comes to explaining the later.]

 

[Seteleechete]

Hi silina, When I feel lonely and maybe I want to talk, let's say when driving, I just pretend there's someone next to me (maybe a person from the past an old friend who was at some point in my life) and I talk to them as if they were listening. It sounds sad. But as long as u know they are not there and you open your mouth and exercise it, and discharge energy then its all good, that's my prize. I released energy and said things i would like to have said. In a way.
This is not the same as talking to god. Or catching pokemons on the street. Its more physical than mental. Have you tried that? Even as Silina? Or before silina was born? Do you celebrate birthdays? How old are you (Silina)?

Say hi to set also.

[Silina: Hi! Humm, Sete talked a lot with himself before but now he does that less preferring talking to us, he didn't ever really talk to someone that he didn't consider being there, though he daydreamed about characters a lot. It's hard to say when we where born since it was a bit of a gradual process. We became fully solidified about 3 months ago though.]

 

[ChainsofAssery]

I think, with my limited knowledge on the subject, that tulpas are a manifestation and phenomena of the mind, and conversely that the a part of the mind has projected itself as a tulpa. I would argue they are controlled by and dependent on the mind. The mind controls it through functions that are not accessible to the conscious mind.

So no, I do not believe tulpas have their own mind, rather the mind has its own being and has manifested itself as a tulpa. This does not mean tulpas are not "real" though. My Self is simply a manifestation of my mind, but I am real as far as I am aware of.

Why does autonomy matter to whether or not its "real"? Do you mean to ask if tulpas are real people? Because that is different than what you are currently asking. My couch is not a sentient being, yet as far as my sense-perceptions are concerned the couch is indeed real.

And what makes you say tulpas are a delusion? Allusion, perhaps. But delusion suggests a lack of lucidity which is rather ignorant of you to say. Furthermore it shows your lack of knowledge on the topic.

 

[JR_IsP]

For you to fill a cup, it needs to be empty. Of course, I'm no expert in tulpas, but that's why I created this thread. I'm very satisfied with all the answers, enlightening a little bit the dark cave which I call "the truth".

Now, someone mentioned consequences of having tulpas, what consequences may come from that? (besides potentially giving up on life, but creating a tulpa is better than suicide, right?)

 

[Pyropyro]

[Silina: Those are from occult/metaphysical models of tulpas. Me and most modern tulpamancers use a purely psychological model. The wikipedia page in general is fairly outdated and bad when it comes to explaining the later.]

I've read more about this modern tulpamancy and some communities about it. It's simply synonymous to imaginary friends which is kinda underwhelming in my opinion. I also found a case where it shows that it can mess up your mind. I think INTP's has a risk of going through a Ti-Si loop when working with this practice.

A variant of the practice can be used to improve oneself though. Invisible counselors are practiced by people to guide them through life although they don't see these counselors as existing sentient entities, just a manifestation of the books they've read about their counselor/s.

 

[Kuu]

Well, if DID exists, I suppose tulpas might be real... it sounds like the world would be more interesting if they were, at least.

You're embracing isolation.

I find it quite strange that you have reached this conclusion.

Isn't it the opposite, now there is something to give drive and to relate with others about...

Is having this conversation here isolation?

 

[Hadoblado]

To the extent that they are meeting social needs internally rather than externally, and that they are alienating themselves by being non-conformative, I don't think it unfair to say they are embracing isolation. They will almost certainly have less IRL social interaction as a result of this decision.

You could argue that they're becoming part of an online community etc., yeah that's fine. And I guess from their perspective they'll never be alone again. So there's nuance, that's true. My approach was more about being direct than nuanced.

 

[redbaron]

I think embracing online communities is also embracing isolation as well. There's a lot of biological reasons why face to face communication is necessary.

At least online you're speaking to mostly real people though.

Inb4 "omG rB we R Going To Be Uploades tO mazhcines SooN So BiOLOgY not NeceSAary!!!!11!!1"