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Are men and women naturally different psychologically?

shortbuss

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I've taken a Neuropych course, and have a general knowledge of psychology from being raised by a parent that majored in the subject. I remember my neuropsych course specifically defined what modern science considers some actual, proven differences in male and female cognition. I would recommend maybe pick up reading about this subject.

I think the differences in men and women are made exaggerated by our culture, and the sort of 'echo chamber' as the 24-hour news cycle likes to call it, that comes from that culture constantly being thrown in our face very emphatically every time humans send messages and information to each other electronically (by tv and movies, internet, advertisements even...). We are more bombarded by the opinions of our culture/s than ever before. Humans also like to simplify things by thinking categorically in how they understand the world. It's easier to conclude something like 'that person is a man, and men are all pricks' than 'he is an individual, and has unique qualities that may or may not fall into the male gender role.' People like to box you into a definition and label you as if for easier storage in their sometimes frankly narrow minds' eye. That is why I think of things in general terms instead of absolutes, because I see it as sloppy, careless thinking.

From what I have read male and female minds are essentially comparable with small, truly minor differences that both offer impressive implications for each gender's cognitive aptitudes IN GENERAL.

I do remember women were supposedly noted as having GENERALLY better language skills, and men were said to have better spacial thinking skills...I'm not even sure if I'm remembering that right though, so don't take my word.

Oh, and as far as the traditional I.Q. score differences, here is the skinny on that data. Men tend to have more extreme scores on a bell curve. Men are more likely to be either very smart, or very slow. Women's scores have less extreme variations though. We are spread more evenly, being perhaps more likely to be a bit slower than average, or a bit smarter than average. When you average these two categories, men and women, and compare the two results, you find that this makes our gender respective I.Q. averages remarkably similar.

The 'Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus' ideology really aggravates me. It's a gross oversimplification that people believes because it has a moderately prosaic ring to it. It'd be like believing an advertisement just because it had a jingle you found catchy. Not only is a stupid, lazy conclusion, but IMO it is also a harmful one (although sometimes just deeply annoying). I mean, who HASN'T been annoyed, or even put at a real disadvantage at some point when something was assumed or expected of them because of their race, gender or even class status? It seems like a manipulative ideology crafted by our oligarchy, or whatever it is, cynically pitting the poor against one another so they won't notice the rich robbing them blind. Men and women are far more alike than the narrators of our cultural dialogues seldom admit. Maybe it's just a conspiracy theory, but it's no theory that the Divide & Conquer strategy HAS been used in the past by ancient conquerors and powerful elite. Whatever it is I'm not buying into it, and neither should you.
 

IdeasNotTheProblem

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We found that different parts of the brain activate with different spatial and temporal profiles for men and women when they are faced with performance-related stress,” says J.J. Wang, PhD, Assistant Professor or Radiology and Neurology, and lead author of the study.
These findings suggest that stress responses may be fundamentally different in each gender, sometimes characterized as “fight-or-flight” in men and “tend-and-befriend” in women. Evolutionarily, males may have had to confront a stressor either by overcoming or fleeing it, while women may have instead responded by nurturing offspring and affiliating with social groups that maximize the survival of the species in times of adversity."

http://psychcentral.com/news/2007/11/20/response-to-stress-is-gender-specific/1559.html

Before Christianity there were several matriarchal societies. Mostly indigenous people wiped out by the church and possibly ancient Egypt. It may be best not to bring this up if you're a women. They'll burn you at the stake.
 

Jennywocky

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That is the same thing that drew me to art. It was far more of a challenge to understand than more concrete subjects, and even if I had a thousand years to study it, I would probably still never fully understand. But trying to break down the logic behind it brings me much joy.

I feel the same about people, I will never really be able to understand other people, but studying how they work truly amazes me.

Contrary to most INTPs I have met, deep down in my Fe there is a very strong love for all of mankind. Though, it is only from a distance.

As I've gotten older, my attachment have on occasion gotten more specific, but I tend to do much better with loving humanity rather than investing a lot of time and energy in very specific relationships. Real relationships are difficult and take a lot of commitment; but I care about people in general and find myself helping/offering support to those in need.


It only seems natural to me that a Thinking type would want to be in a relationship with a Feeling type. I would feel incomplete in a relationship with two Thinking types.

Some people enjoy the two-Thinker relationship, but there's too much natural distancing in there for me.

What I look for is a girl that can take initiative when it comes to emotional things, and through her emotions allow me to feel safe expressing my own emotions. Basically giving me the opportunity to let down those walls around my Fe.

That makes sense to me.

It is my job to take care of the logistical things such as approaching her, initiate topics in conversation, set up dates, and basically take care of that end of things so she is free to just feel good and have fun.

I am by no means saying that I take control of things to the point where she has no say. It is just more of a responsibility that is on my shoulder, to make sure this stuff gets taken care of. In my eyes it has nothing to do with control.

That makes sense too. There' s a lot of divvying up the workload in a relationship so to speak and it helps when each can bring something different to the table. Not that it needs to be an area of control. It is simply your contribution to the relationship, and typically people are willing to modify their contributions to better suit the other person if someone is a problem.

I don't know how many other Thinking types feel this way, but I would think it is a good amount of them. Then again, maybe it has a lot to do with the fact that I have a strong but very immature Fe side that I don't feel like I can let out.

I guess a more mature INTP who has a better grasp on his Fe probably wouldn't view things in such a way, and could probably have a very successfull relationship with another Thinking type.

Well, I think I'm only as decent as I am because I've been with Feelers, and they brought me out of myself. It was partly getting more used to how that view of life works and putting myself into their shoes (so I can "see" that way now when I when I want to) and even developed some desire for it, since it was attached to those meaningful relationships; and partly learning also there was no shame in it or need to fear it.

In the future I truly hope that I am not so reliant on someone else to help me bring out my own emotions, but I guess untill I mature a bit more I will always be drawn to women that are very feeling by nature.

hey, it's a journey... and while you are learning that, you will be teaching someone else the thing(s) you are good at. It all works out.

I don't see why it would be much different for a female INTP or any Thinking type with a guy that is a very Feeling type. I know a lot of guys that get stressed out dealing with the logistics of relationships and just want to be able to feel. A guy like that seems like a good match for an INTP or other serious thinking girl, because he could initiate things emotionally for her while she does what she does best and takes care of logistics.

That's kind of what happened with my last BF. SOmetimes I feel bad I can't contribute more, because the relational stuff isn't necessarily my natural impulse -- I love humanity but tend to be very independent in how I approach my personal life. I want to learn to be closer, but at the same time I can't match what an F guy can give in that area, that's not my talent area. So I might feel a lot of things inside that do not always come out spontaneously and warmly.

But I have that adaptability trait, where I can sometimes mirror the person I'm with. So sometimes I do try to match them. Still, if the relationship works, it is because I feel appreciated for who I am and that I have something I can contribute that I am good at; if I start feeling bad because I perceive they're frustrated with me because I can't be more like them, then the relationship starts to sour. I want my partner to be happy and don't like letting people down, and (something that seems typically with women at least, not sure about guys) I tend to internalize it as something being wrong with me when I can't do that.

I still think to make a girl feel like a girl, the guy should allways make the first move though.

That actually appeals to me on an inner level, only because guys often aren't clear about their commitment sometime, and it reassures me that they want to be with me and I'm a priority to them. I don't have an issue with initiating some things, but I like at least for it to be equal, and if someone I'm with actually initiates, that is a good sign. It also helps me be more emotionally open, because I feel I can trust him. If he seems indifferent, well, I don't want to get my heart trashed and invest myself in something that is not reciprocated.

I theorize that in the end we could all overcome these things by being more intouch with our own weaker traits. I do however think that we need others around us, others that contrast us, to help us grow into that more mature person we can be.

Totally agree. We teach each other things. My marriage and parenting actually taught me the most in life, more than any book. Books, you just read and learn from and can put down when you feel like it, and you tend to read stuff that appeals to you; but it takes commitment to stay in a relationship especially when the other person is different. Iron striking iron, and all that...

I am just curious, which side of that coin do you more relate to?

As far as art? I have been on both sides of the table. as an artist, I like someone who gives me the parameters of what they want but understands I need freedom within the scope of the project to experiment and follow the vision. As someone contracting with an artist, I learned the hard way that my main control should be exerted in choosing the artist, but I need to give latitude as well as clear parameters and then let them loose and be happy with the result. Micromanaging art projects just ends badly.
 

BigApplePi

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men and women naturally differences

Do you think that these differences are inherent or that they have been built by our assignation of gender roles?
I just have to post this. Has it been said before? It must have been. This should be a simple theory.

Assuming statistically the norm, who is the baby closest to? Answer: the mom. Therefore on growing up the boy will be attracted to the sex most like the mom: females. He will go with this attraction whether innately or culturally hetersexual. What about females? They will feel closer than males do with males to their fellow females. Females will be culturally directed toward males like their father. This difference will cause males to desire females directly while females will be more reserved and indirect.

Any innate or cultural homosexuality will alter this scenario. Afterthought: anatomy/ physiology promotes heterosexuaily and culture only facilitates this. A break in the hetero steps allows for an opening to homosexuality.
 

Jennywocky

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Re: men and women naturally differences

Assuming statistically the norm, who is the baby closest to? Answer: the mom. Therefore on growing up the boy will be attracted to the sex most like the mom: females. He will go with this attraction whether innately or culturally hetersexual. What about females? They will feel closer than males do with males to their fellow females. Females will be culturally directed toward males like their father. This difference will cause males to desire females directly while females will be more reserved and indirect.

What's ironic is that religious conservatives blame male homosexuality on an absent father and a too-involved mother. The boy spends TOO much time with his mother, so he wants to be like her... according to THAT heavily promoted theory. (And they're getting it from shrinks back in the Freudian period.)

Yeah, how do we like smokin' dem apples? Crazy world out there.

EDIT:
Ran across THIS today ironically, about conversion therapy and it touches on what I said above.

http://news.yahoo.com/5-things-know-gay-conversion-therapy-132242746.html
 

Tony3d

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As I've gotten older, my attachment have on occasion gotten more specific, but I tend to do much better with loving humanity rather than investing a lot of time and energy in very specific relationships. Real relationships are difficult and take a lot of commitment; but I care about people in general and find myself helping/offering support to those in need.

It sounds like your Fe has some pretty similar patterns to mine. It isn't something I find very often at all in INTPs.

Honestly, I find that most feeling types don't even share that same basic love for humanity as a whole, I think it might be because they don't have that same ability to distance themselves from everything like INTPs do.

I have difficulty feeling anything for the people close to me though, because I tend to hate the way they treat me personally. I have been hurt too many times by people that I cared about, sp I have shelled off that part of me.

Well, I think I'm only as decent as I am because I've been with Feelers, and they brought me out of myself. It was partly getting more used to how that view of life works and putting myself into their shoes (so I can "see" that way now when I when I want to) and even developed some desire for it, since it was attached to those meaningful relationships; and partly learning also there was no shame in it or need to fear it.

hey, it's a journey... and while you are learning that, you will be teaching someone else the thing(s) you are good at. It all works out.

You just hit the bullseye on what I have felt has been missing from my life for so long, and the very reason I have been trying to understand this stuff.

That is what I want...

But I have that adaptability trait, where I can sometimes mirror the person I'm with. So sometimes I do try to match them.

Oh, how much I love having a strong Ne trait. I think it is probably the most reedeming characteristic of this messed up personality of mine.

I want my partner to be happy and don't like letting people down, and (something that seems typically with women at least, not sure about guys) I tend to internalize it as something being wrong with me when I can't do that.

I think it is a trait more typically found in females, but in the same way you share certain traditionally male traits, I very much identify with this trait.

Though in the end, I think it is simply a result of our Si trait that causes this, so maybe more guys feel this but just don't vocalize it.

In the end, that whole quote above sounds very XSFJ like to me, which I have always felt a very strong XSFJ Shadow presence whenever my thinking side gets too stressed to deal with a problem. I don't understand it, it is immature, but it is very strong indeed.

I don't want to get my heart trashed and invest myself in something that is not reciprocated.

No one really wants to put themselves out there and risk the hurt of rejection, but I personally feel that women already have to put up with enough bullshit in the realm of relationships, that guys should man up and just bite this bullet.

Be a man, show that you have enough confidence to take that risk, and it will always make the lady feel more ladylike because of it.

Totally agree. We teach each other things. My marriage and parenting actually taught me the most in life, more than any book. Books, you just read and learn from and can put down when you feel like it, and you tend to read stuff that appeals to you; but it takes commitment to stay in a relationship especially when the other person is different. Iron striking iron, and all that...

There was never a more depressing moment in this sad little robots life, than when I had come to the conclusion that I would never be good enough, that I would never be able to learn, that I would never be in a relationship, and there was nothing I could do about it.

But logical understanding triumphs in the end. Through understanding myself better and understanding the very nature of relationships I will someday be able to figure it all out.




But anyways, thanks for helping me understand a little bit better.

I actually linked this thread to an ISFJ guy that I know that is having trouble understanding an INTP girl he likes a lot. Maybe it will help him understand a bit more as well.
 

Jennywocky

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It sounds like your Fe has some pretty similar patterns to mine. It isn't something I find very often at all in INTPs.

Same experience. I think we are at one end of the spectrum here. I've found the "median" group gets what I'm saying, the really T-based and enneagram Self-Proctectors have more trouble with it.

Honestly, I find that most feeling types don't even share that same basic love for humanity as a whole, I think it might be because they don't have that same ability to distance themselves from everything like INTPs do.

I was just talking with an ITJ on another forum and he doesn't seem to have any understanding of it -- you either have very personal committed connection or no connection, it seems.

I connected with comments made in The Matrix Reloaded (and I mention it just because it was one of the only times I heard it stated so succinctly), during the Architect speech -- about how the previous Ones had a connection/affection for humanity but it was on a broad level, where they were willing to sacrifice for humanity as if it were a person in nature, whereas Neo's affection was for a specific individual.

I want the connection, but my natural distancing makes individual connection hard; I feel strong empathy for individuals when I hear their story and will want to do what I can for them, but I don't like being tied down in daily obligations to people in general. It's like I "bring them inside me" if that makes any sense, they're now part of my experience and thought process and I feel empathy and want to help how I can; but it doesn't mean I want to be in a blow by blow tedious daily interaction.

I have difficulty feeling anything for the people close to me though, because I tend to hate the way they treat me personally. I have been hurt too many times by people that I cared about, sp I have shelled off that part of me.

I'm sorry to hear that. I've actually been very hurt by my family too and some friends, since I rocked the status quo boat. I still have trouble locking them out of my internal world; but externally, I have put up boundaries less out of fear or hate and more just because I can't afford to have them drain/derail my life so badly.


Oh, how much I love having a strong Ne trait. I think it is probably the most reedeming characteristic of this messed up personality of mine.

N's kind of what allowed me to survive... and without becoming a bitter old hag about things. It makes me happy daily, and leaves me able to laugh at some pretty hard things. It also gives me hope to keep going when things seem rationally like they're stuck; I'm constantly seeking and seeing possible avenues forward.

I think it is a trait more typically found in females, but in the same way you share certain traditionally male traits, I very much identify with this trait.

Though in the end, I think it is simply a result of our Si trait that causes this, so maybe more guys feel this but just don't vocalize it.

In the end, that whole quote above sounds very XSFJ like to me, which I have always felt a very strong XSFJ Shadow presence whenever my thinking side gets too stressed to deal with a problem. I don't understand it, it is immature, but it is very strong indeed.

I've mentioned it on different forums and described it sometimes in detail, but I was raised by ISFJs -- a signficant number of people in my life were ISFJ (mom, sister, ex). So I've noticed a strong bend toward IFJ in my approach, and in fact was for some time trying to live that kind of life but it just left me empty. I can't be an IFJ, but I can use traits of IFJ to help me in my own life.

No one really wants to put themselves out there and risk the hurt of rejection, but I personally feel that women already have to put up with enough bullshit in the realm of relationships, that guys should man up and just bite this bullet.

Be a man, show that you have enough confidence to take that risk, and it will always make the lady feel more ladylike because of it.

I respond to that when I experience it. I hate dragging it back to sex function, but I feel like we're prepped to some degree by biology -- it's hard to receive when someone is not penetrating. It's hard to nurture and shape life when there's no life offering itself to be nourished and strengthened.

Again, I don't like dictates of how a particular individual "has to be," but I think many guys feel empowered when they take initiative and succeed; it's a matter of potency. That's not necessarily what drives me; I'm more into the engagement and figuring out how to shape and feed that with who I am, to make it stronger.

I actually linked this thread to an ISFJ guy that I know that is having trouble understanding an INTP girl he likes a lot. Maybe it will help him understand a bit more as well.

That would be cool if he did. Note I'm kind of a blend, as stated above; I know INTP women across a spectrum of behavior; so it might not work for everyone, but it might still be helpful.
 

kora

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Re: men and women naturally differences

I just have to post this. Has it been said before? It must have been. This should be a simple theory.

Assuming statistically the norm, who is the baby closest to? Answer: the mom. Therefore on growing up the boy will be attracted to the sex most like the mom: females. He will go with this attraction whether innately or culturally hetersexual. What about females? They will feel closer than males do with males to their fellow females. Females will be culturally directed toward males like their father. This difference will cause males to desire females directly while females will be more reserved and indirect.

Any innate or cultural homosexuality will alter this scenario. Afterthought: anatomy/ physiology promotes heterosexuaily and culture only facilitates this. A break in the hetero steps allows for an opening to homosexuality.

That's a brilliant point, it never even crossed my mind before. Off to do research, everyone's been very helpful thank you, I've written loads of your posts down. Keep them coming if you stumble across anything new.
 

kora

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Yes, they are.

You're the second person to do that, please expand or go away :beatyou:
as a self-respecting INTP you must back up your claims
 

Jennywocky

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You're the second person to do that, please expand or go away :beatyou:
as a self-respecting INTP you must back up your claims

Maybe he's a closet INTJ!
 

crippli

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You may also want to look at the history component. The writings. The pen is mightier then the sword, and so on. "The knowledge". To what degree this aspect interact with your question.

Som random rambling on the subject.
Around the world, what is the common view? What do people know about being a man or woman? Stop 10 random people and ask them if they feel like man/woman. Most/if not everything of that knowledge is learned. Passes on from generation to generation. Some will be resistant to these teachings, due to various reasons. But most will take it in. It's difficult to change this aspect. Takes many generations. Sometimes there are major reality shifts. As when the monotheistic religions was introduced about 2000 years ago through force. Even with force, meaning you execute everyone who is opposed, and burn all old knowledge. It still takes centuries to redefine the roles, and hierarchies. As it happens, right now, it appears to me we have another major shift in the vest, done possible without violence, but due to media and Internet. The old knowledge is difficult to erase once invented. Blacks still suffer from the US abuse when the Spaniards invaded America, and the import of blacks and slavery later. That wasn't nice. But the legacy and role definitions is perhaps worse. And as long as this knowledge is alive they will pay a price. I've noticed in most kids, their mind is relatively free up to around 5-7 years old. But then they change, as social consciousness evolves. Basically, the mind appears to me to become poisoned. Imagination is reduced, and "reality" takes over. But this "reality" is also an invented one. And pretty boring to boot. Personally I am amazed that so many people buy into it. I suppose it could be that the first imprint isn't so easy to deal with. In any case. There is a change. But not sure in what way we are going to be naturally different tomorrow. Science have a tendency to write things in even more black/white then religious beliefs. And will probably be even harder to disintegrate what it gets wrong, or what is usually the case, how science is misinterpreted. Believers will always believe the material that is presented them, especially if it comes with a boon.
 

Vrecknidj

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List factors you think could influence inherent psychological differences such as hormones. Include studies if you think they are relevant.
I have posted a link to a specific book on this forum, perhaps 30 or 40 times. I will do it again.

http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Nature-Maternal-Instincts-Species/dp/0345408934

I'm not going to summarize, I'm not going to argue or defend. (I've posted it too many times in too many places to go into that again.)

People will probably see the post and scroll on, and I'm fine with that.

But, if you want to know more than you currently do, and if you want to know yourself more than you currently do, then stop what you're doing and get the book and read it. Twice.

Dave
 

kora

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