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Apparently there's a new argument for theism called 'psychophysical harmony'.

onesteptwostep

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I still don't feel I have a strong understanding of it, so I'll be posting this video instead:


To summarize, I think what the argument is that there isn't a strong explanation for why our mental states (perception) correspond to the physical world, and that theism offers a simple explanation for why our perception matches with physical reality. There's a number of way that physical reality can reflect in our subjective consciousness, but by chance, we have perceptions that allow us to view physical reality the way we percieve it now, i.e. there is harmony. If there was disharmony, we could pursue acts which can harm us, yet, the harmony allows us to pursue acts which are advantagous (or rather, natural) to us. How is this possible, and why is this possible? When asked the following questions, it seems there is no definitive answer from a naturalistic perspective yet.

The authors of the paper, Dr Cutter and Dr Crummett, are professors from arguably the most prestigous Christian philosophy school in the world (Norte Dame University). Here's a direct link to their paper: https://philarchive.org/rec/CUTPHA
 

Cognisant

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It's woo, you're not supposed to be able to understand it.

Like Scientology and their "E-meter".
 

dr froyd

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deus ex machina
 

Black Rose

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"E-meter"

Basically, it's just what the CIA has but meant to make you immune to it.

Look at the physiological signals, what makes you uncomfortable, confront it / eliminate it from your system, and wah-la, you can pass any lie detector test.
 

Hadoblado

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I'm not going to watch the video, so I'm just addressing your summary.

Can you describe why evolution is an insufficient explanation for functional perceptual processing? Wouldn't that be the naturalistic perspective?
 

Black Rose

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There need not be any mapping between the physical and non-physical mental states.

In idealism all is mind. So there is no dualism and no need for mapping.

Metabolism is a self-regulating system. The brain / body / cells, do not explode / fall apart because of feedback regulation. When the brain makes mistakes in perception it adjusts so that the signals match what is coming in. And by experimentation we can predict our own actions. I see an apple because my brain adjusts itself until what is inside and the signals outside are the same. We need this to survive. Whatever we perceive we can manipulate either it or ourselves to improve survival. This is and does not need to be physical it is and can be explained as only mental. Mapping is subject object not mental and physical. The object can be just as mental as the subject. Nothing needs to be physical. It is just mental operating on mental.
 

onesteptwostep

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I'm not going to watch the video, so I'm just addressing your summary.

Can you describe why evolution is an insufficient explanation for functional perceptual processing? Wouldn't that be the naturalistic perspective?

The video goes into it, but basically, an evolutionary explanation would only explain how the harmony came about rather than explain what the reason for the harmony is, or why there is a harmony in the first place. It would explain the process of its survival rather than explain why the harmony is as it is. There could equally be an disharmonious match, let's say, that would place sensations of pain in the place of sensations of pleasure, and this reverse match could have existed and be brought up by the process of evolution, if the act of recieving pain or pleasure did not map out harmoniously to the consciousness as sensations of pleasure or pain.

The video goes into this around the 30 minute mark. (28:30 precisely)
Cutter goes on to to say that natural selection wouldn't be able to explain the 'natural law' of why certain acts of pleasure or pain would map out on to the consciousness as it does. He says that this natural law isn't something that's influenced by natural selection, something which deserves an explaination.
 

onesteptwostep

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There need not be any mapping between the physical and non-physical mental states.

In idealism all is mind. So there is no dualism and no need for mapping.

Metabolism is a self-regulating system. The brain / body / cells, do not explode / fall apart because of feedback regulation. When the brain makes mistakes in perception it adjusts so that the signals match what is coming in. And by experimentation we can predict our own actions. I see an apple because my brain adjusts itself until what is inside and the signals outside are the same. We need this to survive. Whatever we perceive we can manipulate either it or ourselves to improve survival. This is and does not need to be physical it is and can be explained as only mental. Mapping is subject object not mental and physical. The object can be just as mental as the subject. Nothing needs to be physical. It is just mental operating on mental.

This is a Berkelian explanation of reality and is something that is quite defensible. However the video I posted operates on epiphenomenalism, which is the view that most people have concerning the mind-body problem. Concerning substances of reality, I would think most people are property dualists, that: the world is composed of just one kind of substancethe physical kind—there exist two distinct kinds of properties: physical properties and mental properties. (per wiki)
 

Black Rose

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Leibniz goes into why causality is a harmony.

The infinitesimals do not interact but simply arrange themselves to be where they are.

Some higher power tells them where to be but they themselves do not mix or merge / touch with any other monad.

The same could be like how a bit never touches another bit but is simply flipped.

A harmony where the reader (head) never touches the bit but somehow knows what the bit state is and then the bits are flipped not by touch but by co-knowing.

(co-knowing): when the state of two entangled particles collapses it cannot be known what state will be chosen by one or the other but always the two-particle will have the opposite state.
 

Black Rose

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The qualia is somehow transferred between "fields".

Qualia is just the unity or belonging to one subject.

But on the nature of fields, we do not know what they are.

They are not matter in the normal sense. But they are not the qualia.

wskdwPl.png


Fields separate but the unity of the self does not.
 

TransientMoment

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The psychophysical harmony argued isn't based on just "matching" reality, as if somehow our brains correlated with reality to match inputs. The real peculiarity is that the experienced states are the same for everyone. That is, I feel pain for the same reasons someone else feels pain, and I feel pleasure for the same reasons someone else feels pleasure (at least biologically, ... it gets complicated for other things).
Evolution would suggest that what is "pain"/"pleasure" for me could entirely by random. It could be argued that humans that found "pleasure" the what others considered "pain" would inevitably choose courses that annihilated themselves, but the fact is that the possibility of such humans coming into existence would still be real, and thus, if evolution were true, we should expect such people to exist. As a note, it's not evidence to point to masochists because they still feel pain even if they "enjoy" it. The mechanics of pain/pleasure get deeper when we go beyond surface stimuli, the latter of which is the main point.
 

Black Rose

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Congenital insensitivity to pain

This lack of pain awareness often leads to an accumulation of wounds, bruises, broken bones, and other health issues that may go undetected.


When people ask if we both see a red apple we can agree mostly.

Forget about color. Is it an apple or is it a duck? The question is silly looking at it this way. Of course and apple is not a duck. So why pain and not pleasure?

Maybe I see a duck and you see and apple, why? The same for pleasure and pain.

What is the pain neural system. What is the pleasure neural system?

Heat cold / rough smooth / sour sweet / red green.

What if all are inverted in some people?

Touch / sound / sight / smell / taste.

Why apple and not a duck? can apple and duck be inverted?

Concetta Antico has been identified as having an ultra rare condition which means she sees 100 million more colours than the average human

Mechanisms are there but they are unclear.

some studies showing that nearly 20% of the population experiences soapy-tasting cilantro

I do!!!

Aphantasia is the inability to visualize. Otherwise known as image-free thinking. People with aphantasia don't create any pictures of familiar objects, people, or places in their mind's eye. Not for thoughts, memories, or images of the future. We lack this quasi-perceptual “picture-it” system completely.

It was developed by psychology professor Russell Hurlburt and requires research participants to report on their inner experience at random times throughout the day. For example, Hurlburt estimates that between 30% and 50% of people frequently experience an inner monologue.Nov 28, 2022

Does Everyone Have an Inner Monologue? - Verywell Mind


it seems we are all not the same. Because of disharmony or because of chemical neural mechanisms? Genetics?

Some people who are blind can echolocate like bats, making clicks with their mouths that help them understand the environment around them.Aug 31, 2017
 

onesteptwostep

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The psychophysical harmony argued isn't based on just "matching" reality, as if somehow our brains correlated with reality to match inputs. The real peculiarity is that the experienced states are the same for everyone. That is, I feel pain for the same reasons someone else feels pain, and I feel pleasure for the same reasons someone else feels pleasure (at least biologically, ... it gets complicated for other things).
Evolution would suggest that what is "pain"/"pleasure" for me could entirely by random. It could be argued that humans that found "pleasure" the what others considered "pain" would inevitably choose courses that annihilated themselves, but the fact is that the possibility of such humans coming into existence would still be real, and thus, if evolution were true, we should expect such people to exist. As a note, it's not evidence to point to masochists because they still feel pain even if they "enjoy" it. The mechanics of pain/pleasure get deeper when we go beyond surface stimuli, the latter of which is the main point.
That's touched a little bit by the argument, but the argument is that the mapping itself is like a law, that when certain sensations are given to someone, it triggers the same region of the brain, which causes us to either enjoy or reject that sensation. There is a mechanical law within how our brain reacts the way it acts, and the point is that naturalism or vis-à-vis evolutionary process cannot provide a conclusive explanation for why that is. If it is a mechanistic law, then obviously it's going to be the same for everyone. The quailia might be different, but even if it were different, the reaction to the experience would be the same, which makes that kind of insight superflous to the question at hand.
 

Hadoblado

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The video goes into it, but basically, an evolutionary explanation would only explain how the harmony came about rather than explain what the reason for the harmony is, or why there is a harmony in the first place. It would explain the process of its survival rather than explain why the harmony is as it is. There could equally be an disharmonious match, let's say, that would place sensations of pain in the place of sensations of pleasure, and this reverse match could have existed and be brought up by the process of evolution, if the act of recieving pain or pleasure did not map out harmoniously to the consciousness as sensations of pleasure or pain.

The video goes into this around the 30 minute mark. (28:30 precisely)
Cutter goes on to to say that natural selection wouldn't be able to explain the 'natural law' of why certain acts of pleasure or pain would map out on to the consciousness as it does. He says that this natural law isn't something that's influenced by natural selection, something which deserves an explaination.
I feel like there's still some confusion.

Evolution explains how it would come to be, which also explains why it is as it is.

The explanation is that everything was tried (pleasure, pain, arousal, what have you) and the stuff that works remains. So if I experienced pain instead of pleasure, such as in the case of exercise, I am less likely to repeat that thing and therefore proportionally remove it as a factor in my survival.

The mapping seems entirely explained by evolution to me. Not sure if I'm being dense or nah. The existence of such states in the first place is iffier IMO.
 

onesteptwostep

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The video goes into it, but basically, an evolutionary explanation would only explain how the harmony came about rather than explain what the reason for the harmony is, or why there is a harmony in the first place. It would explain the process of its survival rather than explain why the harmony is as it is. There could equally be an disharmonious match, let's say, that would place sensations of pain in the place of sensations of pleasure, and this reverse match could have existed and be brought up by the process of evolution, if the act of recieving pain or pleasure did not map out harmoniously to the consciousness as sensations of pleasure or pain.

The video goes into this around the 30 minute mark. (28:30 precisely)
Cutter goes on to to say that natural selection wouldn't be able to explain the 'natural law' of why certain acts of pleasure or pain would map out on to the consciousness as it does. He says that this natural law isn't something that's influenced by natural selection, something which deserves an explaination.
I feel like there's still some confusion.

Evolution explains how it would come to be, which also explains why it is as it is.

The explanation is that everything was tried (pleasure, pain, arousal, what have you) and the stuff that works remains. So if I experienced pain instead of pleasure, such as in the case of exercise, I am less likely to repeat that thing and therefore proportionally remove it as a factor in my survival.

The mapping seems entirely explained by evolution to me. Not sure if I'm being dense or nah. The existence of such states in the first place is iffier IMO.
I think here we're saying that the harmony wasn't something that was mapped out by random coincidence, but a result of mechanistic features that result in the survival of the one experiencing the psychophysical harmony, law, what have you.

By saying that the harmony is some kind of natural law, we're saying that it is something of an a priori corelation rather than something that has been picked by natural selection. What I mean by this is that certain actions would corelate onto the brain for generally all brains. If there was 5 people and we do something to stimulate the brain, the 5 brains would react in an identical way. The subjective quaila may be different, but the physical response or stimuli would be the same. So here, it would seem like there is a law that governs how what actions would evoke a certain response.

I think the crux here is that in a realistic evolutionary scenario that kind of mapping already exists, and that the evolutionary process would merely allow the actions that increase the entity's survival to exist to continue on. But the mapping still exists for every other entity, whether they survive or not, and the harmony or 'law' is not influenced by the process of natural selection.
 

Black Rose

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Stimulas A = S-A
Stimulus B = S-B

S-A != S-B

Nervous system A = NS-A
Nervous system B = NS-B

NS-A = NS-B

NS-A + S-A = Result1 = XA1
NS-A + S-B= Result2 = XB1

NS-B + S-A = Result3 = XA2
NS-B + S-B = Result4 = XB2

XA1 = XA2
XB1 = XB2

XA1 != XB2
XB1 != XA2
 

EndogenousRebel

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My first impression of the first minute is that it's trying to make people as sensitive as possible to certain stimuli.
 

dr froyd

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based on the parts i listened to it sounds very similar to a fine-tuned-universe argument, and thus subject to the anthropic principle?
 

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They play hot potatoe with ideas we don't have answers to which is typical. It's been playing in the background, it certainly implements lots of philosophical ideas, in an order that I was not instructed in, but nonetheless, I'm not sure what to make of it. 23 minutes in will do for me. TE LIVE

**What they are saying is cogent. But my initial impression is still standing. They want people to tune into a specific thing. I guess I have to believe that philosophy can be dangerous, but it's already well known at this point that (meditative) practices makes westeners act more selfishly, though maybe this type of thinking isn't that bad for some people. Probably the shit cults are built on.
 

dr froyd

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when a dog sees a bone and proceeds to chew on it, and it turns out it is indeed chewing on a bone, and we take this as proof of GAAAWD*, perhaps we are overestimating perception, and underestimating the potential natural processes that created it.

*this is intended to be pronounced TV-preacher style
 

The Grey Man

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based on the parts i listened to it sounds very similar to a fine-tuned-universe argument, and thus subject to the anthropic principle?
Cutter and Crummett argue in their paper that, though their psychophysical harmony argument "has some notable similarities with the traditional fine-tuning argument", yet theirs is less vulnerable to the "multiverse response", which invokes the "observation selection effect" (i.e. the anthropic principle):
The key difference between our argument and the fine-tuning argument is that the observation of psychophysical harmony is not strongly associated with an observation selection effect. It is, of course, easy enough to cook up a multiverse hypothesis whose truth would all but guarantee that some universe has harmonious psychophysical laws. For example, we might hypothesize that there is some mechanism that generates a vast number of universes with randomly selected psychophysical laws. Given enough universes, some are bound to achieve psychophysical harmony. But given a naturalistic multiverse of this kind, it should still be deeply surprising that we find ourselves in one of the psychophysically harmonious universes.
My own opinion is that Cutter and Crummett are right in thinking that "the most popular objection to the fine-tuning argument does not affect the argument from psychophysical harmony", but this popular objection is not itself very interesting. The "multiverse response" essentially says that, given 'enough' universes, some are bound to contain consciousness, but it is easy to conceive of an arbitrary number of universes none of which contains consciousness. There is no set of such universes large enough to ensure that one of its elements will contain consciousness, any more than you can add 2 to an even number enough times to get an odd one. To say that our universe just 'happens' to contain consciousness is hardly satisfying, for why should there even be consciousness in the multiverse? And this is independent of the fact that the very concept of the multiverse is inconsistent: if our universe is contained by, but does not contain, something else which we call the multiverse, then the latter is our universe and not the former. There are better arguments that God does not exist, and better counter-arguments than the one presented here.
 

DoIMustHaveAnUsername?

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If there was disharmony, we could pursue acts which can harm us, yet, the harmony allows us to pursue acts which are advantagous (or rather, natural) to us.
I do mostly pursue acts that harm me psychologically. I don't think the standard "pleasures" are necessarily particularly good. So I am not sure if there is any interesting sense of harmony at all.
There need not be any mapping between the physical and non-physical mental states.

In idealism all is mind. So there is no dualism and no need for mapping.

Metabolism is a self-regulating system. The brain / body / cells, do not explode / fall apart because of feedback regulation. When the brain makes mistakes in perception it adjusts so that the signals match what is coming in. And by experimentation we can predict our own actions. I see an apple because my brain adjusts itself until what is inside and the signals outside are the same. We need this to survive. Whatever we perceive we can manipulate either it or ourselves to improve survival. This is and does not need to be physical it is and can be explained as only mental. Mapping is subject object not mental and physical. The object can be just as mental as the subject. Nothing needs to be physical. It is just mental operating on mental.

This is a Berkelian explanation of reality and is something that is quite defensible. However the video I posted operates on epiphenomenalism, which is the view that most people have concerning the mind-body problem. Concerning substances of reality, I would think most people are property dualists, that: the world is composed of just one kind of substancethe physical kind—there exist two distinct kinds of properties: physical properties and mental properties. (per wiki)
I seruously doubt epiphenomenalism is particularly popular.
According to epiphenomenalism consciousness is causally inert. That's very counter-common sense. So I don't think any random people in the street would adopt full-blown epiphenomenalism. But even within academic philosophy (at least by some slim margin) majority of philosophers (following philsurveys) are physicalists whereas epiphenomenalism generally falls under dualism as you noted. So it's already a minority position by that fact. Moreover, among non-physicalists, you have to make space for panpsychists, neutral monists, idealists, interactionist dualists and all that - and only then you have some space remaining for epiphenomenalism. So I seriously doubt that it's a very popular land. It may be more popular among some laymen interested in philosophy who are seeking some compromise between dualism and materialism while finding idealism/panpsychism too wacky for their taste. Otherwise, it seems to me a no man's land - that goes neither here nor there. To me it's the worst position in phil. of mind.


But... I don't think you need epiphenomenalism for psychophysical harmony. I didn't watch the video or read the paper. But from some second-third-hand account of it, what I understood is basically all you need is conceptual separability (or perhaps metaphysical possibility of separating) of causal-profiles and qualitative experiences. If it's metaphysically possible at all for there to be action-inversion (no matter if epiphenomenalism is true in the actual world or not) - for example for pain-feels to be hooked to pleasure-actions and such, you can launch a psychophysical harmony argument. So the argument applies even if you are a monist.


I'm, however, skeptical but ultimately agnostic about legitimate separability (and thereby invertibilities) of causal functionalities from phenomenal experiences. But I am willing grant it for the sake of argument.


My general problem, however, with design arguments (yes, all of them - Paley's clock, fine tuning etc.), however, goes much deeper - at metaphilosophical paradigmatic level - at the level of theories of explanations, what deserves explanation, and what kind of explanations count as good.


Overall, I have squeshy relation with "explanations" and "reasons" themselves. Consider a few kinds of explanation:

  1. Desire-belief explanation in common day-to-day level: example: why was johnson poinsoned by brooke? Because Johnson was mean and brooke hated his guts or something.
  2. Conceptual analysis kind of explanation: showing logico-mathematical connections. Example explaining why fermat's last theorem is true by showing step by step mathematical connections from some axioms or whatever. In the ideal case the axioms can be self-evident (eg. law of identity) - although my positions on such things are also a bit mixed but that's another story.
  3. Explanation in terms of some other principles: may be some natural laws, some efficient causal mechanisms and so on.

Among them, I find 2. to be the most satisfying. Because the explanatory demands for 2. kind of cases are often clear, and when answered there are rarely room for further questions. There can be some questions related to platonism/nominalism/conventionalism etc. as to what exactly different frameworks of logic and maths correspond to, but at least, taking a conditional standpoint "given framewok x, under the constraints of x, explain how a leads to b" it seems we can have complete explanations. This explanation can correspond also to matters of physics if we take some physical or metaphysical framework for granted. In a sense then this style of explanation is not completely different from 3.

The problem is that there is no such explanation available in response to design arguments. You can't reduce the apparent design to some self-explaining self-evident axiom or truth. At best (or perhaps, at worst), you can try to motivate principle of sufficient reason of some variant and then say because everything must have a reason, there must be some self-explaining ultimate reason (there are some missing steps here which can be filled by different strategies) -- and kind of indirectly gesture that there should be a conceptual analysis available (taking a Leibniz/Spinozian style rationalist standpoint) -- but fail to provide any such analysis directly (only indirectly suggest there should be based on other reasons - which are typically tenuous - or I find them so). So explanation style (2) is out.

Now both explanation type (1) and (3) (when not simply taking a conditional standpoint) is somewhat unsatisfying - because it ends up in some brute primitives that remains unanalyzed and non-intelligible.

In case of (1), we are tied into the agency-framework. This is fine for normal purposes. But we can keep on asking why. Why does Brooke hates what he hates? How does hating exactly work? (not to mention, I don't really believe in beliefs in the first place -- I know how funny that sounds). The framework takes some primitives related to agency/personalism. While we can justify taking them as primitives for day to day purposes - because often going deeper are not as relevant for day to day social interactions (unless you are looking to manipulate people, optimize relationships and power structures in your favor or something); but that's not an excuse available when asking "big questions" - about the creation of seeming intelligent organization of some core feature of the world or something. I find it very odd to take "agency" as some sort of primitive or privileged kind of explanatory paradigm in that regard.

The case of (3) ultimately is not really much better. Instead of using the language of desires/beliefs or agency and will, you use the language of impersonal principles (laws of nature, mechanisms of efficient causation, some sort of computationalist lingo or whatever) (also my suspicion is that you can rephrase (3) kind of explanations in agential terms without loss in predictability. For example, you can say laws don't really explain anything because they are just abstracted idealizations of behaviors. We have to ask what breaths life into the laws - and then postulate some primitive agents with simple dispositional powers from whose activities regularities and laws arise or something. On the other hand, you can go the other way around and say, talking in terms of agency doesn't really explain anything. Bringing up occult powers says nothing more. Either the agential language ends up taking complex phenomena/relations as brute powers, or it can be broken and explained in terms of simpler impersonal principles and mechanism - which need not be explained further in terms of occult powers that "breath life" into them - not because there aren't any such occult power - but because just saying "yo! there are some magic powers realizing these regularities" doesn't really do further explanatory work that can be practically utilized whereas the formal structures and regularities can be used for prediction and engineering. So part of the difference might be stylistic or more superficial preferences. I don't really care which side you choose here). The problem is that insofar (1) or (3) cannot be reduced to some self-evident primitive (law of identity or something), they end up being brute at some level.

That said, that's ok. Having some brute facts is fine. I don't have in principle issue with theistic explanations having God as a brute fact if it has some desirable explanatory virtue otherwise.

But yeah, we have to now analyze what exact virtues are "brute" explanations offering. In case of "brute" explanations the kind of virtues that I personally prefer are:
  1. Reduces bruteness (if not eliminate). Explains one or many phenomena/relations by some other phenomena/relations wherein the latter is relatively more intelligible (less is required to understand the latter). The idea of compression as comprehension get close to the spirit of what I am trying to get towards although I may not accept the exact idea in letter fully.
  2. It provides power. That it provides ways to engineer/design/control things. It provides models of predictions and such.
Standardly, theistic explanations simply do not seem to meet the bar of either (1) or (2) very well in response to design argument. In response to apparent intelligent organization, it posits another brute intelligent organization (intelligent agent) (although there are less-personalistic variants of theism which I am more sympathetic towards). That's just buck-passing instead of bruteness reduction. Even buck-passing is fine it offers some prospect or line of inquiry to explore and reduce bruteness in the long-term. But there isn't any clear way to do that with theism. What theists appeal to in theses cases would be divine simplicity - I think that's completely irrelevant. Divine simplicity is compositional simplicity which I don't care about.

In (1), I am asking for better intelligibility, what I am offered in theism - is the exact opposite - something even less intelligibile (perhaps beyond intelligibility) - some complex functional agent that work in mysterious ways (no matter if it's compositionally simple) that transcends finite mind existing beyond space and time. I mean, fine; as a finite being I don't expect universe to be intelligible completely, but how does that all really work as an "explanation"? Even the theistic-adjacent explanations seems more like buck-passing - "there is psycho-functional harmony - therefore universe is just intrinsically psycho-functionally harmonious" (but that sounds too trivial and empty - so change the language a bit of the second part and call it a day. May be say "because the universe is constrituted of primitive agents with intrinsic normative teleology or something". I'm not saying that's wrong; I think that's likely to be half true at least, but I won't really say that any of these "explains" anything much from where we started from.

All this is where I think naturalistic paradigm shines better because it at least tries to aim towards the two virtues. Whereas more theistic explanations - even if not entirely wrong -- to me, seems often like "not even wrong" i.e provide a sort of pseudo-explanation and pseudo-understanding by exploiting familiarity of agency-framework style explanation and exploiting compositional simplicity by some misplaced value (as if reducing compositional complexity is what is at stake, rather than something deeper - like "compression" of principles).

I'm not completely settled on the "two virtues" of explanation. In principle, I think it could be possible that theistic explanation given certain data can meet them to some respect. For example, I think it could be possible to build some agential framework with primitive agents taking some harmony primitively and build up complexity in some way. This can offer a level of "compression". But that won't be explaining the fundamental psycho-functional harmony to begin with - although the apparent harmony may led to preference of phenomenal-power-based models to account for the appearance (abductively). They can be still considered theistic-adjacent if anything. So it's not like I am completely against these sort of frameworks and models but I am cautious of taking things too far with them - or think that they explain more than they really do. Overall, I still lean towards scientific anti-realism/instrumentalism and would treat all of it as provisional stories rather than approximate truths (regarding which I am agnostic and skeptical - in the pyrrhonic sense of remaining with suspended judgment).
 

Black Rose

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"physics"

fizz-effects (soda pop)

Why do interactions occur? At a base level, things must be connected before interaction. An intermediate stage. intermediaries between all events in the universe.

But then after this, we must have symmetry breaking. A collapse into one set over all others.

Agents are what guide this process. It is the lowest energy state. But because things are apparently separated in space feedback occurs creating local maximums.

This is the conservation of energy. But it is not the conservation of entropy.

Negentropy occurs because of recycling. A capacitor effect.

In a computer, negentropy can occur if the system is never set to terminate.

What causes termination? The end state. But if the end state is never specified it never is created and thus the program goes on forever.

Agents select based on the least energy state and break symmetry by choosing the path that creates the least resistance. The maximum resistance is the end state but negentropy creates more non-resistances than resistance thus the end state is never reached.

Which state is the state the agent chooses? By conditioning. X good Y bad. Probe for x not y. Collapse (break symmetry) for x not y.

A probe is a choice function a value function for what is good and what is bad long and short term.

The amygdala has emotions built in that tell an organism how to survive. Fight flight freeze. Smell is memory. Deep memory. Survival is built into instinct.

Plastic is a new memory called adaptation.

All things are agents in this way.

Rember what creates homeostasis and what does not. (probes)

Interactions break symmetry in the direction of negentropy creating more and more non-resistance.

An object in motion will say in motion as long as not acted upon by an outside force.

The entropy of the universe will continue to decrease as long as not acted upon by an outside force.

As long as all objects in the universe interact they will create negative entropy as agents selecting the collapse symmetry that sustains non-resistance.

And the reason things interact and select good and bad things is that interactions must have a connection before interaction, the intermediary. The central intermediary is connected to all things in the universe and is thus aware of all things, allowing interactions to occur.

God is the core node of the interactions of all the subnodes. God synchronizes all value functions as the core root of the physical laws and agent qualia probes.

God gives qualia valence to all subnodes with no such thing as non-metal attributes.

Consciousness and consciousness alone is all that exists, in subdivisions but with a core node at the center.
 

dr froyd

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based on the parts i listened to it sounds very similar to a fine-tuned-universe argument, and thus subject to the anthropic principle?
Cutter and Crummett argue in their paper that, though their psychophysical harmony argument "has some notable similarities with the traditional fine-tuning argument", yet theirs is less vulnerable to the "multiverse response", which invokes the "observation selection effect" (i.e. the anthropic principle):
The key difference between our argument and the fine-tuning argument is that the observation of psychophysical harmony is not strongly associated with an observation selection effect. It is, of course, easy enough to cook up a multiverse hypothesis whose truth would all but guarantee that some universe has harmonious psychophysical laws. For example, we might hypothesize that there is some mechanism that generates a vast number of universes with randomly selected psychophysical laws. Given enough universes, some are bound to achieve psychophysical harmony. But given a naturalistic multiverse of this kind, it should still be deeply surprising that we find ourselves in one of the psychophysically harmonious universes.
My own opinion is that Cutter and Crummett are right in thinking that "the most popular objection to the fine-tuning argument does not affect the argument from psychophysical harmony", but this popular objection is not itself very interesting. The "multiverse response" essentially says that, given 'enough' universes, some are bound to contain consciousness, but it is easy to conceive of an arbitrary number of universes none of which contains consciousness. There is no set of such universes large enough to ensure that one of its elements will contain consciousness, any more than you can add 2 to an even number enough times to get an odd one. To say that our universe just 'happens' to contain consciousness is hardly satisfying, for why should there even be consciousness in the multiverse? And this is independent of the fact that the very concept of the multiverse is inconsistent: if our universe is contained by, but does not contain, something else which we call the multiverse, then the latter is our universe and not the former. There are better arguments that God does not exist, and better counter-arguments than the one presented here.
to me it sounds extremely strange that one would claim this "psychophysical harmony" is less subject to the anthropic principle than the physical laws of universe. Because after all, once you have a universe suitable for any kind of living creatures, all you need is for this universe to produce a species whose perception is somehow correlated with physical reality – which should be the likely outcome for any species that evolves successfully.

but no matter what the probability of such an evolution is, the quote from the paper seems to contain a severely misguided understanding of the anthropic principle. No matter how "deeply surprising" a set of circumstances are, if we would not have the ability to observe the circumstances in the counterfactual scenario then we are 100% dealing with the observation selection effect. And one doesn't need to invoke a multiverse argument; if a lottery has a 1 in 100 million chance of winning it doesn't mean we need to conduct 100 million lotteries to produce a winner.
 

Black Rose

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to me it sounds extremely strange that one would claim this "psychophysical harmony" is less subject to the anthropic principle than the physical laws of universe. Because after all, once you have a universe suitable for any kind of living creatures, all you need is for this universe to produce a species whose perception is somehow correlated with physical reality – which should be the likely outcome for any species that evolves successfully.

Depends on whether you believe that laws derive from universals or particulars.

What makes one subjective experience the same as another's?

Is my green your green?

No organism has the same exact nervous system. Randomness is built in.
 

dr froyd

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@Animekitty I didn't really understand what you mean in this context, but perception being objectively uniform among all individuals seems to be a different thing than perception correlating with reality. For example, I might perceive red as your green, but as long as we both agree on what the color of a ripe apple is, we will eat the same apple.
 

Black Rose

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@Animekitty I didn't really understand what you mean in this context, but perception being objectively uniform among all individuals seems to be a different thing than perception correlating with reality. For example, I might perceive red as your green, but as long as we both agree on what the color of a ripe apple is, we will eat the same apple.

well, that is the whole point.

why is subjective experience the way it is?

sure it correlates with objective reality but is our subjective reality the same?

Who is to say you get extreme pleasure from burns and cuts but express this as screams of agony?

Why is pain/pleasure universal and not particular? or is it?

I say it all serves the same function, and all is synchronized by a central feature.

Like how all laws are universal, they are the same everywhere:

All subjective experiences share the same universal invariances.

My pain is the same as yours if we have the same type of nervous system.

Somehow this syncs together which is unifying in some way.

Things that are the same at the same in all instances. They are synced together.

What makes subjective experience synched the way it is?

This refers again to the mind-body problem.

Nervous system x(a) experiences qualia y(a).

Nervous system x(b) experiences qualia y(b).

Why?
 
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