Antidepressants and Ne

[Agent Intellect]

A couple weeks ago or so, after having about hit 'rock bottom' I finally gave in and went to a doctor to get an antidepressant subscription. She subscribed me Bupropion, which is a dopamine and norepanephrine reuptake inhibitor as opposed to a serotonin reuptake inhibitor (something I discussed with her because SSRI's work better on women in the presence of estrogen).

Anyway, since starting the medication I've noticed that I've felt a lot more "Ne-ish" lately. I'm thinking that my depression may have been causing me to withdrawal into more of a Ti mode, but the past few days as the medication has started to take effect, I find myself acting slightly more extroverted (I actually engaged some co-workers in conversations the past three days); I've noticed that my mind makes a lot more associative jumps than before (when I spent a lot of time "dwelling"); I've become a little more quick witted (being able to joke back and forth with people as opposed to finding myself with nothing to reply back to people with); I've been in a bit more sharing of my thoughts (only slightly, but still somewhat). I've actually been able to stay focused and get motivated enough to do some writing, as well.

I've read before that antidepressants can actually increase neurogenesis, and that people suffering depression (and in my case, the addition of alcoholism) have brain shrinkage - so, I'm curious what people might think of taking antidepressants as a sort of nootropic (it seems possible - many of them lower the threshold for seizure, which is usually a result of too much brain activity)? Basically, would it be a good idea for an otherwise healthy individual to begin taking antidepressants simply for the cognitive enhancing effects?

Also, has anyone else that takes antidepressants noticed anything like this? Is this simply me returning to normalcy as the depression lifts, or is this actually some kind of cognitive enhancer? Has anyone tried SSRI's, Bupropion, monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI's) and/or Tricyclic antidepressants (TCA's) that could tell if there were any differences in their effects?

 

[bloozie]

Are you implying that you were initially an "ENTP" and that somehow during your depressed state you "turned" into an "INTP"
As for a person who is mentally healthy and taking antidepressants? Do you think that it would be wise to take such drugs when they are unnecessary to begin with?

 

[ckm]

I have never taken antidepressants, however I have a friend who does and I think she's absolutely dripping in Ne.

As for use as a nootropic, I personally am skeptical of the long-term benefits of antidepressants, even when used for their original purpose. However, I do not have in-depth knowledge on the topic, so I am not inviting anyone to debate; it is merely my opinion.

 

[snafupants]

maois where all but phased out decades ago due to severe dietary restrictions and physical reactions. (different subject) on the contrary, bupropion lowers the threshold for seizures, which means one incurs an elevated risk. bupropion, beneficially, has been shown to relieve depression, lower obesity, provide some anxiolitic effects, and maybe encumber adhd symptoms in adults. also, bupropion is twice as effective as a dopamine reuptake tool as a norepinephrine one.

would snafupants consider taking a presciption drug for the nootropic benefit. absolutely! food and drinks that one commonly assumes are food and drinks affect neurotransmitter levels, but in a dampened manner compared to script drugs. its exciting to play around with nootropics to raise acetylcholine levels or dopamine levels. coffee - one of americas favorite psychoactive substances - is a really neat member of the xanthine family. when someone asks me what does coffee do, i respond, nothing inherently. that is, caffeine works to block adenosine receptors which hoodwink the mind into thinking its more awake than it really is. thus, one has more serotonin, dopamine, and so forth than one normally would.

agentintellect - glad to hear that you went to the doctor. just monitor the physical, mental, and emotional results and fill your doctor in occasionally. let me be blunt: are you hoping this will gradually cut down on your drinking?

 

[Agent Intellect]

Are you implying that you were initially an "ENTP" and that somehow during your depressed state you "turned" into an "INTP"

No, I'm definitely Ti dominant, which is what might explain why I withdrew into extreme introversion mode while depressed, along with a propensity for 'logic dominated' thinking (when sober, I became hyper-rational and just plain a stick in the mud).

As for a person who is mentally healthy and taking antidepressants? Do you think that it would be wise to take such drugs when they are unnecessary to begin with?

I used to think the same thing, and perhaps it's a bit early to make the call, but so far my own experience with it has been nothing but positive (as I expressed in the OP).

I have never taken antidepressants, however I have a friend who does and I think she's absolutely dripping in Ne.

I wouldn't say I'm dripping (at least not yet) and these 'results' are rather preliminary (as it's only been a couple weeks, and it can take up to six weeks for the full effect - but then, my alcohol use may have caused an increase in the enzyme that metabolizes Bupropion and I've had a different experience with it).

As for use as a nootropic, I personally am skeptical of the long-term benefits of antidepressants, even when used for their original purpose. However, I do not have in-depth knowledge on the topic, so I am not inviting anyone to debate; it is merely my opinion.

This is why I'm interested in what someone who has tried multiple types, or have had prolonged use, has to say about it - I'm also still a bit skeptical of it, even though so far I've had only a positive experience with it (I'm sure different ones effect different people in various ways).


EDIT:

agentintellect - glad to hear that you went to the doctor. just monitor the physical, mental, and emotional results and fill your doctor in occasionally. let me be blunt: are you hoping this will gradually cut down on your drinking?

I'm three weeks sober.

 

[ckm]

I do not know when my friend does and does not take antidepressants however, so I have no way of telling whether what I call her use of Ne is directly caused by, or even linked to them.

Well done on your sobriety. I hope you manage to keep it up.

 

[Cavallier]

*smacks AI*

I was wondering if you'd dropped off the deep end and we wouldn't be seeing you around anymore. It's good to know you are doing better.

I wonder if the person taking a nootropic would simply get used to having it so that they would eventually reach the state where it would take more and more to have the same effect. I've taken antidepressants before but they had no affect on me whatsoever so I don't think my experience counts.

 

[Sforza]

Also, has anyone else that takes antidepressants noticed anything like this? Is this simply me returning to normalcy as the depression lifts, or is this actually some kind of cognitive enhancer? Has anyone tried SSRI's, Bupropion, monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI's) and/or Tricyclic antidepressants (TCA's) that could tell if there were any differences in their effects?

I've been on Zoloft (an SSRI) in combination with Xanor (Alprazolam) for anxiety/depression in the past. Now, I occasionally take Valium because I get slight panic attacks.

It's interesting that you mentioned your Ne function becoming more pronounced. The same thing happened to me. However, it also completely killed off my ability to think out of the box and I work in a creative industry so I had to stop. I just felt that the SSRI neutralized all my feelings and motivation to actually do stuff, because I ended up being content to just observe and think about things even more. It also made me passive to the point that I made a number of bad decisions (in hindsight) because I was too content to just let things flow past. I think you should probably wait a few months to be able to fully analyze how the anti-depressant is affecting you.

You also mentioned normalacy, which I think is a completely subjective term that differs from person to person. Only you would know how it applies to you. For example, other INTx I know are comfortable with their own eccentric personalities even though they're far away from what society would call normal.

Basically, would it be a good idea for an otherwise healthy individual to begin taking antidepressants simply for the cognitive enhancing effects?

It could be possible with majority consensus from the medical community, but I personally wouldn't. However I am interested on reading studies where the cognitive enhancing effects were studied for their quantitative methodology (when I have the time) *cough*.

 

[fullerene]

niiice... I'm glad to hear you're doing better too, and especially that you're reacting well to them. I've never taken anti-depressants, but I've heard almost equal stories from people that they either helped a ton, or just irritated them and made them feel much worse. I'm glad they're working out for you.

It's a little weird you would say you feel much more Ne-ish, though, making more associations and finding things to say easily... because that's exactly how I feel when moderately drunk. Granted, that could of course be altered perception, but remembering specific instances of puns and wordplay I found myself making, I don't think it was.

As for using them as a nootropic just because they counter brain-shrinkage... that doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Not that I know very much... but since we have a skull limiting the amount of space our brain can fit in, making a normal brain grow doesn't sound as safe/helpful as making a shrunken one return to full size. I have no idea what the scale of growth/shrinkage is, though, or how thick/stiff the protective casing is between brain and skull (which it could expand into), or any of that.

 

[Latro]

Bupropion, quite seriously, is more similar to cocaine and methylphenidate (whose usual brand name is Ritalin), biochemically, than to the things that are usually associated with antidepressants. (This is more saying that it is very biochemically different from the usual antidepressants than that it is particularly similar to cocaine and methylphenidate). So this thread title is rather...well, bad, all in all.

Anyway, yeah, I can see how you could have that kind of reaction, especially when becoming sober as well.

Warning: this spoiler is blunt and decidedly anti-SSRI. If you are having success with an SSRI or SNRI, I would reconsider reading it.

Spoiler

From my experience I would NOT say that SSRIs (and presumably then SNRIs, but perhaps not) would have the same type of effect, because in my experience things that elevate serotonin primarily even you out, rather than driving you to new ideas and tasks. You are not in profound despair, which for patients in very bad situations is a truly tremendous improvement, but at the same time you are not inclined to get up and go do stuff, because you are already content as it is. This is really why I don't think SSRIs are a good thing for depression: they're like the equivalent of taking a painkiller for a toothache. It isn't as painful, but your behavior doesn't change enough for the root problem to go away, assuming it wasn't COMPLETELY biochemical, which I think (based on only personal evidence) it usually isn't.

Basically, I think SSRIs are good at fixing things that really are pointless, like becoming physiologically anxious about something you know is fine, or feeling blue when everything is going your way for a long period of time (not just not enjoying a good day, but not enjoying the entirety of a good month). I think they are terrible at fixing things that actually require you to get up and do something to really fix. As a consequence I think they are moderately good at their usual task, where I think a combination of biochemical issues and personal issues hold patients down.

 

[snafupants]

ai - you must have seen this medication slamming before you elected to erect this thread. your two fatal flaws were admitting improvement and extolling, even slightly, the benefits of mainstream, legal medication to a room full of schizoid, paranoid, largely malaise ridden intps.

 

[Yasmin]

I can't say my experience with Wellbutrin was that positive. For the majority of the time I spent on it (a year, maybe two) I can't say that I felt particularly content at all. I don't think a month went by that I did think about suicide or cutting at least once, and even when I didn't get that low, my urge to smile, go out, spend time with people, or do anything that might be considered fun now, was almost non-existent.

In the few months before I stopped taking it, my highs started getting higher, and my lows lower. I was either bubbly or crying, with not much room in between for stability. I feel much better now that I'm off it.

That is not say, however, that I am always okay. Although I wouldn't call myself depressed, it does appear that after I stopped taking the medication, my anxiety has increased. I can barely go to Wal-mart without becoming a sweaty-shaky mess. I suppose this is one of those situation in which I should get up and see my psychiatrist. However, I've never been good at ask for help.