An ESFJ Society?

[Starswirl]

I know all of us INTPs occasionally feel out of place in (American) society, but could that be because our culture today is, in a way, ESFJ?

E- Introversion is viewed as some strange disorder that a person should get out of. People are expected to very social and externally-focused.

S- The new pop-psychology crazes all seem to promote Sensing. They say that we should focus on the present and not care about the future.

F- Our media today highlights emotion over reason. In movies we almost always show characters being rewarded for making the emotional choice when confronted with an emotion versus reason dilemma.

J- Our education system is strongly pro-J. Just look at some of the self-help articles on mass-viewership websites. You'll see plenty of pages telling advising people on how to get out of P-type flaws (procrastination, disorganization, etc), but scarcely anything about J-type flaws (lesser creativity, inflexibility, etc).

Perhaps this applies only to modern popular culture and pop-psychology, not American culture as a whole. But is it not clear that much of our society (sorry if you're not American) promotes "virtues" we dislike?

But more interestingly: If the US is an ESFJ society, does that make us INTPs un-American?

 

[MichiganJFrog]

But more interestingly: If the US is an ESFJ society, does that make us INTPs un-American?

If I read it correctly, Susan Cain's historical argument is that American introverts of all stripes were more socially accepted, perhaps even preferred, up until around our Industrial Revolution. Before then, apparently, it was less important to sell yourself, because everyone was expected to be self-sufficient and we were all just subsistence farmers, I guess. Washington and Jefferson were big-time introverts who barely said two words at the Continental Congress.

I don't expect that way of life will ever come around again. I'm still trying to figure how and to whom to sell myself. Nancy Ancowitz has some pointers on that.

Even if you're an introvert, then, yeah, it seems like it helps to be an SJ. I'm learning to fake the J part. I use my N to make educated guesses about my environment, and then I use what little S I have to verify my assessments. As far as faking E, not gonna happen.

 

[pseudonym]

I find this to be more a result of EXTJs manipulating pop culture to better sell it to the masses, who tend towards esfj. The ESJ aspects of it is, tragically, what allowed our culture to continue surviving, a culture where everyone just thinks about all the great ways they could have planted the crop last spring as they starve to death doesn't last lond, I want to use the term social darwinism but that isn't correct. Sensationalizing media is a completely rational decision on their part, the XSFXs of the world will be much quicker to buy into it that way. Also, I think it more likely that we feel out of place, not because the culture itself is ESFJ, but the people which that culture represents is ESFJ.
I would like to add that all of this is mere speculation, and would like to ask if any of you find the quality of this writing to be inferior, because when I look back at it I don't like it.

 

[Nezaros]

But more interestingly: If the US is an ESFJ society, does that make us INTPs un-American?

But I'm proud to be un-American, where at least I know I'm not stupid.

*cough*

But no, seriously, if all I see in the media is "American", and all the idiots I see on a regular basis are "American", then I'll happily classify myself as un-American. And nationalism is a plague, in any case.

More on-topic: Society certainly leans towards an ESFJ attitude, if not composed primarily of ESFJ's. Isn't the populace split roughly 50/50 E/I? And those that aren't ESFJ are forced to act as such, as you pointed out. I'm thinking it's because the SF's are easiest to manipulate, and those being a significant part of the population, everybody else wants to follow suit and fit in.

 

[PmjPmj]

I'm from the UK, and you Americans have my sympathy. With the greatest respect, your 'pro-extraversion' culture makes me want to run and find a dark corner... and I'm a fucking ENFJ.

Nobody really gives a shit about what kind of personality traits you exhibit over here. So long as you aren't some kind of batshit insane rapist and you're good at what you do, you're fine to carry on about your business.

 

[scorpiomover]

E- Introversion is viewed as some strange disorder that a person should get out of. People are expected to very social and externally-focused.

Why try to make people do what comes naturally? Because most of them wouldn't do it, without the social pressure, and are the opposite in tendency.

S- The new pop-psychology crazes all seem to promote Sensing. They say that we should focus on the present and not care about the future.

Why try to make people do what comes naturally? Because most of them wouldn't do it, without the social pressure, and are the opposite in tendency.

F- Our media today highlights emotion over reason. In movies we almost always show characters being rewarded for making the emotional choice when confronted with an emotion versus reason dilemma.

Why try to make people do what comes naturally? Because most of them wouldn't do it, without the social pressure, and are the opposite in tendency.

J- Our education system is strongly pro-J. Just look at some of the self-help articles on mass-viewership websites. You'll see plenty of pages telling advising people on how to get out of P-type flaws (procrastination, disorganization, etc), but scarcely anything about J-type flaws (lesser creativity, inflexibility, etc).

Why try to make people do what comes naturally? Because most of them wouldn't do it, without the social pressure, and are the opposite in tendency.

Perhaps this applies only to modern popular culture and pop-psychology, not American culture as a whole. But is it not clear that much of our society (sorry if you're not American) promotes "virtues" we dislike?

No. It is clear that the media, and those who are backed by them, corporations, prefer people who make snap decisions to purchase things based on emotional reasoning and peer pressure, hence, the promotion of ESFJ.

But more interestingly: If the US is an ESFJ society, does that make us INTPs un-American?

No. But being an INTP is very un-consumerish, and if not being a good dutiful consumer is un-American, then INTPs are probably more un-American than other types.

Incidentally, it's the same here. People put down introversion, relying on intuition, and not making quick decisions, over here, on a regular basis.

The only thing that is tolerated is the pretence of being a T. But if you actually completely drop your emotional values and desires on an issue, and then develop reasoning purely based on a T-basis, and then state them, watch how the feelings come out, and watch now 99% of those feelings are the same ideas that lots of other people say. Then go back and watch films from 10 years ago. You'll see those ideas were all mentioned in lots and lots of those films, using the exact same unique phrases that later came to be used by the populace.

What would you say, if people used to be very pro-capital punishment, for hundreds of years, and then lots of films were made with filibusters saying that capital punishment was morally wrong, and then soon later, more and more people are against capital punishment, and then became banned?

Then talk to people about the things that are not in any way mentioned in the media. They're surprisingly practical and rational.

Tells you something, doesn't it?

 

[Ink]

I wouldn't say ESFJ society, but a society of social conditioning. "Don't stand out". ESFJs are the best at navigating it I guess.

 

[fnordprefect]

ESFJ sheep culture with ESTJ taskmaster overseeing the herd.

 

[ILYGodney]

Nah, our culture's more ESFP or maybe even ENTJ. So much unhealthy Se!

 

[MichiganJFrog]

We are an ES-something culture, with "ES" standing for "executive summary."

 

[Wolf18]

I wouldn't say ESFJ society, but a society of social conditioning. "Don't stand out". ESFJs are the best at navigating it I guess.

Isn't the definition of society essentially "A group of people who don't stand out"?
Apparently, people in general tend to be ESFJs or have several ESFJ characteristics and therefore those people define society. If most people were INTPs, then society would still mean "don't stand out."

 

[joal0503]

I was actually thinking about this today...Polaris' responses to bap's thread...

so does culture/environment dictate personalities? or is it really some intrinsic temperament?

flip flop the OP and lets investigate the typology of a random african village. id GUESS that, since life will be more focused on survival and community, being an INTP probably wouldnt get you that far. and then i start to think, wait...would those typologies even fit into their culture at all?

sure it applies to developed nations, but when i cant really find any information that applies mbti to cultures and parts of the world that remain relatively untouched by civilization.

apologize in advance for not making much sense.

 

[lord methous]

I was actually thinking about this today...Polaris' responses to bap's thread...

so does culture/environment dictate personalities? or is it really some intrinsic temperament?

flip flop the OP and lets investigate the typology of a random african village. id GUESS that, since life will be more focused on survival and community, being an INTP probably wouldnt get you that far. and then i start to think, wait...would those typologies even fit into their culture at all?

sure it applies to developed nations, but when i cant really find any information that applies mbti to cultures and parts of the world that remain relatively untouched by civilization.

apologize in advance for not making much sense.

This is something that is known in psychology, as this distinction of personality types only comes up in industrialized society.

 

[Ink]

This is something that is known in psychology, as this distinction of personality types only comes up in industrialized society.

I'd imagine tribal INTPs were the ones who came up with the sophisticated traps and stuff like that... Scouts? Lone hunters? (btw, watching INTP Danel Day Lewis as a tribal mohican atm... )

 

[Duxwing]

I'd imagine tribal INTPs were the ones who came up with the sophisticated traps and stuff like that... Scouts? Lone hunters? (btw, watching INTP Danel Day Lewis as a tribal mohican atm... )

I bet that the ISTP's made the crazy traps far more often while INTPs made huge proof diagrams in the dirt to test the ideas of the INFJ tribal mystic and, after finding a flaw, asked their ENTP friends to shout the INFJ down for preaching false ideas.

-Duxwing

 

[GodOfOrder]

I bet that the ISTP's made the crazy traps far more often while INTPs made huge proof diagrams in the dirt to test the ideas of the INFJ tribal mystic and, after finding a flaw, asked their ENTP friends to shout the INFJ down for preaching false ideas.

-Duxwing

And then they killed the INTP

 

[Nick]

And then they killed the INTP

Why must we be the redshirts!

 

[GodOfOrder]

Why must we be the redshirts!

because nobody likes us because we piss them off