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Ambiversion/Ambiverts Do Not Exist

Inquisitor

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This absolutely brilliant article by a career type researcher and professor really illuminated some things for me. If you think you're "in the middle," think again. Taking a step towards differentiation may in fact be the healthiest thing you can do to make progress in your own personal development aka individuation.

I realize Ni-types seem to like the idea of ambiversion, maybe because Ni is much more "equivocal." But actually, as this lady mentions, ambiversion most likely falls into the category of pernicious fallacy.

My opinion is that it's important to know your type and embrace it to the maximum possible extent. That's the only way you'll ever be able to realize your true potential. Everyone has a dominant function, and by definition, that aspect of your mind is most highly developed and conscious. Whatever gifts you have to offer the world are going to be tied up with this function.

Here is the article:

Ambiverted or Ambivalent?

“Ambiversion”—the equal development of extraversion and introversion in an individual—has become a popular notion of late (Adam Grant, 2013; Daniel Pink, 2013) but it has led to some misinterpretations of Jung’s typology—specifically, to an idealization of this in-between state, and the concomitant implication that extraversion and introversion are undesirable attributes. It is of course true that we study typology in order to understand and work around the filters that our psychological type embeds in us. However, according to Jung, elimination of those filters is neither feasible nor desirable. A propensity for either extraversion or introversion is “hereditary and inborn in the subject” (1921/1971, para. 623), and becoming conscious of our natural typology will lead us toward self-realization. For Jung, psychological development occurs not by being equal in introversion and extraversion but by gaining awareness of one’s one-sidedness. This awareness increases psychic objectivity, but objectivity per se will always remain an unreachable ideal (Shamdasani, 2003, pp. 74-75). Jung put it this way: “We know that a man can never be everything at once, never quite complete. He always develops certain qualities at the expense of others, and wholeness is never attained” (para. 955).

An analyst who studied with Jung, Joseph Wheelwright (1982, pp. 14-15), mentioned the Aitutaki tribe in the Pacific as capable of flipping rapidly between introversion and extraversion. So apparently ambiversion can exist. But Wheelwright concurred with Jung, who called this “the mark of a primitive mentality” (1921/1971, para. 667). As Jungian analyst Daryl Sharp observed in his Jung Lexicon, “Ambivalence is associated in general with the influence of unconscious complexes, and in particular with the psychological functions when they have not been differentiated” (1991, p. 15).

Jung is often cited as saying that “there is no such thing as a pure extravert or a pure introvert,” a misquote that is used to suggest that ambiversion is the natural, healthy state (see for example, Ankeny, 2015, p. 38). But the actual quotation, read in full, leads to a different understanding: “Strictly speaking, there are no introverts and extraverts pure and simple, but only introverted and extraverted function-types, such as thinking types, sensation types, etc.” (1921/1971, para. 913). In other words, the terms extraversion and introversion, are attitudes indicating the direction or orientation of the mental functions, not independent of the mental functions but inseparable from them. According to Jung, who introduced these terms into the psychological lexicon (Falzeder, 2013, pp. 10-12), we are always one-sided because we can only have one primary function: “Absolute sovereignty always belongs, empirically, to one function alone, and can belong only to one function, because the equally independent intervention of another function would necessarily … contradict the first” (para. 667).

Normal vs. Individuated

Another Jung quotation that is often elided and misinterpreted (Ankeny, 2015, p. 38) is the following, which follows a discussion of extraverts and introverts: “There is finally a third group, and here it is hard to say whether the motivation comes chiefly from within or without. This group is the most numerous and includes the less differentiated normal man” (1921/1971, para. 894). Because of its reference to the “normal man,” this quotation, when cited out of context, further exacerbates the misunderstanding that ambiversion is either an option or a desirable state, when in fact the key phrase in the quotation is “less differentiated.” Jung goes on to say about the extraverted and introverted attitudes, “This difference of attitude becomes plainly observable only when we are confronted with a comparatively well-differentiated personality [my emphasis]” (para. 971). Differentiation is the process we engage in to develop our personality type as we mature: “Differentiation consists in the separation of the function from other functions, and in the separation of its individual parts from each other” (para. 705). Jung defined individuation, his term for the process of psychological development, as “a process of differentiation (q.v.), having for its goal the development of the personality” (para. 767). He further described the lack of differentiation as “an archaic condition:”

So long as a function is still so fused with one or more other functions—thinking with feeling, feeling with sensation, etc.—that it is unable to operate on its own, it is in an archaic condition, i.e., not differentiated, not separated from the whole as a special part and existing by itself. Undifferentiated thinking is incapable of thinking apart from other functions. … The undifferentiated function is also characterized by ambivalence and ambitendency, i.e., every position entails its own negation, and this leads to characteristic inhibitions in the use of the undifferentiated function. (para. 705)

What is not well-understood in the popular media is that Jung’s references to “normal man” are rarely if ever complimentary. He once remarked that, “To be normal is the ideal aim of the unsuccessful” (1931, para. 161). When Jung referred to the “normal man” he often meant someone who had merged with the collective ideal of the moment, submerging his or her own individuality:

The man of today, who resembles more or less the collective ideal, has made his heart into a den of murderers. … And in so far as he is normally ‘adapted’ to his environment, it is true that the greatest infamy on the part of his group will not disturb him. (1928/1977, para. 240)

Jungian author John Conger explained Jung’s unique understanding of the inter-relatedness of the normal and the pathological as follows: “Normality tells us little about the integration and harmony of the psyche. … Ironically a normal person developing neurotic symptoms may in fact have taken a step toward his or her own psychic health” (pp. 78-79). In Jung’s understanding, the development of extraversion or introversion, out of a state of ambiversion, is actually a benchmark of the psyche’s growth, and the acceptance of one’s innate tendency toward one or the other is a step toward self-realization.

The Illusion of Balance

Of course it is the case that every type has both attitudes at its disposal. What is not well-understood is how difficult it is to discern which is primary. As Sharp noted, “The great difficulty in diagnosing types is … the fact that the dominant conscious attitude is unconsciously compensated or balanced by its opposite” (1987, p. 32). The problem with the concept of ambiversion is that it can deflect us from doing the self-analysis necessary for psychological growth. If we do not ascertain which attitude predominates, we can never know the extent of our subjective bias. Believing that we are ambiverts is a way of denying the inner conflict, denying that we have a subjective bias.

The temptation to believe that we are ambiverts, or that we are intrinsically balanced, has been around since Jung created his system of typology and in part seeded his motivation for writing Psychological Types. Jung’s acknowledged goal was to reconcile the “hostile” psychologies of Adler and Freud, each of which had demonstrable value. His realization that Adler’s system was introverted and Freud’s was extraverted was a major revelation, one that transformed both his theory and his practice of psychology. This understanding led him to consider an understanding of what he called “the personal equation” to be an imperative for psychoanalysts, or in fact for any scholar or scientist pursuing objective truth. Acknowledgement of intrinsic bias became the necessary starting position for his psychology: “Every theory of psychic processes has to submit to being evaluated in its turn as itself a psychic process, as the expression of a specific type of human psychology with its own justification” (1921/1971, para. 857).

The proposal that any system of psychology (including Jung’s own) was necessarily limited, being the expression of its author’s psychological type, did not find a warm welcome in the psychoanalytic community, as Sonu Shamdasani observed in his chapter titled “Psychology’s Relativity Problem” (2003, pp. 72-87). No psychiatrist wanted to acknowledge that his system was fallible, relativized by the limitations of his own mode of consciousness. To this day, the suggestion that we have from childhood developed a particular mode of consciousness with which to interact with the world is not always a welcome one. Hence, the concept of “ambiversion” finds many adherents. However, when Jung said, “One sees what one can best see oneself” (1921/1971, para. 9, italics extant), he demonstrated an understanding of the concept now known as confirmation bias, before behavioral science discovered it.

References

Ankeny, J. (2015, March). A winning personality. Entrepeneur, 36-41.

Conger, J. P. (1988/2005). Jung and Reich: The body as shadow, 2nd ed. Berkeley, CA: North Atlantic Books.

Falzeder, E. (2013). The prehistory of Jung’s concept of psychological types. In J. Beebe & E. Falzeder (Eds.), The question of psychological types: The correspondence of C. G. Jung and Hans Schmid-Guisan, 1915-1916 (pp. 9-17). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.

Grant, A. (2013). Rethinking the extraverted sales ideal: The ambivert advantage. Psychological Science, 24(6), 1024-1030.

Jung, C. G. (1921/1971). Psychological types (H. Read et al., Eds.), The collected works of C. G. Jung (R. F. C. Hull, Trans.) (Vol. 6). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.

Jung, C. G. (1928/1977). The relations between the ego and the unconscious (H. Read et al., Eds.), The collected works of C. G. Jung (R. F. C. Hull, Trans.) (Vol. 7). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. (Reprinted in Two essays in analytical psychology.)

Jung, C. G. (1931). Problems of modern psychotherapy (H. Read et al., Eds.), The collected works of C. G. Jung (R. F. C. Hull, Trans.) (Vol. 16). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. (Reprinted in Modern man in search of a soul.)

Pink, D. (2013). Why extroverts fail, introverts flounder, and you probably succeed. Washington Post online, January 28.

Shamdasani, S. (2003). Jung and the making of modern psychology: The dream of a science. Cambridge, MA: Cambridge University Press.

Sharp, D. (1987). Personality types: Jung’s model of typology. Toronto, Canada: Inner City Books.

Sharp, D. (1991). C. G. Jung Lexicon. Toronto, Canada: Inner City Books.

Wheelwright, J. B. (1982). St. George and the dandelion: Forty years of practice as a Jungian analyst. San Francisco, CA: C. G. Jung Institute of San Francisco.
http://typeindepth.com/2015/07/ambiversion-ideal-or-myth/

EDIT:

I found another article on the website that nicely rounds out Shumate's point of view. Like Shumate, the author of this article, does not believe ambiversion is a desirable state. Nevertheless, he makes a great point that at a more advanced stage of life the individual may experience something that looks like ambiversion, but is actually called "centroversion" and this relates to the development of the "transcendent" function, one that is wholly different from the dominant. This gets pretty spiritual, so many people might not like this sort of talk, but I thought it was a good read.
 

Tannhauser

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The message seems to be "it's unhealthy to go against Jung's theories", whereas outside the books, reality goes against Jung's theories.

To marry oneself to unfalsifiable theories which have nothing to do with the empirical world and exist only in the scribblings of a psychiatrist who used to fuck his own patients – now that is pathological.
 

Haim

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Jung never really said there is introvert nor extrovert(in the way you describe here)
He said you have a scale say 0.3-0.9 within a range of 0(intorvert)-1(extrovert), there is not point you can say now he is extrovert, being extrovert is just having that scale closer to the 1 or that within your own scale you spend more "time" in the higher half.
By that a person is a range and not a point in the introvert/extrovert scale, then most people are Ambivert.

Second mistake is you treat MTBI as an actual physical thing, while it is a method of describing and labeling an actual thing.Like we label people to baby,child,teenager they are always in between states, there is no "point" in the age graph, no such thing as "child" that is just us labeling a person as a "child".
 

Hadoblado

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Thanks for making this its own thread. <3

Seems a decent read.

I see ambivertuism as being to MBTI as MBTI is to more empirical science. It's not empirically evidenced, but this is okay because it makes people feel good. What's better than finding a group of people you are intrinsically connected to who share strengths and dismiss their irrelevant weaknesses and weren't losers all along they were just misunderstood? Being above that group of people and each of the other fifteen, for little effort expended.

It's easy, and it makes you feel good.

Of course, plenty of people, myself included, have considered the notion when they have difficulty typing themselves. If you don't fit neatly into a Jungian stack, you've basically got four options:
1) - I'm too complex to fit into a norm
2) - I must be an XXXX because it fits best
3) - I am not able enough to accurately type myself
4) - Jungian typology doesn't encapsulate me because it's doesn't match reality

Notice how, compared to the last three, 1) makes you feel a whole lot better? It's basically choosing between superiority, dissonance, inferiority, and throwing out something you've spent hours and hours studying that has netted you lots of friends.
Funnily enough, the option you choose could probably be used to help type you for reals.

I think Inquisitor's article addresses things well. From my own perspective, introversion/extroversion are determined in MBTI by your dominant function, and your dominant function is the one you use most. While it's technically possible to have two functions that are approximately equally developed, I don't think this makes you an ambivert. You then look at the tertiary and inferior. They would have to be equal as well. For example say you're XNTP. Your Ne and Ti are equal, but your Si is higher than your Fe. You're actually an INTP. No this isn't a practical test, as such things are hard to prove. But then the issue is measurement error. At the theoretical side of things, we've got no reason to believe there would be ambiverts (that I know of). There is just error (and a lot of it).
 
Last edited:

Absurdity

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I like how Yellow has become the empirical evidence fairy.
 

Hadoblado

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Become? Always was.

Bane of my existence, shitting up all my armchair philosophy with so called "evidence".
 

redbaron

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Fucking stupid, honestly.

It's not hard to find people who're conditionally extraverted and enjoy social activities, while also enjoying independent things for other reasons. But hey let's just say that's not true because, "functions".

Then again maybe I'm just being brash because I'm an Aries with the same planetary alignments as Edmund Hillary which therefore conveys a conveyance of Mars influence tempered by the Moon. So it makes me believe in the profundity of human individualism and defend it with Mars-warrior energy patterns.
 

Hadoblado

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RB I think you're conflating MBTI xxtroversion with standard xxtroversion.

It's not hard to find people who're conditionally extraverted and enjoy social activities, while also enjoying independent things for other reasons. But hey let's just say that's not true because, "functions".

But these aren't necessarily ambiverts. They're just people who use multiple functions, because everyone uses multiple functions. How is there room in MBTI for ambiverts? How does it make sense? You'd have to throw out the functional stack.

I mean, to me, that poses no problem. But for someone who believes in MBTI, and functions, how does an ambivert happen?
 

PmjPmj

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You'd have to throw out the functional stack.

Go ahead and throw it out. Dominant is king, and all other functions are subservient to a large degree. Equally (as I'm sure you know) 'type' does not work in the neat, linear manner which has been proposed; whilst I believe the functions do exist (see Dario Nardi - some interesting results), it would be folly to assume they so easily fall in line with one another.

To the point.

Ambiversion doesn't exist within this model. Your dominant function (your MO) either has an extroverted attitude or an introverted one. Ergo, I/E. There is no A, and I wish the theory would fuck off.

In practice, we're a mix of everything - a person may indeed exhibit traits of I one moment and traits of E the next. This isn't ambiversion, this is merely the interplay of one's cognitive functions.

I know that's all rather obvious, but... nrgh.
 

Hadoblado

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So you don't believe in a rigid stack as definitive of type?
 

PmjPmj

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No, and you'd be hard pushed to find any (competent) practitioner who does - although there are the odd ones who still make a case for it.

Your dominant is absolutely your MO. Arguably, and in my own experience, a case can be made for auxiliary functions. That makes sense to me, as it acts as a counter-balance. Beyond that, though? It's more of a crap shoot than people realise.
 

Inquisitor

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No, and you'd be hard pushed to find any (competent) practitioner who does - although there are the odd ones who still make a case for it.

Your dominant is absolutely your MO. Arguably, and in my own experience, a case can be made for auxiliary functions. That makes sense to me, as it acts as a counter-balance. Beyond that, though? It's more of a crap shoot than people realise.

I would add it's the interplay between the dominant and inferior that really defines most of our thoughts and behavior. We're just not as aware of the inferior b/c when it takes hold we all become pretty stupid and primitive so field of awareness both internal and external diminishes greatly.
 

Architect

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I view it as nomenclature. Sure you can view yourself as an ambivert, but that's not very useful because it says you are nothing rather than something. Using Jung's formulation is more precise, it says you are extraverted in some ways and introverted in others, and overall have a tendency or preference. That's the simple view.

The fuller view is explained in Ambiversion and Individuation which follows up to the previous article.

ambiversion is an archaic state. It occurs when the functions are undifferentiated and it produces ambivalent feelings towards other people or situations

The article goes on to discuss how individuation is the process of becoming and transcending your type.
 

reckful

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This absolutely brilliant article by a career type researcher and professor really illuminated some things for me. If you think you're "in the middle," think again. Taking a step towards differentiation may in fact be the healthiest thing you can do to make progress in your own personal development aka individuation.

I realize Ni-types seem to like the idea of ambiversion, maybe because Ni is much more "equivocal." But actually, as this lady mentions, ambiversion most likely falls into the category of pernicious fallacy.

My opinion is that it's important to know your type and embrace it to the maximum possible extent. That's the only way you'll ever be able to realize your true potential. Everyone has a dominant function, and by definition, that aspect of your mind is most highly developed and conscious. Whatever gifts you have to offer the world are going to be tied up with this function.

Here is the article:

Ambiverted or Ambivalent?

“Ambiversion”—the equal development of extraversion and introversion in an individual—has become a popular notion of late (Adam Grant, 2013; Daniel Pink, 2013) but it has led to some misinterpretations of Jung’s typology—specifically, to an idealization of this in-between state, and the concomitant implication that extraversion and introversion are undesirable attributes. It is of course true that we study typology in order to understand and work around the filters that our psychological type embeds in us. However, according to Jung, elimination of those filters is neither feasible nor desirable. A propensity for either extraversion or introversion is “hereditary and inborn in the subject” (1921/1971, para. 623), and becoming conscious of our natural typology will lead us toward self-realization. For Jung, psychological development occurs not by being equal in introversion and extraversion but by gaining awareness of one’s one-sidedness. This awareness increases psychic objectivity, but objectivity per se will always remain an unreachable ideal (Shamdasani, 2003, pp. 74-75). Jung put it this way: “We know that a man can never be everything at once, never quite complete. He always develops certain qualities at the expense of others, and wholeness is never attained” (para. 955).

An analyst who studied with Jung, Joseph Wheelwright (1982, pp. 14-15), mentioned the Aitutaki tribe in the Pacific as capable of flipping rapidly between introversion and extraversion. So apparently ambiversion can exist. But Wheelwright concurred with Jung, who called this “the mark of a primitive mentality” (1921/1971, para. 667). As Jungian analyst Daryl Sharp observed in his Jung Lexicon, “Ambivalence is associated in general with the influence of unconscious complexes, and in particular with the psychological functions when they have not been differentiated” (1991, p. 15).

Jung is often cited as saying that “there is no such thing as a pure extravert or a pure introvert,” a misquote that is used to suggest that ambiversion is the natural, healthy state (see for example, Ankeny, 2015, p. 38). But the actual quotation, read in full, leads to a different understanding: “Strictly speaking, there are no introverts and extraverts pure and simple, but only introverted and extraverted function-types, such as thinking types, sensation types, etc.” (1921/1971, para. 913). In other words, the terms extraversion and introversion, are attitudes indicating the direction or orientation of the mental functions, not independent of the mental functions but inseparable from them. According to Jung, who introduced these terms into the psychological lexicon (Falzeder, 2013, pp. 10-12), we are always one-sided because we can only have one primary function: “Absolute sovereignty always belongs, empirically, to one function alone, and can belong only to one function, because the equally independent intervention of another function would necessarily … contradict the first” (para. 667).

Normal vs. Individuated

Another Jung quotation that is often elided and misinterpreted (Ankeny, 2015, p. 38) is the following, which follows a discussion of extraverts and introverts: “There is finally a third group, and here it is hard to say whether the motivation comes chiefly from within or without. This group is the most numerous and includes the less differentiated normal man” (1921/1971, para. 894). Because of its reference to the “normal man,” this quotation, when cited out of context, further exacerbates the misunderstanding that ambiversion is either an option or a desirable state, when in fact the key phrase in the quotation is “less differentiated.” Jung goes on to say about the extraverted and introverted attitudes, “This difference of attitude becomes plainly observable only when we are confronted with a comparatively well-differentiated personality [my emphasis]” (para. 971). Differentiation is the process we engage in to develop our personality type as we mature: “Differentiation consists in the separation of the function from other functions, and in the separation of its individual parts from each other” (para. 705). Jung defined individuation, his term for the process of psychological development, as “a process of differentiation (q.v.), having for its goal the development of the personality” (para. 767). He further described the lack of differentiation as “an archaic condition:”

So long as a function is still so fused with one or more other functions—thinking with feeling, feeling with sensation, etc.—that it is unable to operate on its own, it is in an archaic condition, i.e., not differentiated, not separated from the whole as a special part and existing by itself. Undifferentiated thinking is incapable of thinking apart from other functions. … The undifferentiated function is also characterized by ambivalence and ambitendency, i.e., every position entails its own negation, and this leads to characteristic inhibitions in the use of the undifferentiated function. (para. 705)

What is not well-understood in the popular media is that Jung’s references to “normal man” are rarely if ever complimentary. He once remarked that, “To be normal is the ideal aim of the unsuccessful” (1931, para. 161). When Jung referred to the “normal man” he often meant someone who had merged with the collective ideal of the moment, submerging his or her own individuality:

The man of today, who resembles more or less the collective ideal, has made his heart into a den of murderers. … And in so far as he is normally ‘adapted’ to his environment, it is true that the greatest infamy on the part of his group will not disturb him. (1928/1977, para. 240)

Jungian author John Conger explained Jung’s unique understanding of the inter-relatedness of the normal and the pathological as follows: “Normality tells us little about the integration and harmony of the psyche. … Ironically a normal person developing neurotic symptoms may in fact have taken a step toward his or her own psychic health” (pp. 78-79). In Jung’s understanding, the development of extraversion or introversion, out of a state of ambiversion, is actually a benchmark of the psyche’s growth, and the acceptance of one’s innate tendency toward one or the other is a step toward self-realization.

The Illusion of Balance

Of course it is the case that every type has both attitudes at its disposal. What is not well-understood is how difficult it is to discern which is primary. As Sharp noted, “The great difficulty in diagnosing types is … the fact that the dominant conscious attitude is unconsciously compensated or balanced by its opposite” (1987, p. 32). The problem with the concept of ambiversion is that it can deflect us from doing the self-analysis necessary for psychological growth. If we do not ascertain which attitude predominates, we can never know the extent of our subjective bias. Believing that we are ambiverts is a way of denying the inner conflict, denying that we have a subjective bias.

The temptation to believe that we are ambiverts, or that we are intrinsically balanced, has been around since Jung created his system of typology and in part seeded his motivation for writing Psychological Types. Jung’s acknowledged goal was to reconcile the “hostile” psychologies of Adler and Freud, each of which had demonstrable value. His realization that Adler’s system was introverted and Freud’s was extraverted was a major revelation, one that transformed both his theory and his practice of psychology. This understanding led him to consider an understanding of what he called “the personal equation” to be an imperative for psychoanalysts, or in fact for any scholar or scientist pursuing objective truth. Acknowledgement of intrinsic bias became the necessary starting position for his psychology: “Every theory of psychic processes has to submit to being evaluated in its turn as itself a psychic process, as the expression of a specific type of human psychology with its own justification” (1921/1971, para. 857).

The proposal that any system of psychology (including Jung’s own) was necessarily limited, being the expression of its author’s psychological type, did not find a warm welcome in the psychoanalytic community, as Sonu Shamdasani observed in his chapter titled “Psychology’s Relativity Problem” (2003, pp. 72-87). No psychiatrist wanted to acknowledge that his system was fallible, relativized by the limitations of his own mode of consciousness. To this day, the suggestion that we have from childhood developed a particular mode of consciousness with which to interact with the world is not always a welcome one. Hence, the concept of “ambiversion” finds many adherents. However, when Jung said, “One sees what one can best see oneself” (1921/1971, para. 9, italics extant), he demonstrated an understanding of the concept now known as confirmation bias, before behavioral science discovered it.

References

Ankeny, J. (2015, March). A winning personality. Entrepeneur, 36-41.

Conger, J. P. (1988/2005). Jung and Reich: The body as shadow, 2nd ed. Berkeley, CA: North Atlantic Books.

Falzeder, E. (2013). The prehistory of Jung’s concept of psychological types. In J. Beebe & E. Falzeder (Eds.), The question of psychological types: The correspondence of C. G. Jung and Hans Schmid-Guisan, 1915-1916 (pp. 9-17). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.

Grant, A. (2013). Rethinking the extraverted sales ideal: The ambivert advantage. Psychological Science, 24(6), 1024-1030.

Jung, C. G. (1921/1971). Psychological types (H. Read et al., Eds.), The collected works of C. G. Jung (R. F. C. Hull, Trans.) (Vol. 6). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.

Jung, C. G. (1928/1977). The relations between the ego and the unconscious (H. Read et al., Eds.), The collected works of C. G. Jung (R. F. C. Hull, Trans.) (Vol. 7). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. (Reprinted in Two essays in analytical psychology.)

Jung, C. G. (1931). Problems of modern psychotherapy (H. Read et al., Eds.), The collected works of C. G. Jung (R. F. C. Hull, Trans.) (Vol. 16). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. (Reprinted in Modern man in search of a soul.)

Pink, D. (2013). Why extroverts fail, introverts flounder, and you probably succeed. Washington Post online, January 28.

Shamdasani, S. (2003). Jung and the making of modern psychology: The dream of a science. Cambridge, MA: Cambridge University Press.

Sharp, D. (1987). Personality types: Jung’s model of typology. Toronto, Canada: Inner City Books.

Sharp, D. (1991). C. G. Jung Lexicon. Toronto, Canada: Inner City Books.

Wheelwright, J. B. (1982). St. George and the dandelion: Forty years of practice as a Jungian analyst. San Francisco, CA: C. G. Jung Institute of San Francisco.
http://typeindepth.com/2015/07/ambiversion-ideal-or-myth/

EDIT:

I found another article on the website that nicely rounds out Shumate's point of view. Like Shumate, the author of this article, does not believe ambiversion is a desirable state. Nevertheless, he makes a great point that at a more advanced stage of life the individual may experience something that looks like ambiversion, but is actually called "centroversion" and this relates to the development of the "transcendent" function, one that is wholly different from the dominant. This gets pretty spiritual, so many people might not like this sort of talk, but I thought it was a good read.

For the second time in two days, I'm moved to ask, "Integrity much, Inquisitor?"

In our multiple previous back-and-forths on whether Jung thought it was possible to be ambiverted, I've never claimed Jung pointed to that as any kind of ideal. He did not.

Nor have I ever pointed to ambiversion as some kind of ideal state — and indeed, I've emphasized that I'm an agnostic on the issue of whether it's even possible for someone to be in what could meaningfully be framed as an exact middle position on the E/I spectrum.

And that "brilliant article" you quote in your OP is mostly off-topic if the issue isn't whether ambiversion is a to-be-desired state, but just whether it's possible, and it certainly doesn't seriously undermine any of the points I've made on the subject.

What you keep asserting, and what I've taken issue with, and continue to take issue with, is:

  • that anybody today is in a position to non-foolishly insist that, as a factual matter, it isn't possible for someone to be an ambivert; and
  • that, as a theoretical matter, it's inconsistent with Jung and the MBTI to allow for the possibility of ambiversion.
And to start by repeating what I just said in that other thread, after you boldly (and wrongly) asserted that "Nowhere in the foundational works is there any mention of an ambivert"...

From my first post:

As you and I have discussed at length (starting here), Jung viewed his eight types as four varieties of extravert and four varieties of introvert, while also declaring that more people were essentially in the middle on E/I than were significantly extraverted or introverted — and characterizing those ambiverts as "the normal man." And Myers allowed for the possibility of middleness on all four MBTI dimensions. So the idea of middleness on one or more dimensions goes all the way back to the MBTI's theoretical roots.

You're free to disagree with as many "foundational works" as you like, of course, but declaring that "nowhere in the foundational works is there any mention of an ambivert" is freaking ridiculous, unless you're just meaning to make the trivial semantic point that they didn't use the exact term "ambivert" to refer to the people in Jung's "middle group," who he said were neither extraverts nor introverts, and who he said were more common than either extraverts or introverts.​

And from my second post:

You can agree with Jung or disagree with Jung, but on some issues, what Jung said is more in the nature of a fact.

You say there's "no such thing as introversion and extraversion," but in fact, introversion and extraversion, as manifested in introverts and extraverts, was Jung's main subject in Psychological Types. He spent more time talking about the things he thought were characteristic of introverts (generally) and extraverts (generally) than he spent talking about all eight of the functions put together.

He thought Mother Nature had created extraverts and introverts because they were, in effect, two separate human subspecies who pursued two separate (not eight separate) reproductive strategies, each successful in its own way.

As I noted in my first post, Jung's eight function-attitude types were four varieties of extravert and four varieties of introvert. And he never discussed a dominant extraverted or introverted function outside the context of the person with that function either being an extravert or an introvert (as applicable).

And he really could not have been clearer than he was in that 1923 lecture — given two years after Psychological Types was published and later added by Jung to the Collected Works edition — where he first introduced his audience to the "extraverted" and "introverted" types, and then he said this:

There is, finally, a third group, and here it is hard to say whether the motivation comes chiefly from within or without. This group is the most numerous and includes the less differentiated normal man, who is considered normal either because he allows himself no excesses or because he has no need of them. The normal man is, by definition, influenced as much from within as from without. He constitutes the extensive middle group, on one side of which are those whose motivations are determined mainly by the external object, and, on the other, those whose motivations are determined from within. I call the first group extraverted, and the second group introverted.​

Your ability to read that paragraph and then declare to a forum audience that "Nowhere in the foundational works is there any mention of an ambivert" does not speak well for you, amigo.​

And for ease of reference, and just in case anyone's interested, I've recycled some more reckful (from another previous exchange we had) in the spoiler. You didn't really answer my questions then, and I'm guessing you're not really going to answer them now — and unless and until you do meaningfully address those issues, I doubt I'm going to have much, if anything, I want to add.

From this post:

There is no such thing as an ambivert. You're either an ENTP or an INTP, not both. Don't try to alter the existing categories until you fully understand them first.

Can you point to any respectable source for that?

You confidently assert that "there is no such thing as an ambivert." Well, first of all, it can be important to distinguish between theoretical assertions and factual assertions. Somebody might say they subscribe to a personality typology that theorizes that people have opposing preferences on four scales and there's no middle possibility, while acknowledging, at the same time, that there's no respectable body of studies that purports to establish, as a factual matter, that a person can't be in the middle. And somebody else might assert — as you seem to be doing — that as a factual matter, it's impossible to be in the middle with respect to one or more of the MBTI's dimensions.

Starting at the theoretical end, and for what it's worth, Jung viewed his eight types as four varieties of extravert and four varieties of introvert, while also declaring that more people were essentially in the middle on E/I than were significantly extraverted or introverted. ... [And] Myers ... allowed for the possibility of middleness on all four MBTI dimensions. ...

The official MBTI test is designed on the operational assumption that people have four preferences, and assigns people a (tentative) type on each dimension. But that's a very different thing from saying that the MBTI theory says that it isn't possible for someone to be in the middle on any dimension — and in fact, the MBTI Manual specifically notes that someone with a score near the middle is someone who has essentially "split the vote" rather than offered much evidence of a preference. And the more recent "Step II" version of the MBTI has five subscales for each dimension, and it's possible to come out on the E side (for example) of some of them and the I side of the rest.

And as I understand it, there's now quite a lot of accumulated data that suggests that most or all of the MBTI dichotomies (and the Big Five dimensions they correlate with) exhibit something along the lines of a normal distribution, with the majority of people in or not that far from the middle.

So... two final questions for you:

  • Are you under the impression that it's somehow been established, as a factual matter, that it's impossible for someone to be in the middle on any of the MBTI dimensions? If so, again, can you point us to any sources?

  • If, on the other hand, you don't think the impossibility of middleness has been factually established — and if you agree (as I hope you would) that the point of theories, generally speaking, is to account for the facts as well as possible — why would you want to theoretically exclude the in-the-middle possibility at this point?

And from this follow-up post:

Actually, I've never "lost this debate" with anybody, Inquisitor, and that's because, as I've said...

  • ... I don't know of any reasonably well-known modern MBTI theorist who's claimed — as you did in your first post — that "there is no such thing as an ambivert." In your second-to-last post, you said you "want to negate the possibility of middleness" because "from what I've read by type dynamics authors, there is no such thing" — and so I asked you to "kindly provide us with relevant quotes from two or three of these 'type dynamics authors' who you're inclined to treat as authorities on this issue." And ya know, it hasn't escaped my attention that you've so far failed to cite a single respectable "type dynamics author" for your proposition that "there is no such thing" as ambiversion.
  • Focusing at the factual level, I don't know of a single study, never mind anything like a respectably substantial body of studies, that has even attempted to establish anybody's theoretical position that it's impossible to be an ambivert — which, let's face it, is hardly surprising in light of the fact that (1) nobody respectable seems to be taking that theoretical position in the first place, and (2) given the limitations on our current ability to test preferences and preference strengths (not to mention potentially messy complications like multiple facets), how could anybody really purport to go about definitely disproving the possibility of ambiversion at this point?
So... it's pretty much just silly for you to be going around telling people who think they may be ambiverts that that's impossible, not to mention chiding them that the fact that they think it's possible shows that they don't "fully understand" the "existing categories."​
 

redbaron

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RB I think you're conflating MBTI xxtroversion with standard xxtroversion.

No.

But these aren't necessarily ambiverts. They're just people who use multiple functions, because everyone uses multiple functions. How is there room in MBTI for ambiverts? How does it make sense? You'd have to throw out the functional stack.

I mean, to me, that poses no problem. But for someone who believes in MBTI, and functions, how does an ambivert happen?

You're assuming I haven't been down this line of thinking.

Creationists can't wrap their heads around evolution because their pet beliefs hold so much significance to them. Who cares?
 

Inquisitor

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For the second time in two days, I'm moved to ask, "Integrity much, Inquisitor?"

In our multiple previous back-and-forths on whether Jung thought it was possible to be ambiverted, I've never claimed Jung pointed to that as any kind of ideal. He did not.

Nor have I ever pointed to ambiversion as some kind of ideal state — and indeed, I've emphasized that I'm an agnostic on the issue of whether it's even possible for someone to be in what could meaningfully be framed as an exact middle position on the E/I spectrum.

And that "brilliant article" you quote in your OP is mostly off-topic if the issue isn't whether ambiversion is a to-be-desired state, but just whether it's possible, and it certainly doesn't seriously undermine any of the points I've made on the subject.

What you keep asserting, and what I've taken issue with, and continue to take issue with, is:

  • that anybody today is in a position to non-foolishly insist that, as a factual matter, it isn't possible for someone to be an ambivert; and
  • that, as a theoretical matter, it's inconsistent with Jung and the MBTI to allow for the possibility of ambiversion.
And to start by repeating what I just said in that other thread, after you boldly (and wrongly) asserted that "Nowhere in the foundational works is there any mention of an ambivert"...

From my first post:

As you and I have discussed at length (starting here), Jung viewed his eight types as four varieties of extravert and four varieties of introvert, while also declaring that more people were essentially in the middle on E/I than were significantly extraverted or introverted — and characterizing those ambiverts as "the normal man." And Myers allowed for the possibility of middleness on all four MBTI dimensions. So the idea of middleness on one or more dimensions goes all the way back to the MBTI's theoretical roots.

You're free to disagree with as many "foundational works" as you like, of course, but declaring that "nowhere in the foundational works is there any mention of an ambivert" is freaking ridiculous, unless you're just meaning to make the trivial semantic point that they didn't use the exact term "ambivert" to refer to the people in Jung's "middle group," who he said were neither extraverts nor introverts, and who he said were more common than either extraverts or introverts.​

And from my second post:

You can agree with Jung or disagree with Jung, but on some issues, what Jung said is more in the nature of a fact.

You say there's "no such thing as introversion and extraversion," but in fact, introversion and extraversion, as manifested in introverts and extraverts, was Jung's main subject in Psychological Types. He spent more time talking about the things he thought were characteristic of introverts (generally) and extraverts (generally) than he spent talking about all eight of the functions put together.

He thought Mother Nature had created extraverts and introverts because they were, in effect, two separate human subspecies who pursued two separate (not eight separate) reproductive strategies, each successful in its own way.

As I noted in my first post, Jung's eight function-attitude types were four varieties of extravert and four varieties of introvert. And he never discussed a dominant extraverted or introverted function outside the context of the person with that function either being an extravert or an introvert (as applicable).

And he really could not have been clearer than he was in that 1923 lecture — given two years after Psychological Types was published and later added by Jung to the Collected Works edition — where he first introduced his audience to the "extraverted" and "introverted" types, and then he said this:

There is, finally, a third group, and here it is hard to say whether the motivation comes chiefly from within or without. This group is the most numerous and includes the less differentiated normal man, who is considered normal either because he allows himself no excesses or because he has no need of them. The normal man is, by definition, influenced as much from within as from without. He constitutes the extensive middle group, on one side of which are those whose motivations are determined mainly by the external object, and, on the other, those whose motivations are determined from within. I call the first group extraverted, and the second group introverted.​

Your ability to read that paragraph and then declare to a forum audience that "Nowhere in the foundational works is there any mention of an ambivert" does not speak well for you, amigo.​

And for ease of reference, and just in case anyone's interested, I've recycled some more reckful (from another previous exchange we had) in the spoiler. You didn't really answer my questions then, and I'm guessing you're not really going to answer them now — and unless and until you do meaningfully address those issues, I doubt I'm going to have much, if anything, I want to add.

From this post:



Can you point to any respectable source for that?

You confidently assert that "there is no such thing as an ambivert." Well, first of all, it can be important to distinguish between theoretical assertions and factual assertions. Somebody might say they subscribe to a personality typology that theorizes that people have opposing preferences on four scales and there's no middle possibility, while acknowledging, at the same time, that there's no respectable body of studies that purports to establish, as a factual matter, that a person can't be in the middle. And somebody else might assert — as you seem to be doing — that as a factual matter, it's impossible to be in the middle with respect to one or more of the MBTI's dimensions.

Starting at the theoretical end, and for what it's worth, Jung viewed his eight types as four varieties of extravert and four varieties of introvert, while also declaring that more people were essentially in the middle on E/I than were significantly extraverted or introverted. ... [And] Myers ... allowed for the possibility of middleness on all four MBTI dimensions. ...

The official MBTI test is designed on the operational assumption that people have four preferences, and assigns people a (tentative) type on each dimension. But that's a very different thing from saying that the MBTI theory says that it isn't possible for someone to be in the middle on any dimension — and in fact, the MBTI Manual specifically notes that someone with a score near the middle is someone who has essentially "split the vote" rather than offered much evidence of a preference. And the more recent "Step II" version of the MBTI has five subscales for each dimension, and it's possible to come out on the E side (for example) of some of them and the I side of the rest.

And as I understand it, there's now quite a lot of accumulated data that suggests that most or all of the MBTI dichotomies (and the Big Five dimensions they correlate with) exhibit something along the lines of a normal distribution, with the majority of people in or not that far from the middle.

So... two final questions for you:

  • Are you under the impression that it's somehow been established, as a factual matter, that it's impossible for someone to be in the middle on any of the MBTI dimensions? If so, again, can you point us to any sources?

  • If, on the other hand, you don't think the impossibility of middleness has been factually established — and if you agree (as I hope you would) that the point of theories, generally speaking, is to account for the facts as well as possible — why would you want to theoretically exclude the in-the-middle possibility at this point?

And from this follow-up post:

Actually, I've never "lost this debate" with anybody, Inquisitor, and that's because, as I've said...

  • ... I don't know of any reasonably well-known modern MBTI theorist who's claimed — as you did in your first post — that "there is no such thing as an ambivert." In your second-to-last post, you said you "want to negate the possibility of middleness" because "from what I've read by type dynamics authors, there is no such thing" — and so I asked you to "kindly provide us with relevant quotes from two or three of these 'type dynamics authors' who you're inclined to treat as authorities on this issue." And ya know, it hasn't escaped my attention that you've so far failed to cite a single respectable "type dynamics author" for your proposition that "there is no such thing" as ambiversion.
  • Focusing at the factual level, I don't know of a single study, never mind anything like a respectably substantial body of studies, that has even attempted to establish anybody's theoretical position that it's impossible to be an ambivert — which, let's face it, is hardly surprising in light of the fact that (1) nobody respectable seems to be taking that theoretical position in the first place, and (2) given the limitations on our current ability to test preferences and preference strengths (not to mention potentially messy complications like multiple facets), how could anybody really purport to go about definitely disproving the possibility of ambiversion at this point?
So... it's pretty much just silly for you to be going around telling people who think they may be ambiverts that that's impossible, not to mention chiding them that the fact that they think it's possible shows that they don't "fully understand" the "existing categories."​

reckful the bottom line here is that if you believe exclusively in the dichotomies, then yes ambiversion is both theoretically and empirically possible and common. But if you believe in the functions as most people do then no, sorry, ambiversion is not possible. I'm not sure why you question my "integrity." We're approaching this from two different perspectives. If you like, keep believing whatever makes you happy. Ambiversion (two functions one I and one E that are equally well developed) is not possible. Let me make this crystal clear for you so there's no confusion:

Jung said:
Absolute sovereignty always belongs, empirically, to one function alone, and can belong only to one function, because the equally independent intervention of another function would necessarily … contradict the first

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that from a functional standpoint Jung believed that both empirically and theoretically, there can only be a single dominant function. Therefore, I'm sticking to my original claim. Ambiversion is not possible, and Jung said so. End of story.
 

reckful

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reckful the bottom line here is that if you believe exclusively in the dichotomies, then yes ambiversion is both theoretically and empirically possible and common. But if you believe in the functions as most people do then no, sorry, ambiversion is not possible. I'm not sure why you question my "integrity." We're approaching this from two different perspectives. If you like, keep believing whatever makes you happy. Ambiversion (two functions one I and one E that are equally well developed) is not possible. Let me make this crystal clear for you so there's no confusion:


This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that from a functional standpoint Jung believed that both empirically and theoretically, there can only be a single dominant function. Therefore, I'm sticking to my original claim. Ambiversion is not possible, and Jung said so. End of story.

It's not a dichotomies vs. functions issue, Inquisitor. You continue to assert that Jung didn't believe in E/I ambiverts, and as explained in my first post, that's simply nonsense. Again, you can agree or disagree with Jung, but as a factual matter, what Jung said was that over a third of the population (the "normal man") was neither extraverted nor introverted. And like it or not, neither extraverted nor introverted is what most people mean when they talk about "ambiverts."

Chapter 10 of Psychological Types is about Jung's eight types, and as I previously noted, Jung clearly — clearly, Inquisitor! — framed his eight types as four subtypes of introvert and four subtypes of extravert. And that quote in your latest post about the dominant function having "absolute sovereignty" is from the subsection of Chapter 10 where Jung talks about the function stack dynamics in one of his eight types.

As far as I know, how Jung thought the four (or eight) functions tended to manifest in a "normal man" who was neither an extravert nor an introvert (and therefore not one of Jung's eight types) is not something he ever had much to say about. And in any case, it isn't really relevant to the issue of whether Jung thought it was possible to be neither an extravert nor an introvert — an issue on which he really couldn't have been much clearer.

You say, "if you believe in the functions, ... then no, sorry, ambiversion is not possible," but Jung believed in the functions, and Jung also believed that it was not only possible, but also quite common, for somebody to be in the "third group" that was neither extraverted nor introverted.
 

Inquisitor

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As far as I know, how Jung thought the four (or eight) functions tended to manifest in a "normal man" who was neither an extravert nor an introvert (and therefore not one of Jung's eight types) is not something he ever had much to say about. And in any case, it isn't really relevant to the issue of whether Jung thought it was possible to be neither an extravert nor an introvert — an issue on which he really couldn't have been much clearer.

Actually it's really not clear to me why Jung said that the normal man could be influenced as much from within as from without when this obviously flies in the face of everything else in PT. You dismiss the fact that Jung never discussed the "normal man" in the context of the functions as irrelevant. But it's absolutely relevant. How can you not see that the absence of any discussion of ambiversion within a functional context is supportive of the fact that Jung thought it wasn't possible? If it were, he would have tied that back in with his earlier introduction in which he talks about the "normal man." But he didn't! That quote I reference is absolute. Jung even uses the word "absolute." Really reckful, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove to yourself here. There's not even a shred of ambiguity there.

You say, "if you believe in the functions, ... then no, sorry, ambiversion is not possible," but Jung believed in the functions, and Jung also believed that it was not only possible, but also quite common, for somebody to be in the "third group" that was neither extraverted nor introverted.

Why can't you see that the whole theory of the functions completely collapses if what you say is true? You cannot have according to Jung equally developed introverted and extraverted functions. That quote I referenced makes this clear beyond any shadow of a doubt. But if we now buy what you're suggesting, that Jung believed it was possible to be equally introverted and extraverted, then this necessarily means that Jung contradicted himself (which is certainly possible). But wherein lies the contradiction? You seem to think Jung actually was open to the possibility of the normal man having equally conscious I and E functions. I am saying this is very unlikely b/c then that would contradict that very absolutist quote I referenced, not to mention the fact that there are only 8 types in Chapter X, and no ambiverted types. There's also the fact that the passage you reference was an introduction for the audience, likely designed to legitimate his theory in the eyes of his audience so he did not seem too extreme. Many people after hearing the descriptions of introvert and extravert might likely at that point have thought that they didn't really fit into either category, and that's why Jung probably decided to include this section on the normal man...But actually, in his view, everyone is differentiated and those that are not have a primitive mentality. Therefore for Jung, "normalcy" = differentiated and ambiversion = archaic. You on the other hand are associating normalcy with ambiversion if we exclusively focus on that passage about the normal man, which is clearly not what Jung thought. Keep trying.
 

reckful

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Therefore for Jung, "normalcy" = differentiated and ambiversion = archaic. You on the other hand are associating normalcy with ambiversion if we exclusively focus on that passage about the normal man, which is clearly not what Jung thought. Keep trying.

As I've said, you're entitled to your opinions, fella, but you continue to insist on messing with the facts.

Jung specifically noted that his "normal man" — you know, the guy who was neither extraverted nor introverted — was like that because he was "less differentiated" than extraverts and introverts.

So when you say, "for Jung, 'normalcy' = differentiated," I can only say, "Keep trying."

Or better yet, hang it up.

Even that Shumate article you quoted discusses the fact that Jung's "normal man" was a man that Jung viewed as deficient in the differentiation department.

And while I'm on the subject of Shumate, allow me to note that she's both a HaroldGrantian and a Beebean, so her model of the psyche is far from Jung's. And it's maybe worth noting that, although you've asked me ...

Anyway, why not worship everything [Jung] said? It was amazing. And what are these questionable ideas that he had regarding psychological types? You gotta read the foundational works first...

... it has hardly escaped my attention that you're prone to "worship" Jung when you think his views on some aspect of type match yours, but you're happy to ignore what he says — or point to typologists whose models contradict his in major ways (e.g., the Grant function stack) — when it suits you.
 

TheManBeyond

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I really care little about these long posts about i am right you are wrong, etc but i do have a question. I would like to have an explanation for readaptation.

I remember when i was doing my studies abroad and meeting tons shit of guys and girls like me and my body and mind were about to explode for so much party, drinks, cigarettes and sex. At those times i couldn't be quiet in my place cuz iliterally everything that required a bit of instrospection, reading this forum, posting here, reading a book, watching a tv show or whatsoever was super boring, i just couldn't hold my ass in my bed. I needed to go out and experience random shit. Flirt with girls, get drunk, walk around, not so much talking to people but looking at them, expecting for some kind of surprise.
Then coming home felt like dying for about 1 month and a half.
But after that here i am, apparently recovered, enjoying to full extention the conversations i hold with myself or those imaginary interviewers or random friends of the past who are not here with me anymore, reading weird shit in the internet, from conspiracy theories to fox news, reading thus spoke tharathustra, watching a lot of youtube videos, interviews of people i admire, random humor videos, god i thought i could never again enjoy them, trying to understand meanings behind pieces of art, improving my basic knowledge on video edition, trying to understand better mbti, making videoclips lol, participating in this forum, coming up with ideas for future non likely realizable projects, etc.
Why is that ¿?
Jung!!! i summon you!!! clear my doubts about typology!!!

*pounding drums, tribal chants*
 

Inquisitor

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As I've said, you're entitled to your opinions, fella, but you continue to insist on messing with the facts.

Jung specifically noted that his "normal man" — you know, the guy who was neither extraverted nor introverted — was like that because he was "less differentiated" than extraverts and introverts.

So when you say, "for Jung, 'normalcy' = differentiated," I can only say, "Keep trying."

Or better yet, hang it up.

Even that Shumate article you quoted discusses the fact that Jung's "normal man" was a man that Jung viewed as deficient in the differentiation department.

And while I'm on the subject of Shumate, allow me to note that she's both a HaroldGrantian and a Beebean, so her model of the psyche is far from Jung's. And it's maybe worth noting that, although you've asked me ...


... it has hardly escaped my attention that you're prone to "worship" Jung when you think his views on some aspect of type match yours, but you're happy to ignore what he says — or point to typologists whose models contradict his in major ways (e.g., the Grant function stack) — when it suits you.

This whole thing started with someone coming on here and saying they wanted to alter the existing categories. I said that ambiversion was not possible. And I meant it. After all this investigation, it's clear that Jung thought the only ambiverts were those who had a primitive mentality. Think people living in the jungle.

Shumate said:
An analyst who studied with Jung, Joseph Wheelwright (1982, pp. 14-15), mentioned the Aitutaki tribe in the Pacific as capable of flipping rapidly between introversion and extraversion. So apparently ambiversion can exist. But Wheelwright concurred with Jung, who called this “the mark of a primitive mentality” (1921/1971, para. 667).

It has not escaped my notice reckful that this was never a part of your argument. Civilized human beings in Jung's mind, it would seem, are rarely if ever ambiverts. The MBTI makes clear that "splitting the vote" means tension between the poles and confusion. So when someone with access to the internet posts asking about ambiversion and creating a new "ANTP" category, the right thing is to give them a firm "no." They're just confused about their type, and they need to do more exploration. That way they can ultimately learn to function more authentically and make progress in their individuation. The dangers of ambivalence are well-described by Shumate, and the comments on that page are also equally insightful. If you don't take some steps down a certain road, you'll never know more about yourself. That's what happened to me. I typed myself as an INTP, and I found out over time that I was wrong. Now I'm typing myself as an ENTP and going down another road. I gotta say I feel more myself now than I have in some time. The point is, unless you try, you'll never know for sure.

As for the Harold Grant model, is it perfect? No. Read this:

Function Models for Skeptics, Part 1
By Eva Gregersen, Ryan Smith, and Sigurd Arild

Since some criticisms have been leveled at our use of functions and the model we employ, some discussion of the use of functions may be in order.

Criticisms of Functions and Function Models That Are Discussed in This Article:

1. The Standard Model is of dubious scholarly origin.
1.1 Jung didn’t endorse it.
1.2 Myers didn’t endorse it.
1.3 The proprietors of the MBTI have not endorsed it.

Overview of Terminology

Before we proceed to discuss the specific criticisms, some brief definitions may be helpful. Readers already familiar with these terms may skip to the next heading.

Function Dynamics refers to the view of types as determined by the interplay of functions, as well as (or rather than) by the four dichotomies.
The Standard Model refers to the arrangement of functions according to a scheme of EIEI (for extroverts) and IEIE (for introverts). An INFP would thus have the functions Fi-Ne-Si-Te.
The Nucleus Model refers to the arrangement of functions according to a scheme of EEII (for extroverts) and IIEE (for introverts). An INFP would thus have the functions Fi-Ni-Se-Te.
The One-Three Model refers to the arrangement of functions according to a scheme of EIII (for extroverts) and IEEE (for introverts). An INFP would thus have the functions Fi-Ne-Se-Te.
With these definitions in place, we will now proceed to address the criticisms.

1 The Standard Model is of dubious scholarly origin

Possible. Some critics and commentators like to call the Standard Model the “Harold Grant Model,” since it allegedly originated with Harold Grant’s book From Image to Likeness (Paulist Press 1983). Collateral criticisms tend to include observations that Grant was not part of the mainstream type community and that his book fused typology with a Christian worldview in which the preferences were gifts from God.

In responding to these criticisms, we should note that the origin of an idea is separate from whatever truth it may hold. For example, the first person to have discovered that two and two equals four might have been deranged in many other respects. That does not subtract from the claim that two and two are four. Conversely, Jung believed in many curious things, such as poltergeists and extra-sensory perception, that most modern-day typologists do not believe in, but these idiosyncrasies do not invalidate Jung’s contributions to typology itself.[1] In both cases we evaluate ideas as ideas and not on the basis of what the specific people who coined them otherwise believed. We should extend the same courtesy to Grant.

Next, it is important to note that we do not actually know whether the Standard Model originated with Grant. For his part, Grant claimed to have learned the model from Myers, and as we shall see, Myers had allegedly shown some support for the standard model sometime before her death in 1980 (three years before Grant’s book hit print).[2] Likewise, operating off an independent line of research, the American typologist John Beebe ended up positing a similar function model at a conference in 1983 and published findings similar to Grant’s in 1984.[3]

In fact, during the 1980s and early 1990s, a whole range of other typologists (like Brownsword, Kroeger, Thuesen, and Jefferies) also spoke up in support of the Standard Model (although some were writing off the basis of Grant and not off independent theorizing like Beebe). Hence even if the Standard Model was Grant’s idea, and even if Grant was an outsider, his idea has nevertheless been recognized as meritorious by Myers and other researchers besides. Thus, the “dubious scholarly origins” critique really has very little going for it once properly examined.

1.1 Jung didn’t endorse the Standard Model

True. It is not clear what type of function model Jung envisaged when he wrote Psychological Types. In several places, he appears to support the One-Three Model as defined above. For example, describing the Ti types, Jung says that they have “counterbalancing functions of feeling, intuition, and sensation [which] are comparatively unconscious and inferior, and therefore have a primitive extraverted character” which suggests that he viewed the function order as IEEE.[4] It was from this passage, and others like it, that Myers derived what she took to be Jung’s support for the One-Three Model, although orthodox Jungians tended to prefer the Nucleus Model (IIEE) instead.[5]

With regards to the One-Three model, the contention is sometimes voiced that Myers was the only theorist to interpret Jung in such a way, but this is far from correct. Orthodox Jungians, such as Edward Whitmont, have read Jung as advancing such a model as well.[6] Beebe reads Jung to say much the same thing, although he does not agree with the One-Three model.[7]

However, elsewhere in Psychological Types, Jung appeared to support the Nucleus Model instead. For example, speaking of Nietzsche’s type, Jung says that: “He must surely be reckoned as an intuitive type with an inclination towards the side of introversion. … His aphoristic writings are expressive of his introverted intellectual side.”[8] With the implication being that “intellect” is often used as a synonym for Thinking in Psychological Types. The Nucleus Model has traditionally been the most popular conception among classical Jungians, with theorists like van der Hoop and C.A. Meier explicitly supporting it.[9] But as we said, it is not entirely clear whether this was really what Jung meant. He certainly seemed to speak of the One-Three Model in more than one place.

Hence the One-Three or Nucleus Model appear to be the closest to what Jung would have envisaged, had he cared to commit to a specific function model. It is thus true, as the critics allege, that Jung did not use the Standard Model.

1.2 Myers didn’t endorse the Standard Model

True and false. As we have seen, Myers originally read Jung as supporting the One-Three model (so that accounts for the true). On the other hand, several sources report that prior to her death in 1980 (three years before Grant’s book) Myers had allegedly changed her stance so that she was now agnostic with regards to the merits of the One-Three model when compared to the Standard model.[10] She knew that she didn’t believe in the Nucleus Model, but found it harder to decide between the Standard and One-Three Models.

However, when critics allege that Myers did not support the Standard Model, they are not simply making a historical comment. They are using her alleged divergence from it as a proxy for how to judge its merits. As we said above, ideas should ideally be judged on the basis of their content, not on their history. But if we play along, the fact that Myers eventually amended her system to accommodate the Standard Model constitutes an act of endorsement. So insofar as our sources are correct that Myers revised her views, the critics’ claim that Myers did not endorse the Standard Model is more false than true.

1.3 The proprietors of the MBTI have not endorsed the Standard Model

True and false. As mentioned, Myers originally supported the One-Three Model, thinking that it had its basis in Jung. But as we also noted, Myers allegedly changed her view so as to allow for either the One-Three Model or the Standard Model in her system. It is true that the MBTI Manual seems to give preference to the One-Three Model, but the last edition of the Manual was published in 1998 and is no longer up-to-date. Get your hands on a modern-day piece of MBTI training material, and you will most likely see that those resources purposefully avoid defining the orientation of the tertiary function because the proprietors of the MBTI, like Myers herself, moved from supporting the One-Three Model to giving the respondent the choice between the One-Three and Standard Models. In her guide to the MBTI instrument, one of the authors who helped pen the last edition of the Manual sums up the matter as follows:

“Myers and Briggs assumed it [i.e. the tertiary function] was opposite to that of the dominant function, as were the auxiliary and inferior functions. This convention was followed in all three MBTI manuals, although there are alternative views regarding the issue. Because there is relatively little theoretical or empirical evidence favoring one attitude or the other as habitual for the tertiary function, its attitude is not specified in this book.”[11]

Thus, while the proprietors of the MBTI do not endorse the Standard Model as the sine qua non of function models, they nevertheless do endorse it. They are not saying that anything goes, but giving the respondent a choice between two very specific function models. And the Standard Model is one of them.

Concluding Remarks to Part 1

All of the criticisms examined in this article take the form of “Authority X didn’t believe in the Standard Model.” While some readers would undoubtedly prefer to just waive the words “appeal to authority is a fallacy!” around as a wand that magically neutralizes 100 years of theorizing by experts, we would not be quite so daring ourselves. The authorities may be wrong, of course. But as a rule, irreverent one-liners are not the kind of contributions that will show it. Since the theory of functions is quite complex and has only a minuscule amount of empirical content, that means that this is exactly the kind of theory where the words of experts will weigh in the strongest.[12]

Of all the experts examined, the only one who can positively be said not to have used the Standard Model is C.G. Jung himself. This is hardly surprising, as Jung most likely had no function model at all when he wrote Psychological Types.[13] Thus, while the litany of accusations against the Standard Model may sound impressive at first glance, almost all of the points turn out to be misleading when examined in their proper contexts.

Finally, it is important to note that what we’re doing on this site is not “Myers-Briggs,” but a function-based rendition of Jung’s typology in the tradition of Jung, van der Hoop, von Franz, and Myers. The Myers-Briggs is a specific psychometric instrument and operationalization of Jung’s typology, and probably the most well-validated “Jung Type Test” in existence. It is, however, also a subset of the field and not the field itself.

***

Myers-Briggs Type Indicator and MBTI are trademarks of the MBTI Trust, Inc.

CelebrityTypes.com is an independent research venture, which has no affiliation with the MBTI Trust, Inc.
 

reckful

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This whole thing started with someone coming on here and saying they wanted to alter the existing categories. I said that ambiversion was not possible. And I meant it. After all this investigation, it's clear that Jung thought the only ambiverts were those who had a primitive mentality. Think people living in the jungle.
...
As for the Harold Grant model, is it perfect? No. Read this:

You can dodge and weave all you like, but the fact remains that, regardless of what "primitive" and "archaic" characteristics Jung may have associated with an undifferentiated psyche — and if you've read much Jung on that subject, you know that he thought there were advantages as well as disadvantages to having a more undifferentiated psyche (including as exhibited in several "primitive" cultures that he'd visited in his world travels) — Jung believed that the "undifferentiated" people who were neither extraverts nor introverts included the "normal men" who made up (as he saw it) over one-third of his fellow modern Europeans.

As for that CelebrityTypes article, I've had communications with those folks, and I think it's fair to say that article was written first and foremost as a response to my forum posts.

And it's not a very good response.

It's true that I'm always pointing out that the Harold Grant function stack is inconsistent with Jung, inconsistent with Myers, and has never been endorsed by the official MBTI folks, buuut I'm in total agreement with the CelebrityTypes gang that at the end of the day, it's not "authority" that matters. The most important reason to dismiss the Harold Grant function stack is that, unlike the respectable districts of the MBTI, it has no substantial body of evidence behind it — and indeed, should probably be considered all but disproven at this point.

And in case anyone's interested in reading a fair amount of input from me on the relationship between the dichotomies and the functions, the place of the functions (or lack thereof) in the MBTI's history, and the tremendous gap between the dichotomies and the functions in terms of scientific respectability — not to mention the unbearable bogosity of the Harold Grant function stack — they can find a lot of potentially eye-opening discussion in this post and this post.
 

Inquisitor

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Jung believed that the "undifferentiated" people who were neither extraverts nor introverts included the "normal men" who made up (as he saw it) over one-third of his fellow modern Europeans.

Sorry. That's factually incorrect. See my previous post.

As for that CelebrityTypes article, I've had communications with those folks, and I think it's fair to say that article was written first and foremost as a response to my forum posts.

And it's not a very good response.

How very humble of you.

It's true that I'm always pointing out that the Harold Grant function stack is inconsistent with Jung, inconsistent with Myers, and has never been endorsed by the official MBTI folks, buuut I'm in total agreement with the CelebrityTypes gang that at the end of the day, it's not "authority" that matters. The most important reason to dismiss the Harold Grant function stack is that, unlike the respectable districts of the MBTI, it has no substantial body of evidence behind it — and indeed, should probably be considered all but disproven at this point.

And in case anyone's interested in reading a fair amount of input from me on the relationship between the dichotomies and the functions, the place of the functions (or lack thereof) in the MBTI's history, and the tremendous gap between the dichotomies and the functions in terms of scientific respectability — not to mention the unbearable bogosity of the Harold Grant function stack — they can find a lot of potentially eye-opening discussion in this post and this post.

People only care about "scientific respectability" if it accords with their personal experience and helps them achieve a more balanced and nuanced view of their own psyche. This whole thing was never meant to purely objective. It's impossible. You want to reduce typology to a bunch of statistics? Go ahead. You're going to miss half of the truth (probably a lot more actually) in the process.

Jung said:
I mistrust the principle of "pure observation" in so-called objective psychology unless one confines oneself to the eye-pieces of chronoscopes and tachistoscopes and suchlike "psychological" apparatus.
 

Haim

Worlds creator
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Ambiversion (two functions one I and one E that are equally well developed) is not possible.
Being both a child and an old person is not possible, am I a child or an old person?do you understand your logical fault here?
like a 30 years men is not both child and old person, an Ambivert is not both introvert and extrovert, Ambivert is a range which his middle is near to the Introvert/Extrovert scale.
I will say again, you mistake Introvert and Extrovert labels as actual things instead of just labels,words.
Of course you can not label something as both things, the point of labeling is to separate to categorizes, but you need to remember it is just an artificial thing we created.In realty there are no labels, Ambivert is like a Mule, a Mule cant be labeled as Horse nor a donkey, yet it exist, therefore the limit is in your labels you need a new word to describe a thing which does not belong to either of your extreme labels.
Ambivert is Gray.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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No.

You're assuming I haven't been down this line of thinking.

Creationists can't wrap their heads around evolution because their pet beliefs hold so much significance to them. Who cares?

I'm not assuming anything about you. I'm just responding to your post. Maybe it's unfair to consider your words without context, but not everyone has the context. It's very easy to read your posts as coming from somewhere less considered than their actual origin.

You're saying that people are both introverted and extroverted all the time. But this doesn't seem like a useful point to make since both MBTI and ambivert positions would expect this.

It's not hard to find people who're conditionally extraverted and enjoy social activities, while also enjoying independent things for other reasons. But hey let's just say that's not true because, "functions".

Nobody's saying that isn't true. See? MBTI doesn't make easily disproven claims like that.

We don't need to do this if you don't want, I know you deleted a post 'cos you couldn't be arsed. Fair enough. I don't think either of us actually disagree here on position.
 

Reluctantly

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Archetypes really aren't meant to substitute for reality (unless you want to be a generalizing, stereotyping asshole). But it can be fun for coloring life. Everything else is just a war of semantics imo.

but meh,
 

redbaron

irony based lifeform
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We don't need to do this if you don't want, I know you deleted a post 'cos you couldn't be arsed. Fair enough. I don't think either of us actually disagree here on position.

I don't really care, if I have time I post and if not I don't. I just didn't want to make it a bigger issue than it really is.

The simple fact is that MBTI, Jung and also experimental observation all dictate that people are comprised of a combination of both introverted and extraverted traits - right?

"Ambivert" is defined in the Merrian-Webster dictionary as "a person having characteristics of both extrovert and introvert."

So quite obviously, it's the norm for pretty much everyone to be ambiverted. The only people who're "hardcore" introverted or extraverted, have mental disorders. Not only that, you can pretty much see this trend in any typical human you meet.

But no, let's do some mental gymnastics to say that ambiverts don't exist, even though Jung, MBTI and all kinds of research all indicate that any normal human being who's not suffering from some kind of mental disorder is going to be ambiverted.
 
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