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Aliens.

Agent Intellect

Absurd Anti-hero.
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If you were able to send a message to an alien civilization, much like the Voyager or the Arecibo message, what would you say to them? What sort of information might be pertinent to let another intelligence know they are not alone? How would you communicate this message, not knowing what sorts of senses an alien organism might have (they would have to be able to decode the message and percieve it)?

What is your official position on alien visitation?

If aliens are visiting our planet, what do you think they are like? Biological, mechanical (ie, merged with their technology)? Swarm intelligence or single consciousness? Do they interact with or perceive reality the way humans do? Or even think/communicate the same way humans do? Feel free to let your imagination run wild.

How would you react to alien visitation (as in, they have made it very clear that they are here, perhaps by landing and interacting with people)? Do you think they would be peaceful, openly hostile, or maybe conniving back stabbers (act nice but are plotting against us)?
 

Reverse Transcriptase

"you're a poet whether you like it or not"
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The book Blindsight: http://rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm is totally related to this thread.

And I'm going to quote from it:
Enter text here.
Once there were three tribes. The Optimists, whose patron saints were Drake and Sagan, believed in a universe crawling with gentle intelligence—spiritual brethren vaster and more enlightened than we, a great galactic siblinghood into whose ranks we would someday ascend. Surely, said the Optimists, space travel implies enlightenment, for it requires the control of great destructive energies. Any race which can't rise above its own brutal instincts will wipe itself out long before it learns to bridge the interstellar gulf.

Across from the Optimists sat the Pessimists, who genuflected before graven images of Saint Fermi and a host of lesser lightweights. The Pessimists envisioned a lonely universe full of dead rocks and prokaryotic slime. The odds are just too low, they insisted. Too many rogues, too much radiation, too much eccentricity in too many orbits. It is a surpassing miracle that even one Earth exists; to hope for many is to abandon reason and embrace religious mania. After all, the universe is fourteen billion years old: if the galaxy were alive with intelligence, wouldn't it be here by now?

Equidistant to the other two tribes sat the Historians. They didn't have too many thoughts on the probable prevalence of intelligent, spacefaring extraterrestrials— but if there are any, they said, they're not just going to be smart. They're going to be mean.

====(Above this line is the important stuff. You can read on below, for an elaboration on the Historian tribe's philosophy.)========

It might seem almost too obvious a conclusion. What is Human history, if not an ongoing succession of greater technologies grinding lesser ones beneath their boots? But the subject wasn't merely Human history, or the unfair advantage that tools gave to any given side; the oppressed snatch up advanced weaponry as readily as the oppressor, given half a chance. No, the real issue was how those tools got there in the first place. The real issue was what tools are for.

To the Historians, tools existed for only one reason: to force the universe into unnatural shapes. They treated nature as an enemy, they were by definition a rebellion against the way things were. Technology is a stunted thing in benign environments, it never thrived in any culture gripped by belief in natural harmony. Why invent fusion reactors if your climate is comfortable, if your food is abundant? Why build fortresses if you have no enemies? Why force change upon a world which poses no threat?

Human civilization had a lot of branches, not so long ago. Even into the twenty-first century, a few isolated tribes had barely developed stone tools. Some settled down with agriculture. Others weren't content until they had ended nature itself, still others until they'd built cities in space.

We all rested eventually, though. Each new technology trampled lesser ones, climbed to some complacent asymptote, and stopped—until my own mother packed herself away like a larva in honeycomb, softened by machinery, robbed of incentive by her own contentment.

But history never said that everyone had to stop where we did. It only suggested that those who had stopped no longer struggled for existence. There could be other, more hellish worlds where the best Human technology would crumble, where the environment was still the enemy, where the only survivors were those who fought back with sharper tools and stronger empires. The threats contained in those environments would not be simple ones. Harsh weather and natural disasters either kill you or they don't, and once conquered—or adapted to— they lose their relevance. No, the only environmental factors that continued to matter were those that fought back, that countered new strategies with newer ones, that forced their enemies to scale ever-greater heights just to stay alive. Ultimately, the only enemy that mattered was an intelligent one.

And if the best toys do end up in the hands of those who've never forgotten that life itself is an act of war against intelligent opponents, what does that say about a race whose machines travel between the stars?

The argument was straightforward enough. It might even have been enough to carry the Historians to victory—if such debates were ever settled on the basic of logic, and if a bored population hadn't already awarded the game to Fermi on points. But the Historian paradigm was just too ugly, too Darwinian, for most people, and besides, no one really cared any more. Not even the Cassidy Survey's late-breaking discoveries changed much. So what if some dirtball at Ursae Majoris Eridani had an oxygen atmosphere? It was forty-three lightyears away, and it wasn't talking.
 

Anthile

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Few weeks ago I read an article about the Arecibo message. If the aliens don't have some freaky technology the message is quite literally lost in space. I'll try to find the article again and write more then.


However, considering how expensive and time-consuming space travel seems to be the prospect of interstellar warfare seems dubious.
 

Agent Intellect

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warryer

and Heimdal's horn sounds
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I had this conversation a few months ago with a friend of mine. We came to the conclusion that using physical laws would be the best way to go. The reason being that physical laws are constant no matter who or what you are.

We would have to assume that these aliens percieve reality as we do oherwise whats the point. Furthermore how can we comprehend something beyond what we experience?

A repeating electromagnetic signal would be best. I like the idea of sending a signal describing our DNA and bits and pieces of our culture. However I wouldn't do so until I was sure our technology was strong enough to fight off a potential enemy.

I don't really know how signals are transmitted, I will assume they travel spherically outward. Which I think is the best way because we can cover every possible location... eventually.

As for aliens being here today? I don't really know. I haven't reasearched anything about the subject. I suppose it's possible.

 

Cognisant

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I'd say it's fairly certain there are aliens, somewhere.
Beyond that there's (at a guess) a 50/50 chance they know we exist.

But if aliens do exist and they know of us, chances are they really just don't care.
To a species of interstellar alien we would be like a little ant carrying a breadcrumb and saying in it's little anty voice "No, NO, Don't take my feast".

If we're of any interest to anyone out there, it's as a momentary curiosity, that's all.
We have nothing of value, we know nothing of value, we are without value.
Our entire planet is a breadcrumb.
 

bluesquid

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I think there is something out there. As for it visiting?

no.

google

project blue beam
 

Inappropriate Behavior

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If you were able to send a message to an alien civilization, much like the Voyager or the Arecibo message, what would you say to them?

Abandon all hope ye who enter here.

What is your official position on alien visitation?

I think it is possible and nothing more or less than that. We have been broadcasting our position to anyone in the neighborhood for some time so if we aren't known about by others already we could soon enough.


If anyone has found us, I would imagine they are studying us much like a marine biologists scuba dives into the ocean to study the fish.

If aliens are visiting our planet, what do you think they are like? Biological, mechanical (ie, merged with their technology)? Swarm intelligence or single consciousness? Do they interact with or perceive reality the way humans do? Or even think/communicate the same way humans do? Feel free to let your imagination run wild.

Okay, but it will have to wait until my imagination is working again. I'll need about a week of intense isolation for that. But for now....the optimistic wus inside me hopes they may view us as potential partners if we manage to develop into something worthy enough. The misanthrope inside me hopes they harvest humans for food (this is easy for me since I know I'm already rotted out and spoiled. I'm sure aliens like their food fresh)

How would you react to alien visitation (as in, they have made it very clear that they are here, perhaps by landing and interacting with people)?

I think I'd be relieved to some extent even though I know the damaging effect it will have on our society as a whole (at least in the short run). I personally would have a hard time wiping the smug off my face.
 

fullerene

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A repeating electromagnetic signal would be best. I like the idea of sending a signal describing our DNA and bits and pieces of our culture. However I wouldn't do so until I was sure our technology was strong enough to fight off a potential enemy.​

I thought the same thing--opening up our biology to foreign creatures doesn't seem like the best idea. Although, if space-warfare were technologically possible for them, I'm sure they could gut someone and learn all they wanted to anyway.

I don't think a repeating anything would be a good idea. At least the way our brains are wired, we write off repeating things all the time. Think about sleep, for instance--everyone does it, and they do it a lot, and we don't know why... but we do. Imagine if we all slept because aliens were spewing out sleep-inducing waves, thinking that it would be proof of intelligent life elsewhere to other beings in the universe. People fell asleep at different times and in different amounts because they have various resistences to them, but eventually the sleep-waves win. We would have no idea at all.

I suspect that periodic radiation bursts would be interpreted by aliens as one of those types of things. I suppose if they're sufficiently inquisitive, they'd eventually question why it was only coming from our planet, but... meh.

As for aliens... don't know if they're out there or not. There definitely are a lot of sketchy stories to suggest them, though, I agree. I've no idea why governments would even care about covering them up, though. Maybe they would find some reasons to cover it up in hindsight.... but to have them in mind from the very first alien encounter? That's a little hard to believe.

If our (somewhat crazy) cosmological models are accurate, though, it won't matter eventually anyway. As space expands, it gets harder and harder to cross the distance, and eventually (it's theorized) it'll expand so fast that we'll start to lose sight of planets/stars on the edge of our vision--because it expands faster than the speed of light can travel. If that's truly happening, we likely won't be able to contact any other worlds eventually.
 

Fleur

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Knowing the receivers will make conclusions based on the information they received, at the beginning of the of the message it would be noted that it is created by individuals and should not be taken as a mirror of the whole civilization. Also, it would be reminded that at the time when the message reaches sapient (human-like sapience) beings the race of senders could be already vanished/changed.

Probably the message would consist of few people shortly telling about the Earth and human culture to inform and show the diversity of opinions at the same time.

I guess a spacecraft could be one of the best ways, it is very unlikely that it could be mistaken for something else what could have a natural origin.

*after several billions of years the spacecraft falls on some inhabited planet where it is swallowed by a giant alien squid*

I do believe that alien life-forms exist, but it does not necessarily mean they are intelligent enough to understand or visit us. Assuming that the aliens have to have at least human level of intelligence appears to be same as assuming that this type of intelligence is a natural conclusion of life's existence.

But if they really developed this way and have the technology to visit us, we should not automatically think that it means they also are socially superior. I have often heard opinion that aliens do not contact us directly because they see humans same as we see most of the other animals, so, if the aliens revealed themselves, it most likely would end with either a hate action (as the "humans - lower than aliens" opinion holders would think) or an uncritical adoption of most of the alien technology/social norms. If the aliens stay and the cross-breading is possible, it could happen that the half-breeds would be held higher as the "pure" humans.

Well, if some alien race has sent expeditions in order to find other intelligent life-forms and used "generation ships", it is quite likely that their social structure has changed, so those visitors by any means could not be seen as being exactly like their core culture was/is. Although a race which can allow to send such expeditions most likely can biologically stop their life processes at will.

If humans have began to search for the life on planets which can have environment similar to the Earth's, would not it be possible that they end up finding what could have happened if the earthling evolution took a different way? Especially if we assume that the Earth's life actually has an extraterrestrial descend.
 

Cognisant

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If the aliens stay and the cross-breading is possible, it could happen that the half-breeds would be held higher as the "pure" humans.
Using the term "breeding" loosely I assume.
I have great difficulty believing any alien species we encounter will still posses their original biological form, indeed the very idea of limiting oneself to a single form or location would seem quaint. At best we'll either encounter remarkably human like proxies (metaphorically being spoken to via a finger puppet) or the demigod like physical constructs that contain their consciousnesses, what we (in our ignorance) would call a ship.
 

FusionKnight

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The advantage to using EM pulses is that they travel at the speed of light. If/when some method of circumventing the light-speed limit is discovered, other manners of long-distance communication might be better.

I would advocate starting the transmission with a series of primes, Fibonacci, or some other unique pattern. Simple repeating signals could be natural phenomenon, as crypt said, pulsars, for example.

After the primes were transmitted for long enough that it would be obvious to an observer what it was, then I'd transmit examples of basic mathematical operations, constructing a type of mathematical Morse code. Once the math is communicated, one could move on to star maps, sending the distance to periodic pulsars and their frequencies. Then move on to physics, chemistry, etc.

A question I have always had is this: why do we always assume that Earth is on the bottom of the technological food chain? Maybe we're at the top, and other sentient races in the galaxy are just inventing the wheel. Perhaps we are the powerful interstellar race that will one day visit other worlds - and they will wonder about our motives...
 

Agent Intellect

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A question I have always had is this: why do we always assume that Earth is on the bottom of the technological food chain? Maybe we're at the top, and other sentient races in the galaxy are just inventing the wheel. Perhaps we are the powerful interstellar race that will one day visit other worlds - and they will wonder about our motives...

This could be true, but when looking for intelligent life, it's generally more conducive to look for something that is looking back. Of course, it could also be true that another intelligent life form does not even use EM waves of any sort for communication - perhaps they use gravitational waves to transmit signals, and we have been getting them for years and just haven't noticed (or they have been getting our EM waves and haven't noticed).

This is sort of the idea that runs through my head when thinking about intelligent life, the fact that we assume they would be anything like us, or that they would perceive the universe the same way we do. It's possible that the organisms see in infrared light instead of what we call visible light; or that they communicate using smells and pheromones instead of visual/auditory signals, or even through a paracrine like transfer of chemicals/proteins; or the organisms might sense things in some way that's completely incomprehensible to us; or the intelligence would be a swarm intelligence like an ant colony that has collectively become highly intelligent, even if each individual component is stupid.

I think that's the fun of thought experiments like this, is to try and get people out of the anthropomorphically centered way of thinking about the universe. I would tend to agree with Cognisant that any being that has found it's way to our humble speck of dust will almost certainly have merged themselves with their technology. Of course, it's possible that the organism would not have even been what we might consider organic when it first emerged, so it might actually be difficult to discern with an alien race what's biological and what's mechanical in the first place - my point is, I don't think anything that would be similar to us in it's makeup (chemical or otherwise) or even physiology is visiting our planet.

In the end, though, while I find it interesting to speculate on the different ways that astrobiology could be formulated or evolved, about the only thing we can do on a practical level is basically what FusionKnight said. Math does seem to be the logical first step in making contact with something and showing that we at least have some rudimentary understanding of the universe.
 
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