Airtight INTx pitfall

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Yea, that would be one of the solutions... In fact, I wouldn't need a book, if I would want this solution. There is a problem though: I do not like meaningless conversations, people who doesn't understand half of the words I use in my sentence and I don't drink. That covers pretty much everything that most people does, doesn't it? I believe that most INTPs feels the same way, Eimantas.

This post triggered some thoughts from the past couple weekends.

Two weekends ago I met this guy, Sam. I was meeting some people in one of Seattle's parks, and apparently he had just introduced himself and joined us, which is super cool. I wish I could do that more often! I talked to him and it was cool how we shared a lot of interests-- biology, programming and whatnot. He's a bit younger than me (21 to my 24) but that doesn't mean too much.

After the first afternoon/evening with him I noticed some interesting personality ticks with him. He seemed to have low self-guidance... he was often looking for extra social queues to spring into action. I totally understood that... and maybe helped him a couple times by repeating something. On the other side of the same coin, he kinda annoyed me sometimes by repeating things he had already said and explaining things that I already understood. (We're both passionate about biology & programming, but before we knew how much the other person knew it was Very easy to annoy the other by explaining trivial things.) I bet I annoyed him a bit too.

When he & I were walking home I asked if he was familiar with the Myers-Briggs, and he said that he tested as an INTJ.
=====
Following weekend, there was a party in the park! Electronic music in Seattle's volunteer park. I went, mingled with burners, and ended up talking with Sam again. My analysis (opinion?) of him had precipitated.

Sam uses needlessly complex words, and even admitted to us that he tends to speak jibberish! (Which is weird... I wonder if he thinks that the jibberish is justified?) I mean, I recognized the words, but his sentences took too long to parse for me to keep up. I am not denying that he's smart in this respect.

But Sam, T., B., and I got into this long debate about knowledge, nihilism, perception, life. T. was just listening (and possibly on shrooms). B. has an strong intensity to him and he wasn't going to little the jibberish fly. B. consistently cut to the crux of Sam's points, or demanded clarification. Instead of simply repeating himself in basic terms, Sam kept on... not complying. I feel like B. (and I) conveyed that we wanted him to properly define & defend certain points, but Sam kept on jumping to other topics! Jumping to other topics, other TED talks, other scientific research. I'm sure that they all form a beautiful logical web, but his symptoms were that he kept on retreating from our arguments.

What are the reasons for this? Well I guess it could be that we're too daft for him. It could also be that he didn't understand what kind of elaboration we were asking for. It could also be that he was losing his arguments, and either didn't know how to defend them or couldn't defend them, so he resorted to tangents.

The crowning moment came when B. spoke about communication. He said that the point of communicating is not to espose one's views, it's not to speak truths & knowledges. It's about being understood.

As INTxs, we are smarter than 90% of humanity. Some of those stubborn minds will refuse to hear our words, but most won't. If we're smarter than them, the onus isn't on them to understand us, the onus is on us to phrase our words in a way that understood.

My manager is an SJ and I have to deal with this uncomfortable idea everyday. Yes, the non-NTs (and especially non-Ns!) think is low-leveled dumb ways. It hurts my brain to phrase things in ways that they want to hear them. But I do myself more good by doing that and communicating my ideas in their format.

(intpz, I'm definitely not accusing you of this, your post just catalyzed my thought process.)

 

[psion]

I know someone just like your Sam, and I find that people like that are just smart enough to think they know everything about anything but not smart enough to realize that they are just spewing bullshit. They think that the fact that no one can understand their point means that it must be beyond the mental capacities of others, when in actuality it is just an obvious method of tiptoeing around the fact that they don't really know what they are talking about.

There are bound to be people like this on the lower side of the INTP/INTJ intelligence scale. It could also be that this Sam does understand what he is trying to say but is one of those people for which words and explanations do not come easily.

I would admit to becoming frustrated with certain people who don't understand what I am saying even if I have reduced it to easily understood terms, at that point I just give up.

 

[EditorOne]

"The crowning moment came when B. spoke about communication. He said that the point of communicating is not to espouse one's views, it's not to speak truths & knowledge. It's about being understood."

Well, that's B's paradigm, and yours, and mine, but not necessarily everyone's. For some people it is about not just espousing a view, but of gaining adherents to it. And it's not to speak truth and knowledge, it is to convince you that what they are saying is truth and knowledge when in fact it is an agenda.

Take any politician you like, any political party, and ask yourself if they are really about being understood. Hey, if you really understood them, you'd probably reject the entire political process.

I don't know what Sam's problem is, but assuming everyone is about "being understood" can really get you into trouble. It's another form of shining idealism that often crashes and burns when it comes up against those who see people like you and me as just prey of some sort. Since he's a J, perhaps Sam finds value in hammering you to the point where you agree with his judgment. Not all Js are like that, but some are, when other quirks come into the picture.

 

[Linsejko]

^Sharp analysis.

However, you will gain more friends and respect and be considered a good, wise person by most of humanity if you adhere to the principle of trying to be understood. (e.g., politicians aren't a well liked lot...)

 

[Moocow]

In my experience, everything you described matches ENFPs I've known, right down to mistyping themselves as INT*s.

They can filibuster for hours and hours without making a single coherent statement, and I'm pretty sure it's just to make sure you're paying attention to them. I get a sense that they just talk to convince everyone they're smart.

Besides, I have 3 INTJs in my family and I'd describe them as the opposite of most of what you stated: narrow but intense set of interests, strong self guidance, they cut to the point when talking, and they're usually more likely to sit back and glare at you while you talk.

 

[intpz]

I hate people like that... Talking bullshit and when they need to make a stand for their point - they change the topic. If the situation is right, I sometimes even chase them, make them answer the questions, that pisses a lot of people off, however I haven't met many of these... So only pissed off a few for this 'perk' of theirs. :P

 

[psion]

^ Love doing that haha. It's great to watch them get flustered and then eventually just get pissed off and leave when all you are doing is asking them to stop avoiding the question.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Yup, you guys have good points. EditorOne, you're right that I have the paradigm that the goal of communication is to be understood. Now that I reflect on it, I can see that a lot of other people have a goal that's more aimed towards.. pride, entertainment, attention, to be heard, and to get their way. But there's all kinds of layers to it.

But nevertheless... I don't know. Having that influence over people requires that one is understood. Even if what one is conveying is duplicitous.

In my experience, everything you described matches ENFPs I've known, right down to mistyping themselves as INT*s.

Huh! I just realized that I know a xNFP who also insists that she's INTJ. I also know another ENFP who has a tendency towards righteously believing that she is correct and logical. (She's pretty weak to confirmation bias.) Do you have more to elaborate on this idea? It'd be a good thread!

 

[Moocow]

Yup, you guys have good points. EditorOne, you're right that I have the paradigm that the goal of communication is to be understood. Now that I reflect on it, I can see that a lot of other people have a goal that's more aimed towards.. pride, entertainment, attention, to be heard, and to get their way. But there's all kinds of layers to it.

But nevertheless... I don't know. Having that influence over people requires that one is understood. Even if what one is conveying is duplicitous.



Huh! I just realized that I know a xNFP who also insists that she's INTJ. I also know another ENFP who has a tendency towards righteously believing that she is correct and logical. (She's pretty weak to confirmation bias.) Do you have more to elaborate on this idea? It'd be a good thread!

It's the inferior Si / dominant Ne issue. Dominant Ne tells the ENFP they always must have something else, or something new and different. Inferior Si can not keep up and remind them of what and how they actually are. My brother put it pretty well... "they want to live the life they don't realize they're living."

Simply by virtue of having a dominant, behavioral imagination, they're doomed to constantly see the alternatives more vividly than the facts.

Furthermore, Fi is somewhat about determining your identity, as opposed to Fe which is more about determining your role... a subtle distinction. The identity is also stored in your worldview function, Si. With Ne-Fi they're constantly seeing and pursuing the alternatives to their own natural identity.

As for thinking she is always logical, that is probably because of inferior Si again. An ENFP recently told me that she uses all the functions, trying to convince me that she is perfectly logical while utterly blind to the huge logical contradictions of her statement.

 

[intpz]

Just a comment on the topic: that's true that we must make sure that we are understood, it also is true that it hurts your brain to form sentences like that... Especially people started to use one word: "like". (I was like having a dinner, like it was good, like cool, like... you know?) I especially hate that, that annoys me so much, and I just want to slap the bastard! Sure we don't speak English in my country, but there's still similarities to these words and situations that has been evolving together...
That must be related to "chameleon" thing we have... I hate using it though, it makes me feel like a pretender, maybe sometimes even hypocritical.
A situation just came to my mind... There's been a situation, when my English teacher was talking in my language, after I said a speech about some idiotic topic, telling me what's in her opinion wrong and good, and what I should change... I didn't even know the topic 2 minutes before saying the speech, and I said something about bad night, not not much sleep and no time to get ready for the speech, and after I said that in English - she looked at me and said: what? In my language, and she was so surprised... Then I just said - never mind, and my classmate explain to get what each of the words mean. (that guy likes to laugh from teachers, so he must've felt like in heaven...) Funny, when you think about it from my perspective - never been learning English at school nor TV...

 

[darude11]

INTP - Analytic -> Understanding and Interpretating (Ti and Ne) - "Check every single theory and every possibility, then eliminate the wrong ones."
INTJ - Tactic -> Forseeing and Organizing (Ni and Te) - "You will do XY, so I will do AB." (Haven't met yet any INTJ, so sorry if it is wrong)

Problemo?

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

INTP - Analytic -> Understanding and Interpretating (Ti and Ne) - "Check every single theory and every possibility, then eliminate the wrong ones."
INTJ - Tactic -> Forseeing and Organizing (Ni and Te) - "You will do XY, so I will do AB." (Haven't met yet any INTJ, so sorry if it is wrong)

Problemo?

Hah, I mean yes it is a problem. It makes INTJs better at games than me, especially Real-Time Strategy and to some extent FPS. And Settlers of Catan.

But I have a couple very close INTJ friends. My brother is one and we get along, and P. is a friend, coworker and classmate. (We were both the "tech support" guys at work. So I spent 40hours/week at work with him, 6hours/week doing class-related stuff, and we'd usually hang out one night on the weekends. Bromance!)

But it *could* still be an INTJ problem. My brother was always influenced by an INTP (me) and P. has just figured things out.

It's the inferior Si / dominant Ne issue. Dominant Ne tells the ENFP they always must have something else, or something new and different. Inferior Si can not keep up and remind them of what and how they actually are. My brother put it pretty well... "they want to live the life they don't realize they're living."

Simply by virtue of having a dominant, behavioral imagination, they're doomed to constantly see the alternatives more vividly than the facts.

Furthermore, Fi is somewhat about determining your identity, as opposed to Fe which is more about determining your role... a subtle distinction. The identity is also stored in your worldview function, Si. With Ne-Fi they're constantly seeing and pursuing the alternatives to their own natural identity.

As for thinking she is always logical, that is probably because of inferior Si again. An ENFP recently told me that she uses all the functions, trying to convince me that she is perfectly logical while utterly blind to the huge logical contradictions of her statement.

Well said! My ENFP former-friend liked the MBTI but after a certain point developed a disgust for it. (And a disgust for me, by extension? I agree that it's possible that I was taking it too far.) This ENFP also flits from passion to passion, always thinking about possibilities without really... thinking about how to get there. I think her identity does combine these things, but the details aren't there.

BUT, your words are dangerous to us-as-INTPs too. (Which really excites me!) We also have Ne > Si. I identified with your statements that I take on new identities before I've actually solidified them into reality. It's almost like I'm "trying it on for size".

And this scares me. Sometimes I feel like I'm "faking it", like I'm faking my identity as a programmer, boyfriend, intellectual.

Fortunately the distance between Ne -> Si isn't as great as ENFP's... still, we show a few symptoms.

 

[VroumVroum]

I’d say it’s a typical intj / intp conversation


Intj use intuition. Ni shows them what others cannot see.
But Ni is not Ti. How is an intj supposed to explain the logical path he used to get to his conclusion when he hasn’t followed any?
(He thinks) he already knows the answer and try to prove it to people unable to reach it.


He probably thought your way of putting everything into question was annoying and pointless. And you probably thought that he wasn’t seeing every possibility.


It will need maturity and understanding from both sides to be able to enjoy the effectiveness of intj’s though process. Personnaly, I’m fine with teasing them and proving them wrong .

 

[Moocow]

Well said! My ENFP former-friend liked the MBTI but after a certain point developed a disgust for it. (And a disgust for me, by extension? I agree that it's possible that I was taking it too far.) This ENFP also flits from passion to passion, always thinking about possibilities without really... thinking about how to get there. I think her identity does combine these things, but the details aren't there.

BUT, your words are dangerous to us-as-INTPs too. (Which really excites me!) We also have Ne > Si. I identified with your statements that I take on new identities before I've actually solidified them into reality. It's almost like I'm "trying it on for size".

And this scares me. Sometimes I feel like I'm "faking it", like I'm faking my identity as a programmer, boyfriend, intellectual.

Fortunately the distance between Ne -> Si isn't as great as ENFP's... still, we show a few symptoms.

Well I can't speak for all INTPs but I was lucky enough to commit to certain factors of my identity early on such as art and music. Intellectual pursuits came later. I find that there are certain things I can not lose interest in permanently, even if I do for a little while now and then.

The same principle does apply to us but to a much lower magnitude. I go through monthly, yearly, or 5-year phases of interests, while ENFPs change their mind and forget from day to day. Also, I find that over time my interests become more refined and pointed as I ditch the frivolous ones and keep the important ones. I'm not sure that ENFPs do that, simply because having inferior Si means it's practically painful to repeat anything.

Compared to INTJs, who actually will spend a lifetime mastering one thing, we do tend to look a bit noncommittal, maybe even "fake." Although, if you are afraid of appearing fake to others then don't be afraid to admit where your progress stands.

I think it's only fake if you're pretending to be a lot more involved, skilled, or knowledgeable than you actually are. This is another problem I have with ENFPs: they act completely enthusiastic about something, but as soon as the topic changes they don't care anymore and you're left to wonder if you've been lied to, or even mocked.

It also irritates me because I get the impression that instead of picking a modest, realistic kind of identity for themselves they want to be EVERYTHING. They'll tell you they're experts at A through Z but won't let you look harder and see for yourself. It is fake, shallow, and arrogant to read one page of every book and call yourself knowledgeable. Or, say, to boisterously preach wisdom and righteousness then act contrary to the deeper implications of your own words.



Sorry to come off as a wee bit scathing but it's taken me a lot of time and experiences to pick up on this, and otherwise naive INTPs seem to buy right into their self-idealized nonsense.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Sorry to come off as a wee bit scathing but it's taken me a lot of time and experiences to pick up on this, and otherwise naive INTPs seem to buy right into their self-idealized nonsense.

*nods* that's fair enough. Thanks for sharing. I think I agree. And now I want to grill some ENFPs more, try to get them to defend their knowledge. Beautiful day for a BBQ.