Achilles heel of this forum

[Black Rose]

I actually bought some cheese like two hours ago. Taste different from internet cheese but I am not sure because internet cheese hasn't really been in my mouth. And the cheese at the store doesn't really give kisses. I don't know the identity of cheese but really I really am that guy on that youtube channel. I would be disappointed to kiss a guy. Ams not gay.

 

[onesteptwostep]

I'm 99.99% sure that cheese is a lady.

See, this is why empiricism is dangerous..ly hot?

>_>

<_<

 

[Inquisitor]

You have no way of knowing that,this is not poetry,the level of feelings might not be that high.Anyway the point of art is to express feeling,which might be good for an intp,as he usually keep them in(there are many introvert artists),there are situations where into do like to express feelings and that is in art.Due it is true that INTP do not use much emotional type of thinking,which is not the same as feelings(it is type of illogical thinking,has no true or false),that will probable make it hard to make poetry.

Yes, art is useful for INTPs as a way to get in touch with their inferior. It's recommended as a tool of self-expression in analysis in fact. But not all art is the same. For example, writing non-fiction, although it is not "art" in the same sense as painting, is a fantastic fit, ie something all INTPs could probably do for extended periods of time every day. But, can they play music with feeling for 12-18 hours a day professionally? I would highly doubt it. Even if they do, burnout seems probable.

I am yet to find a person, especially a "perceiver" who made the choices regarding their future the way you propose. This is some next level self-help guru stuff.

Save for Architect and your comments on this board, which as far as I'm concerned may be very different from the reality of your situations, people don't discard their possibilities before they try their hands at something. Likewise, people don't actually study or focus too much on their internal psychology to guide their vocational development.

Yeah, and they should. Last I checked, roughly half the population is dissatisfied with their job. You gotta put your faith in something, whether it's your gut, feelings, ideas, beliefs, thoughts, memories, etc.

Suffice to say that I personally know examples to the contrary and many thinkers who became great artists either as their main source of income or supplementing their life in some meaningful way. Enough has been said in the past on the dubious nature of typology and all its inconsistencies that I'd say is enough for many critical and careful minds to avoid it, even more so when making serious life decisions.

Yup, thinking artists exist. If you don't base serious life decisions on typology, what do you base it on then? My impression is that most people don't give it much thought or fall into analysis paralysis or it's fairly random.

The basis on which you decide for others and partly on your behalf, what may be decisive factors to invest or shy away from certain areas of life, appears pretty ridiculous to me personally. It's the complete antithesis of curiosity and empiricism which I think are key elements to the whole archetypical "intp" approach that is supposedly their defining feature and disregarding that; a commonly shared feature among the promising and hopeful young individuals in general.

So you don't like my approach. That's fine. Basically, you're once again labeling me as lacking curiosity and not being empirical, and you're also subtly implying that I'm not an INTP and bashing the hopes and promises of "young individuals."

I really don't know why it's so hard for you and Tannhauser and RedBaron to just accept that I anchor my views in what type experts have written. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that. If you don't like my views b/c I'm a big believer in typology, then by extension, you don't like the field of typology either or you're very skeptical of it. I'm only going to have a problem with this if you attack me as you just did above. I don't do the same to you. Why are you doing it to me?

@ Inquisitor Redbaron and Tannhauser
Your rather intriguing conflict gave me pause and thought about something really important about having commonly agreed upon ideas. Personally, I would want each idea to be evaluated independently to come to a consensus. It’s most revealing that shit hit the fan when the even slightest inclination of a hierarchy of idea contributors(yes I’m using these words) was introduced. Anyways, I’m pretty sure this conflict has brought more interest to the forum and breathed more life into it. Messy, insane, … life. So uhhhhhhhhhh, thanks.

FWIW, I was just giving you my opinion of who I thought had written the most insightful posts for male INTPs. Redbaron and Tannhauser both have a personal beef with me for reasons of their own. The best ideas are not found on this forum but in actual books written by people who have a clue: Jung, Von Franz, Hillman, Van der Hoop, Myers, Quenk, Keirsey, etc. Architect read those books and probably others too, and ties it all into his own experiences as a musician and software engineer. It's useful information.

That said, in my opinion, a much better use of your time is reading what those established authors wrote as opposed to anything found here, although sometimes this place can be enjoyable, but the core membership is extremely small, especially when compared to INTJforum or PersonalityCafe.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

So you don't like my approach. That's fine. Basically, you're once again labeling me as lacking curiosity and not being empirical, and you're also subtly implying that I'm not an INTP and bashing the hopes and promises of "young individuals."

At this point it's not so much about my personal reaction to your activity as I'm not bothered by it in the least, as it is about providing a counterpoint and some opposition to your overall, arguably; at least slightly, wild and dominant claims.

If all who disagree with you kept silent, the newcomers and some of the existing population might find themselves suffocating, limited by what you, or any other polarised and unidirectional outspoken participant, are offering them.

So all I aimed to do now was keeping this mental landscape more healthy and diverse by adding something to the contrary or the middle.


I'm not saying you aren't a given type or you aren't empirical, but what you claim, say and act-out around here most certainly isn't supportive of open mindedness and creativity/empiricism, for what it's worth/matters.

I used typology only to share your, usually, typological language to provide an analogy you and other "typologists" could understand. I don't adhere to typology and I find it incorrect across most practical applications, even so, it's easier to use it expressing certain things or finding a common ground.

 

[Rualani]

@Inquisitor
I do need to read more material closer to the source. I think I got stopped by a few paywalls somewhere and scattered my thoughts to the wind. Thanks for the names. That's a good jumping point.

 

[Tannhauser]

Last I checked, roughly half the population is dissatisfied with their job.

Then it is a very inconvenient fact that naive empiricists use job statistics to validate the MBTI.

 

[Yellow]

Job satisfaction often has little to do with the theoretical field, and more to do with the conditions.

 

[Urakro]

At this point, I just groan now.

*groan*

 

[Grayman]

It is more accurate to say people are never satisfied period. It isn't a problem that exists with jobs themselves but with people in every day life. Friends, spouses, materials, and just life in general.

Yes, people are in bad spots but a lot of it isn't external but an issue within themselves.

a) not knowing what you want
b) not willing to make a change even though you complain about your situation
c) not willing to accept what is unavoidable and make the best of it

so yes psychology can play a role but no I don't think mbti is a good way to fix this. To much focus on mbti blinds people to the complexity of a human person.

@Inquisitor
A) is where MBTI might be helpful. It might help you in your search but it should not limit your search. It might just be a good starting point to begin it.

 

[Minuend]

See, this is why empiricism is dangerous..ly hot?

>_>

<_<

What if it proves Yellow's superior empiricism sense? (and is that still hot or is it then cold?) To me it seems the verdict's still out

If you don't base serious life decisions on typology, what do you base it on then? My impression is that most people don't give it much thought or fall into analysis paralysis or it's fairly random.

I really don't know why it's so hard for you and Tannhauser and RedBaron to just accept that I anchor my views in what type experts have written. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that. If you don't like my views b/c I'm a big believer in typology, then by extension, you don't like the field of typology either or you're very skeptical of it. I'm only going to have a problem with this if you attack me as you just did above. I don't do the same to you. Why are you doing it to me?

So you filled a void in your understanding with typology? That explains a lot.

Wrong or right, people are rather trying to tell you how filling that void with typology isn't noticeably more accurate than filling it with other understandings of reality. People fill that void with different things, some end up finding approaches that are more accurate and encompassing than others. And how to decide which one is the most accurate? How to know your typology is a more accurate understanding than what Tannhauser and Redbaron is using in that place? I'm leaving that open.

 

[Jennywocky]

As far as I can see, anything taken to an extreme as a sole determination of one's understanding of reality is likely to result in error. View as the "gemstone" metaphor; you can describe a facet of the gem accurately, so you're not technically wrong, but the gem can be looked at from different sides and if you only view it from one angle, your understanding is warped and incomplete.

Overintellectualizing life and/or trying to have everything determined by an abstract system with fixed points (so you can't shift paradigms or view it from other angles) is going to provide an incomplete solution at best and/or not address all aspects of one's experience of life. And the reality is that not even the most intellectual person makes every decision or engages life after doing a 100% detached analysis and letting action flow purely from conscious thought. Even the most thoughtful still are influenced by instincts, emotions, impulses, external circumstances, physical stimuli. In fact, since we're creatures who are not purely creatures of thought and reacting from script, where our intellect is not omniscient, where we live in a world where we can't always have the luxury to analyze a situation to death before making a decision, where emotional response and "feelings of balance/stability" and similar things factor into our pleasure sense, a purely intellectual assessment would end up being inadequate and/or unsatisfying on some level(s)/

.... i.e., driving all one's decisions from one's understanding of typological theory seems prone to failure or at least a less than optimal result. It's good to help one get a broad sense of what things one might like -- to provide tentative goals -- and to understand one's basic natural approach to situations, so that one can leverage one's strengths and minimize weakness. But there's a lot of flex and stretch and room for personal specifics in there. Just because something "makes the most sense" on some detached preconstructed level doesn't mean that an individual feels satisfied with making that decision; you have various channels of feedback occurring (of which "logical coherence" is one, and always based on a subset of understanding), and so you have to process various channels to see if something makes sense for that specific individual.

as a minor example, let's say that rationally you feel you should enjoy something or feel fine with it, but you were raised in a situation where that thing was attached somehow to negative conditioning -- your dad did it and it irritated the shit out of you and caused pain, for example, so now it's just not a viable pathway for you in terms of enjoyment anymore even with continual effort. Or certain windows of learning that you missed, so that developing a particular skill might have been something you'd have been easily good at, but nowadays it would require far more effort than warranted. Nothing lives in a vacuum, and not all experiences can be "backed out" 100%; they can have permanent impact on our future options.

 

[Architect]

OP is one of the main reasons I'm spending little time here anymore (the other being the tedious drugs/boredom threads). I just like to help and be helped, but after some years of spinning my yarns it has turned from 'relaying information' to trying to help people directly/change agent. Which again has proved my experience that you can't help people directly, they only decide to help themselves if and when (or at least that being a change agent (sorry for the corporate speak) isn't my MO). INTP's are particularly cantankerous in a way, I've heard many appreciative responses but have seen little followup from folks actually making a change (not entirely true).

But it's become a tedious example of sweeping water uphill, and yes the forum format is the cause. A Wiki is the solution, but INTPf is run by an absentee father. The Complex has a Wiki (I think - or at least it was discussed), but the good folks over there are more interested in socializing than MBTI, so it doesn't seem worth the effort. I investigated rebooting INTPf as INTP Complex was (from INTP Central), but the issue then was cost (I'm unwilling to divert funds from my tech efforts) and impact. I can help/be helped millions by my open source efforts, versus a few hundred here.

So, yeah ... some individuals have offered (and supposedly succeeded at, but not delivered) the 'collected blatherings of Archie', but as indicated I have yet to see anything. Really what we need is some individual to do a Ptah and reboot the forum with a Wiki; I'd be the ideal candidate but have decided not to for the reasons given above. So now I just check in very infrequently to see if anything interesting has come up.

 

[JimJambones]

to say "in my experience Ti types make good architects" is a sensation based statement and it may be perceived as a solid static fact, when believed. a sensor would say: "i can learn something reliable from a person who speaks in such an exact manner. they know what they are talking about". an intuitive statement would be: "Ti types always try to improve their understanding" - this statement is intuitive, because it references a process, a progress, a change, not a static state of being, it references the process of "understanding". to this the sensor might reply: "i have literally no idea what improving understanding means, it might mean so many different things, so mbti is useless pseudo science". so in this hypothetical example two ISTP disagree with each other, about the value of typology, because of the source from which it was delivered to them.

There is no clear distinction between a sensor and an intuitive with this statement. In fact, an INTP could fit the very description you have given for a sensor. Ti would question what improving understanding means because Ne IS looking for the many different things it means. Also, INTx are more likely to be scientific to begin with and would question the validity of MBTI, and is more likely to conclude that it is pseudo-scientific.

It's almost as if you're saying that one can only be an intuitive if one accepts MBTI to be true.

 

[Inquisitor]

@Everyone who responded to my posts:

I would say that for certain types (INTPs included) there is a greater probability of choosing an unsuitable career if they go about it exclusively based on their gut feelings or ideas about the career than if they first anchored themselves in typology.

Everyone who disagrees with this statement must find a way to explain why INTPs are highly represented in certain careers and highly under-represented in others. The data doesn't lie. No matter what your opinion might be about the field, CEOs and managers keep using the MBTI year after year. MBTI has been found by leading Big 5 psychologists to correlate well with 4 out of 5 dimensions on the Big 5.

I don't know why there seems to be so much opposition to typology on a forum called the "INTP forum." People come here looking for answers based on their MBTI test result. At a certain point, if you don't believe in the validity of typology, perhaps you ought to question why you are even here at all?

 

[JimJambones]

@Everyone who responded to my posts:

I would say that for certain types (INTPs included) there is a greater probability of choosing an unsuitable career if they go about it exclusively based on their gut feelings or ideas about the career than if they first anchored themselves in typology.

Everyone who disagrees with this statement must find a way to explain why INTPs are highly represented in certain careers and highly under-represented in others. The data doesn't lie. No matter what your opinion might be about the field, CEOs and managers keep using the MBTI year after year. MBTI has been found by leading Big 5 psychologists to correlate well with 4 out of 5 dimensions on the Big 5.

I don't know why there seems to be so much opposition to typology on a forum called the "INTP forum." People come here looking for answers based on their MBTI test result. At a certain point, if you don't believe in the validity of typology, perhaps you ought to question why you are even here at all?

Well, that kind of would be expected behavior on an INTP forum, filled with INTPs. I actually think it's kind of comical.

 

[Tannhauser]

Everyone who disagrees with this statement must find a way to explain why INTPs are highly represented in certain careers and highly under-represented in others.

It's the other way around: considering the fact that most of these INTPs chose their work without knowing they were INTPs, one must find a way to explain why all the MBTI theory matters at all.

I have mentioned this before, but all this superficial data does not corroborate any statement of the MBTI theory. It is like saying: "most hair dressers are female, therefore if you are male and you want to be a hair dresser, you are making a mistake". It is either a logical fallacy, or an attempt at misusing data (new heuristic: never trust someone who uses the phrase "the data doesn't lie").

I don't know why there seems to be so much opposition to typology on a forum called the "INTP forum." People come here looking for answers based on their MBTI test result. At a certain point, if you don't believe in the validity of typology, perhaps you ought to question why you are even here at all?

The usual Inquisitor nonsense.. "either worship Jung as a god or get out of the forum"

 

[Haim]

@Everyone who responded to my posts:

I would say that for certain types (INTPs included) there is a greater probability of choosing an unsuitable career if they go about it exclusively based on their gut feelings or ideas about the career than if they first anchored themselves in typology.

Everyone who disagrees with this statement must find a way to explain why INTPs are highly represented in certain careers and highly under-represented in others. The data doesn't lie. No matter what your opinion might be about the field, CEOs and managers keep using the MBTI year after year. MBTI has been found by leading Big 5 psychologists to correlate well with 4 out of 5 dimensions on the Big 5.

I don't know why there seems to be so much opposition to typology on a forum called the "INTP forum." People come here looking for answers based on their MBTI test result. At a certain point, if you don't believe in the validity of typology, perhaps you ought to question why you are even here at all?

Do I really need repeat what I already told you?
There are many,many things that have influence on the ratio that doesn't have connection to the INTP skill or will/enjoyment for that job.
The ratio isn't static,it change,it is no sure indication of fitting,likely but not necessarily.(an example I stated is the ratio of male to female teachers ratio)

 

[Urakro]

I would say that for certain types (INTPs included) there is a greater probability of choosing an unsuitable career if they go about it exclusively based on their gut feelings or ideas about the career than if they first anchored themselves in typology.

Everyone who disagrees with this statement must find a way to explain why INTPs are highly represented in certain careers and highly under-represented in others. The data doesn't lie. No matter what your opinion might be about the field, CEOs and managers keep using the MBTI year after year. MBTI has been found by leading Big 5 psychologists to correlate well with 4 out of 5 dimensions on the Big 5.

For sure, personality plays a big role in job satisfaction. I'd say that there can be other factors that plays into this besides the job description though. For instance, I think I've seen INTP-type people relatively satisfied as a customer care agent, with the big factor of working with colleagues that they feel connected with. I guess it also depends on how high of standards a person puts on their job.

I've typed jobs in tier categories based on the qualifications. The lower tier has the least requirements (high-school diploma only) and comprises of a major chunk of available jobs. It would stand to reason that a good chunk of people are in those types of jobs, and there is a tendency for those types of jobs to have undesirable returns (ie, low pay as a strong example). That guess seems more fitting as to why 50% of people are unsatisfied with their job, rather than their MBTI type not aligning with it.

Engineering, scientists and the like are not only geared for INTP-type people (some INTP's even hate math!). Other types of people are doing well in those fields as well.

But in my views, it's jumping the gun to even assume only thinkers are suited for these smart jobs, when it's so hard to even distinguish between feeling type and thinking type. Thinkers still undoubtedly feel-judge based on the description, and there are feelers who enjoy intellectual pursuits. MBTI is too much of a mess, and can't be concretely stamped down enough to start getting serious about life-long decisions. Another example is that you don't want to spend your life savings on getting your son into the major sport-leagues, only because you've subjectively typed him as ISTP.

 

[JimJambones]

^^^ But I kept having him typed by a certified practitioner until one decided on a type that agreed with me!

 

[Inquisitor]

It's the other way around: considering the fact that most of these INTPs chose their work without knowing they were INTPs, one must find a way to explain why all the MBTI theory matters at all.

I have mentioned this before, but all this superficial data does not corroborate any statement of the MBTI theory. It is like saying: "most hair dressers are female, therefore if you are male and you want to be a hair dresser, you are making a mistake". It is either a logical fallacy, or an attempt at misusing data (new heuristic: never trust someone who uses the phrase "the data doesn't lie").


The usual Inquisitor nonsense.. "either worship Jung as a god or get out of the forum"

You think you've hit on something really significant and are being really clever, but really you're just being foolish because you don't understand how the test works or how it compares to other psychometric instruments. You don't even know what "statements" the MBTI theory makes b/c you haven't bothered to read the manual or Gifts Differing. The MBTI never says you are "making a mistake" by choosing an occupation that is highly under-represented by your type. I said that. Their policy is never to recommend occupations exclusively based on type b/c that can lead to discrimination and lawsuits.

You of all people should know that there are no certainties in life, only probabilities. Based on the latter, if you're an INTP, there is a low probability that you would enjoy a career as a nurse or occupational therapist for example. You can do these things, and it's almost a certainty there are INTPs in those occupations, but the probability is low that you will find those careers rewarding and satisfying despite the pay, job security, and other benefits they entail.

This is not really a falsifiable hypothesis in the sense of basic science research, but probability is better than nothing at all, which is what you seem to espouse. Off the top of my head, one way to test this hypothesis would be a longitudinal study that examined career changes among INTPs and then measuring job satisfaction before and after the change. As others have pointed out, job satisfaction is related to many other things besides type, but with a large enough sample, it may be possible to control for those other factors. So it's not really an unfalsifiable hypothesis as you say. I just came up with one of many ways you could go about tackling this question.

If you add in all the non-scientific stuff about type dynamics (which in my opinion is far more useful for self-understanding), then the case for the data we do have is even stronger. If you think about what Ti does, then it's just common sense that fields like math and CS could be very good fits, and the data bears this out.

Having said all of this, every time someone comes on here looking for advice, I'm not going to rehash all of the above, I'm just going to dish out an answer.

You're in the grip Tannhauser, go take a walk in the forest...

That guess seems more fitting as to why 50% of people are unsatisfied with their job, rather than their MBTI type not aligning with it.

I brought up the 50% stat just to indicate that most people are dissatisfied with their jobs. I don't want to be a part of that statistic, and choosing the right career for me helps reduce the risk. One way to do that is using the MBTI.

 

[Grayman]

The paranoia of systemic thought programming and mind control is currently thicker than usual.

The moment MBTI crosses the threshold from theory into real application it becomes the enemy of critical thinking.

*********
I personally don't mind being handed a tool and using the tool where applicable but don't tell me that I have use a screw driver to pry with. Just because it might work does make it the best or only option available to me.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

The MBTI never says you are "making a mistake" by choosing an occupation that is highly under-represented by your type. I said that.

Yes, I believe that's his primary complaint.

Not necessarily that MBTI is a flawed system. But rather that you use a flawed system to tell people what they should and shouldn't do.

It may not be your intention, but I think the perception is that you cling to broken logic while limiting others' options.

 

[Inquisitor]

^^The perception is not valid b/c most of the people on here are poorly informed. You're giving me too much credit. I just give my opinions. Other people are free to ignore them and many do. I'm no one's daddy. I can't "limit others' options."

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

The perception is entirely valid. If people see you to be someone that tells others that what they're doing is wrong because of your zealous devotion to MBTI then that's a perfectly valid perception.

Sure, they might not see your intention or reasoning behind it, which might make their opinions of you more or less misguided. But you certainly cannot say that perception of you is invalid.

I haven't given you any credit. I'm not saying you can limit others' options and lifestyles. I'm saying you appear to be trying to by using shit logic to state things as fact (ie. "you shouldn't do X thing, because you can't be good at it because I read a book."). I'm not saying that this is what you are saying. Just that this is the way you seem to say a lot of things.

 

[Grayman]

^^The perception is not valid b/c most of the people on here are poorly informed. You're giving me too much credit. I just give my opinions. Other people are free to ignore them and many do. I'm no one's daddy. I can't "limit others' options."

some just disagree but others... I call it paranoia. It is the fear that you are trying to alter their thoughts and perceptions without recognizing that is a unrealistic fear. Only they get to choose what they think and do.

 

[Inquisitor]

The perception is entirely valid. If people see you to be someone that tells others that what they're doing is wrong because of your zealous devotion to MBTI then that's a perfectly valid perception.

Sure, they might not see your intention or reasoning behind it, which might make their opinions of you more or less misguided. But you certainly cannot say that perception of you is invalid.

I haven't given you any credit. I'm not saying you can limit others' options and lifestyles. I'm saying you appear to be trying to by using shit logic to state things as fact (ie. "you shouldn't do X thing, because you can't be good at it because I read a book."). I'm not saying that this is what you are saying. Just that this is the way you seem to say a lot of things.

The perception is not valid. It's other people's problem, not mine. I never used the word "can't", only "shouldn't." Please provide evidence for the underlined part. As far as I can tell, what you're saying is nonsense.

 

[Inquisitor]

some just disagree but others... I call it paranoia. It is the fear that you are trying to alter their thoughts and perceptions without recognizing that is a unrealistic fear. Only they get to choose what they think and do.

Exactly. Paranoia is an emotion and leads to invalid perceptions. Philosophically speaking, all perceptions are intrinsically valid, but some are much closer to reality than others. The latter are what I term "invalid." I don't control other people's thoughts, emotions, or actions. I don't see what all the fuss is about. I wish people would just stop attacking me and labelling me simply b/c I stick to authority.

Not necessarily that MBTI is a flawed system. But rather that you use a flawed system to tell people what they should and shouldn't do.

This is what I call "shit logic." You just said MBTI is "not necessarily a flawed system", and then added that I'm using a "flawed system to tell people what they should and shouldn't do." I stick to what the MBTI and type dynamics authors have written. Either you believe those are flawed, or you don't. Which is it?

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

I'm not stating anything as fucking fact, man. The perception. The impression. The implication of a lot of your posts comes off that way. I'm not trying to state any definitive truths about you. I'm telling you that this is the way I see you and, based off of most other forumers' reactions to you, this is the way a lot of other people around here see you.

Jesus fuck, man, I was trying to be on your side.

Also perception cannot be invalid. The way someone sees something is the way someone sees something. Their conclusions may be wrong. But perception itself is never invalid.

Edit: Oh, I definitely believe it's flawed. I was saying that the primary complaint, and main argument of this thread, isn't that MBTI is dumb (even though it is). But rather I was saying that the source of conflict here seems to be that others are perceiving you to use MBTI (which is probably a shit system) to state things as fact.

Perhaps the way I formatted that post was incorrect. The bit you've quoted I intended to be related to what Tannhauser's (and others') "primary complaint" is.

I'm not trying to advance an opinion or argument here.

 

[Grayman]

Perceptions are always 'wrong' but some are more dysfunctional than others. Why does everyone go on the fritz instead of letting belief systems be belief systems.

Inquisitor sees things as true and false and not as a sliding rule of accuracy like the rest of us. I don't think its something the mob should get upset over but I do think Inquisitor would be better off thinking like me.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

^^The perception is not valid b/c most of the people on here are poorly informed. You're giving me too much credit. I just give my opinions. Other people are free to ignore them and many do. I'm no one's daddy. I can't "limit others' options."

A person keeps posting their opinions and people keep giving them negative feedback. Then that person thinks it's somehow others fault for producing negative feedback.

If you don't understand how deluded this reaction is then there's really no point explaining the whole situation.

 

[Grayman]

A person keeps posting their opinions and people keep giving them negative feedback. Then that person thinks it's somehow others fault for producing negative feedback.

If you don't understand how deluded this reaction is then there's really no point explaining the whole situation.

lol. Everyone is posting their opinions and inquisitor gives negative feedback. Then they all think its his fault.

 

[Tannhauser]

You of all people should know that there are no certainties in life, only probabilities. Based on the latter, if you're an INTP, there is a low probability that you would enjoy a career as a nurse or occupational therapist for example. You can do these things, and it's almost a certainty there are INTPs in those occupations, but the probability is low that you will find those careers rewarding and satisfying despite the pay, job security, and other benefits they entail.

That it is interesting, because it is this uncertainty that is the reason why I don't think it does any good to try to fit people into boxes and pretty patterns. Uncertainty, that is – not randomness. Randomness, as it pertains to probability, is when you spin a roulette wheel and the outcome is random but you know the probabilities. Uncertainty is when you are blind to the future, don't know any probabilities, and when only trial and error will reveal the best course of action. Sure, you can gather large-scale statistics – but only after the fact, after people have chosen their course of action. As an individual you know nothing about the probability of becoming a good mathematician, or a successful entrepreneur, or a CEO, or a good musician.

If you add in all the non-scientific stuff about type dynamics (which in my opinion is far more useful for self-understanding), then the case for the data we do have is even stronger. If you think about what Ti does, then it's just common sense that fields like math and CS could be very good fits, and the data bears this out.

I agree it is a useful tool for self-understanding. I disagree with the use of superficial stats and non-falsifiable theories to deduce statements about individuals.

You're in the grip Tannhauser, go take a walk in the forest...

I am zen as fuck.

 

[Black Rose]

@Iquisitor and Tannhauser

If MBTI practitioners actually understand Jungian functions and they have had experience with understanding the actual type a person is one on one, then the statistics are accurate to the degree that this is true.

This is my new understanding of functions:

http://www.intpforum.com/showpost.php?p=508041&postcount=13

If I am correct then I am INFJ and looking at how Architect and you two behave it is clear to me that regardless of type all three personalities rub me some what wrongly. Architect isn't very fun and is too serious and the arguments between Inquisitor and Tannhauser just seem to be about how to determine what is true based on their introverted sensation being in conflict. INTP debates are the most callus debates because they begin with different facts and those facts build structures that don't match each other. Both INTP's must begin at the same starting point or it will be a disaster.

I do think that Jungian functions are neurological and that because they would be neurological that they can become tired with certain activities. Inquisitor thinks music make INTP's tired and that so do activities involving socialization i.e. empathy because of Fe being inferior. He thinks he is INTP and has read about all types and what they focus on because of what makes them tired and what makes them very efficient at other tasks. I think that my sister is ESFP and I think this is why she can draw better than me because my Se is inferior thus I see poorly and cannot draw what I do not see. This explains why she is better because neurologically ESFP's focus on their most efficient function that would lead to drawing. Fe would lead to music because music balances out the emotions and helping people as in being a therapist balances out psychological damage. Ti would be more interested in designing stuff.

The reason why a person prefers to do certain activities is because of the neurological efficiency of each types functions. Perhaps Inquisitor could provide a source on them but again MBTI as a predictive model is not really based only opinion but on the experience of practitioners accuracy at detecting the a type which would make them indirectly aware of neurological efficiency. If Inquisitor is INTP then he has experienced being more efficient at Ti stuff than Fe stuff where too much Fe has drained him and he has seen this draining or energizing effect in other people who do certain activities.

 

[Grayman]

.... that depends on the level of uncertainty. 99.9 certainty and 0.1% uncertainty is certain for all practical purposes.

75% certainty is adequate enough to consider utilizing on a regular basis with exceptions being made based on other relevant variables.

50% is not the best but it can be a variable to consider if other variables do not yield better results

25% certainty well that might not even be worth the time to think about but maybe after I look at all these other things first....

0.1% certainty WTF get out!



***************

Standards are set by Grayman's Certainty standards industry. Copyright 19088 BC
Permission must be gained prior to implementation of these standards our you could be penalized for intellectual theft punishable by lobotomy and life as a nun.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

lol. Everyone is posting their opinions and inquisitor gives negative feedback. Then they all think its his fault.

Would you complain to the tribe that cast you out, or would you restart your life elsewhere?

Above question is unrelated to Inquisitor and purely hypothetical.

You seem to be enjoying yourself today Grayman, not sure if situational absurdity proves too much or some kind of substance makes things exceptionally exhilarating.

In any case, I'm glad to be of service if I could brighten your mood.

 

[Grayman]

So, yeah ... some individuals have offered (and supposedly succeeded at, but not delivered) the 'collected blatherings of Archie', but as indicated I have yet to see anything. Really what we need is some individual to do a Ptah and reboot the forum with a Wiki; I'd be the ideal candidate but have decided not to for the reasons given above. So now I just check in very infrequently to see if anything interesting has come up.

He is some material for encouraging INTP's to put down the math book and pick up some musical instruments.

If he can do it so can you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weh4Omts-EE

 

[Grayman]

Would you complain to the tribe that cast you out, or would you restart your life elsewhere?

I always work in methods that are functional within various social structures and systems. I have never been cast out but neither have I been fully accepted.

I believe that both the person and the social structure must change to varying degrees to accommodate each other in ways that don't compromise the core essence of who they are.

***********************

Would I complain? I would not yell at a tree to move out of my way. Such a thing would be absurd. I can go around it or I can cut it down.
It is equally absurd to expect someone who is genuinely who they are to suddenly change to meet the tribes expectations without compromise.

So how do you stay in the tribe when they want you out? ("cut down the tree")

Get the chiefs daughter pregnant; seduce her. Make yourself something that they view as necessary to keep around no matter how intolerable you are.

So now you are wondering who the cheifs daughter is on the INTPf.... sorry thats my failsafe it's all behind closed doors, in the dark, like a thief in the night... ... I just hope I don't back the wrong horse...

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

It is equally absurd to expect someone who is genuinely who they are to suddenly change to meet the tribes expectations without compromise.

There could be no such expectation. All that remains is a ritual hunt and various forms of expressing animosity or there's an option a niche will open and the tribe will evolve to accomodate both. Auto-immune inflammatory response is in order.

 

[Intolerable]

Wikis are definitely not forums. That is for sure.

Though it takes a good chunk of arrogance to sway in and out of a forum in the hopes that someone has officially submitted to your wisdom on a particular subject.

Believe it or not we don't all come here for that little game of dominance. I came here because I figured like-minded individuals would exist. Enough so to have a good dose of conversation which we typically lack in.

Anything I post here can be buried under a pile of shit for all I care. It isn't there for that purpose as I may have a change of mind down the road. If something truly seems so important that the world must absolutely know about it, a book or at least a new wiki page seems the right direction to go in.

 

[Grayman]

seeking out like minded individuals is the root of ignorance. I very much dislike discussion with the purpose to reaffirm your beliefs. I want to test them...see if they break under stress.

 

[Intolerable]

Maybe I didn't word that the best way.

When I said like-minded individuals I meant people who don't just tow the popular opinion of the times.

Sometimes it is helpful for two critical thinkers to discuss things openly and honestly. Actually that would be the most rare form of discussion found on the net.

 

[Grayman]

I have thought some on this. I think architect has a method of living and functioning that is better than the youth that enter here. I don't think it arrogant for him to want to share his wisdom. The key issue with this is that INTP and youth don't want someone else's answer to their problems. They want to find their own way. I think this is better in the long run because people are different and will need different answers but on the short term it leaves them lost and confused on how to deal with their youthful issues.

@Architect.. can a wiki help them find their own answers and if so how?

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

can a wiki help them find their own answers and if so how?

Perhaps.

If problems were compiled by subject and then branched out into possible specifics and then it kind of followed as a pseudo-"choose your own adventure" type deal.


For instance, taking a common problem I see here from time to time:
A user posts "oh, I like this person etc etc."
Usually they fill their post with details and then users respond with advice based on those details. However, after several similar threads, the advice begins to be repeated quite often.

So the way that could work on the INTPf Advice Wiki (not sure how to make the little trademark logo, but it would go here) is as follows:
User goes to the wiki selects "Relationship Advice" then under that heading finds "Unrequited love" or "Communication" or something (this is just spitballing, the specific organization itself can come later). Then they'd look for "I like a girl/boy/fish but they don't know."

And then after that we can start to fill in a list of details, either in a choose-your-own-adventure style of links where you click a detail that applies which brings you to a list of further details that you can click and so on until you reach all the advice the forum has come up with for that problem. (ie. "I like a girl">"She's my best friend/a very good friend">"she has a boyfriend and it hurts to be around the two of them">"their relationship appears to be a good one not likely to end soon">*lots of advice from forumers telling the user to probably avoid them and/or get over those feelings quickly.
OR:
It could be a checklist thing where the user selects all the details of their problems and then submits them and advice is retrieved based on the options selected. (ie. "I like a girl">"she's a somewhat good friend/friendly acquaintance"AND"she doesn't seem to have a boyfriend"AND"she may be interested in someone else and/or me but I can't tell">advice)

Something roughly along those lines, maybe.

And then, if the user tries that and doesn't find satisfactory advice for their situation, they can make a thread about it at which point further advice can be given and then added in to the wiki along with any conditions of the situation that the wiki didn't already account for.


That's how I would do something like this, at least. It seems like it'd be a lot of work, though.

 

[crippli]

I love Architects way of aiming for immortality, and actually does what is thought. Can I follow the advice's? Probably not. Too many 'bad' habits. I feel I fall in the description that is made. But what is written do lurk and churn in the back of my head.

Achilles heel? Not sure those are accurate words to describe the forum. This forum IMO is stable due to design.

 

[Tannhauser]

I have thought some on this. I think architect has a method of living and functioning that is better than the youth that enter here. I don't think it arrogant for him to want to share his wisdom. The key issue with this is that INTP and youth don't want someone else's answer to their problems. They want to find their own way. I think this is better in the long run because people are different and will need different answers but on the short term it leaves them lost and confused on how to deal with their youthful issues.

@Architect.. can a wiki help them find their own answers and if so how?

The wisdom of the ancients: do computer science.

Sorry, just had to..

 

[Rualani]

I decide to join the ranting, raving, and lunacy. I felt left out :<

Spoiler

Why is the default conclusion I'm seeing that consensus must be reached by selecting the ideas of specific people consistently? Surely the discussion goes beyond that.

Personally, this was only a passing curiosity to me. A niggling in the brain of an unseen possibility. Just to add something, I would say it would be interesting to have a vote on the TOP 10 ideas on a specific topic. Top 10 ideas for proper digestion, or something ridiculous like that. It could be open to change. A go-to reference that modifies itself based on polling. Bwahahaha. I, also, can't stress enough THAT NO SUGGESTIONS WERE MADE to change what was already happening. A additional go-to reference section wouldn't change all the other sections. Maybe the forum would just ignore it and make the creators effort a waste. Most innovations fail anyways! Consensus as innovation, ahahaha I've totally lost it.

Anyways I just wanted to have fun with the idea, and now it's in the oubliette on my first thread attempt. I blame my inflammatory thread title. It did it's job too well. I, also, regret framing it as a criticism of the forum. Maybe the title should have been, "Does this forum need a go-to reference for INTP life advice." Even if met with a resounding, "Fuck you kindly, sir," it would have got to the point.

TL:R No intention at all from the OP for the wisdom of the ancients to be a thing. Well, then here's another question for the audience. Why is it there, then?

 

[Inquisitor]

The wisdom of the ancients: do computer science.

Sorry, just had to..

Have you even tried computer science? Wasn't it you who said that nothing beats trial-and-error? How could you possibly know whether or not it's valid advice by your own metric?

It's a laughable comment too coming from a self-proclaimed math geek. Theoretical computer Science is math. Alan Turing was a mathematician. Math gave birth to CS and continues to have a profound influence. Hell, my math professor now is doing work in quantum computing. Why do you think you wouldn't like it? You said you were applying to quantitative finance jobs. CS is in extremely high demand in that particular field....

Are you afraid that you're going to find out you're actually a "typical" INTP, and that Architect isn't wrong in endorsing this field for INTPs? Does that really pose an existential threat to your worldview? I don't get the extreme aversion from you to giving people career recommendations based on personality type. Best case, they make a wiser choice than they would have, and are better off for it. Worst case, they find out it's something they didn't like and go back to the drawing board. It's no different than if they hadn't taken the test. They still would have had to make a choice. All the other factors like upbringing, interest, values, etc. still apply. They don't just disappear all of a sudden simply b/c someone gets an "INTP" test result. People aren't mindless drones.

I think I've figured you out Tannhauser: You have an irrational fear of personality tests. You gotta give people more credit. Their lives are not going to be ruined by four little letters. It's just a tool of self-exploration. You can relax.

TL:R No intention at all from the OP for the wisdom of the ancients to be a thing. Well, then here's another question for the audience. Why is it there, then?

OP, I think the thread topic was valid. It is somewhat inconvenient to search through past threads, b/c you have to wade through a lot of roughage in the process. I did it for a while, but eventually just realized books are better. Sometimes I still get useful information from here when I do searches on particular topics though...

The type dynamics stuff as conceived by Jung is not scientific, but I think it holds greater utility in terms of understanding the nature of the psyche and the origins of suffering (the inferior function). It's everyone's big problem. The way it manifests is different for all 8 types. As far as the "wisdom of the ancients" goes, that's about as good as it gets for psychological types. More modern interpretations include the MBTI.

As far as a vote goes of the top 10 ideas for INTPs, keep in mind most people here are in their twenties and younger. There are some exceptions. If you want to get advice on serious life issues (like career) from a bunch of kids, that's fine. Not my style personally, as other people here know. I'd rather listen to people who have actually lived and experienced life and aren't just out of school.

That said, there may be a few domain experts on here that have interesting ideas related to INTPs. Relationship issues though can be useful to talk through with people here. I've seen that happen often enough.

 

[Haim]

Have you even tried computer science? Wasn't it you who said that nothing beats trial-and-error? How could you possibly know whether or not it's valid advice by your own metric?

It's a laughable comment too coming from a self-proclaimed math geek. Theoretical computer Science is math. Alan Turing was a mathematician. Math gave birth to CS and continues to have a profound influence. Hell, my math professor now is doing work in quantum computing. Why do you think you wouldn't like it? You said you were applying to quantitative finance jobs. CS is in extremely high demand in that particular field....

Are you afraid that you're going to find out you're actually a "typical" INTP, and that Architect isn't wrong in endorsing this field for INTPs? Does that really pose an existential threat to your worldview? I don't get the extreme aversion from you to giving people career recommendations based on personality type. Best case, they make a wiser choice than they would have, and are better off for it. Worst case, they find out it's something they didn't like and go back to the drawing board. It's no different than if they hadn't taken the test. They still would have had to make a choice. All the other factors like upbringing, interest, values, etc. still apply. They don't just disappear all of a sudden simply b/c someone gets an "INTP" test result. People aren't mindless drones.

I think I've figured you out Tannhauser: You have an irrational fear of personality tests. You gotta give people more credit. Their lives are not going to be ruined by four little letters. It's just a tool of self-exploration. You can relax.



OP, I think the thread topic was valid. It is somewhat inconvenient to search through past threads, b/c you have to wade through a lot of roughage in the process. I did it for a while, but eventually just realized books are better. Sometimes I still get useful information from here when I do searches on particular topics though...

The type dynamics stuff as conceived by Jung is not scientific, but I think it holds greater utility in terms of understanding the nature of the psyche and the origins of suffering (the inferior function). It's everyone's big problem. The way it manifests is different for all 8 types. As far as the "wisdom of the ancients" goes, that's about as good as it gets for psychological types. More modern interpretations include the MBTI.

As far as a vote goes of the top 10 ideas for INTPs, keep in mind most people here are in their twenties and younger. There are some exceptions. If you want to get advice on serious life issues (like career) from a bunch of kids, that's fine. Not my style personally, as other people here know. I'd rather listen to people who have actually lived and experienced life and aren't just out of school.

That said, there may be a few domain experts on here that have interesting ideas related to INTPs. Relationship issues though can be useful to talk through with people here. I've seen that happen often enough.

First of all,I think recommending CS is just a way or should be a just a way to suggesting programming which is not the same as CS.
Second,CS is not math,while their is a correlation between a mind fitted for math and CS,it is not necessary to have one.Also using math does not make you a Mathematician,math is just another tool,engineer,physician are just using math as a tool,the same in CS.That that historically CS was developed for Mathematical purpose,does not make it math.It created a wrong impression in formal education institutes,that have no clue on CS,that math is a must have skill in order to become a programmer,so they filter candidates based on math skill instead of CS skill or programming skill,which is like hiring a soccer player only based on his running skill,very stupid.
You keep on and on thinking that correlation makes true,it does not,correlation is only having some shared parts,it is better to refer to the thing itself than referring to other thing that just happen to have correlation.

 

[Inquisitor]

First of all,I think recommending CS is just a way or should be a just a way to suggesting programming which is not the same as CS.
Second,CS is not math,while their is a correlation between a mind fitted for math and CS,it is not necessary to have one.Also using math does not make you a Mathematician,math is just another tool,engineer,physician are just using math as a tool,the same in CS.That that historically CS was developed for Mathematical purpose,does not make it math.It created a wrong impression in formal education institutes,that have no clue on CS,that math is a must have skill in order to become a programmer,so they filter candidates based on math skill instead of CS skill or programming skill,which is like hiring a soccer player only based on his running skill,very stupid.
You keep on and on thinking that correlation makes true,it does not,correlation is only having some shared parts,it is better to refer to the thing itself than referring to other thing that just happen to have correlation.

Calm down Haim. You're talking to someone who is currently taking CS and has a background in economics. I think I know the difference between math and CS. You know I'm in my 30s right? I only made the comparison b/c it seemed silly for him to imply that CS was a bad suggestion for INTPs given the fact that he was a fan of math. Makes no sense. They have lots of similarities. Both math and CS are fields in which INTPs are highly represented statistically.

 

[Grayman]

Programming is logical. It is thinking of cause and effect and doing so many steps ahead. It is knowing all the functions of the chess pieces and how the game must turn out from the beginning to the end.


Game programming might be different but I have never used more actual math than f++; mynumber = mynumber + 1;

As far as I know most INTP spend every day of their life thinking in this logical format stuck in their heads considering possibilities and tying logic to it all. If you spend every day of your life doing this then it is reasonable to say that you are going to be skilled at programming.