Acausality of Qualia

[Black Rose]

If pain is in the brain then why do I feel the sensation within the spacial coordinates of my foot? There is a distance between the map and the territory and one of them will not encompass the fullness of the other.

If we take it that mass and energy occupy space and that by doing so creates autonomy of the phenomenal effect then by any arrangement of mass and energy the diversity of qualia's are set at an arbitrary extension boundary of an entity. Wherein the bounded necessity of time derived in the totality of past and future being reversible, codify a presence in "The Eternal Now" as an awareness of the duration of experience just as integral as extension in space is to the binding problem. There is no reason to distinguish between experience and the experiencer but for the fact that not all phenomenal is in mutuality of codependent observers. There is distinction between what is considered personal self and other.

So is it that when quanta of qualia are united they form parochial unites not attached to local mass and energy but encompassing larger non local equivocation intermediaries as self. The sum total of effects are not synchronized under subluminal coordination. The initial state condition is instantaneous throughout the whole system so perception corporealized, it is conditioned acausality.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Just gimme some alone time with my thesaurus plz...

 

[TheScornedReflex]

*Puts on blindfold, picks up stick and takes a deep breath*

The brain is the processor of the body, so if pain is in the foot, the brain will collect that information and send it to other parts of the brain. These parts interpret the signals sent originally from the nerves, thus revealing your foot is the thing that is sore...

I really have no idea what I am talking about.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Or, to say it in a way that's not needlessly complicated, the brain knows where the foot is. It's the damaged area telling the brain "ouch, yo."

 

[Black Rose]

Or, to say it in a way that's not needlessly complicated, the brain knows where the foot is. It's the damaged area telling the brain "ouch, yo."

Then if it knows does that mean I can use telepathy to know what someone else is feeling? Same problem with the foot and the resonating consequences.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Then if it knows does that mean I can use telepathy to know what someone else is feeling? Same problem with the foot and the resonating consequences.

No. You have no neurons connecting you to other people. You do with your foot.

 

[Black Rose]

No. You have no neurons connecting you to other people. You do with your foot.

How do you feel an arm that is not there? No neurons connecting to the missing limb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb

 

[TheScornedReflex]

From the same article.

Spoiler

By the late 1980s, Ronald Melzack had recognized that the peripheral neuroma account could not be correct. In his 1989 paper, "Phantom Limbs, The Self And The Brain"[8] Melzack proposed the theory of the "neuromatrix." According to Melzack the experience of the body is created by a wide network of interconnecting neural structures. In 1991, Tim Pons and colleagues at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) showed that the primary somatosensory cortex undergoes substantial reorganization after the loss of sensory input.[9] Hearing about these results, Vilayanur S. Ramachandran theorized that phantom limb sensations could be due to this reorganization in the somatosensory cortex, which is located in the postcentral gyrus, and which receives input from the limbs and body.[3][6] Ramachandran and colleagues illustrated this theory by showing that stroking different parts of the face led to perceptions of being touched on different parts of the missing limb.[10]
Ramachandran argued that the perception of being touched in different parts of the phantom limb was the perceptual correlate of cortical reorganization in the brain. However, research published in 1995 by Flor et al. demonstrated that pain (rather than referred sensations) was the perceptual correlate of cortical reorganization.[11] In 1996 Knecht et al. published an analysis of Ramachandran's theory that concluded that there was no topographic relationship between referred sensations and cortical reorganization in the primary cortical areas[12] Recent research by Flor et al. suggests that non-painful referred sensations are correlated with a wide neural network outside the primary cortical areas.[13]

 

[Black Rose]

If the neurons firing are the ones who map why do the sensations feel as happen in the space located in the missing limb position and not in the head where the neurons actually are.

 

[TheScornedReflex]

showed that the primary somatosensory cortex undergoes substantial reorganization after the loss of sensory input.[9] Hearing about these results, Vilayanur S. Ramachandran theorized that phantom limb sensations could be due to this reorganization in the somatosensory cortex, which is located in the postcentral gyrus, and which receives input from the limbs and body.

Have you read all the article? It may answer the questions you have. By people who know what they are talking about. Possibly.

 

[SpaceYeti]

If the neurons firing are the ones who map why do the sensations feel as happen in the space located in the missing limb position and not in the head where the neurons actually are.

That question doesn't answer itself?! That's like asking "When a cartographer finds a bay he was previously unaware of, why does he draw it on the map he's been making?"

 

[BurnedOut]

Are you sure about your theory AK? There's no question of e=mc² and philosophical lingo. I theorize it is a concomitant phenomen encompassing the gestalt of motor + limbic-memory after losing a limb or having random sensations.

I precisely know what random sensations are. They engender an extremely weird tingling sensation at a particular region of the body. It's unusual how or why one can limit the sensation to a particular region evitably or inevitably. Many a times, especially during lucid dreaming sessions, they tell you to imagine the sensations and it's commonly observed that these sensations can indeed be arisen out of nowhere. Is it because our brain has mapped every single neural connection and then use a random.choice([coordinates]) to cause these sensations ? It's very unusual and I can't come with a theory too. All I can surmise for now, for the tingling sensations, it's an imbalance in the mineral levels in the neurons but it's sort of a mystery why they can be generated too. More like sensory psychosis

Sent from my SM-J730GM using Tapatalk

 

[Cognisant]

If pain is in the brain then why do I feel the sensation within the spacial coordinates of my foot? There is a distance between the map and the territory and one of them will not encompass the fullness of the other.

We develop a body map through association, lets say you lost a leg and I replaced it with a cybernetic prosthetic, if I pinch one of your new toes and you can't see what I'm doing you'll feel an unpleasant sensation but you won't know what I'm doing or where I'm doing it. Instinctively you'll be compelled to touch your new leg and as you do you'll extend your body map over it, your brain deducing where the new sensations are coming from as you pass your fingers over your new synthetic skin. So the next time I pinch one of your toes you'll know where the sensation is coming from because you know where that is relative to the rest of your body.

[BIMG]https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/images/encyc/A465-2621883202.1467126114.jpg[/BIMG]

If you had a full body prosthesis you would have to recreate this body map from scratch through experimentation and association, your brain might make mistakes but it'll correct those mistakes as it gains more experience with your new body.

This can be demonstrated by having someone hand you an object while your eyes are closed, without looking at the object you can figure out what it looks like (at least in terms of its shape) by associative spatial mapping, i.e. holding it in your hands and feeling it.

 

[Black Rose]

If I take both my hands and sit on my bed, I can rub both of them on my pillow with my eyes closed. I will experience the sensations on both hands at the same time or one hand if I choose. Spatially I know where my hands are, I know where m body position is. I can also look in my room and know spatially where objects in my room are. Music is spatial as well and tones occupy a volumetric area.

The question is, how are multiple sensations experienced in space at the same time and why is it that the brain is a different shape from which the experience of space derives from. When looking at my soda cup from Wendy's on my desk, I know my experience of the cup in space is not the shape in my brain. And I experience the whole cup at once. I see the lid the cup and the straw at the same time.

The body map (brain shape) is not the body territory (body shape in space). I think this is why cartesian dualism was thought up by Decart. I think that the mind is virtual as a feedback system but am not sure how continuity of identity happens. I am definitely sure the me 5 seconds from now is the same me 10 seconds from now.

I told my doctor that I experienced sensations in my head where my brain was. He said that I was not because the brain feels nothing. After several weeks I found a word that he agreed with. I said I interpreted the sensations I felt where my brain was located. This is very stupid because he should have just known what I meant. I get sensations where my brain is located but he said that was not true. Complete bullshit because the same could be said for my foot, "Your food feels nothing because your foot is not the area in your brain that interprets your foot sensations". It makes no sense that interpretations is required for him to know people can feel their brains. Doctors are stupid. A normal person would understand what I meant but Doctors have some kind of autism preventing communications with patients, I believe.

The basic premise is that you can experience 3 or more things at the same time in space. Colors, smells, taste, touch, and sounds. You can experience all 5 at the same time. But each sensation is in a different brain region. If you experience them all at once but they are separated in the brain, then what connects them together in consciousness but not in the brain?

 

[Hadoblado]

You're a difficult person to understand. I think your frustration is justified, but you think differently, so the ToM that people usually use for guiding their understanding of each other shorts out a bit when it comes to you.

You're thinking along a different path. Your foot analogy isn't the same as the head one, because you don't experience pain in your foot as being in your brain, even though that's where the magic is happening. If you were to say that you experience pain coming from your foot as if it were pain in your brain, that would cause the good doctor alarm. I think you're overestimating the understanding of the normal person when you say they'd understand better.

When you talk about brain regions, that's a useful simplification, but it feels like you're misusing it? The brain is interconnected. When you feel pain in three places, the 'regions' are almost certainly communicating with each other. For example, it's all probably getting jammed into the thalamus on the way into the brain, before being dispersed to the relevant topographic regions, before it getting sent to the anterior cingulate cortex and whatever else. When a neuroscientist says 'this is the X region', they usually mean that X stops happening when you mess with that region. But just like a car's parts, that doesn't mean that region is solely responsible for that function. Is the 'go' region in the car the accelerator, the engine, or the wheels? Wheels are essential to going, but they also do the turning etc.

You're asking what connects experiences in consciousness that isn't the brain, but I think the answer is nothing, it's just the brain. It's not clear to me what you think is happening that can't be achieved by a brain, or to be more exact, it's not clear to me why you think the brain is too simple to perform these operations.

 

[Cognisant]

Our minds can "see" themselves, if you were to observe yourself thinking you would be observing yourself observing yourself observing yourself, etc, but at no point would you see the thing that's doing the observing.

Qualia is a problem because any question about qualia is itself the answer, asking why blue looks like what you subjectively perceive to be blue can only be answered by saying blue is whatever you subjectively perceive blue to be.

 

[Black Rose]

I do not know how or why we can have awareness of any quality in multiple spatial locations at the same time. If I put my left hand in a bowl of cold water and my right hand in a bowl of hot water, I experience both hand temperatures at the same time and in spatial location. These temperature sensations do not happen in the spatial locations experienced. My hand does not feel the hot or cold water but the signals travel to a separate spatial location that is my brain. My brain feels the hot/cold water not the actual hands in the hot/cold water that is in a separate space than my brain. My hands feel nothing but my brain has aware of sensations located where my hands should be and both hands can be experienced at the same time.

 

[Hadoblado]

Can you reduce it to a logical contradiction?

You're saying this stuff, all of which I agree with, but the conclusions we're drawing are different.

 

[Black Rose]

Can you reduce it to a logical contradiction?

You're saying this stuff, all of which I agree with, but the conclusions we're drawing are different.

What do you think my conclusion is?

I am unclear on your conclusion.

If I were to have a conclusion it would be that simultaneity of experience is acausal in xyz space. This means that the sensation in my cold left-hand does not cause the sensation I have in my warm right hand nor the reverse. I simultaneously experience both hands but they are not the cause of each other's qualia.

It is unknown how the brain deals with simultaneity which would be acausal qualia. The brain is located in 3D space and each neuron is located in 3D space as well. If all neurons occupy separate spaces each action of each neuron is operating in simultaneity. The question is of how they unify across temporal and spatial dimensions, especially since the brain is aware of its human body in space that is not the same space as the neurons.

 

[Hadoblado]

So when you say 'acausal', you mean that two distinct instances of pain don't cause each other?

As in, the pain in my foot doesn't cause the pain in my hand and vice versa? Because that seems both wrong and obvious somehow.

It's obvious in that unrelated events are unrelated.

It's wrong in that just because two things aren't causally related doesn't mean they're acausal.

My conclusion is materialism.

I'm not trying to take you to pieces or anything. You're complaining that people should just understand you, but I'm having a lot of difficulty understanding you and I'm really trying. Even when I know what the words you say mean, it's like they go together unintuitively or something.

 

[Black Rose]

So when you say 'acausal', you mean that two distinct instances of pain don't cause each other?

As in, the pain in my foot doesn't cause the pain in my hand and vice versa? Because that seems both wrong and obvious somehow.

It's obvious in that unrelated events are unrelated.

It's wrong in that just because two things aren't causally related doesn't mean they're acausal.

My conclusion is materialism.

Both pain sensations I would be aware of at the same time (hand and foot). So does this mean that both sensations are processed in the same brain area or processed in two separate brain areas?

If I have two experiences processed by two separate brain areas then how would I be aware of both of them at the same time when in my brain they are compartmentalized in different brain areas? How can they be unified consciously yet physically separated?

You're complaining that people should just understand you

I was having problems with my doctor so should not have mentioned it. But is was a disagreement on semantics between us. I said I experience pain where my brain was and he said I did not experience pain in the location I was feeling it. The pain was spatially located where my brain is. Even if the brain has no pain receptors like the doctor said, the pain was felt in the location I said it was. I feel it there often.

 

[Hadoblado]

The brain is like an extremely complex production line for thoughts/perceptions. Just like how my shoes can be produced in both Spain and China (the soles were shipped to China from Spain, where the shoe was assembled in conjunction with other components), a thought or experience can be(and in my understanding, almost always is) the product of multiple brain regions.

To have the thought "my head is in pain", you're necessarily using language and pain processing components simultaneously.

But even then, I'm pretty sure it's possible for one area to do two things at once. For example, if you are both frightened of and disgusted by a chundersnake, your amygdala will be providing you with both disgust and fear processes.

Is it that crazy that two different brain regions would both send their content to a third brain region for interpretation?

 

[Black Rose]

Is it that crazy that two different brain regions would both send their content to a third brain region for interpretation?

I think this is the case for colors and shapes brain areas. But then the question arises: how does the color area allow us to experience red and green and blue and all other colors. Is the location of the area important because it happens in only that area.

Another thing in contemplation is that based in milliseconds that all actions are spiking neurons. At any given millisecond no spike is in contact with any other spike. Compartmentalization is not just region to region but neuron to neuron and spike to spike.

(Like a CRT television, the brain has frame rates where everything is synchronized. Gamma being the fastest when in the gamma state all neurons spike simultaneously at 80 Hz.)

I think that the reason we have experiences is not because brain areas are interconnected to combine different sensations together (I do not think there is a brain area where consciousness is unified). But that brainwaves spiking in unison would create one moment happening instantly. If everything happens at the same time (synchronization) then everything in one experience would be unified together even if the neurons and spikes are compartmentalized.

A frame rate unifies all brain activity as one experience. That is my thought at least.

 

[Hadoblado]

I don't know about framerate. I'm not sure if it's necessary for action potentials to fire simultaneously when it's occurring too fast for our perception of time (200hertz?). There's also no known mechanism I'm aware of that would coordinate everything.

This is a site that we used in neuroscience. I found it exceptionally useful as a wiki for all things neuro. It shows a pretty good range of topics at a social, psychological, neurological, cellular, and molecular level, and also breaks the information down to basic, intermediate, and advanced. Unfortunately I've forgotten most of what I learned, but I still keep it in my bookmarks.

 

[BurnedOut]

I don't know about framerate. I'm not sure if it's necessary for action potentials to fire simultaneously when it's occurring too fast for our perception of time (200hertz?). There's also no known mechanism I'm aware of that would coordinate everything.

This is a site that we used in neuroscience. I found it exceptionally useful as a wiki for all things neuro. It shows a pretty good range of topics at a social, psychological, neurological, cellular, and molecular level, and also breaks the information down to basic, intermediate, and advanced. Unfortunately I've forgotten most of what I learned, but I still keep it in my bookmarks.

I assure you, actions potentials are out of the picture. If that was the case, it would start causing neuro-degenerative diseases

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[gps]

I do not know how or why we can have awareness of any quality in multiple spatial locations at the same time. If I put my left hand in a bowl of cold water and my right hand in a bowl of hot water, ....

This is almost a replica of an example provided by a friend and room mate in college for the absurdity of statistical averages/norms/means over outliers in the WHOLE distribution:

"Every day when I get home, my feet are killing me.
So I fill one pail with scalding hot water and another with ice water.
I place one foot in each pail.
On average it feels pretty good."

On average whatever IQ is attributed or ascribed to me IS a mere statistical artifact of sort average/mean/mode which distracts from actual OUTLIER performaces requiring instantaneous Inteligence, creativity, knowledge, and/or wisdom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier

Of course this rhetoric is merely reflective of my qualia and personal experience as an Ink Blot routinely (mis)used by those of us -- ALL OF US -- who simply can't NOT `project' and `apperceive' themes as per Power of Suggestion, power of extant cultural frameworks -- however ill-founded -- etc. ad nauseum.

 

[gps]

I assure you, actions potentials are out of the picture.

If that was the case, it would start causing neuro-degenerative diseases

It's clear that you don't yet grasp the significance of TIMING, as in Kairos Time.
Understanding Action potentials and timing are crucial in understanding the phenomenon known as `stuttering'

If you'd like to model such phenomena i recommend building a multivibrator with transistors then gradually heat one or both transisistors to the point of thermal runaway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multivibrator
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=thermal+runaway

Then you can ponder how calcium channels and other synaptic factors can influence neurons which stimuli neurons which in turn (re)stimulate them.