A proposal for the problem of INTP laziness

[Architect]

I've spent years investigating this problem and believe I've finally cracked it. Obvious, in a way in hindsight, like all good solutions. It took having an INTP for a son and watching him struggle with homework the way I've struggled in my life to get things done. So much easier to see yourself from the outside. And something I haven't talked about here is how lazy I really am. I put a good foot forward in AA to try and inspire younger INTP's to make something of themselves, but the reality is that I've struggled with this issue as much as any.

So let's review the functions. I'm firmly convinced that Type originates in the Cortex. It is unlearning and unchanging, and it doesn't "think" (in the neocortical sense of free will) but provides instinctual motivations. Now a person is primarily composed of their first two functions with the latter two being relatively weak, for an INTP then that consists of Ti and Ne.

Ti, being an introverted function, is narrow and deep. It also primarily orients towards the self. It's a little self obsessed, as evidenced by the strength of INTP focused discussion groups like this one. The Ti Function rewards the neocortex when it decides to engage in Ti oriented activities, like reading, being on the computer, thinking or solving puzzles. Ti is a judging function, and wants to discern, rank, order and orient.

Ne, being an extroverted function, is wide and shallow. It also primarily orients towards the world. It focuses on the Big Picture, on other, on the global. It's also like an inquisitive bunny, it is a little capricious and wants to explore one thing after another, never staying too long anywhere. Ne is a perceiving function, so wants to leave open ended, flexible, and loose.

Now, take those two ideas and combine with the idea that INTP's are highly independent which is a byproduct of the Ti/Ne combination. With that combination in mind let's consider an INTP with a homework assignment.

The assignment is an externally imposed workload from an authority figure (teacher, school, boss, job etc). So when an INTP sits down to work on it, the playing field is already negative. The INTP naturally doesn't want to do an externally imposed assignment. So while sitting there trying to work on it, the Ti motivation is to not focus on the details of the work (which may be actually quite interesting to Ti), but instead focus on the self. So the INTP is more than likely thinking about how much they hate the assignment, how bored they are, what they'd rather be doing, or in my case puzzling about why I'm so distracted trying to do an assignment, which frankly is something I'd like to do.

Now ideally a persons second function plays the role of coming to the rescue here. The auxiliary function is a secondary motivation that helps guide the dominant and helps it avoid becoming pathological, if it existed in isolation. But in this case we have Ne, which is good in that it goes outward (by design) so should help orient the psyche through motivations towards the assignment. But, unlike Se which can focus on a concrete thing like an assignment*, Ne wants to be more divergent. So it orients not just toward the task at hand but at the totality of what could be worked on. So here is the missing key, Ne helpfully orients outwards, but divergently, not convergently toward the task at hand.

This is a theory in progress so I don't have a ready made solution for you. I'm continuing to investigate this and apply in my life. Initially I'll say I'd stab at a solution in the following. An INTP can approach the issue either through 'modulation' either their Ti or Ne motivations. With Ti that means simply forcing a focus on the task. I'd actually not recommend this. Mainly because it's a top down dictatorial approach that involves the suppression of Ne to a degree. Without adequate Ne support an INTP isn't open to those necessary divergent ideas, so it can become a 'death march'. Maybe the assignment isn't worth doing, or there are shortcuts that could be taken? With Ne 'offline' those important ideas can be missed.

Instead I'd recommend that the INTP use the Ti self directed obsession to focus Ne a little bit. Let it go outward but confine its focus to the task at hand. Set a boundary condition for Ne, a boundary for the job that it can't step beyond.

Discussion welcome.

* It's instructive here to contrast with the ISTP with Ti/Se/Ni/Fe. Their intuition is low on the stack and introverted, their auxiliary outward oriented function is Sensory, so can focus on the physical and real in front of them. Despite being SP types who want thrill and fun, I've seen that ISTP's can be quite accomplished and good at taking on tasks. They make excellent engineers, all due to exchanging S for N in the auxiliary.

 

[Jennywocky]

I won't belabor the discussion.

I identified deeply with the Ne section and about Ne's divergence contributing to the problem. (I have an an issue with 'scope' and spend a lot of time shooting along about things that are outside of "mission parameters" so to speak.)

Also, my experience is that once I get "locked in," then I'm good to go. But it highlights the same problem you mention.

First, that Ti resents being told what to think about, especially if it's not interesting or is the least interesting aspect of the topic at hand -- it like to be self-directed. This vanishes once I 'accept the programming' and get locked in and focused on solving that problem regardless.

Second, the aspect of Ne you mentioned regarding divergence. In the process of brainstorming the problem, this is where I end up wandering far away... again, more interesting avenues of exploration, and I have to keep reining it back in while giving it enough leash to fully explore things.

I think the forced focus is appropriate depending on context, although if you have to do that too much, I think it will burn you out and ruin quality of life. Maybe a compromise of sorts -- like setting a hard time limit on time spent "going nuts" and then reining things back to review what you've uncovered, on task?

 

[StevenM]

INTP's are not lazy.

It's just that their personal, intrinsic interests, and ambitions don't properly resonate to the tune of society's more objective goals.

At least for myself, I have ambition and motivation. Tons of it. (Unless I fall in depression). Because of where I decide on spending that ambition, sometimes makes it seem like I'm lazy.

I'm going to think more about what you said about the brain, and cognitive functions and maybe come back with something more.

 

[Architect]

I think the forced focus is appropriate depending on context, although if you have to do that too much, I think it will burn you out and ruin quality of life.

That's what I meant by the "dictatorial approach". In my experience that comes when you try to clamp down and just do things.

Maybe a compromise of sorts -- like setting a hard time limit on time spent "going nuts" and then reining things back to review what you've uncovered, on task?

Yes exactly, that's what I'm driving towards here. First, I agree that an INTP needs time to go 'free wheel'. Stare at a wall, do anything and think about anything. I usually have that time in the evening. I'm tired of doing stuff, so I just read some Sci-Fi, surf the net or watch a movie. It's an important recharge. But it's way too easy for that to infiltrate the rest of our lives in my experience. Case in point; I'm doing on something for work. It's highly interesting and involves everything I want to work on, however I still have trouble focusing. This has really puzzled me, if I'm doing exactly what I want, why do I still not focus on it as much as I could?

This is what the thread is about, I think Ne is still 'leaking' too much at work. I find myself speculating about all sorts of stuff. Which is fine, but it's ultimately unsatisfying because I look at myself at the end of the day and have to admit that I'm in a perfect situation, am doing exactly what I want, and STILL not getting anything done. That's pathological.

The same thing happens with my son. We're working on a game together. He wants to do it, I want to do it, but somehow we talk about it a lot but don't get much done. Sometimes we take the dictatorial approach, and make some progress, but ultimately that's not satisfying. But neither is the fact that we're not making much forward progress. So I'm proposing a better marriage between Ti and Ne, to instead have something like focused divergence as a possible solution to this dilemma.

INTP's are not lazy.

I agree, I choose that word to have a catchy title. My conclusion some time ago was that we work hard, but in generally non productive ways. Which is fine, but unless you can bring your ideas to fruition in the world it's somewhat pointless in the end.

 

[Rook]

The analogy does make sense, or I feel that is relevant to my psyche at least.

Is it possible factor the weaker functions into the explanation, or are they too unpredictable/redundant?

 

[TBerg]

I don't think humans are meant to operate smoothly under all conditions. I think there are always going to be unconscious factors that tell us to be animalistic instead of being heroic.

 

[Architect]

Is it possible factor the weaker functions into the explanation, or are they too unpredictable/redundant?

I think they play peripheral role in life with the exception of the inferior, which can cause general havoc at times. At any rate those come in for more exceptional situations which may work in to this, but I'm looking into the mainstream case.

I don't think humans are meant to operate smoothly under all conditions. I think there are always going to be unconscious factors that tell us to be animalistic instead of being heroic.

Well I'm talking about knowing how to live your life more effectively, not trying to dictate how to live your life. INTP's profess to dreams of accomplishing great things (e.g. the Einstein motivation), but most of us fall short. Maybe looking into why can help.

Certainly there are always other motivations playing in our psyche also.

 

[Analyzer]

How would you explain the ENTP? They are Ne dom's so would they have an advantage or would it be easier for them since Ti serves their Ne? Is there a bias toward focusing on the external? It seems like the discussion points how being Ti'd out all the time is not necessarily good(which I agree), but figuring out how to incorporate Ne in service of Ti is how you become most effective.

I remember you mentioning before in the AA thread how hitting "flow" for INTP's or types in general is by combining the dominant and auxiliary functions. For the ISTJ programmer they can recall and have a sense of what information is important(Si), than implement or figure out an accurate methodology(Te). Other types don't seem to have a problem as their first two functions are naturally balanced compared to N's especially NP's. An INTP like you said want's to speculate on things that don't really have boundaries(Ne), which can lead them astray. Is it possible that it's best to focus on an activity where you can engage your Ti predominantly, while having your Ne go off freely when it wants or needs be.

What I could see as an example would be creating or analyzing something conceptual then speculating on it's possibilities. Seems like something like this would marry Ti and Ne most effectively. This could be related why INTP's are known as the Architects/Thinkers which is a fairly broad characterization in itself.

I think the problem might be related to developing the tertiary function. Si knows it's boundaries, which are subjective of course but still do as in case with ISJ's. Without a developed Si or at least partaking in something which would incorporate your Si seems like it would be hard to keep Ne in check so to speak.

 

[Architect]

How would you explain the ENTP? They are Ne dom's so would they have an advantage or would it be easier for them since Ti serves their Ne?

Good idea, but in my experience ENTP's have it worse. I've known some who actually envy the INTP with our Ti dominant. It seems that the problem with a Ne dominant is that the much weaker/advisory Ti can't easily get Ne to slow down.

It seems like the discussion points how being Ti'd out all the time is not necessarily good(which I agree), but figuring out how to incorporate Ne in service of Ti is how you become most effective.

Yes exactly. INTP's are like a cat stuck between the food bowl and the catnip. In our case it's the Ti 'food' and the Ne 'catnip'. We want to make the discovery, write the software, book or whatever, and also study everything under the sun. I'm thinking that reigning in the study to something more specific (the topic at hand) can help marry the two. In other words too much "narrow and deep/Ti" is not optimal, neither is too much "shallow and wide" Ne. In practice it seems to be difficult finding a balance.

I remember you mentioning before in the AA thread how hitting "flow" for INTP's or types in general is by combining the dominant and auxiliary functions. For the ISTJ programmer they can recall and have a sense of what information is important(Si), than implement or figure out an accurate methodology(Te). Other types don't seem to have a problem as their first two functions are naturally balanced compared to N's especially NP's. An INTP like you said want's to speculate on things that don't really have boundaries(Ne), which can lead them astray. Is it possible that it's best to focus on an activity where you can engage your Ti predominantly, while having your Ne go off freely when it wants or needs be.

Good points, thanks for the reminder.

I think the problem might be related to developing the tertiary function. Si knows it's boundaries, which are subjective of course but still do as in case with ISJ's. Without a developed Si or at least partaking in something which would incorporate your Si seems like it would be hard to keep Ne in check so to speak.

Could be - develop these ideas. I see the Teritary as being a weak function. In real life I use it to dredge up what has worked in the past and what hasn't - stored knowledge. If it is too strong I've seen INTP's become unresponsive to new directions and ideas. An INTP friend of mine seems to suffer from this. He's an engineer, yet rejects new technologies and ideas all the time just because he used them some time in the past when they didn't work.* He also has an old technology fetish - he collects old broken equipment. I think his Si is too strong.

So I'm doubtful that Si does or should play a strong role, but am open to ideas here.

* For example, AI voice and image recognition. Today's software is good and getting better - much better. Yet he's still stuck in the "it doesn't work" because he tried it in the past. Or with .NET, he's convinced that its a pig, or Java, because he's thinking about machines from five years ago. On a modern machine these libraries fly. I too have been guilty of over reliance on looking to the past via the Si motivation, I thought cell phones would flop because they were small and had bad data rates. Idiot.

 

[Analyzer]

Yes exactly. INTP's are like a cat stuck between the food bowl and the catnip. In our case it's the Ti 'food' and the Ne 'catnip'. We want to make the discovery, write the software, book or whatever, and also study everything under the sun. I'm thinking that reigning in the study to something more specific (the topic at hand) can help marry the two. In other words too much "narrow and deep/Ti" is not optimal, neither is too much "shallow and wide" Ne. In practice it seems to be difficult finding a balance.

Maybe by trying to distinguish categories of studies. Ne wants to incorporate everything but categories of knowledge do exist. AI, psychology, philosophy and others fall into the area of cognitive science. If these are your primary interests than thinking about specifics in physics or geology which while might be related broadly, deter or distract your Ti focus.

Could be - develop these ideas. I see the Teritary as being a weak function. In real life I use it to dredge up what has worked in the past and what hasn't - stored knowledge. If it is too strong I've seen INTP's become unresponsive to new directions and ideas. An INTP friend of mine seems to suffer from this. He's an engineer, yet rejects new technologies and ideas all the time just because he used them some time in the past when they didn't work.* He also has an old technology fetish - he collects old broken equipment. I think his Si is too strong.

So I'm doubtful that Si does or should play a strong role, but am open to ideas here.

* For example, AI voice and image recognition. Today's software is good and getting better - much better. Yet he's still stuck in the "it doesn't work" because he tried it in the past. Or with .NET, he's convinced that its a pig, or Java, because he's thinking about machines from five years ago. On a modern machine these libraries fly. I too have been guilty of over reliance on looking to the past via the Si motivation, I thought cell phones would flop because they were small and had bad data rates. Idiot.

Interesting, yeah he might be stuck in a "Ti-Si loop". Perhaps he doesn't want to incorporate new information as he has already identified the Ti-Ne dilemma unconsciously. For him not using Ne he finds himself getting less confused or distracted, even if that means rejecting new technology. I also think extraverts pick and choose when to use their introverted auxiliary as it's a lot more acceptable to devote times for being introverted, compared to the other way around.

I just see Si as something that goes hand in hand with Ne. The balance between potential and actualization is what makes up the duo. Look at how ISJ's have this problem with accepting possibilities or ENP's with following some structure. Of course in a grip experience I have noticed some ENP's being obsessed with how things have worked before and sticking to these traditions as they feel uncomfortable leading with Ne.

 

[StevenM]

Perhaps, a certain part of it is 'stimulation' and reward. A dopamine rush I guess. And what gives that reward is using the dominant, and auxiliary, and also (without realizing it), the tertiary and inferior.

But considering the leading functions, Ti - Ne. To me, using these functions gets me stimulated when I come up with a new, original idea, that has my own, individualized rationality, and seems practical. When the idea can be practically applied to something that hasn't been thought of before, this gives me reward. It stimulates me and gives me energy.

When doing a homework assignment, this kind of stimulation doesn't come easily. When developing a game, it's extreme fun planning and brainstorming all the components and how they are going to fit together. But once everything is realized and planned, and it's time to buckle down and do the "work", the stimulation and reward drops, as there is no more expectation to come with anything....'new'.

I could be wrong, but perhaps INTP's are forever hungry for what isn't. When something 'is', it loses all it's appeal.

Or if I"m wrong, whatever it is that brings stimulation and reward in doing that task. How can that task become....exciting?

 

[StevenM]

Actually, I also want to mention something else I was thinking.

I was thinking that solving such a problem, may not be merely solved using Jung's cognitive functions. It may have a certain relevancy, and definitely can be used somewhat as some kind of guideline.

But for something like this, we might have to turn more towards modern psychology, and look at the things that we have discovered about the brain since then. The new things we are discovering about the structure of the brain, and also, some of the reasoning behind certain behaviors. Things that actually have been studied and have evidence for.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Greatest affinity occurs when instead of the task being forced, it's a selected Ti activity which serves as food for Ne, with results of Ne spending time on the material being positive rather than counter productive.

This handicaps on-time resolutions, decision-making, performing the necessary preparations for the work.

Ti is cortex and structure, Ne behaves like neocortex, the maker of connections.

I find it helpful to limit my resources, the enemy is the repetition of many tasks, when the Ne-Ti can already predict the outcome of the activity and grows disinterested with the task, when it's a lower level task such as homework or repetitive work.

By matching the difficulty of the task with the ability it's possible to achieve the aforementioned flow, which is a very productive state, but this also has a risk of external distractions, such as phone calls, someone entering the room, that breaks the immersion as well as creates the feeling of dissatisfaction or frustration is what I personally found.

Because it's sometimes that difficult to get into the mindset, that it comes with relief or happiness, maybe comparable to starting the car engine after a few failed attempts.

 

[Architect]

Perhaps, a certain part of it is 'stimulation' and reward. A dopamine rush I guess. And what gives that reward is using the dominant, and auxiliary, and also (without realizing it), the tertiary and inferior.

Actually I'd say the inferior can give the largest dopamine type "highs". A common aspect of an inferior grip is the transcendence (e.g. moving beyond yourself) experience it can convey. Which is why it's so alluring. The dominant/auxiliary functions is most being yourself, so shouldn't convey a high or an especially pleasurable experience.

Paradoxically I propose it gives the opposite effect, one of low energy, or rather easy effort. Being out of your type takes effort, but it can give you a high. Kind of like climbing a mountain. It's hard, you don't want to do it, but you want the transitory reward.

This is one reason its taken me so long to figure this out personally, I kept going for the high experiences, not the steady state.

But considering the leading functions, Ti - Ne. To me, using these functions gets me stimulated when I come up with a new, original idea, that has my own, individualized rationality, and seems practical. When the idea can be practically applied to something that hasn't been thought of before, this gives me reward. It stimulates me and gives me energy.

Yes good example. I might characterize that as Flow or "Optimal Functioning"

When doing a homework assignment, this kind of stimulation doesn't come easily. When developing a game, it's extreme fun planning and brainstorming all the components and how they are going to fit together. But once everything is realized and planned, and it's time to buckle down and do the "work", the stimulation and reward drops, as there is no more expectation to come with anything....'new'.

Excellent. Whereas an ISTX colleague of mine (I can't decide, probably a mature ISTJ) apparently gets his rewards from doing his duty.

Or does he? He parks his ass in his chair day after day and grinds. I talked to him once about what developing is like for him, he described seeing the problem until everything else disappears. In fact he doesn't like interruptions, it is like he's coming out of a trance.

I wonder if INTP's just go for the easy rewards and are missing the other, even better ones?

But for something like this, we might have to turn more towards modern psychology

Possibly, but given my examples above I suspect Type has the largest role to play here. I have approximately the same brain as my colleague, but why has he found it so much easier to steadily work?

 

[StevenM]

Some more thoughts.

It seems that there may be a big difference in attitude and behaviour when faced with 3 mundane tasks, as opposed to a whole booklet of them.

There is also a difference in attitude and behaviour when having to do a mundane task now, opposed to having a two-month deadline.

Then there are personal feelings and experiences, that effect the mindset depending on the task. As well, there may be a differing significance of the perceived rewards accompanying the specific work.

**********************

For example, I find shoveling the driveway after a huge snow storm, not only boring and taking away from my personal time, but also overwhelming with the amount of workload that needs to be done. (We can get over 4 feet of heavy snow)

And yet, I've done it for quite a few years now.

First, I break it up into much smaller chunks, which would take 15-30 minutes each. Come inside, make a hot-chocolate, look up emails, strum the guitar, and get back out again for another small chunk. I can motivate myself to get out there, because after all, it's only just another small chunk, and then I can come back inside and relax again.

When it does get completed, I make sure to give myself quite a good pat on the back. The whole process of treating myself on breaks, and reminding myself of all the various benefits, keeps my personal attitude of the task positive, and more likely that I will tackle it again.

Yeah, sorry, my reply is kind of cheesy.

 

[Pyropyro]

Perhaps Fe gives a little more "oomph" to the INTP's motivation to work.

For example, last week I have to do a lot of paperwork for a certain project. I really don't like the work since I know I'll simply be helping lazy bureaucrats get their glory. However, on our meeting I learned that the paperwork will also help researchers who have to gather data amidst the bloated corpses of flood-drowned children. After I learned about that aspect of the nature of my job, I started to work harder. Note that it's still the same job but I have different levels of empathy for the people behind it.

 

[ddspada]

First, I break it up into much smaller chunks, which would take 15-30 minutes each. Come inside, make a hot-chocolate, look up emails, strum the guitar, and get back out again for another small chunk. I can motivate myself to get out there, because after all, it's only just another small chunk, and then I can come back inside and relax again.

I work at my very best when I can divide work into 40-50 minute segments followed by 10-20 minutes of doing something else. When reading something for a difficult class, solving logic problems, writing reports or commentary, or correcting texts, I get much more done in two 40-minute segments than in two continuous hours -- I just get distracted and stop paying attention. Solitaire, a cup of tea, origami or Street Fighter make for good buffers between two working sessions. I find, naturally, that I need a lower work-to-rest ratio if the work is more difficult; but one-ish-hour cycles work for me. Even then, it is sometimes difficult to find sufficient motivation to start this sequence of cycles in the first place.

 

[Architect]

Perhaps Fe gives a little more "oomph" to the INTP's motivation to work.

Yes I believe Fe for INTP's, and the inferior in general provides a high level goal and motivation for people. Or, ideally it should.

For INTP's that means that we ideally function when our goals are motivated by doing good for people, or better we do things that are good for humanity. You can see this with the INTP secret desire to become the great scientist or thinker who provides some new insight to humanity (cue Albert Einstein).

I've been happier since I stopped trying to help people directly which more often than not leads to an inferior grip and/or simple frustration, because I'm bad at it. Instead I am motivated to do my work (e.g. leading to this thread) because I want to write new software which can help humanity. Among many other things my results at work help planes land safely, which is satisfying to me.

Anyhow you can see the inferior distant goal mechanism operating in other types. Sensors, with intuition in the inferior or tertiary who because very religious, for example.

 

[Architect]

Some more thoughts.

It seems that there may be a big difference in attitude and behaviour when faced with 3 mundane tasks, as opposed to a whole booklet of them.

For example, I find shoveling the driveway after a huge snow storm, not only boring and taking away from my personal time, but also overwhelming with the amount of workload that needs to be done. (We can get over 4 feet of heavy snow)

...

Yeah, sorry, my reply is kind of cheesy.

lol ... shoveling snow is a different example, because that is about out how to motivate yourself to use functions you don't have. I'm talking about the INTP propensity to not accomplish much even when they're doing something they like doing. I think it's the trickster Ne which leads them astray.

 

[B.C.P.]

I would just like to say that I have been struggling with this meta-cognition about my current tasks, even when I find them interesting, because it reduces my efficiency and makes me feel like I can never utilize my full capacities. Naturally I isolated the issue and considered it a personal defect, but seeing my struggle explained in the context of the cognitive functions from other people of my type no less, I feel like there's a way I can integrate or improve this natural function of my mind. I can at least accept it as normal. Thank you for sharing, Architect.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I miss the days when Architect didn't just write INTP life advice. Come on, this subject has been gone over again and again already, there's nothing new here. Ne fucks with INTPs but INTPs are fucked without Ne, solution: balanced application of Ne. Great. Except balance isn't in Ne's nature. Can't eat the cake and have it too. This must be some midlife-crisis inferior Fe thing.

I think a well developed Si coupled with a sound holistic understanding of the world in general is what helps here. But that's not something you can work towards easily. Rather, it comes with age. The reason you can get around these issues is because at you are you already know most of the branches of the tree, your Ne can't go bonkers like it used to because it's got too much ground covered already, you can focus on a task because the distraction don't hit you with the same intensity they used to, things simply aren't that interesting anymore.

 

[Architect]

I miss the days when Architect didn't just write INTP life advice.

I take requests, for a modest fee. Pro-bono days are over.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I miss the days when Architect didn't just write INTP life advice. Come on, this subject has been gone over again and again already, there's nothing new here. Ne fucks with INTPs but INTPs are fucked without Ne, solution: balanced application of Ne. Great. Except balance isn't in Ne's nature. Can't eat the cake and have it too. This must be some midlife-crisis inferior Fe thing.

New short post from PJ

Why INTPs & INFPs Should Confer with INFJs or INTJs

Problem solution: Listen to those INJ's.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

This seems to beg the question of why advice doesn't equate to real change. I have to agree with Cherry here. That's not to say that giving life advice adds nothing. It primes people. Gets them closer to being ready for a real change. I'll define real change as sustained and functional behavior and mind-set. What's the tipping point? Real life experience and struggle over time. If you're lucky, you'll be pliant (what suffering and struggle accomplish) enough to reach for and do what's necessary but only when life's made you ready no matter what your type is.

 

[Grayman]

I havent read all the posts but my personal experience is that Ti keeps me on task while Ne demands a new one. Like you said, Ne has no linear projection but that is why I need Ti. Ti demands independent thought disconnected from the outside world making Ne the tie between concepts.

When I do homework I regulate Ti to contribute more focus time toward known goals. My Ne redirects my path almost randomly and not necessarily in the direction that is expected in the procedure or plan. I could ignore the impulses to diverge and try to stay on task but starving my Ne contributes to frustration and an inability to understand the concepts. My Ne gains understanding by experiencing and comparing all valid and invalid tangent concepts.

In short, the tangents are required but it takes practice to regulate them with efficiency. Doing tasks will never be a straight line for me but with time I can still get them done.

The largest issue I have is repetition. My Ne desires new input but the mundane tasks fail to utilize my Ne function causing me to either go inmmy head to seek out input in my inner world while I commence my task in autopilot or to seek out a lot of short breaks that provide such input.

 

[Architect]

This seems to beg the question of why advice doesn't equate to real change.

In my experience some people are willing and able to change, and other people (most it seems) are unwilling and unable. I've always appreciated advice of the form I dole out. I'll listen to it, think about it and if the advice is sound will adopt it. Not many people are like that in my opinion.

Why the difference between individuals? Taking it backwards, first is the ability to change. It's extremely hard, you have to cogitate on the change, and let your brain refactor itself overnight. So its gradual and takes a lot of time, and therefore is hard to track. So some people believe that change doesn't happen, just because its hard for them to see it. Personally I can recognize who I was and who I am - maybe via Si - so can compare to two. Also, some people just don't want to change. ISFJ's in particular want to preserve the past (Si dominant) so resist it.

So in the unlikely case where you are willing to change, you also have to see it first. It's extremely difficult for us to see ourselves from the outside. I'm not good at this either, I've had the benefit of an INFJ who is good at telling me my failings however.

So to answer your question I think it's a set of unlikely circumstances.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Well it's good to know that in case of failure there's a scapegoat prepped and ready

 

[Grayman]

You seem to be viewing everything through a dark curtain.

I miss the days when Architect didn't just write INTP life advice.

He seems inspired as a parent trying to do best for his son. In Ask Architect he spent enough time discussing the topic interest of others and it is frustrating seeing you bring him down when he is on an INTP forum discussing things that are about everyday life and are more essential than many of the discussions that we have on this forum.

Come on, this subject has been gone over again and again already, there's nothing new here.

Rediscussing things after some time has past generally provides new insights. Even small ones are helpfull in gaining a wholesome understanding.

Ne fucks with INTPs but INTPs are fucked without Ne, solution: balanced application of Ne. Great. Except balance isn't in Ne's nature. Can't eat the cake and have it too. This must be some midlife-crisis inferior Fe thing.

Defeatist?

I imagine the discussion is how to balance, and how to inspire the youth to find this balance. I am sure there is a way or some of us would not be capable of being seen as hard workers.

 

[StevenM]

Pay a visit to Larry the Cable Guy. He might have a line of advice.

 

[Grayman]

Pay a visit to Larry the Cable Guy. He might have a line of advice.

?

 

[Architect]

You seem to be viewing everything through a dark curtain.

INFJ - negative outlook typical for the sub-species

He seems inspired as a parent trying to do best for his son.

Pretty much. Raising an INTP is a painful experience boys and girls, have some sympathy for your parents. I have to pull my wife from apoplexy periodically ... so much unrealized potential. You see somebody smarter than most of his compatriots who looks like an idiot savant. Sitting on the couch taking forever to do some simple little assignment.

Anyhow yes you said it, watching him grow up gives nuances and further ideas into specifically how we work. Here I'm highlighting the precise mechanism I think is at work for the INTP work avoidance. It seems to be how our Type motivates our consciousness to direct our attention to anything but what we're working on, even as I say if it's something we are probably interested in.

Anyhow, old Cherry is bitter there's no "Ask Muse" for INFJ's. My wife complains about the same thing.

I imagine the discussion is how to balance, and how to inspire the youth to find this balance. I am sure there is a way or some of us would not be capable of being seen as hard workers.

I see INTP's as just as hard of workers as anybody else, but it's just that our work is less productive. Which would be fine (SP types are happy doing non productive work), but the problem is that we actually want to accomplish things. So, a dichotomy.

 

[Cherry Cola]

He seems inspired as a parent trying to do best for his son. In Ask Architect he spent enough time discussing the topic interest of others and it is frustrating seeing you bring him down when he is on an INTP forum discussing things that are about everyday life and are more essential than many of the discussions that we have on this forum.

Look I think Architect and his wife seem like really great parents and I wish mine and any other IN's parents had the same insights when I was growing up. It would probably have saved me and many other from feeling useless and out of place in the world. it's just that everything in the OP is stuff I've already read in ask Architect several times. It was interesting for a while but now it's been the same thing over and over for quite some time.

That and the fact that he bypassed the question raised by paradoxparadigm by simply saying if these strategies don't work out it's because of the individuals attitude. Problem being that with the right strategy and an attitude that lets you follow through you can solve most any problem. But for INTPs following through is a large part of the issue. I think perhaps some strategy on how to follow strategies is required? In the end there is of course no easy and quick solution.

@Architect: Indeed, man like 8/10 times you mention your wife doing something I'm like "yeah I do that too" lol

 

[Architect]

It's just that everything in the OP is stuff I've already read in ask Architect several times. It was interesting for a while but now it's been the same thing over and over for quite some time.

That and the fact that he bypassed the question raised by paradoxparadigm by simply saying if these strategies don't work out it's because of the individuals attitude. Problem being that with the right strategy and an attitude that lets you follow through you can solve most any problem. But for INTPs following through is a large part of the issue. I think perhaps some strategy on how to follow strategies is required? In the end there is of course no easy and quick solution.

This isn't AA, if you have different ideas please bring them up. The problem with that thread was that it was too much of me blathering on, it bothered me that I didn't get a lot of feedback or discussion (or enough of it). Except occasionally some virulent hothead would pop off with how disturbed he was at this or that, blah blah.

So here I'm approaching the question from a more nuanced perspective (it seems to me) and looking for more of a discussion, so take it or leave it. On paradoxparadigm7's question, hey that's all I came up with. Elaborate on your point if you have one.

 

[StevenM]

Perhaps, it's hard to get things done with Fe being in inferior. Or harder yet, Fi and Se being the 7th and 8th functions.

Se data makes it really hard to concentrate. Fi messes INTP's up, and emotional structures are all out of whack, disorganized messes that beg for straightening out.

Even more so when being a kid. It gets better as a person grows older. Teenage years are a weird exception, being more risky and getting into trouble.

 

[Polaris]

Derail moved to Oubliette.

 

[redbaron]

Ironically the reason I didn't bother making a serious reply is because I'm lazy, but I guess I'll outline why I thought this thread may as well have just been merged with the AA thread.

So let's review the functions. I'm firmly convinced that Type originates in the Cortex. It is unlearning and unchanging, and it doesn't "think" (in the neocortical sense of free will) but provides instinctual motivations.

Let's start by making a slew of broad statements with no supporting material.

The Ti Function rewards the neocortex when it decides to engage in Ti oriented activities.

And build on that with more unfounded assumptions.

So the INTP is more than likely thinking about how much they hate the assignment, how bored they are, what they'd rather be doing

How is this even remotely INTP specific? Pretty sure you just described a bunch of things applicable to pretty much everyone who's ever worked a job?

~

And so on and the pattern inevitably continues whereby people see in MBTI whatever the fuck they want to see. I suppose that's part of what attracts people who identify with the general consensus of what constitutes an "INTP" to MBTI in the first place. You can just sit there and mentally masturbate for eternity and you'll always be able to find a way to make it look intelligent.

No wonder MBTI has such a cult following with disillusioned introverts.

Moral of the story is: stay on drugs and don't do school kids.

SmfkrpsoHg

I hereby dedicate this post to Brontosaurie.

 

[RaBind]

I hereby dedicate this post to Brontosaurie.

That's not enough, you'll need at least a dozen virgins.

My impression:
Ne(Aux)-Perceives patterns in environment

Si(Ter)-Stores said patterns

Ti(dom)-Analyzes the various already pretty abstract patterns and organizes them into some theory/explanation

correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Jungle]

This is my first post - it's good to find this forum! I discovered MBTI a few years ago, but it is only recently that I have realised how insightful and powerful this system is. The game changer for me has been understanding the functional stack, and in particular the role of the inferior function.

I have the classic INTP problem of not following through on projects that I start. I've recently started thinking that Fe might be the key to this.

Yes I believe Fe for INTP's, and the inferior in general provides a high level goal and motivation for people. Or, ideally it should.

For INTP's that means that we ideally function when our goals are motivated by doing good for people, or better we do things that are good for humanity. You can see this with the INTP secret desire to become the great scientist or thinker who provides some new insight to humanity (cue Albert Einstein).

I agree, but I would argue that there is also a side of Fe which is less altruistic/long-term, and more about reaching out for social validation and acclaim in the short-term.

For example, I have been working on some major long-form writing projects over the past few years. The problem I always have is that I don't have the patience or discipline to really get into the nuances of each project and 'go the distance'.

However, a while back something interesting happened. I was part of a creative writing group that met up once a week to critique a medium length (approx 20 pages) excerpt of somebody's work on a rotating basis. Looking back, I never missed a deadline and I was always reasonably happy with the quality of work that I shared. But after the group folded up I went back to my old procrastinating ways.

This gets me thinking that perhaps I would have more motivation if I started writing in a form where there is less time delay between the writing process and the audience feedback, i.e. creative non-fiction / journalism / essays. Or perhaps, the more logical thing would just be to find a new writers group.

Perhaps there are other ways we can use Fe as a powerful incentive to get stuff done? I am not talking about embracing the Fe 'inferior grip' (i.e. trying to be a talk show host or something like that) but just using a little bit of Fe as a carrot to nudge ourselves forward.

In the long term I would like to be driven by the more altruistic type of Fe that @Pyropyro and @Architect mentioned above. Any ideas on how to make that transition?

 

[Mithrandir]

I've thought about this quite a bit over the years, so I'll share a few of my own insights regarding perceived laziness in INTPs.

In a school setting, like in your example, I was personally never motivated by grades or any documents that publicly acknowledge achievement. My own sense and knowledge of achievement (or lack thereof) has always been enough for me. Sure, recognition of achievement often feels good, but that is rarely my underlying motivation for doing something. Good social feelings are more like candy to me than anything substantial.

So as a result, I would naturally do homework or pay attention in class until I figured out the underlying pattern, at which point it seemed pointless to go on. I could use this pattern to synthesize answers on tests, but would often fail to complete homework or turn it in at all. For example, in my math classes, I could ace tests just by merely utilizing intuition and logic without memorizing specific formulas and techniques, so I was notoriously bad about turning in my math homework. I just didn't care cause I could figure it out when I needed to.

I think one of the factors for this is my self-reliant nature. I almost always prefer synthesizing my own methods of doing things over adopting the method of someone else. Sometimes it's because I think my method is superior, but most of the time it's just how I operate by default without questioning it. It probably stems from the fact that when I use intuition and logic to create something, it leaves a tangible "paper trail" I can follow back to the source of "why?" I should do it that way. I cannot always follow that trail when it originates from someone else, so I naturally distrust it.

So what this inevitably leads to is the accumulation of a lot of time in completing tasks, due to the fact that I rarely adopt predetermined methods ahead of time. I was almost always the last one to finish tests, because I spent half the time creating my own methods to obtain the answers. It takes me forever to finish a project, because I spend half the time creating the method by which it will be finished.

But due to the fact that I am creating my own methods, I end up expending a lot more energy in the same tasks that other people are able do quickly. The main difference is that I can explain why I did what I did every step of the way, because of my own "paper trail" of logic.

That it takes me longer to do the same tasks is externally perceived as lazy, typically. But from my perspective, doing a task quickly because you adopted an external method is mentally lazy, and ultimately boring. I fundamentally abhor activities that require mindless action, such as shoveling snow or mowing the lawn, so when I do these activities I usually approach it mentally, trying to figure out optimal paths and methods to what I'm doing. This usually enables me to stay on task, but there's really only so many ways you can think about these simple tasks until you want to put yourself out of the misery. (Mowing the grass is especially hard for me to do since to me it represents man's propensity to impose its will and dominion upon nature. But this moral objection typically gets overridden by my cost-analysis of upsetting my neighbors by forgoing the social convention.)

Fundamentally, I need a valid reason to do something. If you can explain that reason, and I find it valid, I will then consider if it is worth doing myself. I am pretty much the poster child for "rules without reason lead to rebellion." If you try to make me do something without a valid reason to do so, I will push back. How much I push back depends on how well I restrain myself, which I get better at as I get older. My reluctance to do things without a valid reason is usually perceived as laziness, cause I rarely feel obligated to explain my objections to people. I inherently don't like to expend energy in tasks I find pointless. I often view this as a flaw in myself.

Come on, this subject has been gone over again and again already, there's nothing new here. Ne fucks with INTPs but INTPs are fucked without Ne, solution: balanced application of Ne. Great. Except balance isn't in Ne's nature. Can't eat the cake and have it too.

I really dislike the suppression of intelligent discussion in the name of a "been there, done that" attitude, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I don't know anything about you and have a lot of respect for INFJs.

Perhaps what you haven't considered is that in the face of what you see as a dead end, that there is no sure-fire solution to INTP laziness (which is very likely true), you are shutting yourself out to the actual solution, which is the INTP sharing of their own life experiences, insights, and advice, so that we can analyze our own tendencies and behaviors in a fresh light, in the ongoing pursuit of each discovering a solution unto themselves. From that perspective, a discussion like this should never ever be discouraged or deemed pointless, regardless of how many times it has occurred before.

 

[Architect]

In the long term I would like to be driven by the more altruistic type of Fe that @Pyropyro and @Architect mentioned above. Any ideas on how to make that transition?

Find work that you like that has the potential for helping 'humanity' (in the large), not 'people' (in the small). For example, working in the services industry would be helping people - not a good choice. Working in engineering, developing new technology, is helping 'humanity' - is a good choice.

Services industry includes law, medicine, and all the various blue collar service jobs. There you are helping individuals. The best for an INTP in this regards would be medical research, but I have known people in that field and found it to be primarily ST and NTJ. Perhaps not a good fit.

Engineering is also TJ heavy, but there is a high dose of INTP's (much higher than what you find in the general population). Best of all technology helps humanity in the large

It may be the warriors who get the glory. But it's the engineers who build societies.

 

[computerhxr]

Architect,

You should look into Extreme Programming. They have designed many tools that INTPs can use to their advantage. Just try to imagine how you can apply computer programming concepts to your day-to-day life.

I use a technique called "rubber-ducking" that helps develop the external thinking part of the brain. You basically explain your idea to a rubber duck so that you can elaborate ideas externally. When you internally think of ideas, they are not evaluated consciously. This is just a method to evaluate your ideas consciously instead of relying on your abstract beliefs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging

I modified it to be more useful to me as an INTP. Instead of bouncing ideas off of an inanimate object like a rubber duck, you internalize the situation to be a virtual rubber duck. I imagine that I'm in an interview and I'm answering questions on an idea, or that I'm a college professor explaining them to students, and I answer any questions that they have. It allows me to practice externalizing in a safe environment so that I build confidence in the real world. It has a positive affirmation effect built into it so you will feel more natural being extroverted.

Essentially, this forum is a virtual rubber duck. We are all bouncing ideas off of each other to help improve our own understanding. Also, it allows us to strengthen our external thinking skills. After participating in this forum for just a few days, I have dramatically improved my model of the universe. I feel like that has given me a better understanding of the universe and how things work.

I realize that this isn't exactly useful in the teacher/assignment situation but it may help you come up with other ideas. In either case, rubber ducking is helpful for any INTP so I think everyone should try it if they hit a roadblock in their mind. It's a great way to get through writers block by explaining your story to a ducky. It's great practice, and it helps build confidence. It has the same effects as positive affirmations and allows you to fake-it until you make it internally, and externally. It also helps you get over the embarrassment of talking to yourself.

Poetry therapy uses a similar technique. You pick and emotion and write about what something like "anger" might "look like". For example, "anger" might look like a high-school bully. This allows you to externalize emotions so that you can evaluate them without attachment. It's not your feeling; it's just poetry about that feeling. This allows you to improve your feeling intelligence.

 

[Architect]

You should look into Extreme Programming.

I tried and rejected XP probably about the time or before you were born. It had a short life in the industry at any rate. The only worse approach I've seen is Pair Programming. Pomodero, XP, PP, Agile, Rubber Ducky Whatever are all tricks that may work for a while but not in the long term, in my experience. The Force needs to come from within.

 

[computerhxr]

I tried and rejected XP probably about the time or before you were born. It had a short life in the industry at any rate. The only worse approach I've seen is Pair Programming. Pomodero, XP, PP, Agile, Rubber Ducky Whatever are all tricks that may work for a while but not in the long term, in my experience. The Force needs to come from within.

I explained how to internalize the process of rubber-ducking. You are having problems, and your solution is to avoid the problem and blame it on everyone else. If you get all of your answers internally, then what are you doing here? I guess it's your choice to live in a small, close-minded world that exists inside your own brain. That's fine by me, but there's no point in replying to any of your posts if you aren't open to outside ideas.

Good luck!

 

[Cherry Cola]

I really dislike the suppression of intelligent discussion in the name of a "been there, done that" attitude, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I don't know anything about you and have a lot of respect for INFJs.

Perhaps what you haven't considered is that in the face of what you see as a dead end, that there is no sure-fire solution to INTP laziness (which is very likely true), you are shutting yourself out to the actual solution, which is the INTP sharing of their own life experiences, insights, and advice, so that we can analyze our own tendencies and behaviors in a fresh light, in the ongoing pursuit of each discovering a solution unto themselves. From that perspective, a discussion like this should never ever be discouraged or deemed pointless, regardless of how many times it has occurred before.

You should give me the benefit of doubt because you haven't been there and done that. It's not my attitude, everything in the OP appeared at least 15 times in the ask Architect thread. Consider that repeatedly tackling INTPs issues from one particular angle may blind you to others.

 

[dark+matters]

http://youtu.be/WKOgJbgGAfo?t=17m20s

I think this video by NF Geeks and brain researcher, Dario Nardi, has a great explanation for INTP affectations of laziness. (Skip ahead to 17 minutes and 20 seconds!)

 

[Jungle]

Find work that you like that has the potential for helping 'humanity' (in the large), not 'people' (in the small).

That makes sense. I guess the challenge is that humanistic causes will generally require a long-term, iterative approach. We need to find the discipline to stick with one thing until it really starts to bear fruit. So it is a bit of a Catch 22. Maybe we can use 'short term personal Fe' as a stepping stone to reach 'long term humanistic Fe'?

For example, a writers group can give me a series of short term personal incentives to work towards the long term goal of creating a major work that has a wider social impact. Eventually I will become wired in to the long term goal and I won't need the personal Fe so much.

I imagine that I'm in an interview and I'm answering questions on an idea, or that I'm a college professor explaining them to students, and I answer any questions that they have.

Yes! I have been doing this type of thing every day for a few years. I am not using it as a motivation technique though - mostly it is more like an addiction. It is Fe gone wild. It doesn't help with actually being motivated to do work in the classical sense of sitting down at a computer and producing something - in fact it is my number one enemy when trying to focus on that type of work.

But it is a brilliant tool for learning new things (which I guess could also be seen as a type of work if you have a useful application for that knowledge). This is actually the main way I have been learning MBTI. I imagine I am talking to a particular personality type and explaining how their functional stack works. I even imagine myself drawing a chart on a whiteboard or on the back of a napkin.

This reinforces the idea that Fe is the underlying incentive that INTPs use to achieve things (even if it is entirely hypothetical Fe as in this case). These daydreams have allowed me to memorize (and form tentative opinions on) the functional stacks of all 16 types within a couple of weeks. I am sure I could have taken them on board more quickly by doing a cram session, but by letting Ti play a part in the process it seems like the information is more genuinely locked in and ready for action in the future.

But due to the fact that I am creating my own methods, I end up expending a lot more energy in the same tasks that other people are able do quickly. The main difference is that I can explain why I did what I did every step of the way, because of my own "paper trail" of logic.

You might be selling yourself short when you say that the main difference is in your ability to show your workings. By incorporating Ti, you have probably achieved a more nuanced understanding of how all the components fit together.

It seems the challenge is to find a way of leveraging this extra understanding so that you have not wasted your time by taking a longer route to the destination. Perhaps you would have a greater ability to use these mathematical systems as platforms to solve more complex problems in the future, whereas some of your classmates would not be able to make that leap.

 

[Jungle]

http://youtu.be/WKOgJbgGAfo?t=17m20s

I think this video by NF Geeks and brain researcher, Dario Nardi, has a great explanation for INTP affectations of laziness. (Skip ahead to 17 minutes and 20 seconds!)

Interesting. So basically Ne is so intense that it will read like an ongoing electrical storm on a brain scan.

 

[Architect]

but there's no point in replying to any of your posts if you aren't open to outside ideas.

Don't take offense. You don't know my back story being new. I don't have problems with it, I work about 12 hours a day. I'm more concerned for my INTP son which is why I research the INTP 'condition', which this post is the result of.

 

[Architect]

You should give me the benefit of doubt because you haven't been there and done that. It's not my attitude, everything in the OP appeared at least 15 times in the ask Architect thread. Consider that repeatedly tackling INTPs issues from one particular angle may blind you to others.

Cherry's one of the good guys. Being an INFJ they can't help the occasional application of caustic soap and salt

 

[Architect]

http://youtu.be/WKOgJbgGAfo?t=17m20s

I think this video by NF Geeks and brain researcher, Dario Nardi, has a great explanation for INTP affectations of laziness. (Skip ahead to 17 minutes and 20 seconds!)

Interesting. So basically Ne is so intense that it will read like an ongoing electrical storm on a brain scan.

Not necessarily, he was talking about Ne dominants not Ne auxiliaries, where it may operate in a different manner. Ne is in opposition to Ti, being extraverted, which is why it is aux and suppressed, or ignored. On the other hand, taking a step back I agree with the idea, and it's more or less another way of looking at what we discussed above.

I'm curious to see what he publishes with his research, considering that he appears to have a good working knowledge of MBTI including the functions.