A new game paradigm?

[Cognisant]

The protagonist in just about any game goes out and finds trouble, the bad guy stays in his castle until you get in there and confront him, even in the "wilderness" of Fallout 3 or Skyrim the onus is upon you to stumble upon monsters, the wolves don't stalk you... although the dragons seem to, oh man I have dragon related post traumatic stress, they were out to fucking get me.

Well anyway that's a good thing, I distinctly remember cowering beneath a log while the big scary dragon circled overhead (just like that LotRs scene)(to be fair this was before I figured out being able to take damage is more important than giving it) and I think it was the proactive nature of the event that really struck me. Even in action/adventure and FPS games the enemy assault/ambush doesn’t happen until you cross an invisible line, if you pay attention it quickly becomes apparent that the whole in game world is reacting to you, indeed it won't act unless you permit it to.

So here's my idea, lets say there's a mod for Skyrim whereby there's no special starting sequence, instead your character is a local young adult who is just now leaving home (an orphanage perhaps) and setting out to begin a new life. It could be anything but let’s say you wish to become a necromancer, this presents several problems, you need to buy/steal books about magic, quire resources (i.e. dead things) and you'll need a place to store all this stuff. Since you're only just starting out you can't afford to buy a house, certainly not a big one with a suitable basement for your experiments, so you pack up your sleeping roll and go off to find yourself a nice cave.

You're not powerful, you're not dangerous, you don't level up every five minutes and you can't go hand-to-hand with half a dozen wolves and expect to come out on top, heck even with a decent sword one wolf is more than a challenge. You're the poor little shit-kicker the adventurer walks in on and slays without a second thought, the world is out to get you and the only thing in your favour is that you're too insignificant for anyone to really give a shit about.

So when a bandit discovers you in your little lair what do you do?

You do what any normal person does, you get down and beg pathetically for him to spare your life, he beats you a bit then you watch helplessly as he takes what precious little you have, leaving only what loot he considers beneath him, then you whimper as he tells you he'll be back in a month to collect "rent". Now this is where the game gets interesting, you didn't ask for this, this problem walked in your cave and kicked you in the face so what are you going to do?

Are you going to move to another cave, hopefully one even further from civilisation? Maybe you will barricade the entrance to this one and dig a little hole you can use to sneak in and out? Or are you going to watch the bandit from a distance, find out where he sleeps, then slit his throat in the night? But that's risky, there may be other bandits, not to mention wolves nearby (they're active at night) maybe instead you'll set traps or an ambush in your cave, a couple of simple short-term wolf skeletons should even the odds enough...

Basically as the game progresses and you gather resources and magical power you also attract attention to yourself, initially only the lowliest scum will half-heartedly give you a hard time, but eventually word will spread of the infamous necromancer who lives up in mountains and it'll become increasingly difficult to defend yourself. So you may decide to move into town, buy a house with a basement or just a small one and conduct your research outside of town, then the game changes, it's less about active defences and more about upholding the masquerade. As you work to increase your social standing you make enemies and as more and more people go missing (or are found dead) the townspeople become more suspicious, which you may or may not be able to work to your advantage. Eventually through guile and ruthlessness you somehow become thane of the town, now the game changes yet again, now it's your town and you get to do what you want with it, but the other thanes may not like you, some diplomacy is in order, or maybe you'll raise an army instead.

The beauty of this is that you started off as nobody, bullied by everyone and everything, so when you reach those higher "levels" the tables are turned and you can have your revenge, meanwhile the game world is constantly resisting you, constantly trying push you back down, by the time you're a thane there's assassins out to kill you and nobles conspiring against you, not to mention political factions that may invade your city outright if they hear to much of your dabbling in the dark arts.

Finally the greatest challenge comes to you, the special guy, the chosen one, the hero....

 

[Cognisant]

I'm so sick of being the hero in games, even if they let me be an anti-hero it's all the same, and what's worst about it is that I'm never surprised, when I walk into an abandoned temple I have my weapon drawn because I KNOW there's enemies just around the corner, and that sickens me, I know they're just there to get in my way, I don't care about fighting them, who they are and where they came from or what they want is of complete irrelevance to me.

Whereas with the bandit I mentioned earlier, I care where he came from and what he wants, he has a name and it's a name I carve into my cave wall with a bloody dagger, because I hate him and when I kill him I'm going to enjoy ripping out his soul and keeping it in a gem, I may even have that gem put into an amulet and wear that amulet for the rest of my character's life because it has sentimental value.

And as a thane if an assassin comes to kill me, it's not just an enemy, this assassin is an opportunity I must capture him alive so I can interrogate him, find out who he... oh it's a she, well who is she, where is she from, who does she work for, why do they want me dead, are there other assassins, and loads of other questions, it may take weeks of torture but that's okay

But lets not forget the beautiful thing about assassin attacks, they come when you least expect them, so I have to be constantly on guard, even from the very start of the game there's not telling what's going to happen to me, I just don't know and that's fantastic!

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Wow. If a game/mod like this were created....

I love this idea. The whole concept goes against common and traditional method of gameplay. You start as a hero and go kill a bad guy, which has become cliche and annoying. The idea that you're a nobody AND that danger can come to you at any second are great. Also what you said about dungeons. Every dungeon I come to I begin sneaking and ready my bow because I know there's a draugr or bandit right around the corner. I don't care why they're there or why they want to attack me, but I know that, without fail, it is in my way and it will attack me no matter what.

I'd definitely be very interested if anything like this were to be created.

 

[Stoic Beverage]

That sounds delightful in every way, especially because becoming a master necromancer has always been a dream of mine...
Yet, I don't think a big game maker would ever pick up on that, just because it's too far out of the range of "things guaranteed to sell", so you'd probably never get something like that that looks as pretty as Skyrim.
Hell, the only way I could see something of this depth happening is if some random guy decided to undertake it in ASCII form. It'd still be awesome, though.

If some random game programmer stumbles across this thread and decides to try to make this, I would be glad to give that good sir/madam a high five.

 

[Cognisant]

Well now don't be so hasty, if this mod were to be made and it proved to be popular then it's quite likely that developers will take notice of it. Especially since this sort of gameplay dosen't involve so much traveling around, which means less content is required, a fifth of Skyrim would be more than sufficient to make a game that could potentially last just as long and have so much more emotional depth.

Personally I have never completed some quests and I never will, they're tiresome and I feel like I'm just checking off points on a to-do list, and those quests that do have some story to them are fairly boring too because my involvement in the story is that of the outsider, these people don't care about who I am and don't care about them, I just want them to tell me what to do so I can do it and take their gold.

 

[Amagi82]

Your ideas are good, and you're totally right about the hero thing- it's so overplayed and contrived these days, I loathe it. I love games that let me play the bad guy- I'm a good guy in real life, so a game is the perfect outlet for the darker side of my personality. I want consequences, as you mentioned I'd have. I think it's ridiculous how games have combat every 2 seconds, that you cannot avoid. I hate how you have "levels", or anything resembling them.

Here's what I want to see (in combination with many of your above ideas):

I want to see a combination of a Kinect-style interface and one of those new brainwave-reading interface devices. You can learn to cast spells, which involve both a physical hand movement and you imagining the spell with your mind. For example, to cast a fireball, you'd have to combine moving your hand like you have a ball of fire growing it in, while simultaneously imagining the fire growing in intensity and being released at your foe. There can be hundreds of possible spells, and they're all controlled by different thoughts and hand movements, and your skill as a human player at learning these spells dictates how well they function in-game.

You can also swing swords, which you do Kinect-style with your hands, and your actual human skill at blocking and striking cause your success or injury/death.

I also want death to be permanent. "Lives", "game saves", and MMO-style running back to your body to rez are stupid. Combat should be infrequent, but scary.

 

[Czech Yes or No]

Real life mod.

 

[warryer]

^ Yea that's what I was thinking... Sounds a lot like real life. That is if real life had necromancers (necrophiliacs?).

I think the grand theft auto series attempts to do what you are describing..... somewhat. A rise to power story. It's also the reason why stories like Gladiator and Scarface are so good.

Why not skip the video games and try it out in real life? With video games you always have the out of "it's not real" same with movies and books. You can't be fully invested in a story if you know you don't face any real consequences.

 

[Mello]

It sounds like a game with actual A.I.s.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Interesting idea; you described it pretty vividly. I think it's probably easier said than done(it sounds pretty good though), though I would like to see a demo video of such a game.

 

[Cognisant]

It sounds like a game with actual A.I.s.

Pfft, game AI is incredibly simple, indeed the AI is often dumbed down because the sort of tactics any half witted player uses aren't sporting, seriously has it never occurred to you that archers just stand there as you rush up to them, and warriors won't even try to sidestep your attacks; a couple of bandits could easily overwhelm you if instead of standing there like morons or rushing at you they held their position defensively (the warrior possibly protecting the archer with his shield) and then flanked you as you got close (so the archer could stab/shoot you in the back).

The script for those behaviours is shorter than the paragraph I just wrote.

I want to see a combination of a Kinect-style interface and one of those new brainwave-reading interface devices. You can learn to cast spells, which involve both a physical hand movement and you imagining the spell with your mind. For example, to cast a fireball, you'd have to combine moving your hand like you have a ball of fire growing it in, while simultaneously imagining the fire growing in intensity and being released at your foe. There can be hundreds of possible spells, and they're all controlled by different thoughts and hand movements, and your skill as a human player at learning these spells dictates how well they function in-game.

You can also swing swords, which you do Kinect-style with your hands, and your actual human skill at blocking and striking cause your success or injury/death.

Okay now that's way ahead of its time.

Awesome though

I also want death to be permanent. "Lives", "game saves", and MMO-style running back to your body to rez are stupid. Combat should be infrequent, but scary.

Ages ago I came up with what I call the "lineage" system, whereby if a character dies the player has to create a new one. But this is not a punishment because the player's "past life" potentially affects the new character they're about to create, for example if your first character was a necromancer the second will be the son/daughter of that necromancer.

So when creating this character you get to choose one of three perks, the Dead Friends perk means your character was raised around the dead and as such has developed a sort of knack for dealing with them (the undead only bother getting up to attack you if you attack them first, make lots of noise or otherwise defile/disturb their crypt, but will attack anyone else on sight), whereas the Deathly Trauma perk means the character was traumatised by the undead as a child and has a particular fear/hatred of them (killing the undead earns experience points, or whatever, much faster than usual). The third option is a perk from the "other parent", so if the necromancer hooked up with a merchant there will be a bartering perk, if it was a solider then a combat perk will be available, if the necromancer got around there may be a whole list of perks to choose from, but you can only pick one.

The idea is that end of one character’s story sets up the beginning of the next one, and there’s various carry on effects from this, your character may start off with money if your previous character put money in a trust fund for them, there may even be a deed for property (you can buy that property again at a 50% discounted price), then there’s sentimental stuff like seeking out the predecessor’s bow/sword/stave/armour (which will have acquired an “ancestor enchantment” that becomes more powerful every time it’s passed from one generation to the next). With this sort of thing the Elder Scrolls bizarre levelling system actually makes sense, as you level the game gets harder (tries harder to kill you) because the stuff you potentially pass on to the next generation will be more powerful.

Also accounting for this is the bad stuff that gets passed on such as your reputation (if your character’s parent was a mass murdering psychopath people will be a lot less accommodating, though intimidation will be easier; likewise a positive reputation will have the opposite effect) and sworn enemies (who will kill you no matter what, even if you kill them, even if you die from something else, sworn enemies and their lineage will not stop hunting you until they’ve killed one of your characters, or several if you REALLY pissed them off).

And so on and so forth.
I could go on all night but I think you get the idea.

 

[Ptah]

Grand Theft Auto isn't far off.

 

[Mello]

By actual A.I. I meant sentient beings within the game. ;p

 

[Jennywocky]

It sounds like a game with actual A.I.s.

yes, i think the reason the "hack and slash" adventure is so common is because it is far far easier to program.

The kind of game being described in the first few posts is more interesting, but affordable AI is still being developed to handle that kind of complexity. Also, there's a variety of gamers, and not all want to invest the time required to develop a character from scratch. MMOs base part of their popularity on the ease of learning and the quick leveling until you get to higher levels.

 

[Amagi82]

Okay now that's way ahead of its time.

Awesome though

The thing is, all the technology necessary for a game like that exists now. All we need is a software company willing to tackle it.

Also, I like your lineage idea. That's a reasonable compromise between death being pointless and "you're fucked".

 

[Cognisant]

I see it in terms of storytelling, the end of one story is the beginning of another, so although as you're playing one character you really don't want the story to end, when it does end there should be a moment of loss (like in the Hitman games where 47 slowly falls over and bleeds out) but after this comes acceptance, the acceptance that stories need endings, that only now you can sit back and thing "did I live?", then the story continues from the view of another, the world has changed, the child you met in a village has grown up and the old man you spoke to in the store is gone.

Originally the idea was for an MMO in which there was no levelling system at all, instead it works like the real world where one tries to increase their wealth, influence and social standing, the basic idea being to really get the most out of player-to-player interaction. Death would mean more than a loss of points, it would be the end of battles, the fall of empires, the result of a duel gone bad, and most importantly it would mean saying goodbye. If a character dies everything that tied them to this world would also be lost, so they would start again with a new face, as a new person, somewhere else far away from everything and everyone they once knew, they have lost their friend but in doing so gained an opportunity to make new ones.

I don't like how games babysit players in homeostatic worlds.

That's what I like about Halo, when the gun ran out of ammo you'd drop it and pick up a new one, you mourned the loss of a sniper rifle or carried it with you (despite the lack of ammo) as if it were a child to precious to abandon but a liability all the same, the pain was beautiful.