7 LEVELS OF INTP

[LOGICZOMBIE]

㊙️ 道可道 非常道​

LOGICZOMBIE — Today at 6:57 AM​

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level one INTP: when i was a child, i thought i was an idiot - the world didn't make any sense to me, but i was told "you'll understand when you get older" - although i did explore internally, i had every question rebuffed and i figured i'd "try again later" - although, for example, i remember being five years old, standing on a wooden stool in front of the bathroom sink, staring into the mirror, trying to look inside myself, and i came to the realization that i was a robot that looked exactly like a human, and or functionally indistinguishable from a robot who looked exactly like a human

[7:02 AM]​

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level two INTP: as i got older i thought there was some trove of knowledge that every "adult" knew and someday someone would "clue me in" - my family was highly religious, but their religion didn't make any sense to me, i would ask questions like, "if god is all powerful, why does it need worshipers ?" - "especially when it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that you have to go to church every sunday" - and stuff like that, i was expected to take their responses at face-value, like "we worship god out of appreciation, to show respect" but that didn't make any sense to me either - but i figured that was because i was still too young and idiotic

LOGICZOMBIE — Today at 7:41 AM​

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level three INTP: eventually i had my first epiphany - nobody gives a shit about my feelings or my questions, so shut the fuck up and earn money and have fun - this worked amazingly for about ten years - the world generally still didn't make any sense beyond my specific interests, but i still figured that someone would come along at some point and clue me in - or at least one of my friends would figure it all out and let me know

LOGICZOMBIE — Today at 7:53 AM​

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level four INTP: after watching a movie "waking life" i got a little obsessed with a question presented in the film, "do you think more people are motivated by greed or fear ?" - this question kept rattling around for a few months and i started to see greed and fear everywhere, everything seemed so simple, then i met a friend of a friend and for the first time, they answered my questions with MORE QUESTIONS about my questions - and i had answers and they had answers and even though we had just met, i felt like the universe just exploded - we talked until the sun came up - and i thought i had a new best friend - but the next week when i went back to talk some more, they had no comments, it was like they'd reverted back to a "normie" and when i asked my friend, what the hell happened, they told me "oh, you just caught them when they were really really drunk last time and they get really talkative when they're drunk" - anyway - a bunch of stuff happened after that - i had like a hundred epiphanies, maybe two or three a day for weeks on end, culminating in "the event" - which was basically a rebirth - i now "knew what was going on" - finally

[7:59 AM]​

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level five INTP: now that i knew everything, of course, i wanted to tell everyone, and i do mean everyone - but i kept running into roadblocks - so i figured i just needed to organize my thoughts, you know systemize the path, build a bridge from "normie town" to "omverata" - or multiples bridges - like maybe a hundred or two hundred bridges - but of course i needed to start somewhere, so i wrote a seven part "theory of human behavior" - and people liked it, but it didn't have the effect i was expecting - and my closest friends and family members told me i really needed to shut the fuck up because i was scaring people and they thought i was trying to become some kind of cult leader or something - which is basically the opposite of what i was trying to do - but i eventually shut the fuck up

LOGICZOMBIE — Today at 8:40 AM​

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level six INTP: i just waited, reverted back to earn money and have fun - but every once in a while, i'd meet someone who had an idea they thought was interesting, but there was always some limit - i figured out that there were "unspoken rules" to conversation that most people would only mention after they had "reached their limit" - this is where i re-evaluated MBTI - and i identified myself as INTP - and i discovered that INTP and ENTP love to debate and don't generally lean in any particular political or philosophical direction - so i joined debate.org - and learned a lot about formal debate - and the limits and logical contradictions of the format - so i fixed those - but only a few people were interested in fixing formal debate - but i still found a few people interested in informal debate who generally intuitively followed the three rules of civil debate - i thought i had finally "found the others" - but one by one they became "black-pilled" and stopped talking, stopped exploring ideas, at least externally - we'd hit some topic and they'd eject themselves from the interaction - INTPs are "big game", very introspective and very difficult to get talking and even harder to convince of anything because they've usually mapped out their own personal "framework" in great detail (often with inscrutable special language) - and this ejecting from the conversation thing was frustrating, but i still had a small handful of interlocutors - and adjusted my goal to find - one logiczombie per year - and i was meeting that target

LOGICZOMBIE — Today at 9:05 AM​

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level seven INTP: i figured out that mass communication, a book, a movie, a show, is never going to achieve what i'm looking for - at BEST you end up with a "cult of personality" which might develop into a religion or a quasi-religion - and plenty of people have done that already and it doesn't work - i'm not "the" logiczombie, i'm simply "a" logiczombie - i have no unique or special abilities or talents or status of any kind - i just have an idea - so then i figured out that one-on-one communication is the only option here - and humans can only know, or only have even the slightest chance to "know" maybe four people in their entire lifetime - so, i'd like to find four, and turn that into a four-way-conversation, but first things first, i need to find one - and as a side-note, i now understand why people who reach this level often eject from the conversation - people only value things they "discover" "on their own" "at their own pace" - so i need to follow someone, be receptive, test them gently, and wait

7 LEVELS OF INTP

㊙️ 道可道 非常道

logiczombie.substack.com

7 LEVELS OF INTP — Blurt

㊙️ 道可道 非常道 by logiczombie

blurtlatam.intinte.org

 

[Black Rose]

You found one of your kind, that is good.

I wish I found someone like myself(maybe @birdsnestfern )

"That group" told me INFPs are failed INTPs and I should be INFP instead.

They were right but also I am a failed INTJ as well.

I am not in total agreement that INFPs are robots/normies but I'd be open to seeing what you think @LOGICZOMBIE

Yes, right now I am trying to be honest about how I make money.

And also I do believe in a "religion". Cults don't match my INFP ways though.

Adults are fun to be around if you can find them just like you looking for fellow INTPs.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I am not in total agreement that INFPs are robots/normies but I'd be open to seeing what you think @LOGICZOMBIE

i realize that i was a lot closer to INFP when i was a kid

but when i decided to "shut-off" (sublimate) my emotions i went full INTP

at this point, even most people who test INTP look more like INFP from my perspective

i'm pretty much 100% on the I the N the T and the P, so much in fact that some INTPs often look like ESFJs to me in most conversations

identifying the traits and tendencies of each type go a long way towards "bridging the gap" for my approach to communication

all types have some INTP traits, and i've had some better success appealing to those traits over time

at this point i am hyper-aware of my emotions

but i choose not to comment on them unless i have a specific goal

 

[Black Rose]

@LOGICZOMBIE

Since you are intp you would have extraverted feeling as the last function.

Usually, Fe takes emotions and exothermic them, Fi is endothermic.

This process is dependent on the hippocampal and frontal-parietal processes along with the temporal lobes and Si somatic systems.

Ti is the central sulcus
Te is parietal frontal

Si is somatic
Ni is anterior cingulate

Se is visual parietal
and Ne is (Somatic cingulate)

INFP have first the endothermic amygdala with temporal sound hippocampal then somatic cingulate Ne - Going into the frontal parietal.

INTP has the central sulcus and somatic cingulate making an exothermic amygdala.

INTJ would be cingulate temporal, frontal-parietal, endothermic amygdala, and visual parietal.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

INTJ would be cingulate temporal, frontal-parietal, endothermic amygdala, and visual parietal.

sounds pretty technical for an INFP


maybe more precisely, i've developed a much higher than average awareness of social dynamics and emotional states

which are areas INTPs generally complain about struggling with

however,

in my interactions

i choose to ignore this information

in other words i don't generally communicate this information

and i don't even telegraph this information (for the most part)

unless there is a specific reason for me to do so

 

[ZenRaiden]

level two INTP: as i got older i thought there was some trove of knowledge that every "adult" knew and someday someone would "clue me in"

the world generally still didn't make any sense beyond my specific interests,

I seriously had this same issue. I was always trusting adults, thinking they got some source or something. Grew up and realized they all fucking winging it lol.
Making sense of stuff is the ultimate drive of our minds, but sometimes even the bwains lack traction.

but i still figured that someone would come along at some point and clue me in - or at least one of my friends would figure it all out and let me know

Nowdays I tend to look at it as a challenge. We don't know? Well we might know?
I guess more juice for INTP minds.

"do you think more people are motivated by greed or fear ?"

That is interesting question. As young person I rarely asked this.
I was actually more basic, asking questions like how do people become friends, or how they can talk, how people play, or what is humor.
I felt like many things people did naturally came to me as laborious tasks, sometimes confusing, or to be endured.

, i wanted to tell everyone

Every time I know something, that might be interesting, I assume everyone wants to know. Working with people I learned that most people don't care about much more than what is in front of them. Being that life is often difficult I understand this.
But I honestly get so bored when day after day the conversation is the same exact thing.

but i eventually shut the fuck up

Unfortunately this is common occurrence. Id say most people just simply don't give a darn. When you are excited things just seem so much more real.

INTPs are "big game", very introspective and very difficult to get talking and even harder to convince of anything because they've usually mapped out their own personal "framework" in great detail (often with inscrutable special language) - and this ejecting from the conversation thing was frustrating, but i still had a small handful of interlocutors - and adjusted my goal to find - one logiczombie per year - and i was meeting that target

I often like to talk to people, because I am afraid I missed something, and my framework is just a ossified trap. I rather be wrong now, then wrong all my life.
Being wrong for INTPs is sometimes painful, but being INTP we get hit by the truth so often. Its our karma to know, and to be correct, its like a duty we, have to abide by. I say dumb shit all the time though, but I know once chaos settles, and the sediments are clear, there has to be something that is as reliable as principal, or fact.

people only value things they "discover" "on their own" "at their own pace" - so i need to follow someone, be receptive, test them gently, and wait

There is truth in this, but I think its more about investment and being tuned in to the same radio station.

I feel like it takes time to be on the same wave length.

 

[Black Rose]

Yes, it is technical but I am very comfortable sharing my emotional states as long as I do not hurt others feelings. I just had to create such a model to incorporate the directions of Extraversion and Introversion because I did not understand the brain or Carl Jung's system without it. Dario Nardi was a big help in showing that INFPs use listening as their way of communication. (temporal lobes).

The flat affect Ti shows is consistent with Jung's model of Fe and Fi Chapter 10 Psychological Type. I was very confused by the technical stuff in the book because he is INFJ.

And INFP's are really smart listeners and readers. However, the frontal lobes are the weakest part of the INFP. For example, I got a score of 75 in working memory and processing speed (1 in 25 borderline retardation). These are short-term memory systems INTP and INTJ excel at. The only way I can function is by remembering things through Ne. That is why my social intelligence is extremely high. Social studies was my best subject in school.

I find myself very comfortable around INTPs because they do not make rash extreme judgments about me and facts to them are very important in a neutral way so if I use my words correctly they can see where I am coming from. They will not be offended unless certain logics are contradicted in their minds.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I rather be wrong now, then wrong all my life.

bingo

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Its our karma to know, and to be correct, its like a duty we, have to abide by.

CRITIQUE = RESPECT

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I feel like it takes time to be on the same wave length.

welcome to thought club

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

They will not be offended unless certain logics are contradicted in their minds.

they will react strongly to logical contradiction

and often people mistake that for "offended"

but they won't actually be offended

as long as you avoid any and all ad hominem attacks and appeals to emotion

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I just had to create such a model to incorporate the directions of Extraversion and Introversion

perhaps my model is over-simplified

I vs E - - I = more internal self-worth - - E = more external self-worth

N vs S - - N = prefers exploring ideas - - S = prefers exploring people and places

T vs F - - T = prefers logic - - F = prefers "common sense" and e.motion

P vs J - - P = prefers exploring all ideas - - J = follows a preset or prevailing rule

 

[Black Rose]

I understand that appeal to emotion is something that INTP has a hard time understanding but if you can see that emotions are part of evolution to survive no matter what then they make sense for creating the world a person wishes to be in. There is a reason they exist so I would like you to see what happens when two INTPs clash emotionally in this video over what they care about. If this is not something you are interested in you can decide if it is something worth your time but I believe it is.

Kobayashi-san Chi no Maid Dragon - Tohru vs Father​

 

[ZenRaiden]

CRITIQUE = RESPECT

Yeah.

welcome to thought club

Yes.

 

[Black Rose]

I am not in total agreement that INFPs are robots/normies but I'd be open to seeing what you think @LOGICZOMBIE

at this point i am hyper-aware of my emotions

but i choose not to comment on them unless i have a specific goal

This was a great movie (I saw it when it came out) but the second movie got repetitive.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I understand that appeal to emotion is something that INTP has a hard time understanding

HUMAN TRASH — Blurt

I used to be pro-Palestinian. I thought Israel was wrong for carpet bombing Gaza and using siege warfare on civilians. But then I ran into a very wise Israel apologist who changed my way of… by logiczombie

blurtlatam.intinte.org

i'll add more detail in a bit

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

You found one of your kind, that is good.

i'm currently in communication with an ESFJ who has built their own moral framework and i encourage and support them, but they're not great at critique and bristle at the mere scent of "constructive criticism" - - but i love people who build their own castle - - their views revolve around self-sovereignty and stigmergy - basically all evil is caused by approximately 3% of the population who are certifiable psychopaths, they generate tons of content on multiple blogs and post a significant number of videos (with a respectable following)

i'm also in communication with an INFJ who has built their own language and metaphysical framework - a big fan of buckminster fuller - who also happens to be a rabid pro-vax mandate, pro-dog, anti-cat, anti-anarchist, orange man bad sort of individual - but they maintain consistent communication regardless of our disagreements, which i definitely respect

another example is an ENFP who is a rabid maga fan, and religious - but is surprisingly unphased by my scathing critiques (and often receptive) - they also generate tons of content on multiple blogs and post videos almost daily - loves to talk about, and has a deep knowledge of, movies and shows

so,

not really 100% INTP

thought club accepts all types

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

emotions are part of evolution to survive no matter what then they make sense for creating the world a person wishes to be in

sure, and those emotions are still fundamentally causal reflexes and therefore logical

the clip was very interesting

the father isn't prioritizing the "wishes" of the daughter

but clearly, they are responsible for thousands if not millions of other lives

and probably some significant number of other children even

i think it's significant that the daughter doesn't ever EXPLAIN why she wants to live in the human world

she basically just DECLARES that's what she wants

the friend ends up doing all the explaining

it also brings up some interesting points about broader consequences (violation of protocol potentially causing a war) and nobody seems to entertain any potential alternatives, like maybe they could both move to some neutral territory or maybe the human could go live in the dragon dimension or something

it's a pretty deep metaphor for inter-class relations or even inter-racial relations or even neither of those things, it could be a situation between rival but roughly equal gangs or kingdoms

the parent is trying to "talk some sense" into their daughter

i don't think the father is INTP

you really have to wonder how involved they were with their daughters upbringing because simply commanding your children is not exactly an optimal form of "communication" (not to mention the implicit threat of physical violence against both kids)

(this is also coded to reflect the values of the audience, kings and violence rule, instead of stigmergy and voluntarism and uhm, DEMOCRACY)

demanding to get your own way because you simply WANT something (regardless of the consequences)

is not the sign of a mature mind


but once again, i'd blame the father for this

it's ultimately their failure that led to this situation

or maybe it's just a failure of the authoritarian mindset


"damn the consequences" certainly has a romantic appeal

but really, is that the kind of behavior we want to foster on a societal scale ?

 

[Black Rose]

The father's demands must be how he lived from his upbringing also

His responsibility made him look more at what his group needed other than his own family (might be ESTJ)

The daughter has needs to, but is unable to express them because she never had the chance to make her own life decisions and had to follow the dragon's rules her whole life.

Given Japan is authoritarian in the nature of its family structure this is a metaphor for how family is important and how one must believe in themselves or not be able to break the rules is only wrong because one does not understand what it means to be responsible one cannot pass that on to the next generation.

So what matters is not that authority is blindly followed but that one must be given the opportunity to live one's life as it is their life.

Tohru loves Kobayashi-san but her father never thinks that this is true because how can a human understand dragons?​

So if he really cares about his daughter and about the dragon and human world he himself needs to understand his own self more and he must know what it means to love. is it too much to accept that a human can understand dragons or is it more his pride that is at stake. So really he has to find out what the right thing to do is which has many moral qualities the story is trying to convey to the audience.

Can the dragon world survive when in reality there cannot be peace unless the humans and dragons begin to understand one another, what is the conflict that happened between them long ago and why is it not possible in many dragons' mindset? What if they could but the reason is because of such strong disagreements that without this story of a dragon maid and a human, there can never be a resolution to the conflict?

Japan has many many stories like this. It is a theme. brought on by the post-war period after 1945. People began to question what loyalty meant and what it meant to be devoted to authority figures.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Can the dragon world survive when in reality there cannot be peace unless the humans and dragons begin to understand one another, what is the conflict that happened between them long ago and why is it not possible in many dragons' mindset? What if they could but the reason is because of such strong disagreements that without this story of a dragon maid and a human, there can never be a resolution to the conflict?

right,

can christians and muslims "live in harmony" without abandoning their core beliefs ?

simply because of the timescales involved (not to mention the massive disparity in physical strength and magical abilities)

i don't think humans and dragons could ever be "equals"

at best, the human would be some kind of "beloved pet"

 

[ZenRaiden]

dragon vs human, to me this seems allegory of mindset.
Power struggle vs empowerment.
Ultimate family issue in modern world.
BE LAWYER, BE DOCTOR, OR GTFO.
What a boring world.
Most overrated professions anyway. Long hours, no pay, all work and no play.
The perks dismal.
Asians are smart and have good work ethic, but they are shooting themselves in the foot with this mindset.
Ultimately they are trading their souls for vocations, that were invented by the western people in 1800s. But in those times when someone was doctor or lawyer they owned a mansion, had large property, even slaves, and had a life long career, and could support their whole family clan. Nowadays you barely make a life for yourself with these professions.

Daddy issues, mommy issues aside, if we look at humans, we were the only ones who did not go extinct, from great homo apes.

So the question is are the dragons united group or divisive.
Bigger and more cohesive groups will always have bigger survivability.
A dragon is strong, but 1000 humans working in union can defeat a dragon.
So even when it comes to power, we ought understand that power relations are always relative, to what specific end they are meant for.

If Intent of dragon father or whatever is to have a dragon realm, and not have dragons in human world, we might ask "what dragons really do".

 

[Black Rose]

If Intent of dragon father or whatever is to have a dragon realm, and not have dragons in human world, we might ask "what dragons really do".

Dragons live 900 to 4,000 years (?)

They think long-term.

They like gold and when humans take their gold they have nothing to eat besides flesh. Dragons sometimes eat humans and humans gang up to stop them. Dragons breed slowly. A book I read said dragons evolved from cats dogs and birds. many kinds exist.

if the dragons are not unified but understand a war may happen they are less likely to do it. Where humans are provoked easily so dragons must keep themselves secret or be attacked.

Some dragons think they could win a war but not the oldest dragons. They saw what had happened in the past.

Dragons also think about time. Where did it come from and why does magic exist?

And love is temporary, when you know someone 2,000 years and they die it is painful.

Humans do not know what it means to have an old soul.

But

Tohru loves Kobayashi​

And dragon love is 200 times more than could be seen in a human. That makes Kobayashi a special human. Kobayashi is more than a pet to Tohru. She is equal.

That is why the father calls her foolish.

No human is equal to a dragon.

But Tohru sees what he does not.

An old soul.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

how to build your own castle

 

[ZenRaiden]

An old soul.

I was thinking in metaphor for real life.
Ergo dragon a strong person.
I think we are derailing this thread to be honest.

how to build your own castle

The vid is unavailable in my country for some reason. Just letting you know, I won't be watching it.
Sometimes I think YT is screwing with people when it does this.

 

[Black Rose]

I think we are derailing this thread to be honest.

I was in the mode of comparing Ti to Fi - I just wanted to show people can be more than robots.

I just had to create such a model to incorporate the directions of Extraversion and Introversion

perhaps my model is over-simplified

I vs E - - I = more internal self-worth - - E = more external self-worth

N vs S - - N = prefers exploring ideas - - S = prefers exploring people and places

T vs F - - T = prefers logic - - F = prefers "common sense" and e.motion

P vs J - - P = prefers exploring all ideas - - J = follows a preset or prevailing rule

A Better Neuro Model of MBTI

INTJ - temporal lobe to cingulate to frontal medial to the amygdala to the visual cortex INTP - frontal sulcus to the temporal cortex to the somatic cortex to the amygdala ISTJ - somatic to medial frontal to temporal to amygdala ISTP - frontal sulcus to visual to temporal to cingulate to...

www.intpforum.com

 

[birdsnestfern]

As a teenager I was also kind of INFP, could be rather emotional and cry at things like crushes and lost loves.
I started to grow more into T at 21 or so. But its funny that INTP's can be quite strong feelers too. So strong sometimes that I have to repress feelings in order not to be weird. Can't disguise weird though. The awkward nerd just comes through.

 

[Black Rose]

Before I realized how random Ne can be and seem to others I thought I was INTJ.

And because of my ADD, I cannot be Ti - Ti works internally so I am more Te.

It simply feels like the front of my brain is not working together.

Ti would be as I imagine, like the ability to sit and think alone on something with no external feedback loop. it would be a closed circuit.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I think we are derailing this thread to be honest.

it's more of a demonstration

 

[ZenRaiden]

I think we are derailing this thread to be honest.

it's more of a demonstration

Some thoughts on this.

I think INTPs, but also all people are subject to developing.
Kind of like photos develop colors and shapes.
We are exposed to life.
Our brains make of life many things.
Our experiences no doubt shape us.
Our existence "human condition" as some call it is unique in some ways.
Some of us are deliberately focused on truth.
Truth is just a word.
What we can to some degree substitute for truth is reality.
The world.
Life it self, etc.
Lots of ways to describe experiences we have in life.
Our minds are just sophisticated organs, called brains, part of body.
They are awareness organs, that sense the dimensions of world feed to us by our sensing.
Ultimately the beauty of our minds is that they allow us to be more aware of certain things, and ourselves and our complex existence in more detail, more color, more shape, more dimensions than say snail brains or other animals that have just few neurons that can barely keep track of the moment to moment things.

SO we set out in life with curiosity, we learn and we grow.
We go through various insights kind of like certain animals as they grow they shed their skin, or shells.
We out grow our programing so to say.

I personally lived for 35 years, and I just had realization that I was never truly happy.
Its a weird acknowledgement, because I can be happy, and I was happy recently.
But I mean happy in the true kind of sense.
Not happy as in haha happy, or happy as in I did that thing I always wanted to do, or I got that thing I always wanted happy, but in real kind of way.
I think in sense I never had much choice in this matter of happiness, as I never really realized it. I just did not know that I am unhappy.
Only now that I realized it, I became aware of it. Ergo the choice emerged.
So I think lot of things in life emerge by us becoming aware of it.
And since we cannot be aware always of what we are not aware of it, for most people this discovery of things never ends.

But humans overall have pretty great capacity to grow in awareness, to grow in understanding of the world and themselves.
So who knows, maybe by the time we are dead we will go through hundreds of levels of development or evolution.

I personally for instance don't take age seriously.
There is upper limit for how long we can live, but we don't actually know when we die, for instance if I get to live to 36 or 136, I would not know.
Or 336 if technology surpasses expectations.

But the bottom line is I am at the level where I think I am going through process of healing and individuation in kind of Jungian terms.
Like I always knew I am my own person in sense, but I have new understandings that change what my default was.
I also realized that our brains can pretty much say, think, imagine whatever they like.
If that makes sense.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

So I think lot of things in life emerge by us becoming aware of it.
And since we cannot be aware always of what we are not aware of it, for most people this discovery of things never ends.

I'd say that "existence" is probably not the best word to describe noumenon (mainly because the definition of "exists" requires empirical verifiability). I believe it is a mistake to imagine noumenon as some sort of "thing" when it is merely an amorphous concept that acts as a place-holder for both "what we don't currently know" (Mysterium Invisus) and "what may be fundamentally unknowable" (Magnum Mysterium). For example, noumenon might be eleventy-trillion layers of sci-fi multiverse, noumenon might be an elaborate alien computer simulation, noumenon might be Brahma's dream, noumenon might be a single super-intelligent (but not omniscient) demiurge that we humans are merely appendages of. In all likelihood, it is conceptually, literally, ultimately and completely beyond our ability to comprehend. All of this makes it very very very difficult for me to believe that we can consider (with any degree of confidence whatsoever) that noumenon is itself comprised of 100% pure, uncut, "objective reality". I mean since noumenon may involve a great many (likely) possibly subjective layers (simulation/dream/multiverse) below our primitive perceptions, although we can deduce with the confidence afforded us by our logic, that there must be, at some level, "real" and "true" and "objective" "reality", we cannot have any confidence that what we are able to perceive has anything-at-all to do with the-hypothetical-objective-essence directly. It's like the old story of the princess and the pea. Clearly there is "something" under the bed, but what are the chances that a normal person would be able to detect it through ninety-nine high-quality mattresses(?).

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I personally lived for 35 years, and I just had realization that I was never truly happy.
Its a weird acknowledgement, because I can be happy, and I was happy recently.
But I mean happy in the true kind of sense.

 

[birdsnestfern]

In response to post #21 and 22 about dragons, I will add some Chinese symbolism of the Dragon since each culture has different meanings.

This is from a book called "A Dictionary of Chinese Symbols" by Wolfram Eberhard.

Combining as it does, all sorts of mythological and cosmological notions, the dragon is one of China's most complex and multi tiered symbols. The word in Chinese for dragon is 'long' and covers a variety of heterogeneous beings. In contrast to Western ideas, the Chinese dragon is a good -natured and benign creature, a symbol of natural male vigour and fertility (yang). From Han Dynasty - 206 bc - ad 220 onwards, the dragon is also the symbol of the Emperor, the Son of Heaven. It is the first of the 360 scaly creatures and the 5th creature in Chinese zodiac. As one of the four creatures of the world directions (Feng Shui), the dragon stands in the East, the region of Sunrise, of fertility, of Spring rains and of rain in general. In this guise, he is known as the blue-green dragon (qing-long) and is contrasted with the white tiger (bo-hu), the ruler of the West and of death.

In this vegetative connotation, the dragon was imagined as spending the winter under the earth; on the 2nd month he rose from the earth into heaven thus causing the first spring thunder and rainfall. In North China, this was the sign for a start to be made on the fields. To this day, the Chinese community in Marysville, California hold a great dragon-feast to mark this occasion; fireworks representing the dragon are let off, and whoever finds a piece of one can look forward to a lucky year.

As a magic animal, the dragon is able to shrink to the size of a silk-worm; and then again it can swell up till it fills the space between heaven and earth. It can be visible or invisible, as it choses. On the day of its ascent into heaven it cannot be seen, being hidden in the rain clouds on which it rides. Pictures often show two dragons playing in the clouds with a ball or a pearl = the pearl represents thunder and this causes rain to fall.

At an early date, cosmological speculation distinguished four kinds of dragon; first of all there are the heaven-dragons (tian-long), symbolizing the regenerative power of heaven; then the spirit-dragons (shen-long) which cause the rain to fall; thirdly, earth dragons (di-long) which rule over springs and water courses, and finally the dragons which guard treasure (fu-cang-long). In addition, people believed in four dragon kings (long-wang) each of which ruled over one of the four seas that encompass the earth. These sea-dragons play a particularly big part in popular tradition. The sea-dragon king, it was beleived, dwelt in a splendid palace full of the most beautiful and valuable things. Those on whom fortune smiles may visit him at the bottom of the sea - they may even be rewarded with one of his daughters in marriage!

At New Year, men in North China join in a dragon dance, and a similar dance takes place during marriage ceremony at the moment when the young couple leave the gathering and make their way to the bridal chamber. Here the dancers enact the conjugal kiss. The belief that a woman could give birth to one or even several dragons was widespread. The word long appears in many place names, and compounds such as dragon mother, dragon lake, etc. The town of Kowloon is the town of the nine dragons (jiu-long) in Mandarin.

Since the number 9 symbolizes male vigour (3 x 3) it is often associated with the dragon. The dragon has nine sons, each one different is very commonly used when wishing a young couple good fortune. Dragons come in all shapes and sizes. In general, it is portrayed with a serpentine body plus feet and claws; its skin is scaly, and it often has horns like those of a stag though its ears are more like an ox's.

Dragon boats are long, narrow boats decorated with dragon motifs. They are used in South China as racing boats in festivities which take place on the fifth day of the 5th month. If a man fell overboard and was drowned (formerly, very few Chinese men could swim) this was looked upon as a not unwelcome sacrifice to the dragon-god, who would thereupon be moved to increase fertility.

Dragon claws: ceremonial dress among the upper classes indicated the wearers rank by the number of claws on the dragon depicted. Thus, the dragon on the Emperor's robe had five claws; four claws indicated a prince; three or less an official.

Together, the dragon and the phoenix embody the male and female essences, and naturally symbolise the married state.

Dragon spittle was ambergris, the very costly perfume brought from Arabia. Dragons eyes (long-yan) are small sweet fruits, known in English as longans. A popular play on the Chinese stage shows Emperor Tai-zong of the Tang Dynasty clad in yellow robes playing chess with his minister Wei Zhen. The latter falls asleep and audience sees breath coming out of his mouth and killing a far off dragon, this is in fact a dragon king who had made a wager with Wei Zhen that he would not cause rain to fall when the supreme deity ordered him to do so. Thus we are told, are disobedient dragons punished. The story is told in the celebrated novel "The Journey to the West" (Xi You ji).

Journey to the West - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ZenRaiden]

Cool Dragon stuff.

 

[ZenRaiden]

ON a fun note I found this hilarious.
This is level 99 Ome INTP.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

This is level 99 Ome INTP.

extreme white-pill

 

[ZenRaiden]

extreme white-pill

Did not know there is white pill, I guess I did not notice.
Ome is like having no shadow, literally scares and frustrates people with goodness.
Sometimes I feel like I could do this by accident.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

ON a fun note I found this hilarious.

 

[ZenRaiden]

that is legit good rap

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

And also I do believe in a "religion". Cults don't match my INFP ways though.

what would you say is the difference between a "religion" and a "cult" ?

 

[birdsnestfern]

Not much. Both seem like extroverted things created for the purpose of an audience for someone with no soul who has to use the energy of others souls because they have none. Like narcissistic supply. Sapping off others spiritually, energetically and financially.

Your true source is inside in the heart and chakra system.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Cults are considered exploitative, vs religions are considered benign.
But judging from the stuff that happens in religions its interchangeable, depending how strict the metric for "exploitation" is.

My personal definition would be insular and not open to transparency.
But then religions are often not transparent, even the major ones.
So I think the word cult is usually meaning to label a small group exploitative and not transparent.
Id argue no religion is benign though. They all can cause and do cause harm.

 

[Black Rose]

And also I do believe in a "religion". Cults don't match my INFP ways though.

what would you say is the difference between a "religion" and a "cult" ?

Religion is a philosophical system of how reality is and what you should do about it.

A cult is a small group that controls you to some extent.

I have a view of how things are based on what I read from many religions.

As INFP I do not believe in controlling people.

 

[karlsta]

Answer to post #31
Similar to what i experienced when i tried DE... only no fancy visions because i blacked out or was somewhere in between. Everything was red-black.
I got a strong feeling that there is no time. No me, no anyone, everything is connected. No individual soul, maybe just a singular shared one. God? not in the classical sense anyway. The universe is just a endless hole you can't get out of. like a computer program that's on a loop. u ded? don't worry you are already reborn. time does not exist. No way out. Happiness and sadness in perfect equilibrium. No goal, point or reason for anything. Quite depressing actually, if it mattered.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Answer to post #31
Similar to what i experienced when i tried DE... only no fancy visions because i blacked out or was somewhere in between. Everything was red-black.
I got a strong feeling that there is no time. No me, no anyone, everything is connected. No individual soul, maybe just a singular shared one. God? not in the classical sense anyway. The universe is just a endless hole you can't get out of. like a computer program that's on a loop. u ded? don't worry you are already reborn. time does not exist. No way out. Happiness and sadness in perfect equilibrium. No goal, point or reason for anything. Quite depressing actually, if it mattered.

I felt something like this too, few times for brief moments in life, including in dreams.
Id argue its real, but our Earth bound brains get to interpret the experience in our own unique ways and therefore form our own conclusions about it.
I have concluded that I still want to live, and bang some dirty beavers before I go, probably only thing holding me in life really. Otherwise Id be dead.
I don't get much out of anything in life, achievements, success, vague illusion of security, all that meaningless shit people chase seems mundane and boring.
Perhaps curiosity as well... like did I miss something?

I think our souls are tuned in some levels of existence.

 

[karlsta]

At least I'm glad I'm not the only wierdo out there
I don't think about stuff like this often, but when i do, i know i cant tell anyone (like my family) what my deepest beliefs are. Because i would be sent somewhere with white walls, white restraining clothes and a faint smell of chlorine. x)

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

At least I'm glad I'm not the only wierdo out there
I don't think about stuff like this often, but when i do, i know i cant tell anyone (like my family) what my deepest beliefs are. Because i would be sent somewhere with white walls, white restraining clothes and a faint smell of chlorine. x)

or you might win an oscar,

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

At least I'm glad I'm not the only wierdo out there
I don't think about stuff like this often, but when i do, i know i cant tell anyone (like my family) what my deepest beliefs are. Because i would be sent somewhere with white walls, white restraining clothes and a faint smell of chlorine. x)

ESOTERIC NOETIC

ESOTERIC NOETIC

letterboxd.com

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

probably only thing holding me

programmed to procreate

and survive

 

[ZenRaiden]

programmed to procreate

and survive

I ain't procreating. If I am then that would be one unhappy child.
Its more experiential thing.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I ain't procreating. If I am then that would be one unhappy child.
Its more experiential thing.

sure, but the instinct to procreate motivates the impulse