Cognitive Functions 100: Basic Functionality Revised

[Adymus]

Adymus. I want to post this before I forget it:

It it true that CF100 is about individuals? It is about cognitive processes of individuals? Although it touches on how we might behave with others, it doesn't focus on group behavior.

Here is a thought experiment: Put 16 INTPs in a room. Give them a theme or not, but let them interact. Since all people are different, do you believe some INTPs will be inclined to exhibit cognitive functions of the other 15 types?

Just to continue the thought, suppose there is a theme or project. Some will remain passive (perception); some will grow active (judgment/choosing). Some will become frustrated or upset (feeling); some will be motivated toward leadership. Anything could happen. Now if so, do we know enough to say at least for the duration of this INTP group experiment, the ordinary Ti-Ne-Si-Fe will break up? Or in what sense would it break up?

Would or could we see the emergence of INFP or even ESFJ behavior which would revert to standard INTP when the group disperses?

If this question belongs to CF200, then we will have to wait for it. I just thought I'd ask.

Let me answer your first question with another question: if you understand that we only have conscious use of our top four functions, why would being in a group of INTPs make us use more cognitive functions than we have conscious control over?

I think you maybe worded your question wrong, did you mean to ask: Since all people are different, do you believe some INTPs will be inclined to exhibit Behavior of the other 15 types?

Sure, I suppose this is somewhat accurate to say. People have developed differently throughout their lives, some have better control over lower functions, some have poor development in Ne, some let their Ti and Ne move freely without modulating it often with Si and Fe, etc etc etc.

Now then, this not exuding behavior of the cognitive functions of other types, because it is still Ti-Ne-Si-Fe and in that order, but if you are asking if they might have a look and feel that is similar to some other types (when compared to the other INTPs), then yes this is true.
INTPs that are developed in certain ways will fit into certain niches where others may not be as comfortable fitting into. For instance if an INTP is more comfortable with their Directive functions, they might take the role of leader, or director of other INTPs. One that is more comfortable with their Fe might also take the facilitator role, etc.

So yes, you will see differences in behavior and roles that they take, but it is still all INTP behavior, because you niche and role is not necessarily defined by your Personality type, that is why we have the versatility of our lower functions.

 

[BigApplePi]

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, but if you are asking if it is possible for a personality to have a Cognitive function Hierarchy with two Introverted, Extroverted, Perception, or Judgment functions in a row, then the answer is no.

Simply put, you would not be able to function... at all, if you did not satisfy the four considerations on each side of the brain. You NEED to be able to engage the outer world, and the inner world, and then gather information and make decisions on both sides of the brain, otherwise you can't a functioning personality. The reasons for this are obvious, I know you don't like it when I use that word, but I'm fairly certain you can see why a person couldn't have a functional personality if they have no way of engaging the outer world etc.

Is it possible? Who knows, I suppose it could be, but it would be the result of a massive deformation.

There are a few other reasons for why the cognitive functions hierarchy are set up the way they are, but that is getting into some very advanced topics. And knowing how you are words are, if I said a little, you would end up getting the entire next 4 lessons out of me through your questions.

I wonder if I'm being told to "sit down and shut up"? I do acknowledge it is perfectly legitimate to say that will be gotten to at a future date -- and then not specify any date. Also I've been to many a lecture where the speaker declines to answer questions saying, "you may ask that in the question and answer period at the end"

Keeping this within the confines of CF100, what you said makes sense. These are cognitive functions in order of importance/ usage/ function. So one must be able to apply them to both the external and internal world.

 

[Adymus]

I'm not telling you to shut up, I'm rationing information for the sake of my own energy conservation. If I say to much it will lead to more misunderstanding of concepts that might have been too advanced to say now, which will be questioned and answered sporadically and disordered, which will create even more confusion for you two. It would be easier for me to just present the information in the logical order it can be best understood and digested in. I'd like to save myself the trouble of taking the round about road.

I am not going to give you a time table, these are written when I have time, I don't have a lot of time in my life right now, and I hope you understand why this is not very high on my list of priorities.

 

[BigApplePi]

Adymus. You've already done a great job. I admire that. Take it easy. Tend to business and enjoy yourself.

 

[Words]

Words, read the following very carefully:

Using cognitive functions in a certain way to get a similar result as others (Not to be confused with the same result) is not using the same cognitive function.

You seem to be getting stuck on names and descriptions here, so let's forget that Fi is refereed to as a moral compass for just a minute.
When an INTP needs to get values based input on how the community will take to one of their ideas, they will check Si to see how similar ideas has effected the Fe dynamics in the past. We already have Fe as our "values based" function, we don't need Fi. Fi makes decisions on personal values, Good/bad, Good/evil, etc, it has nothing to do with community values like Fe does. We already have a compass that makes decisions on something subjective, it's called Ti, only it looks to personal logic: Strong/weak, Makes sense, doesn't make sense. Having a conscious use of Fi would be completely pointless and redundant because our Ti serves the exact same purpose.

We don't have Fi, but again, that does not mean we are devoid of values, we have Fe for that.

So, the difference is that Fi thinks about self idea of right and wrong. and Fe looks at Si (for information on others' reaction) and decides what is "right and wrong"(or does it?). Does Fe decide?

Where is the origin of Fi's subjective views?

Oh, and please don't feel obligated to answer questions. They're simply presented and any reactions are only additions.

 

[Adymus]

So, the difference is that Fi thinks about self idea of right and wrong. and Fe looks at Si (for information on others' reaction) and decides what is "right and wrong"(or does it?). Does Fe decide?

Where is the origin of Fi's subjective views?

Oh, and please don't feel obligated to answer questions. They're simply presented and any reactions are only additions.

yeah but I have to answer the questions damn it, I have an insatiable urge to step in to clarity the inaccurate.

I should point out that the use of Si that I described about was only in the context of an INTP, it will be different for other types, so Fe is not necessarily connected with Si for other types.

Yes Fe does decide what is good and bad in relation to other people, not personal values like Fi does.

Fi does not have "views" it is a judgment function, but it does become richer in feeling tones and nuance as it develops, and it get's those from a life of using it. The same way an INTP get's more finely tuned Ti from using it.

 

[BigApplePi]

yeah but I have to answer the questions damn it, I have an insatiable urge to step in to clarity the inaccurate.

I should point out that the use of Si that I described about was only in the context of an INTP, it will be different for other types, so Fe is not necessarily connected with Si for other types.

Yes Fe does decide what is good and bad in relation to other people, not personal values like Fi does.

Fi does not have "views" it is a judgment function, but it does become richer in feeling tones and nuance as it develops, and it get's those from a life of using it. The same way an INTP get's more finely tuned Ti from using it.

Okay. Since you have to answer, I have to question (not the best of logic). If an INTP comes home after a very bad day at the office, snaps at his wife, growls at his dog, hisses at his cat, and stomps on his carpet is he using Si? Is every type using Si if "childish" behavior is behind this and it's not calculated? (This doesn't seem like extroverted Fe to me.) I thought this was an unconscious Freudian "id" at work or displaced anger at his boss. So is it Si or Fi? Or is this impossible for an INTP and more like an INFP?

 

[Adymus]

Pi, after all you read about Si in this guide... why the bloody hell would you think it is being used when an INTP beats his wife? What does that have anything to do with what I already told you guys about it?

INTP "In the grip" shadow behavior = Fe by the way. Snapping at your wife and irrational outbursts definitely sounds like polar Fe being pushed on. In what way does that not seem extroverted?

 

[Words]

Fi does not have "views" it is a judgment function.

But where is the judgment based on? Unlike INTP: Fe from Si, where is INFP Fi from?

From Fi itself? A model it created to understand the emotional world?

And another:

I've noticed that what is considered unhealthy is always expressed by the person in Fe or Te. Therefore, the conclusion is that Fe is unhealthy. But a person is only a person if all functions are included within the equation. An Fe Ni Se Ti then is "unhealthy" not because of inferior functions but because of all functions. But isn't the "weak" inferior function the "crack" that tears down the whole entire set of functions? Or does it not play the dominant role in "unhealthiness"? If that's the case, then why is often mentioned that our inferior functions are the roots of our "failures"?

 

[Anthile]

lbgevljA NJGeab jlg leGEya gljeaBLJEKNA BVJELWKB VLJQE joäWOHG W-k- gKkgfEAGBFHKBakshFBHaDsbvAM vsF VHAKSA hM eavjKEFKSABABG


3...2...1...om mani padme hum... better now.

 

[Adymus]

and us an urge to question. oh dear...


But where is the judgment based on? Unlike INTP: Fe from Si, where is INFP Fi from?

From Fi itself? A model it created to understand the emotional world?

And another:

I've noticed that what is considered unhealthy is always expressed by the person in Fe or Te. Therefore, the conclusion is that Fe is unhealthy. But a person is only a person if all functions are included within the equation. An Fe Ni Se Ti then is "unhealthy" not because of inferior functions but because of all functions. But isn't the "weak" inferior function the "crack" that tears down the whole entire set of functions? Or does it not play the dominant role in "unhealthiness"? If that's the case, then why is often mentioned that our inferior functions are the roots of our "failures"?

*sigh*

Words... Why does it feel like you are learning less and less the more I teach? It's almost as if I am subtracting information from you.

here is the main idea that is really all you need to know for now, all functions communicate to each other, that means that Fi can base judgments from not just Ne but Si for an INFP for instance. Likewise Fe can technically base judgments from Ne and Si for an INTP. This is basic perception and judgment, it is really not as complicated as you seem to think it is.

Words, by your logic, I noticed stupid people express their stupidity by speaking, therefor speaking is stupid. Fe and Te as a means to communicate does not make it unhealthy just because they are expressing something unhealthy through Te or Fe.

It is the inferior function that modulates the dominant, nothing more, nothing less. Over modulation leads to stress and suppression, but modulation itself is a necessary process. So, no, I wouldn't say our inferior functions are the root of our failures. Failure is the root of our failures.

 

[Words]

What does the hierarchy of functions(the order) show?

What is mainly developed(because of what is mainly preferred) but not necessarily in reality(tendency)? The level of "energizing effect"?


What does Ti Ne Si Fe mean?

 

[Adymus]

What does the hierarchy of functions(the order) show?

Your personality type.

What is mainly developed(because of what is mainly preferred) but not necessarily in reality(tendency)? The level of "energizing effect"?

Be more specific, I have no idea what you are even asking.

What does Ti Ne Si Fe mean?

I am guessing you are trying to illustrate an INTP whose Si and Fe are stronger than their Ti and Ne, yes? Not possible, the dominant function is always the strongest.

 

[Words]

I am guessing you are trying to illustrate an INTP whose Si and Fe are stronger than their Ti and Ne, yes?

yes

Not possible, the dominant function is always the strongest.

So there are absolutely no cases wherein the INTP Si is more developed than the Ne?

I'm wondering about how flexible this "development" is...

 

[snowqueen]

yes


So there are absolutely no cases wherein the Si is more developed than the Ne?

If that is the case then you would be more likely to be ISFJ (SiFeTiNe) or ISTJ (SiTeFiNe) Or at a push ESFJ (FeSiNeTi).

Is that correct, Adymus?

 

[cheese]

ISFP = FiSeNiTe, I think.

 

[BigApplePi]

Let me see if I can point out some processes here:

1. We look at a person and try to type them via their typical behavior.
2. Having determined their type, we notice the relative development of their Dominant Auxiliary Tertiary Inferior functions.
3. We observe occasional odd behavior which appears to deviate but it does not. It always goes to one of the top four cognitive functions.
4. If we have difficulty identifying either odd behavior or typical behavior, we should reexamine #1.

 

[snowqueen]

ISFP = FiSeNiTe, I think.

Yes I meant ISTJ - reading the wrong line. I've corrected it now.

 

[snowqueen]

To Adymus

This post is really for Adymus. I want to attach a file but I can't seem to do it in a pm despite the FAQ saying I can, but I do have the necessary uploading facility for documents here so apologies to others.

Adymus - I thought rather than continue our discussion which seems to have too much potential for conflict, as you are INTP, it might be better to approach the whole deal logically . Anyway what I've done in this post and the next is set up a two column table with 'me' and 'not me' and I have gone through the OP sorting out the elements into the two categories. I've then analysed it and compared it to the possible types and come up with my conclusion. I'm interested in whether you think this could be useful? It's in two parts because of upload limits. So the first part is attached to this post and the second to the next.

 

[snowqueen]

to Adymus

part 2 attached

 

[ckm]

So there are absolutely no cases wherein the INTP Si is more developed than the Ne?

I'm wondering about how flexible this "development" is...

Recently I have found Ne extremely draining (to the point that I'm considering that my Si may be higher), for instance at a Maths lecture this Saturday I had a lot of trouble making the abstract connections between the theories that were being discussed. Upon trying to engage, I found myself frustrated and confused - I couldn't keep up properly. In a sense this seems to indicate an underfunctioning Ne, but maybe what we were learning was too focused for my Ne to work with (actually, thinking of that interpretation sounds like Ne ).

I see an overlap between Ti's search for definitions and Si's desire to ground in the definite. Doesn't this mean that Ti can clash with Ne (which should only clash with Fe and Si, respectively)?

 

[Adymus]

Words, yes it is possible for your tertiary function to be more developed than your Auxiliary, it's actually surprisingly common, I talked about this already in the thread before, I believe you were present for that.

With that said, let's segue into...

Snowqueen, no that would not make you more likely an ISFJ, because it is not how developed your functions are that determine your type, it is their hierarchical order. You should check out that link, I posted above, it has more useful information on that.
While a tertiary function might get more validation in your life, and you might be more confident with expressing it than your auxiliary, it is still your auxiliary that is going to be more stimulating to use.

To put this into an example: INTP's who have developed their Ti (obviously) and Si, but still have undeveloped Ne, will still be more interested in the abstract and philosophical thought processes of Ti and Ne, but they live their lives not taking very many chances outside of their own comfort zone. Their Si tells them that there is nothing out there in the world of people for them, and that people would not understand them anyway. Or that the costoms and rituals of their society are stupid and pointless and it is not necessary for them to take any part in them (This in particular is undeveloped Ne and Fe.) It is only when they take a chance outside of their comfort zone that they actually begin to see the possibilities of what the outside world has, and can then start leaning on their Ne drive toward the new and unexplored.

Here is another example that you might find interesting: INFJs who have developed Ni and Ti, but under developed Fe. The INFJs needs to get a "push back" from the social world (Fe), when this happens then they can go back into their Ni and speculate why that happened and how it can be avoided, giving them a better and clearer understanding of the world around them. However, if INFJs fear this "push back", then their Ni inner world will just keep peculating, and their Ti will give it even more nuance and depth, but it will not have the imput of real Fe to actually tie it to the real world. Because of this their Ni might become very detached from how the world actually works, and when people disagree with their worldview they will pass it off as: "They are just not evolved/perceptive/intelligent/enlightened enough to see what I see." In worse cases, they might even become extremely adversarial of the society around them for not being anything even close to like how their Ni is telling them that they are supposed to be like.

I'll check out your files and get back to you in a PM.

CKM - I think you are misreading something, we literally can't be more stimulated by Si than Ne, we wouldn't be INTPs if that is how it was. You issue sounds like it might be more related to Fe than Ne, use see we use Fe to actively listen to people, and if we have a lot going on in our mind (Ti) then it will pull us away from people and also what they are saying.

Also, No Ti and Ne can not clash, Judgment never clashes with perception. Ne sees more possibilities, and Ti names them or figures out how they would work (in short), Ti has no agenda of what is fact and what is not fact, like Si does.

 

[snowqueen]

Here is another example that you might find interesting: INFJs who have developed Ni and Ti, but under developed Fe. The INFJs needs to get a "push back" from the social world (Fe), when this happens then they can go back into their Ni and speculate why that happened and how it can be avoided, giving them a better and clearer understanding of the world around them. However, if INFJs fear this "push back", then their Ni inner world will just keep peculating, and their Ti will give it even more nuance and depth, but it will not have the imput of real Fe to actually tie it to the real world. Because of this their Ni might become very detached from how the world actually works, and when people disagree with their worldview they will pass it off as: "They are just not evolved/perceptive/intelligent/enlightened enough to see what I see." In worse cases, they might even become extremely adversarial of the society around them for not being anything even close to like how their Ni is telling them that they are supposed to be like. *Cough*snowqueen up to the age of 35*Cough*

I'll check out your files and get back to you in a PM.

Thank you, I appreciate your patience

 

[Words]

What does the hierarchy of functions(the order) show?

So, to put it simply, it only shows the level of stimulation we get from each function and not what is more developed. And by "strongest", you meant more stimulating?

Is it possible for Ti be underdeveloped? (for an INTP).

 

[Adymus]

So, to put it simply, it only shows the level of stimulation we get from each function and not what is more developed. And by "strongest", you meant more stimulating?

Is it possible for Ti be underdeveloped? (for an INTP).

Yes, that is exactly what it means, but I should clarify a bit further, just a slight tweak of your wording.

The Hierarchy determines the "Pull" of your functions, only two of your top two functions are stimulating (Ti and Ne), but since Ti is more stimulating than Ne, it has the strongest "pull". Thus making it the dominant function.

Si is a draining function for an INTP, but as it only suppresses Ne, which is not an INTP's highest priority it is not as draining as Fe, which is suppressive of Ti.

One final note: The bottom two functions serve a very useful purpose, they are not simply necessary evils that we must deal with. Your Top two functions want to keep moving forward so to speak, if we could, we would never leave our Ti. And if that happened, well we would never speak to each other or anybody else in the world again. This is why we have our Fe to "rein in" our Ti, and our Si to rein in our Ne so it is not caught up bouncing in unrealistic directions. On top of that, we need those functions to "refine" our higher functions in such a way that can be more versatile and adaptable for production.
So no, words, your lower functions are certainly not always used unhealthily.

Is it possible for Ti be underdeveloped? (for an INTP).

Only if you are comparing the Ti's of two INTPs... But there will never be a scenario where you should hear yourself saying "That INTP has a terrible Ti but everything else is working fine." If your Ti is weak, it is because everything below it is weaker. Your Ti can only rise as high as your lower functions will let it. The INTP with a well developed Si and Fe will always have a stronger and more well rounded Ti than the ones that don't.

 

[BigApplePi]

Yes, that is exactly what it means, but I should clarify a bit further, just a slight tweak of your wording.

The Hierarchy determines the "Pull" of your functions, only two of your top two functions are stimulating (Ti and Ne), but since Ti is more stimulating than Ne, it has the strongest "pull". Thus making it the dominant function.

Si is a draining function for an INTP, but as it only suppresses Ne, which is not an INTP's highest priority it is not as draining as Fe, which is suppressive of Ti.

One final note: The bottom two functions serve a very useful purpose, they are not simply necessary evils that we must deal with. Your Top two functions want to keep moving forward so to speak, if we could, we would never leave our Ti. And if that happened, well we would never speak to each other or anybody else in the world again. This is why we have our Fe to "rein in" our Ti, and our Si to rein in our Ne so it is not caught up bouncing in unrealistic directions. On top of that, we need those functions to "refine" our higher functions in such a way that can be more versatile and adaptable for production.
So no, words, your lower functions are certainly not always used unhealthily.


Only if you are comparing the Ti's of two INTPs... But there will never be a scenario where you should hear yourself saying "That INTP has a terrible Ti but everything else is working fine." If your Ti is weak, it is because everything below it is weaker. Your Ti can only rise as high as your lower functions will let it. The INTP with a well developed Si and Fe will always have a stronger and more well rounded Ti than the ones that don't.

In the description of the four CFs to determine their place in the hierarchy I have heard "stimulating", "pull" and "draining" that I recall with "rein in" as a possible addition. Correct me if I missed something or am off here. Note "pull" is placed in quotes. That leaves interpretation open for error or at least uncertain judgment. If there is a more precise way of addressing this, that would be desirable.

If we think in terms of nature and nurture it would help to look into capacity (nature) and experience (nurture). That is, where does this "pull" come from? Is it from within our brain as a combination of nature-capacity and nurture-experience that we determine our dominant function? If so, a large capacity within our brain function (or some directive to that capacity) would "naturally" be likely to "fill up" for that CF rather than for some other CF. How many such brain areas would there be? We are considering I/E, T/F, N/S and J/E. I would keep in mind that "stimulating" and "pull" are inclined to be more experientially derived and active via nurture. Brain capacity (nature) is passive though active forces may be at play.

 

[Adymus]

In the description of the four CFs to determine their place in the hierarchy I have heard "stimulating", "pull" and "draining" that I recall with "rein in" as a possible addition. Correct me if I missed something or am off here. Note "pull" is placed in quotes. That leaves interpretation open for error or at least uncertain judgment. If there is a more precise way of addressing this, that would be desirable.

If we think in terms of nature and nurture it would help to look into capacity (nature) and experience (nurture). That is, where does this "pull" come from? Is it from within our brain as a combination of nature-capacity and nurture-experience that we determine our dominant function? If so, a large capacity within our brain function (or some directive to that capacity) would "naturally" be likely to "fill up" for that CF rather than for some other CF. How many such brain areas would there be? We are considering I/E, T/F, N/S and J/E. I would keep in mind that "stimulating" and "pull" are inclined to be more experientially derived and active via nurture. Brain capacity (nature) is passive though active forces may be at play.

Another word I have been using to describe the polar relationships of functions is "modulation". Because when two polar functions begin to affect each other the result is not necessarily outright suppression, but rather truncation. So for instance, when Fe "pulls" or modulates Ti, it is causing it to produce less, or to do less work.

The modulation relationships already existed in our cognitive functions when we were born, all of the wiring of cognitive functions was already in place when we were born. It is not the experience that decides how our functions will be modulated, all the experience does is affect a certain cognitive wiring that was already there.

 

[BigApplePi]

Another word I have been using to describe the polar relationships of functions is "modulation". Because when two polar functions begin to affect each other the result is not necessarily outright suppression, but rather truncation. So for instance, when Fe "pulls" or modulates Ti, it is causing it to produce less, or to do less work.

The modulation relationships already existed in our cognitive functions when we were born, all of the wiring of cognitive functions was already in place when we were born. It is not the experience that decides how our functions will be modulated, all the experience does is affect a certain cognitive wiring that was already there.

A lot of that wiring is there at birth. Not sure if it is complete. After all our brain grows through the twenties doesn't it? But maybe you didn't mean that. Whatever we are born with is our major guide.

By "polarization" and "modulation" are you confining that to dominant vs inferior functions or all along the line of adjacents of the four functions? For example for an INTP, would that apply to Ne and Si?

 

[Adymus]

Our brain does continue growing of course, but it grows within that structure that was already placed. It's like how when a baby grows into an adult, there are many outside factors that will affect how it grows such as exercise, nutrition, etc. But there is an structure to their growth that didn't just come out of no where, it was on a genetic course.

The modulation relationships are between the two functions that are most opposite of each other, such as Ti and Fe, or Ne and Si, or Te and Fi, etc.

So to answer your question, yes, it refers to more than Just dominant and inferior.

 

[BigApplePi]

Our brain does continue growing of course, but it grows within that structure that was already placed. It's like how when a baby grows into an adult, there are many outside factors that will affect how it grows such as exercise, nutrition, etc. But there is an structure to their growth that didn't just come out of no where, it was on a genetic course.

The modulation relationships are between the two functions that are most opposite of each other, such as Ti and Fe, or Ne and Si, or Te and Fi, etc.

So to answer your question, yes, it refers to more than Just dominant and inferior.

You are going to have to pardon me for the wild things that come into my head. Suppose we try to construct these personality types. Are they possible?

Ti Fe Si Ne?
Ni Se Ti Fe?
Fi Te Ni Se?
Se Ni Fe Ti?
Te Fi Se Ni?
Ne Si Te Fi?
Fe Ti Ne Si?
Si Ne Fi Te?

Ti Ne Fi Se?
Ni Te Si Fe?
Ne Ti Se Fi?
Ti Se Fi Ne?
etc.

 

[Adymus]

No.

Don't forget the four considerations Pi.

 

[BigApplePi]

No.

Don't forget the four considerations Pi.

Okay. I'll check them out.

 

[Words]

Only if you are comparing the Ti's of two INTPs...

I meant as oppose to the rest of the functions: Ne Si Fe.

------

Now, the Shadow Functions.

Reason for their existence?
Effects on Primary Functions?


I(possible INTP) believe that I have Fi. I can't imagine any other explanation. I criticize logic but there are times when my focus is on the feelings of whom I'm observing. I have Se because I have the ability to be aware of my surroundings in a very Se fashion(feeling the moment, smelling coffee, etc). I don't believe that any other functions are better to describe these behaviors.

 

[BigApplePi]

Te is checking for consequences, monitoring for standards or specifications being met and deciding if something is working or not. Te is setting boundaries, guidelines and parameters. In written or verbal communication, Te helps us notice when something is missing. Te harmonizes us with the general ideas about reality, so most the standards of order we employ are collectively determined. When one uses Te, they are recognizing that certain principles of order are “always true”. The “truth” of Te, in this respect, is not its scientific accuracy but its rational utility. It doesn’t matter that other cultures have conceptualized times, space, and seasonal progression differently than we do. The bottom line is that our Te principles are reliable enough to use as consensual benchmarks, thereby freeing us from the dictates of immediate experience. Te is a social language—a vocabulary that creates common ground, rights, and expectations among people whose life experiences may be very different.

Adymus I located the above quote under Te, Protocols. If an INTP is experiencing this, would you call it either Si or Fe? For example I experience this when attempting to prove a specific mathematical theorem. I am experiencing this right now writing this post.

If this is correct, a genuine Te person using it as a major (Dominant or Auxiliary) function is different from another who practices precisely the same behavior as a minor (Tertiary or Inferior) function. In the latter case, it is not genuine Te.

 

[Adymus]

Adymus I located the above quote under Te, Protocols. If an INTP is experiencing this, would you call it either Si or Fe? For example I experience this when attempting to prove a specific mathematical theorem. I am experiencing this right now writing this post.

If this is correct, a genuine Te person using it as a major (Dominant or Auxiliary) function is different from another who practices precisely the same behavior as a minor (Tertiary or Inferior) function. In the latter case, it is not genuine Te.

What specifically about it are they experiencing? Because I can tell you that they are going to not be experiencing everything about Te down to the last drop.

Every personality has the ability to create the kind of constructs and efficient work-flow models that Te creates (doesn't mean you are actually using Te though), but if you don't have Te then you will do it from a combination of different functions. For instance an INTP would use Ti to check for logical consistency and efficiency, and then Si and Fe to structure everything in time

EDIT: Oops, I meant to say "Not experience everything Te does to the last drop"

 

[ckm]

Every personality has the ability to create the kind of constructs and efficient work-flow models that Te creates (doesn't mean you are actually using Te though), but if you don't have Te then you will do it from a combination of different functions. For instance an INTP would use Ti to check for logical consistency and efficiency, and then Si and Fe to structure everything in time

Interesting. I had been wondering something like this for a while now. Does this apply to all functions?

INFJs for instance have no Si. Is referencing past experiences somehow replaced by other functions? Or INTJs, who have no Fe - is it possible to be completely oblivious to social structure?

 

[Adymus]

Interesting. I had been wondering something like this for a while now. Does this apply to all functions?

INFJs for instance have no Si. Is referencing past experiences somehow replaced by other functions? Or INTJs, who have no Fe - is it possible to be completely oblivious to social structure?

It kind of does actually.

For instance, Se can be abstracted into the mind and be used to relive things that happened to the person (Similar to Si recall, but it has it's differences)

As for Te users, it is up to their Fi to allow them to be more adaptive to social structures. Using their Personal values to be more understanding of how they will be perceived.


Think of it like this, Te and Ti are languages on the same frequency. The Language of Logic based discernment. That means the Ti and Te user will be able to understand and adapt to each other with relative ease. Fe and Fi are also two languages that are on the same frequency, Values based discernment. In the same ways as the Thinking function, Fe and Fi will be able to understand and adapt to each other with ease.

 

[ckm]

Shit, just when I thought typing people couldn't get any harder. FML.

 

[Adymus]

Shit, just when I thought typing people couldn't get any harder. FML.

Well hang on now, I am not saying they are essentially the same thing, because the two are still very different.

Ti and Fi being personal on subjective, Te and Fe being objective and universal.
They speak the same language but the two do not always agree with each other.
Te is how things are supposed to work, Ti is how things work well for you. (Ti is very survivalist in that sense, like when you go to war and forget about all that Te crap you learned in basic training and start using personally calibrated tactics that actually work well.)

 

[ckm]

I'm aware that they're different, but it leaves interpretation of behaviour open to many more interpretations, as I see it. When I think I recognise a function in someone, there always seem to be a million and one other reasons for why s/he just did whatever.

 

[Adymus]

I'm aware that they're different, but it leaves interpretation of behaviour open to many more interpretations, as I see it. When I think I recognise a function in someone, there always seem to be a million and one other reasons for why s/he just did whatever.

I suppose it might, but it is still not too difficult to tell the difference in my experience.

 

[Maverick]

INTPs that are developed in certain ways will fit into certain niches where others may not be as comfortable fitting into. For instance if an INTP is more comfortable with their Directive functions, they might take the role of leader, or director of other INTPs. One that is more comfortable with their Fe might also take the facilitator role, etc.

how can someone feel more comfortable using their draining function?
I think this can only be possible 'may be' by training on putting more conscious efforts on their relatively unconscious functions but this surely will transcend being typed as INTP.

 

[Words]

^

I believe you can try the method of switching "energy source" from direct to indirect. For example, if your "energized" by creating solutions(Ti) and "drained" by social communication, you could try an "on-the-spot creation of solution while communicating"(TiFe).

The preference of information can also serve as impetus in "energizing" yourself within conversations(FeNe). You might be drained by Fe, but there is Ne to partner it with.

 

[BigApplePi]

^

I believe you can try the method of switching "energy source" from direct to indirect. For example, if you're "energized" by creating solutions(Ti) and "drained" by social communication, you could try an "on-the-spot creation of solution while communicating"(TiFe).

The preference of information can also serve as impetus in "energizing" yourself within conversations(FeNe). You might be drained by Fe, but there is Ne to partner it with.

No matter how skilled one is at Ti, interacting with people is a dynamic right-now experience. Expect results to depend on one's Fe experience. If one dropped by a jargon filled meeting where one is expected to know the subject, one's Ne might tell one the creation of a solution is to quickly leave the premises.

 

[Words]

I guess...but does "development" mean less drainage? or control or knowledge of the subject/process.

 

[Maverick]

how can someone feel more comfortable using their draining function?
I think this can only be possible 'may be' by training on putting more conscious efforts on their relatively unconscious functions but this surely will transcend being typed as INTP.

sorry I didn't read it all
Now I think s/he still will be typed as an INTP with developed inferior function
I get it unless someone wants to add more.


I found it in this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Words
So, to put it simply, it only shows the level of stimulation we get from each function and not what is more developed. And by "strongest", you meant more stimulating?

Is it possible for Ti be underdeveloped? (for an INTP).

Yes, that is exactly what it means, but I should clarify a bit further, just a slight tweak of your wording.

The Hierarchy determines the "Pull" of your functions, only two of your top two functions are stimulating (Ti and Ne), but since Ti is more stimulating than Ne, it has the strongest "pull". Thus making it the dominant function.

Si is a draining function for an INTP, but as it only suppresses Ne, which is not an INTP's highest priority it is not as draining as Fe, which is suppressive of Ti.

One final note: The bottom two functions serve a very useful purpose, they are not simply necessary evils that we must deal with. Your Top two functions want to keep moving forward so to speak, if we could, we would never leave our Ti. And if that happened, well we would never speak to each other or anybody else in the world again. This is why we have our Fe to "rein in" our Ti, and our Si to rein in our Ne so it is not caught up bouncing in unrealistic directions. On top of that, we need those functions to "refine" our higher functions in such a way that can be more versatile and adaptable for production.
So no, words, your lower functions are certainly not always used unhealthily.

Quote:
Is it possible for Ti be underdeveloped? (for an INTP).
Only if you are comparing the Ti's of two INTPs... But there will never be a scenario where you should hear yourself saying "That INTP has a terrible Ti but everything else is working fine." If your Ti is weak, it is because everything below it is weaker. Your Ti can only rise as high as your lower functions will let it. The INTP with a well developed Si and Fe will always have a stronger and more well rounded Ti than the ones that don't.

 

[Maverick]

^

I believe you can try the method of switching "energy source" from direct to indirect. For example, if your "energized" by creating solutions(Ti) and "drained" by social communication, you could try an "on-the-spot creation of solution while communicating"(TiFe).

The preference of information can also serve as impetus in "energizing" yourself within conversations(FeNe). You might be drained by Fe, but there is Ne to partner it with.

I agree with the second part FeNe but I think TiFe will suppress each other in fact Fe will direct Ti well if you have developed it well. Then you can use you Ti in tandem with Ne on new subject.

 

[Words]

On my own experiments, the successful conversations I've made were mainly from my usage of (TiNe). No personal/social "Fe" connections were developed but we are talking about being "comfortable with the inferior function aside from the practice of the function".

Fe is a very "disgusting" function. It should then be paired with a more(most) comfortable function...but I have never tried it. I've done (SiFe) but my voice started to shake and clearly it wasn't effective. "On the spot" is my only thought for now.

 

[BigApplePi]

On my own experiments, the successful conversations I've made were mainly from my usage of (TiNe). No personal/social "Fe" connections were developed but we are talking about being "comfortable with the inferior function aside from the practice of the function".

Fe is a very "disgusting" function. It should then be paired with a more(most) comfortable function...but I have never tried it. I've done (SiFe) but my voice started to shake and clearly it wasn't effective. "On the spot" is my only thought for now.

Words. How is Fe "disgusting"?

 

[Adymus]

how can someone feel more comfortable using their draining function?
I think this can only be possible 'may be' by training on putting more conscious efforts on their relatively unconscious functions but this surely will transcend being typed as INTP.

Being uncomfortable using a lower function does not simply come from the fact that it is more draining. It comes from our sensitivity to knowing that it is our least developed, and thus having less confidence in functions. It ends up being a vicious circle, we don't work to develop these functions because we are not confident in them, and we are not confident in using them because we have not developed them enough.

An INTP who is comfortable using a lower function is one who has had experience in their life using and succeeding with said lower function. Thus giving them more confidence, and a stronger use in said lower function.