• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Which country has the slackest gun laws?

Thurlor

Nutter
Local time
Today 2:51 PM
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
627
-->
Location
Victoria, Australia
My google-fu skills must really suck. I have spent the last few hours trying to find a list of school shootings that is broken up by country that also shows how strict each country's gun laws are. My reason being that I find it hard to believe that the US has the slackest gun laws in the world (which would logically lead to an increase in public shootings).

I don't remember the source but I have seen stats showing that the states in the US with the slackest gun laws have the lowest rates of gun violence. This makes no sense if the lack of gun laws is to be blamed for public shootings.

Maybe I am way off base here, but something else seems to be the cause of all this violence. It could be culture or education or mental illness or many other things.
 

Rook

enter text
Local time
Today 7:51 AM
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
2,457
-->
Location
look at flag
it's hard for me to give a straight answer. For instance, how does one measure gun laws in a country like Somalia? And some countries might have stricter gun laws but poorer policing and therefore more black market guns and more violence.

Personally I believe in the utility of bearing arms(don't own a gun rn but grew up with 'em), yet giving a gun to a murderous madman is unwise unless that gun is pointed at your foes.

These cases all have their own nuances and remember, America is big. 350+ million people, so hoping that violence and massacre never occurs among such a group of people means little, total control of population is most enticing way to prevent such events, unless the government itself is complicit in massacre(Rwanda, Third Reich).

Here in south africa people rarely shoot up schools. Last big massaxcre was our government killing miners. There was that one guy killed folk at school with a samurai sword, and i think i remember a pupil shooting a teacher in cold blood with his father's gun, there are more cases but none so ultra-violent. And I think our gun control is stricter, you have to have three people to vouch for you and then thats for the basic self defense license: only a sidearm or shotgun. the government actively is anti-gun imo and they make people jump through so many hoops for hunting and collector licenses that they might as well call their laws 'only the rich get many guns'.

Anyway, that doesn't work, some cities you can pick up a hot gun for as little as 32USD or thereabouts. And many confiscated guns conveniently disappear from police lock-ups back onto the streets. criminals will also actively target safer marks who are known or suspected to own guns(older people on farms) and through robbery and maybe murder claim new tools of their trade.

So there's many factors in massacre: Ideology, attention-seeking, depression, teenage hormones, simple neurological disconnect with society, pure bloodlust, hatred, abyssal feeling of rejection, spiteful pettiness, one can go on.

The Okhlahoma City bombing, the Unabomber: Making sure automatic guns don't end up in the hands of enraged madfolk is wise, but in the end and for all time probably, if there's a will there's a way.
 

BurnedOut

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 10:21 AM
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Messages
1,183
-->
The country is most likely USA ironically. I did some research on the topic and found out that USA and Canada, Estonia are the contenders. The Africas are fucked only if they have civil wars but other than that, USA's gun laws are more lenient than the worst war-affected countries in the world.


Secondly, mass shootings of USA, believe me or not, are not above average. They are publicized much more due to media being a bit better
 

Cognisant

Prolific Member
Local time
Yesterday 5:51 PM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
9,828
-->
Am I to believe I'm more aware of mass shootings in the USA than in Australia because the shootings in the US are better publicized to me than shootings in my own country?

I find that rather hard to believe.
 

Thurlor

Nutter
Local time
Today 2:51 PM
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
627
-->
Location
Victoria, Australia
I don't think that the publicization of mass shootings in the US is greater than that of most countries. Maybe some shit-hole countries hide their figures but that is a different thing.
 

Rook

enter text
Local time
Today 7:51 AM
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
2,457
-->
Location
look at flag
Secondly, mass shootings of USA, believe me or not, are not above average. They are publicized much more due to media being a bit better

lol USA media is definitely more all-pervasive but way less objective and fact-orientated imo. from what I've seen at least these shootings are more sensationalized and used as fodder for debates and thus controversy and thus views than objectively reported on. that might just be me tho.

and culture exists. psuedo-martyrs exist. once a few edgy boys gain nationwide, nay global-wide fame, having their manifestos plastered on forums and their faces cut into youtube reaction videos, other edgy boys might think 'hey u know my life so shit m8 but im ubermensch fuck em let em weep they shall know my name and tremble etc.' or some variation of that.

people murder in different ways and for different reasons all over the world.


-----------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_death_toll

#20 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robb_Elementary_School_shooting tied with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerch_Polytechnic_College_massacre both perps 18 of age.


9th and 1st on list not caused by military or quasi-militant organizations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyanguli_Fire_Tragedy

===The Kyanguli Fire Tragedy occurred on the night of 25 March 2001 when a dormitory at Kyanguli Secondary School in Machakos County, Kenya was set on fire in an act of arson by two 16-year-old students of the school. 67 pupils died in the incident.

In early March 2001, Davis Onyango Opiyo, then a 16-year-old form 3 student, approached Felix Mambo Ngumbao with a plan to burn down a dormitory in the school. Opiyo told Ngumbao that he, like many students in the school, did not like the new principal, David Mutiso Kiilu. Top of the list of complaints against the new administration was the low quality of food that they said was being provided. Some of the survivors later said that they suspected the administration's demands for unpaid school fees as well as a decision to cancel KCSE results over cheating by the Ministry of Education may have contributed to the tragedy.[1] The two boys contributed 600 Kenyan shillings (Ksh.) to buy petrol at a nearby service station. On Saturday 24 March when the rest of the school had attended a school sports event, the two went to Machakos town and bought 15 liters of petrol. That night, some students complained to the school authorities that they smelt petrol coming from one of the dormitories. However, a search by the principal, the head boy and the night guard did not reveal anything.

Prior to the tragedy, there had been an unsuccessful attempt to torch the principal's office and the library. There had also been notes circulated in the school calling for a strike against the administration but the student body seemed not to be bothered by the call.
======

13th on list, first one caused by a single private individual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
======
The Bath School disaster, also known as the Bath School massacre,[Note 1] was a series of violent attacks perpetrated by Andrew Kehoe on May 18, 1927, in Bath Township, Michigan, United States. The attacks killed 38 elementary schoolchildren and 6 adults, and injured at least 58 other people. Prior to his timed explosives detonating at the Bath Consolidated School building, Kehoe had murdered his wife, Nellie Price Kehoe, and firebombed his farm. Arriving at the site of the school explosion, Kehoe died when he detonated explosives concealed in his truck.

Kehoe, the 55-year-old school board treasurer, was angered by increased taxes and his defeat in the April 5, 1926, election for township clerk. He was thought by locals to have planned his "murderous revenge" after that public defeat. Kehoe had a reputation for difficulty on the school board and in personal dealings. In addition, he was notified in June 1926 that his mortgage was going to be foreclosed upon. For much of the next year until May 1927, Kehoe purchased explosives. He secretly hid them on his property and under the school.

On May 18, 1927, Kehoe then set off almost simultaneous explosions at his farmstead and at the Bath Consolidated School. His devices destroyed the farm's buildings and ripped through the north wing of the Bath Consolidated School building. As rescuers began working at the school, Kehoe drove up to the schoolyard and detonated dynamite inside his shrapnel-filled truck. The truck explosion killed Kehoe plus four other people, and also injured bystanders. During the rescue and recovery efforts, searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol in the south wing of the school that had been set to go off at the same time as the initial explosions in the north wing; Kehoe had apparently intended to destroy the entire school and kill everyone in it.
=======
 

BurnedOut

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 10:21 AM
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Messages
1,183
-->
I don't think that the publicization of mass shootings in the US is greater than that of most countries.
A few years ago, I was reading an article by someone who actually analysed this phenomenon and concluded that the media is the culprit of this perception. Just because people have guns, it does not suddenly lead to violence otherwise USA would have been in anarchy right after its inception.

 

EndogenousRebel

We're all trying our best. Aren't we?
Local time
Yesterday 11:51 PM
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
1,053
-->
Location
Narnia
Does it matter whether mass shootings are on the rise? I think it does, but a stable rate is almost as bad as an increasing one. I mean, what's worse? The steady increase of previously rare shootings (Mother Jones) or unchanged levels of relatively common killings (FBI; USA Today)? Either way, what is revealed is that part of the challenge is to speak the same language regarding the underlying nature of the problem. Defining "mass shooting" seems like a simple matter, but it sits at the complicated intersection of many questions: Who did it? Where did they do it? Who they did it to? Why did they do it?

The risk is to cherry pick the data based on definitions of the problem that unproblematically lead to our pre-chosen favored policies. An additional problem is that a puzzle such as this requires great scientific nuance, but it is precisely in these situations when we are most likely to throw science out the window and rely on moral guidance. This isn't necessarily a vice; to proceed without moral compass on this question seems both misguided and naive. The challenge is to proceed with both heavy heart and open eyes. Toward that end, I have offered no answers, but rather some thoughts meant merely to productively complicate a picture that I think many of us on all sides believe to be all too simple.
Sounds like our problems are increasing on top of problems we already had. I wonder what is the cause of "common killings" and if that's in any way connected to "previously rare shootings".
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 2:21 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
6,247
-->
I don't have time to do this but just be aware that comparing stats between countries is often folly. Different countries have different ways of tracking stats and it can take intense dedication to compare apples to apples. It would be easy for one area to have a different definition of "mass shooting" in order to massage their stats. I know this to be the case for other crimes though it's not directly analogical.

Also, there is definitely propaganda at work, I can guarantee you that on both sides there will be people wielding false or misleading statistics.

I would be surprised if school shootings in the USA are just media bias but I'm not really sure where I stand in regard to gun ownership.
 

Cognisant

Prolific Member
Local time
Yesterday 5:51 PM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
9,828
-->
Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Also, there is definitely propaganda at work, I can guarantee you that on both sides there will be people wielding false or misleading statistics.
This is absolutely the case, the NRA will stop at nothing to protect their profits, that they're getting a few articles written and definitions changed to obfuscate things is practically certain.
 

Thurlor

Nutter
Local time
Today 2:51 PM
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
627
-->
Location
Victoria, Australia
@Hadoblado
You are right about the differences in statistical collection methods between countries. Just as an example, I only found out yesterday that the US counts suicides amongst gun crimes/violence. Considering that they account for anywhere between 50-65% of the rates, the US would be bound to have higher gun violence rates than countries that do not include suicides in the stats. Granted that is only looking at gun crimes/violence in general but I wonder if they have similar wacky inclusions in mass shooting stats.

And now I am wondering why the US consistently does this to themselves with various statistical measures. Another similar example would be the US's high infant mortality rate. Of course they will have a higher rate than equivalent countries if they include premature births and late term miscarriages in their figures.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 2:21 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
6,247
-->
Can I ask why you're looking for the specific conclusions you are? Do you have an investment in America not being as bad as it's made out to be?
 

Thurlor

Nutter
Local time
Today 2:51 PM
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
627
-->
Location
Victoria, Australia
I have a desire to question the narrative presented by any country and its media. When people claim the US is the best country in the world I argue that it isn't and when people claim that it is the worst country in the world I also argue that it isn't.

I am just fed up with people with a hard-on either for or against the US. So many people I know hate the US with a passion yet have nothing to say about countries that are demonstrably worse.

Maybe I'm too contrarian and questioning for polite society. I don't know.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 2:21 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
6,247
-->
I guess it feels like you're setting out to find the answer to support the position you want to take rather than just letting the evidence speak for itself?

But yeah, people repeating the same stale rhetoric in favour of their beliefs is boring and it's way more fun to hold the other side against them than to agree. It's also more interesting to find counter-intuitive evidence and try and figure out why it might be the case.
 

BurnedOut

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 10:21 AM
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Messages
1,183
-->
I don't think that the publicization of mass shootings in the US is greater than that of most countries. Maybe some shit-hole countries hide their figures but that is a different thing.
It derogatively high. Take into consideration the current shooting incident in Texas. The police's action were irrational, sure but I don't think the whole world has the privilege to shit on it. Panic makes people do unexpected things. People don't respect the police and the police are similarly aggressive and the conflict escalates for pretty much no reason. There was no need to sensationalize such a poignant situation. These arseholes don't think twice about the implications of their actions on the people affect, causing people to get angry at their governments for things that were not in their (government's) hands and causing political deadlocks which harms everybody. Such things ultimately benefit the private sector who is encourage to enable both the sides. For instance, Facebook quickly consolidated it's position before it got completely castrated. It slurped Instagram and WhatsApp and people thought nothing about it when it had far greater consequences on the world. Musky Daddy niggled his arse into the world and an explosion of crypto occured in the background. Myanmar's incident got forgetten, the siege of Hong Kong by China had zero repercussions on China. Dictators across the globe established their legitimacy and the war in Ukraine is effectively getting ignored due to violence the governments and civilians find themselves embroiled in. For the things that don't matter, there is maximum time devoted and for things that do, everybody's in seventh heaven with cheap politics. Even now after the leaked documents of Uighur muslims being treated like pigs, nobody is really interested in it while the internet beguiles you into reading shit about how Musk is a genius and why the aged Bill Gates is peddling some bullshit which can probably cause more financial volatility by encouraging speculation at the stock exchange. So many financial bubbles formed and burst in the span of 3 years, millions of people slipped below the poverty line, starvation and violence suddenly high and anarchy at the financial market and media still acts like it is blameless.
 

scorpiomover

The little professor
Local time
Today 5:51 AM
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
2,410
-->
it's hard for me to give a straight answer. For instance, how does one measure gun laws in a country like Somalia?
Same as the USA and every other country, yo.

And some countries might have stricter gun laws but poorer policing and therefore more black market guns and more violence.
Yes. But the question is about gun laws, not poorer policing.

Personally I believe in the utility of bearing arms(don't own a gun rn but grew up with 'em), yet giving a gun to a murderous madman is unwise unless that gun is pointed at your foes.
Judging by what happens on TV when one of the characters gives a gun to a murderous madman who points it at their foes, the madman will turn around and point it at the person who gave him and the gun.

These cases all have their own nuances and remember, America is big. 350+ million people, so hoping that violence and massacre never occurs among such a group of people means little,
True.

total control of population is most enticing way to prevent such events,
True, which is why gun control laws are so popular. Most people online seem to think that if you can take away guns from people, they can't stand up to the police, and so become controllable.

unless the government itself is complicit in massacre(Rwanda, Third Reich).
There's no point in taking away guns, if people are still not afraid of the police.

So massacres like this are necessary to convince people that they must obey the police, or they'll get chopped into pieces with machetes, or gassed to death in a death camp.
 

Rook

enter text
Local time
Today 7:51 AM
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
2,457
-->
Location
look at flag
@scorpiomover yep bleak but 100% on point, correct on inability to fully encompass situation in any country, data lacking and manifold.

RE: question being about gun laws, i analyze a law by the power behind it. if a mad tyrant on an anarcho-earth decrees 'no more guns' but every underground fabricatum continues printing them by the truckload then i don't consider that to be much of a law.
 

scorpiomover

The little professor
Local time
Today 5:51 AM
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
2,410
-->
@scorpiomover yep bleak but 100% on point, correct on inability to fully encompass situation in any country, data lacking and manifold.
I was just having fun, making ironic observations.

Nice to know I'm on point, though. Kudos for pointing that out to me.

RE: question being about gun laws, i analyze a law by the power behind it. if a mad tyrant on an anarcho-earth decrees 'no more guns' but every underground fabricatum continues printing them by the truckload then i don't consider that to be much of a law.
It seems that the general online view is that there's about 400 million guns in the USA.

Number of registered weapons in the United States in 2021, by state
Texas has the most with a cool million.
Florida is #2 with about 500,000.
The rest all have less.
Struggled to add them up properly, due to the site's format.
But clearly, it can't be more than 1 million for Texas, and 49 * 500,000 for the other 49 states. So it's less than 25.5 million, which is 6.375% of 400 million guns in total.

So 93.625% of guns in the USA are unregistered.
 
Top Bottom