we'll either become terminators, synthetic humans, or mutants

[sushi]

hopefully terminator is much better

synthetic or artificial humans and mutants are prone to disaster due to genetic manipulation

 

[Cognisant]

I have a preference for a fully mechanical body (i.e. Samuel Hayden from Doom 2016) because I'd enjoy the durability that gives me but I have to admit a fleshier body is always going to be more luxurious. A hybrid of the two like the Terminator with its flesh on the outside and machine on the inside is pretty much ideal because you can both enjoy having flesh but still discard it like a sweaty tracksuit at a moment's notice.

 

[Marbles]

I have an attachment to flesh, probably sentimental, so I'm hoping for genetic engineering. I have to wonder if there is any point in trans-humanism, though. If we are to replace humanity with engineered consciousness, why not just commit collective suicide, and assume there is already more advanced life in the universe.

How slow must the transition from human to trans-human/alien be, for us to feel like some essence of ours is being preserved? I guess it helps me if we remain flesh through the process, at least.

I think @Cognisant made a thread once about what life would look like if some parameters changed. What intelligent life could be on different planets, based on biological and physical constraints, or something like that. I don't remember the details, but I remember it was interesting. Would be fun to see a similar analysis of the advantages of organic and synthetic life.

 

[Cognisant]

What you feel is electrical/chemical signals interpreted by your brain so insofar as you have an effective neural interface a computer could totally convince you that you're eating ramen in a side street izakaya in downtown Tokyo (i.e. The Matrix) so it's not far of a stretch that insofar as your robotic body has the sensors you can enjoy the same fidelity of experience as having flesh and blood, indeed the fidelity could be even higher.

Bionic eyes could enable you to see in infrared and ultraviolet, see things far away like you're looking through a 16x scope or zoom in on the microscopic flora and fauna living on your fingertip, after experiencing that going back to biological eyes with their blind spots and your vision going fuzzy when you turn your head would feel like going blind.

I have an attachment to flesh, probably sentimental, so I'm hoping for genetic engineering. I have to wonder if there is any point in trans-humanism, though. If we are to replace humanity with engineered consciousness, why not just commit collective suicide, and assume there is already more advanced life in the universe.

Well aren't you a debbie downer.

 

[Marbles]

I'm not saying synthetic emulation of human consciousness would deteriorate qualia. I'm saying the whole idea is romanticising species wide suicide, so we might as well yield to sentimentality and keep our meatsuits, if we are so inclined.

I'm all for it. Bring on the Kool Aid and let's get this party started.

 

[Cognisant]

As much as the nihilistic sentiment of mass suicide appeals to me I'm far too ego driven to accept easy way out, not unless I'm already screwed.

Having your brain scanned and an artificial consciousness created from it is avoiding death in a very abstract sense, if you live for some purpose your copy will continue the pursuit of that purpose as you would have which (if you're a very purpose driven person) may be all you really need.

Being mostly ego driven I would want my copy to identify with my identity, if it considers itself to be me then that's good enough for me to accept that it is, assuming it is similar enough to me that I don't have a reason to think it's just delusional.

But that's not really necessary, you could conceivably make the transition to a post human state without ever really dying through the extensive use of neural prosthetics, replacing the brain bit by bit so that you can maintain a continuity of consciousness throughout the transition.

 

[Marbles]

As much as the nihilistic sentiment of mass suicide appeals to me I'm far too ego driven to accept easy way out, not unless I'm already screwed.

Hehe, yeah. I'm sympathetic to your solution to Alzheimer, Bob Bummer.

Having your brain scanned and an artificial consciousness created from it is avoiding death in a very abstract sense, if you live for some purpose your copy will continue the pursuit of that purpose as you would have which (if you're a very purpose driven person) may be all you really need.

Your mind would have to change dramatically to accommodate the increased sensory resolution you described earlier, though. Being able to process that much data requires a very powerful working memory if you are to avoid psychosis and seizures. I doubt much improvement is possible while preserving identity. You could slowly transition into an alien, and retain the illusion of an uninterrupted consciousness, but when your identity becomes that intangible, questions about what your ego is really serving become very relevant - to me at least.

Being mostly ego driven I would want my copy to identify with my identity, if it considers itself to be me then that's good enough for me to accept that it is, assuming it is similar enough to me that I don't have a reason to think it's just delusional.

I doubt it would stay similar for long. Why would it cease improving itself? You could program it to, but personally I'd feel that defeats the purpose of trans-humanism. In for a penny, in for a pound.

But that's not really necessary, you could conceivably make the transition to a post human state without ever really dying through the extensive use of neural prosthetics, replacing the brain bit by bit so that you can maintain a continuity of consciousness throughout the transition.

I'm not sure death is a term that serves any purpose in this context. We could define it in a way that gives us the comfort of being alive and continuous through our transformation, but that feels a little too spiritual for my taste.

I have been thinking along the same lines in the context of longevity, though. Body parts are relatively easy to clone and replace, but what about the brain? As long as we replace small enough parts of it at a time, I imagine memories and consciousness could be preserved, and the process would be psychologically palatable. When I look at the world at this high a resolution (I hope that makes sense. Level of abstraction, maybe), though, concepts like life and death tend to loose their meaning unless you introduce religion.

 

[Cognisant]

If you really want to split hairs we humans are fundamentally insane, consciousness necessitates suffering and suicide is perfectly rational, our egos are just how our biology tricks us into prioritizing self preservation. You're not real, you never were real, you're just a figment of your own imagination. Our egocentric language isn't equipped to convey these concepts properly but I assume you get the gist of it.

 

[Marbles]

No, I quite agree with you, which is why I'm suggesting a discussion about whether transition entails death is entirely dependent on how we define death (like the meme is getting at), and therefore seems worthwhile only as an exploration of the phenomenon, not as an endeavor to reach "truth". I've been fascinated by and a proponent for trans-humanism since I was a kid. The fact that it is species wide suicide according to many of our intuitions is interesting, and demonstrates that when you look at the world with a high enough resolution, a lot of our concepts disintegrate, or at least seize to be practical. That leads to insights of the kind you list, which are usually philosophical mumbo jumbo, but in this context seem pertinent.

 

[Cognisant]

Have you ever woken up with a brief period of amnesia?

For a few moments you don't know who you are, where you are or what's going on, but then you do and if you dwell on it there's an unsettling realization that this probably occurs every morning. That before you remember who you are you aren't that person, you're just a blank slate, what if you woke up with someone else's memories would you even be able to tell or would you assume you've woken up in the wrong body?

What if someone else woke with your memories?

What if you lost your memories, would you still be you?

 

[Marbles]

I'm familiar with the line of reasoning, of course there is no valid answer. An example of a concept which breaks down when examined in high resolution.

If you are curious about my model of the mind, I think of it as an operating system in constant change. You could certainly upload it to another medium than an organic brain. Memory is only a part of the operating system. Transplanting it to another mind is akin to moving the mast of a ship to another ship. Is the new ship now the old ship? I dunno, take your pick. I think we are both familiar with this stuff. I'm not sure if we can skip it, and still have something to discuss.

Anyways, go team transhumanism! My luxurious meatsuit will get all the ladies, I'm just saying. I vote we turn humanity into a superorganism.

 

[Black Rose]

There are two places necessarily which are the core of the brain. The thalamus/brainstem and the amygdala/hippocampus. The cortex is programmed by these two systems. They rewire the whole system. Plasticity is something we need. we can replace the cortex as long as it is plastic. The other two systems need updating as a hardware system for programming the new cortex in an optimized fashion.

The way the brain rewires/programs itself efficiently is what we want.
We want self-control ad hyperfocus of generating new creative thoughts.

 

[Kormak]

e_e I don't want to be a robot... I want to fuck women and eat spicy kebab..
Call me when at version 2.0 and you have solved these issues.

 

[Cognisant]

Will you settle for being able to eat women and fuck spicy kebabs?

 

[Kormak]

Will you settle for being able to eat women and fuck spicy kebabs?

Maybe if we turn women into kebabs, add lots of spice... 2 birds 1 stone.

(its just a prank bro...)

No man, I want to be Homo Sapiens Invictus not a tin-can. Preferably without flawed human genetic engineering, only through overcoming conflict and strife.

 

[Rebis]

Well with a robotic body we would have negligible senescence, but we would lose advanced sensory information from matter interacting with our skin. In terms of pleasure, a robotic body would be, well... robotic.

Something like a neural overlay, this can be defined as a cyborg component that interacts with brain function, would be the solution. A robot and a biological organism operate entirely differently, transistors are relatively simple but biological components are complex. There's an endless amount of conversions going in our bodies with vitamins, minerals, their traces and other chemical compounds that it would be very hard to modify a living being with mechanical properties, so the best function would be an overlay that helps with processing information (We have this with a computer/phone).

A different input method such as using our eyes to aim at a letter, with a simplified instruction manual for the lack of dexterity with eyes: for writing, a blink could indicate a new line, double blink ending a sentence and so on.

Mutations are hard to pinpoint, there are so many interdependent genes that few have been directly linked to a physiological property. Most are associative, I think technology will take precedence over here with the logical and sequential process a computer goes through, wherein it's understandable from transistors to high level programming languages.

 

[sushi]

There are two places necessarily which are the core of the brain. The thalamus/brainstem and the amygdala/hippocampus. The cortex is programmed by these two systems. They rewire the whole system. Plasticity is something we need. we can replace the cortex as long as it is plastic. The other two systems need updating as a hardware system for programming the new cortex in an optimized fashion.

The way the brain rewires/programs itself efficiently is what we want.
We want self-control ad hyperfocus of generating new creative thoughts.

the brain will seperate itself from the body , stored in some computer server when the conscious uploading becomes possible. then the mind can seperate and store itself away from the body.

then it pretty much becomes mind creates/builds a superior body, a superior body creates a superior mind, and to infinitum.

e_e I don't want to be a robot... I want to fuck women and eat spicy kebab..
Call me when at version 2.0 and you have solved these issues.

the human body is full of weakness.

 

[Rebis]

To be honest I don't think there will be much more humans in the future. I don't think we'll by cyborgs, we will just have machines do everything. We are not integral to the economic system, we will just become passive observers to a machinistic system of interlocking cogs, gears and screws. This is the limit of the biological bodies we own.
Power has already transitioned from our bodies to the technology we yield, we're technologists at heart. The next evolution for hominids will be Homo-sentio, to percieve endlessly but not take action.

And in the far future, if there is one, the population will be reduced to a small, scientifically oriented race. Homo-sciencus, or alternatively, Homo-ludens.

 

[Tenacity]

This is the limit of the biological bodies we own.

Elon Musk is on it already, as are others... Neuralink.

We've already transcended many of our biological limits and we are going to continue to do so.

Technology has been mostly a tool. Sure we can see risk and threat, but we can't let that fear hold us back just because we see that it affects our identities. We have to plan to mitigate that risk but balance it with the overarching vision that we have to choose how we want it to affect our identities now and later.

We can avoid technology if we desire (I find myself needing to "detox" from the influence of technology sometimes) but it's not good to run from the truth of the future in the long-run.

 

[Rebis]

This is the limit of the biological bodies we own.

Elon Musk is on it already, as are others... Neuralink.

We've already transcended many of our biological limits and we are going to continue to do so.

Technology has been mostly a tool. Sure we can see risk and threat, but we can't let that fear hold us back just because we see that it affects our identities. We have to plan to mitigate that risk but balance it with the overarching vision that we have to choose how we want it to affect our identities now and later.

We can avoid technology if we desire (I find myself needing to "detox" from the influence of technology sometimes) but it's not good to run from the truth of the future in the long-run.

It depends on your definition of transcendance. We're bound by biology for the most part, conscious hasn't been separated and technological evolutions improve our life but ultimately they do not change our physiology. I'm aware of neuralink but it's in it's infancy, there are so many issues with electrode implanting, not solely the one he mentioned in his presentation earlier this year "it won't penetrate blood vessels". Our transcendance is purely technological, we haven't been able to replace axons, dendrites and neurons with transistors so we're still bound by our own biology.

 

[sushi]

 

[Morrow]

Overall I would say that it would be better off for us to find a happy medium between the two. Replace certain parts of ourselves with robotic parts to increase our natural abilities while still retaining our fleshy bodies to allow for different pleasures that require a fleshy body to enjoy. Becoming full robotic would be almost no fun I would have to say, and I would much rather just get a couple bionic parts.