Structural Cognitive Deficiency

[Black Rose]

Having a brain state without understanding the cybernetic principle of feedback loops is the same as trying to understand the weather "states" without understanding the concept of thermodynamics. Yes, you can measure all the states of the weather but without knowing thermodynamics you can NEVER predict the weather. The same for states of the brain without feedback. Feedback is a principle just like thermodynamics, thermodynamic is not the oversimplification of the weather it is the principle for why we measure its states in the first place. So calling cybernetic feedback an oversimplification is ludicrous because it is the principle of why the brain does what it does. Measuring anything without understanding the principles behind it is nothing more than counting all the rocks on Earth without understanding Newton's three laws. This is the flaw of empiricism. Go ahead and count every atom in the weather, and measure every state, you will never understand as long as you have no core principle. Thermodynamic principles = an oversimplification of the weather in your view. Just like Cybernetics to you is an oversimplification of the brain in your view.

There are multiple states the brain can be in. We call this a mental/brain state.

View attachment 8001

Sure you can say deviations exist in the weather but thermodynamics is not an oversimplification of why things happen in the weather.

We can measure any place on earth that deviates from any other place on earth and have no idea that heat exchange causes the weather thermodynamically.

Without the concept of thermodynamics, you can say Thor controls the weather.

 

[Black Rose]

In simplest terms:

Why can we understand the weather: Thermodynamics

Why can we understand the brain: Cybernetics

Neither are oversimplifications, both are principles.

 

[Black Rose]

It could be that no one here understands what engineering is.

cybernetics is a specific kind of understanding of how things work,

dynamic systems cannot be dissected into only their parts

maybe I set my expectations too high.

 

[Black Rose]

I guess people at the top truly are evil.

if the drugs could be stopped they would be stopped

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I guess people at the top truly are evil.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

dynamic systems cannot be dissected into only their parts

Really, it's about entropy. The more unstable a system the more entropy.

We can build around paradigms of support, but our postulated of ideas serve to bring a narrative to a system that needs no explanation, because it persists endlessly.

I can grab a handful of sand and drop it in a cup of water and the particle physics and fluid flow requires no discrimination nor declaration of a computer.

They just are. You want to put boundaries around where things begin and end so be it.

My heart started beating. My consciousness has little control over this. You'd expect a feedback loop to some have complete top down control, but I obviously cannot cease my own brain function even if I wanted to.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Ugh just fyi I never said feedback loops or whatever lable we give them are not important.

That said can you see how loops don't actually explain everything?

There is a loop in our body, when you step on something sharp you lift your leg quicker than your brain can react. This loop is inserted in the lower back region.
That cuts out our brain to having to react to every dangerous thing we might step on.
You can literally step on glass, and you will not cut your foot, if your other foot is on the ground. Provided the reflex is fast enough.

So loops are absolutely important. We can know them they are there, but how were they formed and better question is how do they function in relationships to make intellect and so on.
Some academic makes a new word and needs to write a paper. There is no new understanding of the topic, so he inserts feed back loop into the old knowledge, now it looks new.
Is IT> though new? Or is it what we already know made sound smart.

 

[Black Rose]

You'd expect a feedback loop to some have complete top down control, but I obviously cannot cease my own brain function even if I wanted to.

why do you implement me in believing in crazy magical stuff?

because cybernetic is something you think is dumb? or am I dumb?

There is no new understanding of the topic, so he inserts feed back loop into the old knowledge, now it looks new.

The brain can be understood with cybernetics, it will not take hundreds of years to understand the brain then.

-

Just to be fair: what besides these principles (cybernetics) is required to understand the brain?

 

[ZenRaiden]

The brain can be understood with cybernetics, it will not take hundreds of years to understand the brain then.

Maybe not.
But until you understand something you never know how long it will take to understand.

My guess, is that understanding the brain is lot easier nowdays, as there is more tangible facts to go on.
We can see real time how brains function. That gives window into how the brain does stuff. Its still human act of interpreting what is seen to get what is the brain doing.

Just saying the obvious, but am not sure what you try to do other than say that its possible. Which I do agree with.
Anything is possible.

 

[Black Rose]

Scientists did not understand why life acts against entropy in the 1800's

We know now that life has a regulation system.

When energy goes into the cell the cell uses it to keep stable.

So too much water means it is pumped out and too little water then it is pumped in.

This works for food waste and all things that keep the cell from falling apart.

A brain is the same but instead of local chemicals, it uses electrical cables to move the organism.

because the brain is for motion the wires must adapt to fast signals coming into them

This means they must change but not too much, they must have memories to learn what helps to survive.

As I said: parents of humans help the human brain learn social skills.

Those skills are about the brain understanding what motions it should do and what others do. yet because the brain must not fall apart rewiring must be limited

The back and forth of signals inside the brain must not lose memories and must accept new memories. This creates heat, too much and it burns, too little and it decays.

The main process of this back and forth from the parents creates the ego.

The ego is that which is the accumulated back-and-forth signals for existing in the real world.

The frontal lobes, amygdala, and hippocampus mediate this back-and-forth learning and storing/retrieving process.

no one read the link but I will post it again:

this is what the brain does to imagine new ways to solve problems

Upfront and personal: Scientists model human reasoning in the brain's prefrontal cortex

Upfront and personal: Scientists model human reasoning in the brain's prefrontal cortex

(Medical Xpress)—Located at the forward end of the brain's frontal lobe, the mammalian prefrontal cortex (PFC) is the seat of many of our most unique cognitive abilities – collectively referred to as executive function – including planning, decision-making, and coordinating thoughts and actions...

medicalxpress.com

 

[EndogenousRebel]

I never in my life expected to be accused of straw-manning an argument about beliefs I have no other way to observe, but to prompt a response from you. Do you not see how deranged that is?

Your idea is cool. Cybernetics. fuck yeah.. Greek. You should have more cool ideas like it. Good job, you won idea of the day today.

 

[Black Rose]

ok, I admit I got mad but you need to understand that I was trying to explain without knowing how much I needed to explain because of the Ti -Te difference between us.

It seemed to me you had just ignored everything.

So if you need observations of cybernetics and how they relate to the brain I would first say that white and grey matter exist. These are the main loops.

And I would refer you to Norbert Wiener.

He was the man who developed the theory behind it (Cybernetics), I would say all systems that refuse to fall apart need a way to send signals back to themselves to respond to what is the process of homeostatic equilibrium. Biology is 3 dimensional but that is not going to diminish what is the importance of feedback. I am sure you have the ability to look into this, that feedback is important to biology and without it, science cannot even begin to have an understanding of these systems as stable wholistic units.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

How ironic that you are insisting on the devine principles of feedback loops, while refusing to take feedback.

 

[Black Rose]

How ironic that you are insisting on the devine principles of feedback loops, while refusing to take feedback.

I am not refusing currently so what should I be doing?

 

[Black Rose]

I guess I was thinking that there is a general reason the brain works.

I was not thinking how we would differentiate brain functions.

I know for instance that I cannot draw, but my sister can (in photorealism)

This may make people have connections that grew from different genetic and environmental conditions which lead to abilities not the same in others.

Statistics is not my way, or I have no way of saying what forces in the brain are able to be known such that we can categorize people in their life outcomes.

But I would think that the attractor state of these categories would be able to be mathematically defined.

If I am not using one part of my brain and the other parts are strong then by the functional connectivity, the oscillations between the strong and weak parts would be variable for the observed phenomenon of what they do in a lab setting given all the cognitive tests that exist.

Why can I draw things like this:

But not faces:

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Well. I guess I'll point out that even the Author you referenced to me makes it clear exactly what cybernetics is and how it is relevant to todays era.

You seem to just think we can just make remarks about something and feed into your idea. I'm asking how you are testing it. There are plenty of example machines that showcase what cybernetics is. You understand cybernetics yourself right?

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Why don't you get an IT certification?

There is plenty of information, and I'm sure that if you aspire to be an engineer it would be a good entry way into that. There are plenty of resources online for free.

More entry level things are stuff like AV Engineering. Like those people who do broadcasting behind the scenes stuff.

There is a lot of value in broadening your idea of information and how we use information. Sometimes that information can be an encryption key, sometimes it's a video feed, sometimes it's the traffic on a website.

You can diagram anything, even this conversation. I'm just not sure how you want us to contribute to whatever it is your thinking about, I'm trying to get an angle on what exactly the application would look like.

That book is a theoretical analysis. What do your diagrams have strengths as opposed to other diagrams?

There is no perfect model, so you make a model that is "good enough" for a specific thing. Doing this with the brain, is kinda meh, since so much is open to interpretation, we will have to consume your assumptions about biology.

So you have to have a broad knowledge base of biology and illustrate how your model is diverse from standard models, and you know they're good if they mimic the function other models do, but also bring that edge in whatever its strenght is.

 

[Black Rose]

Just so you know:

The first image is from when I was 12 the second of the face I drew at 33

Here is another image from 12 - It was in 6th grade when I wanted to go to MIT

At age 12 my IQ was 125

Currently spatial is 125, Verbal 130, working memory 100, and Processing speed 100

You can draw conclusions from those numbers if you know psychology better than me which I assume you do.

My brother was into gadgets and still is but I started to get away from those things at 14 years old when I got more abstract in my thinking. I was less interested in toys when I realized I could not make lightsabers and I could not make Spiderman web glue, spiderman bone breaks no matter how much spider DNA is inside him. I also knew that much of Batman's stuff did not work and if it did I was too old to remember drawing that stuff at 17 years old even if I kept those drawings.

When I got into high school is when I got deep into understanding A.I. "theory" to some extent but as I never went to college (only a semester) I did not have much mentorship to do anything or know how computers worked. In 2009 I had the Wii and played SWTOR (Star Wars the Old Republic) and Splinter Cell Double Agent. Those were cool games to me but I could not make video games or anything like this where I wanted to put/test my ideas in.

Cybernetics is keeping things within or outside certain bounds via self-monitoring of where you are at in regard to those bounds. The brain keeps itself within some boundaries as well. The cognitive part is mechanistic in that way. Where knowing what it can and cannot do builds up as representations of coordinated actions.

So as I have understood it, everything works together.

It is only a matter of describing that coordination biologically to some mathematical standard.

Whereas machines may need to do it in a different coordinated way by another low-resolution standard.

They may play videogames we create that show they have some intelligence.

-

That which is consciousness is based on self-reference (I-ness)

I knew this in 2018 when I saw the video of CoCo the Gorilla pointing to her face when she was sad her kitten died.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Looks like you dedicated your time into things that interested you. At that age, that is definitely encouraging to see.

Not to be rude or pretentious, but I get the sense that this will lead into you saying that post onset psychiatric illness you became a different person. Is that where this is going?

It's hard to be an information worker. Our monkey brains weren't designed for it, so someone with psychiatric issues is going to struggle that much harder conforming to such abstract ideals that "normal" people can barely conform to.

IT, deals in hardware, that is why I am suggesting it.

This guy goes through it all. Once you stop visualizing information on a 2D plane, and start applying that logic to responsive networks, I'm sure you'll see the opportunity there. If it's something that genuinely interests you.

When you see something in front of your very eyes have a real-time response, it just hits dopamine in the brain, it's a very rewarding experience for example, building your own computer and having it work the first time. At the very least you'll learn a lot of things.

I don't understand why people tell themselves that their best years are behind them. Maybe if you're 70, and every day has physical pain because getting old feels like that, but there will still be moments that you enjoy. I'm js, after 80 everyone should be given a stash of opium, you deserve it.

 

[fractalwalrus]

So why is it a bad thing to clean your room?

When I was 6 years old I remember my dad had a trailer with cigarettes everywhere.

When my brother became my dad's age he was 6 times as filthy and damaged my mom's property by at least $20,000

My sister did drugs and had sex with more than 10 men, then she got pregnant and was set straight.

so why does this happen, because people are spiritually broken inside. And the physiology of addiction.

Addiction happens because it makes you feel good and makes you feel normal.

And like not taking showers you feel fine because there is a threshold for pain tolerance.

Some people just have that ability to take in poisons and toxins and not care because of tolerance in physiology.

So why is this a moral taboo, "cleaning your room is bad"? because it means you start seeing people as they are.

That means you need to start looking at the real problems in biology that cause dirty rooms.

Instead of just saying "Hey people eat shit because they have bad taste buds" we blame people for being unhealthy.

We blame people for doing drugs instead of looking at what is inside their cellular metabolism.

And if we looked inside the metabolisms of these people we would need to blame the healthcare system.

But instead, we blame people for being dirty in a different way, morally they are rotten not because of biology but because we cannot do anything to stop the problem. Stopping the problem requires looking at the healthcare system and the prison system and the political system and the food industry. it costs money to make people heathy and if we needed to make people healthy that would mean we need to stop certain people from making them unhealthy.

What happened after the civil rights movement was called the Southern Strategy. This would make it possible to keep black people down. First, if you cannot use paper tests to keep them from voting you instead gerrymander them. Then you use the CIA to import drugs into the most vulnerable communities and on and on.

That is exactly what you get when people do not want clean rooms because certain people have dark skin and you cannot blame them for being this way because if you did then The CIA would need to be taken to court and we cannot do that and we cannot tell people that drug is bad because then san francisco would need to reinvent healthcare system to take money away from silicon valley mega billionaires and corporations. people have the right to fail is what Sam Altman said.

So the rich created this thing where they do not want poor people and black people to have money to help them with mental health and other such things. Instead, we say cleaning rooms is bad because if you clean your room you will see that the rich keep you down and the CIA and Silicon Valley. And all people that want you broken and a human being. Clean Rooms = Oppression so let's keep people in the dirt so we keep all the money.

Basically, in society, broken human beings were caused by many factors in the United States - This created a society of conspiracy theories where the government was bad. The Kenedy assassination and all things that led people to distrust the government. PSTD is what happens all the time in the USA to all people all the time. Vietnam was a scam to fight communism yet we gave them all the industry via Henery Kissinger. and we also said that after 9/11 we needed to stop the terrorists from destroying our way of life, bush said: "Buy more stuff to stop them". Mission accomplished and for 20 years were were in Afghanistan growing drugs to sell for profit.

Yes, we need to keep rooms dirty,

This is what we need to do as good patriotic citizens.

I would say that in order to argue that cleaning your room is bad, one must argue what "bad" means.

I would also pose the question: what does it mean to be spiritually broken in the first place? Are you certain that addictions are the only cause of messy rooms? There is a facet in the Big 5 personality theory called conscientiousness which contains a subfacet that relates to organization and cleanliness. What if some people are inherently wired to be "dirtier" than others? I do not think the Big 5 claims to make a truth statement regarding the determining factors of conscientiousness, but from our current understanding, there are usually genetic or environmental factors that account for behaviors. If this is what you mean by "spiritually broken," then it could indeed be argued that one's environment has had a direct impact upon how conscientious an individual is. Who wins when it comes to these differences, btw? The conscientious individual is the one that exerts will upon the world (by cleaning the room, and organizing the room cleaning advocates to speak on their behalf), while those who do not clean the rooms tend not to do anything. Whose will dominates the culture, when the pregnant individuals and delinquent bill payers cannot afford the cost of boosting their own voices?

Do you really think we have a police force and perfectly manicured lawns and a military that enforces conscientious behavior because the people with the dirty rooms won the propaganda game? Or is it more likely that the people who could not control their own desire to be conscientious won by promoting their own personalities with their megaphones while the room-dirtiers sat idly by, because that is what they do?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

determining factors of conscientiousness

scruffy versus neat