Some dudes take on Feminism

[Base groove]

Wasn't sure where to put this video (which sub-forum) but I did want to post it to try and get some feedback. It's about 10 minutes long. Want to see what anybody has to say about it. (oh the missing apostrophe in the title is intentional)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUiSw9jP7HM

Basically it's an argument between two folks in my city about the way a local men's rights activist group clashed with some protesting feminists last summer. Some of it is boring I mainly focused on the debate ... the straw-man arguments, the fallacies, the emotional appeals ... etc. I don't have an opinion though.

Main reasons I posted this:

- What types are these guys? I believe they are ENFP and ENTP or both ENTP. The one who is potentially ENFP (Ryjin) is a good friend of mine. I have always been undecided as to whether he is ENTP or ENFP. I don't really think he made the greatest arguments at times (in the video), too many appeals to emotion.

- What do you think about the arguments they made? Are Ryjin's emotional points valid or did he get straight-up smothered by the other guy? Did the other guy make straw-man arguments?

- Any opinions on the subject-at-hand (feminism vs men's rights)? Is it a valid dichotomy or are they fighting over nothing??

 

[Brontosaurie]

what was that crap he said in the beginning about "i said i loved sluts and they took it as a counter-protest whoah who would have figured" dressed in a "men's right" shirt? did i miss something or is he a dickhead?

 

[Base groove]

the other guy def. made strawman arguments.

what was that crap he said in the beginning about "i said i loved sluts and they took it as a counter-protest whoah who would have figured" dressed in a "men's right" shirt? did i miss something or is he a dickhead?

perhaps both, but ... I think his premise was that feminism is for equality and he demonstrated not to show support but to ridicule the perceived hypocrisy/stupidity of the mass... under the guise of showing support.

So in one sense, Ryjin's initial purported outrage (the video which this is a reply to) was a valid emotional reaction,

I guess the fair thing to do would be to include the original video not just the response.... but I thought the response supplied adequate contextual theme. It's likely that he cherry-picked Ryjin's weakest arguments to straw-man and woo his audience.

 

[bemused]

hmm. I will have to think this through.

I'm probably somewhere between the man-hating, hairy pit, ball-busting lesbian butch, and the suburban stepford wife in terms of my views on feminism and 'gender roles'.

I love women all around though.

 

[Pyropyro]

Personalities -> I doubt that they're T's. Both parties are quite emotional in my opinion. The other guy's appeal to "logic" (he quote mines, baits people and do strawman arguments; not exactly the right tools for a logical debate) isn't quite convincing especially if he's emotionally charged himself.

Honestly, they both exclaim openess but they come with closed fists. Really, I suggest a fistfight first to blow off some steam. Probably they'll be more diplomatic once they get those feelings out of their systems.

Video games -> yeah, it should be done in moderation. Any addiction can mess up your brain.

circumcision -> uh okay... I think its either a cultural or possibly even medical choice. Anyways, I think no one has the right to judge another person's genitals unless they're expecting to grind theirs with said genitals.

Ryjin's emotional points -> in a formal debate he'll lose big time. However, there's more at stake here than simply winning a debate. Emotional appeals are good calls to arms but we need cold and logical strategies to make said calls a reality. Reason and feelings must work together.

one $700 check problem -> Improve your fundraising technqiues. Even college students from a newly Industrialized country like ours can raise a bigger amount of funds than that. You're not honoring your hero's memory if all you got to do is whine about the injustice of the world.

Closing argument -> Translation: I'll continue to whine until you do something for me. Seriously, if something needs changing on your life YOU ACT AND CHANGE IT. Don't let others or the opposition set the pace for your life.

Feminism and men's rights -> It's mostly a waste of resources for both camps to listen to their radical members. The radicals are usually just bullies finding some sort of excuse to express their hate for other people.

Why not focus on the issues that matters for both parties? I'm not that familiar with your local culture but the Safe areas suggestion looks like good start for helping abused people. It will take some time to iron out differences but I'm sure cooler heads can make a workable agreement that benefits both abused males and females.

 

[deadpixel]

ENTX, they seem to have ideas that they like to express freely and publicly(E), I would say N over S because one is wearing dirty cargo pants and the other is trying to look cool by wearing a blazer with a skeleton t-shirt but its not working, definitely both Thinkers. Im not sure how they live they're lives on a daily basis as far as if they have any order/structure/routine so I cannot determine the P or J, but probably P if I had to make a guess.

I personally think RIGHTS are stupid, I believe in EQUALITY, they are two different things.

 

[kris]

This whole ordeal started with an off-hand comment from a TO police officer during a talk on rape prevention, if I recall correctly. While the comment was a misstep, it was interpreted as slut-shaming, which probably wasn't correct. There are reasons why this was interpreted as slut-shaming, but those reasons were misinterpreted as rampant feminism for the sake of feminism, which also was likely off the mark.

With some back and forth of people talking past each other -- never offending yet always being offended -- SlutWalk eventually emerged. It's not really about promoting sluts; it's about countering slut-shaming. A group with a men's rights bent coming out to promote sluts is either disingenuous or not really understanding the focus of the demonstration. Still, that doesn't mean these men's rights activists are misogynists promoting slut-shaming or excusing rape.

Perhaps that's a sloppy summation -- I am sure I am missing a lot of back story where these two men, specifically, are concerned --, but what I am getting at is that there is a tendency to polarize people into narrow camps when the reality is that most exist somewhere in the middle of a spectrum. Many of the arguments on either side have more to do with personal experience or a specific perspective, but it is a multifaceted issue not accurately encapsulated by any one perspective.

In the video you have a guy who is being excessively literal contrasted with a guy who seems to be reading more into the situation than is actually there. It's painful to watch not because either person is doing such a bad job of it, but rather because it just doesn't seem to work. You end up with two people talking about the same topic using similar words yet having almost entirely different conversations which have very little to do with each other. It seems to make sense on the surface, but when you try to decipher it, it starts to look more like word salad than a coherent conversation.

I can't speculate on types based off a single video.

 

[Base groove]

This whole ordeal started with an off-hand comment from a TO police officer during a talk on rape prevention, if I recall correctly. While the comment was a misstep, it was interpreted as slut-shaming, which probably wasn't correct. There are reasons why this was interpreted as slut-shaming, but those reasons were misinterpreted as rampant feminism for the sake of feminism, which also was likely off the mark.

With some back and forth of people talking past each other -- never offending yet always being offended -- SlutWalk eventually emerged. It's not really about promoting sluts; it's about countering slut-shaming. A group with a men's rights bent coming out to promote sluts is either disingenuous or not really understanding the focus of the demonstration. Still, that doesn't mean these men's rights activists are misogynists promoting slut-shaming or excusing rape.

Perhaps that's a sloppy summation -- I am sure I am missing a lot of back story where these two men, specifically, are concerned --, but what I am getting at is that there is a tendency to polarize people into narrow camps when the reality is that most exist somewhere in the middle of a spectrum. Many of the arguments on either side have more to do with personal experience or a specific perspective, but it is a multifaceted issue not accurately encapsulated by any one perspective. Zooming out is exactly what I wanted to gain from this. A bigger perspective, not a smaller one.

In the video you have a guy who is being excessively literal contrasted with a guy who seems to be reading more into the situation than is actually there. It's painful to watch not because either person is doing such a bad job of it, but rather because it just doesn't seem to work. You end up with two people talking about the same topic using similar words yet having almost entirely different conversations which have very little to do with each other. It seems to make sense on the surface, but when you try to decipher it, it starts to look more like word salad than a coherent conversation. Yeah it was almost like a flame war that has been taken to the streets.

I can't speculate on types based off a single video.

Why won't you speculate on a type based on a video? You don't have to notarize it.

 

[pernoctator]

- Personalities: There isn't much information here. They are both charismatic. I notice the other guy seems to have much more expansive body language, and chose to climb a tree halfway through his speech. Significant?

- Ryjin's arguments are weak, but the video feels a lot like a political campaign ad which spends most of its time describing the opposition's views. Since I'm too lazy / uninterested to find more context for his statements, I have to rely on the tree-dweller's video editing and storytelling, which may be unfair. As for the neckbeard himself, his arguments are also emotional, and logically disconnected. What makes him especially irritating is how apparently confident he is that the opposite is true.

- The subject is most likely largely pointless.

 

[kris]

Why won't you speculate on a type based on a video? You don't have to notarize it.

I am not against speculation; I just don't feel like it would be based on anything meaningful here. MBTI is usually based on self-identified preference rather than applied to exhibited behaviours. Similar behaviour can occur in two different individuals for two very different underlying motives. Also, people don't act true to their type in all instances, or necessarily fall firmly just into one type.

If we were looking at a trend in behaviour over time, maybe it would seem that these individuals trend one way or the other, but this is a very narrow context.