Self-esteem

[gnome]

I was going to originally make this thread about low self-esteem, but I realized for the most part we actually probably don't have a self-esteem. The reason I say this is because we are the analyst. We have the ability to see flaws in logic and reason faster than most other personality types. INTJ's are faster at drawing conclusions, but that leads to hasty generalizations (which I have noticed INTJ's are infamous for). We have the ability to see the big picture in concepts and then find all sorts of abstract connections that relate to it. Albeit this comes with a price of a lot of time spent thinking whereas other types would prefer to spend the time executing. Those who spend their time executing their ideas tend to have more achievements. Achievements lead to purpose. Purpose leads to a healthy self-esteem (high self-esteem only sucks to be around, not to have in my experience). A healthy self-esteem leads to even more achievements and a better quality of life.

There in lies the problem. Our imaginations are so powerful that we are capable of running a full simulation in our heads. Once we are done with the simulation and have removed all flaws we are content. What has happened in our minds does not become recognized by anyone else. Therefor our self-esteem remains untouched. This is why we are often judged as being "the loser".

I'm going to use the hasty generalization example from wikipedia. Two people are walking by a pawn shop and see some watches in the window. Person A comments that the watch looks like his grandpas. Person B then thinks several possibilities :
A. His grandpa has a lot of money
B. His grandpa had to pawn the watch for financial reasons
C. His grandpa could be doing drugs and selling stuff for a habit
D. His grandpa has good taste in jewelery

The problem becomes this. The INTJ would pick one of those 4 thoughts and make a judgement call about the grandpa. The INTP would perceive all of the possibilities and continue on.

What I mean by this is a different personality type with a perceived higher self-esteem is most likely not comparing themselves to the ideal (which we do). In our minds the ideal is truth. Truth is to be free of errors in logic and reason. When we turn our analyst mind inwards and start comparing ourselves to the ideal we end up self-deprecating ourselves. Humans are not perfect. This leads to us effectively lowering our own self-esteem.


My personal problem in all of this is I under-value myself at times. Other times I over-value myself. Sometimes I will hear a song written by someone and think wow I could never play this. I pick the guitar up and I learn it insanely fast surprising myself. I never really show off my ability on guitar unless I am playing live in a band. I really don't care if anyone knows my ability. I just learn something to prove to myself I can do it.

I have noticed I join bands with people with lesser skill than myself. Somehow I think it goes largely unnoticed. The other people in the band are oblivious and believe their musicianship is on par with mine. When I point out flaws in their playing it doesn't go well. What they don't realize is I am more critical on myself than them. I am uncertain if this is a delusional thought on their part. Obviously they aren't seeing the logic I am. Perhaps their self-esteem is higher and they are letting that cloud their ability to evaluate themselves honestly. My perceiving function is developed to the point that I understand that they are good in their own ways such as being a better performer. The problem currently is they want to bring another guitar player in the band. He is rich and can afford any gear he wants. He is playing through some terrible guitar gear (imo) and he has poor technique. He owns a van though and is rich so they think it'd be a good person to have. While I'd agree I hate having my integrity at stake.

All in all I guess I am looking on advice to get my self-esteem to a healthy level. Perhaps I should start doing more things that have real world results. One problem with the real world results is I tend to not find musicians on my level. I have fallen into a pattern of joining bands where my ability doesn't get to shine. I'd compare it to say Jerry Seinfeld. If Jerry Seinfeld didn't get his own sitcom and he had do Everyone Loves Raymond he would have sucked. My leadership skills suck and I hate running bands. I hate being the one in charge.

As far as the running simulations in your head thing goes it shows true in music for me. I can write a full song with a digital audio workstation and do a professional sounding mix. People listen to it and are like "wow this is you?" One time I had a drummer and he'd learn what I wrote. His girlfriend was like "are you guys plagiarizing?"

That's the bitch of living in our theoretical worlds. It gets frustrating. Part of me realizes that the theoretical world in my head, is just that, in my head. I am capable of applying my theoretical world into a computer exactly like a programmer, but that doesn't really benefit me in the self-esteem department. No human is going to sound exactly the way I want. That's the damn problem with being a perfectionist, nothing is ever good enough.

I had a guitar player in a band I was in. I showed him how to use Cubase. He learned a lot about playing guitar, guitar tone, programming drums, mixing, etc from me. He went on to write songs and make a myspace. He found a live band to play his stuff and made a tricked out myspace with a nice layout. All the dudes in the band follow the latest fashion and probably are attractive to most people. For some reason if I did something like that I'd feel like my integrity was in jeopardy.

Some of you might be getting tired of me whining about bands/music, but its my passion. Think of it like physics, psychology, philosophy, mathematics, science or whatever you're into. Its my purpose. Its my self-esteem.

 

[Jennywocky]

I was going to originally make this thread about low self-esteem, but I realized for the most part we actually probably don't have a self-esteem. The reason I say this is because we are the analyst. We have the ability to see flaws in logic and reason faster than most other personality types. INTJ's are faster at drawing conclusions, but that leads to hasty generalizations (which I have noticed INTJ's are infamous for). We have the ability to see the big picture in concepts and then find all sorts of abstract connections that relate to it. Albeit this comes with a price of a lot of time spent thinking whereas other types would prefer to spend the time executing. Those who spend their time executing their ideas tend to have more achievements. Achievements lead to purpose. Purpose leads to a healthy self-esteem (high self-esteem only sucks to be around, not to have in my experience). A healthy self-esteem leads to even more achievements and a better quality of life.

There in lies the problem. Our imaginations are so powerful that we are capable of running a full simulation in our heads. Once we are done with the simulation and have removed all flaws we are content. What has happened in our minds does not become recognized by anyone else. Therefor our self-esteem remains untouched. This is why we are often judged as being "the loser".

After reading this, I 'm wondering if you feel a burden to prove yourself to others. The truth is that this is the way we are, and there's nothing wrong with it; and if others don't see us for as talented as we wish to be, then is there a reason it matters? Or does not being recognized impact self-esteem?

I'm going to use the hasty generalization example from wikipedia. Two people are walking by a pawn shop and see some watches in the window. Person A comments that the watch looks like his grandpas. Person B then thinks several possibilities :
A. His grandpa has a lot of money
B. His grandpa had to pawn the watch for financial reasons
C. His grandpa could be doing drugs and selling stuff for a habit
D. His grandpa has good taste in jewelery

The problem becomes this. The INTJ would pick one of those 4 thoughts and make a judgement call about the grandpa. The INTP would perceive all of the possibilities and continue on.

Actually, I think that is a hasty generalization on your part.

Ni types don't really "make choices" like that -- they look at something and connect the dots and "see it" as if it already exists. It's a perceiving function, NOT a judging function. So no, INTJs are not just seeing all four and picking one that fits their judgment, like you would; what they see (even if they could acknowledge the rest) is ONE of those patterns as being as plain as the nose on your face. It's like seeing a car coming at you on the highway; to you, it's a car, and you need to act on that information to avoid getting hit, and you are not being judgmental in the least just because you see a car.

Ti+Ne is different: We brainstorm all the different possibilities, and at that point, we might be able to have a "most likely" if we have evidence to use to justify it, but otherwise we'll let the information sit in limbo, ambiguous. Because we are fine with ambiguity. And if we "force" an answer without proof, then we rightfully call ourselves judgmental because we are allowing emotional bias (or whatever else) interfere with the facts at hand.

What I mean by this is a different personality type with a perceived higher self-esteem is most likely not comparing themselves to the ideal (which we do). In our minds the ideal is truth. Truth is to be free of errors in logic and reason. When we turn our analyst mind inwards and start comparing ourselves to the ideal we end up self-deprecating ourselves. Humans are not perfect. This leads to us effectively lowering our own self-esteem.

I generally agree. i think there are various kinds of ideal standards people use (some use religious ones, for example; ours are typically ideals of rationality)... and those people WITH standards of course are in a position to judge themselves. I know I was ruthlessly self-deprecating growing up. Yes, I was critical of others when they behaved hypocritically; but I was most ruthless on myself; and it had a negative impact on my self-esteem. I'm still dealing with fallout from expecting more of myself than from others.

My personal problem in all of this is I under-value myself at times. Other times I over-value myself. Sometimes I will hear a song written by someone and think wow I could never play this. I pick the guitar up and I learn it insanely fast surprising myself. I never really show off my ability on guitar unless I am playing live in a band. I really don't care if anyone knows my ability. I just learn something to prove to myself I can do it.

Yeah, with this, it's been the same with me musically... just mostly with piano. I realize I play better than 90% of the people I run across, but I'm harsh on myself for the 10% I don't measure up to. I also judge my performances more harshly; what to me was clumsy and something I should apologize for often receives glowing praise from everyone who heard it. It's because they had no expectations going in, and they could appreciate it for what it was; I could see and hear what I failed to achieve, and I'm aware of where it was possible to do better.

When I point out flaws in their playing it doesn't go well. What they don't realize is I am more critical on myself than them. I am uncertain if this is a delusional thought on their part. Obviously they aren't seeing the logic I am. Perhaps their self-esteem is higher and they are letting that cloud their ability to evaluate themselves honestly.

One thing to learn from dealing with S people is that they just don't see what we see. To them, you being critical of them without being critical of yourself first and out loud is just you being critical of them. I learned this the hard way, over years of bad experiences. What I thought was realistic for them to assume just wasn't. If you don't say it, they don't hear it; if you don't do it, they don't see it.

I do agree that, usually early in life at least, there's a tendency for the kids with the higest self-esteem and most outgoing natures to not be very self-aware. Self-awareness can have an inversely proportional impact on self-esteem; the more awareness you have, the more critical you can be, and the worse your self-esteem.

My perceiving function is developed to the point that I understand that they are good in their own ways such as being a better performer. The problem currently is they want to bring another guitar player in the band. He is rich and can afford any gear he wants. He is playing through some terrible guitar gear (imo) and he has poor technique. He owns a van though and is rich so they think it'd be a good person to have. While I'd agree I hate having my integrity at stake.

There is a tradeoff there. Is it worth the cost to include this guy in your group? Unfortunately, you are simply a member of this group, so you have only as much say as everyone else. All you can do is state why you are in support of or opposed to bringing this guy on, and if the group decides differently, you get a choice of either staying or walking out. Unless you are definitely in charge and have sole decision making, this is how it works. So you'll need to again decide if bringing this guy on will mar your integrity enough that you'll need to leave the group.

That's the bitch of living in our theoretical worlds. It gets frustrating. Part of me realizes that the theoretical world in my head, is just that, in my head. I am capable of applying my theoretical world into a computer exactly like a programmer, but that doesn't really benefit me in the self-esteem department. No human is going to sound exactly the way I want. That's the damn problem with being a perfectionist, nothing is ever good enough.

Definitely. I had to learn to compromise -- not "is this as perfect as my mental ideal?" but "Is this the best I can do right now, with what I've got and my skill at its current level, and will it benefit people to experience this?" Otherwise you'll never put anything out there.

I had a guitar player in a band I was in. I showed him how to use Cubase. He learned a lot about playing guitar, guitar tone, programming drums, mixing, etc from me. He went on to write songs and make a myspace. He found a live band to play his stuff and made a tricked out myspace with a nice layout. All the dudes in the band follow the latest fashion and probably are attractive to most people. For some reason if I did something like that I'd feel like my integrity was in jeopardy.

It sounds to me like you're still chewing over that old famous bone of "being yourself" vs "selling out." People who do the crap you feel would mar your integrity end up being successful, where you are feeling that by following your standards, you're not going to be accepted or successful in a world that should know better. When you say, "Some of you might be getting tired of me whining about bands/music, but its my passion. Think of it like physics, psychology, philosophy, mathematics, science or whatever you're into. Its my purpose. Its my self-esteem," I'm left feeling like actually it's NOT that -- it's the response you want to GET for doing those things so well. That's what you have been going on about for so long here. You want to be recognized for being as talented and skilled as you are, but don't know how, and it's eroding your self-esteem.

Well, the reality for you to be effective is that (1) pragmatism probably needs to replace idealism and (2) in the end, there are reasonable expectations. Everything is just what it is. You do what you do because you enjoy doing it and you believe in it, regardless of what sort of response and recognition you get. You can't control people's responses, you can just be who you are and do what you do. That's the "sweet spot" to be found in the space between idealism and pragmatism, and we're happier once we find it.

 

[SpaceYeti]

... I'm awesome.

 

[Nocturne]

Mmmmm... Interesting. Alarmingly, I find that my self-esteem raises and lowers in accordance to my personal thoughts. Sometimes I fear that I think of myself too highly, thus making me believe in things that may not be true about myself. Esteem/ Confidence comes with experience and trials.

 

[yoopernation]

OK, I'm finding these responses interesting. I'm an INTP who doesn't care a whole lot about what other think about me .. I find it one of the greatest gifts a person can have. I would think that this would be a common trait for INTPs. Come to think of it, maturity has a lot to do with it though. Except for bodily discomforts, I'd hate to be young again!

 

[myexplodingcat]

Is it proud to expect more of yourself? Think about it. If you expect more of yourself than you do of others, does it mean you're easy-going, or does it mean that you think you're more likely to do better than they? If reworded, this says that our standards are lower for other people.

INTPs are self-critical by nature. We question ourselves. Is this rational? Is this right? Few people look into their own mistakes deeper than INTPs.

INTJs have J. That's Judging. They'll judge.

Honesty is important to INTPs, because honesty means truth. Truth is rationality, and truth isn't flawed data. If you became famous, you'd wonder whether you really deserved it.

My self-esteem can actually get pretty low at times, because when people give me compliments (like on my writing) I tend to pass them off as patronizing. This is probably one of the few places I'd trust someone's opinion of me or anything I do. Of course, the patronizing thing may come from the rave reviews of the Chosen One Prophecy junk I wrote about fairies when I was, like, nine or ten years old, and which I find unbearable to read now. It gives me a headache, because it's not perfection. ArRgHHH!

That's my opinion.

 

[soraya]

Person A "That watch looks like my grandpa's."
INTJ: Thought process (Huh, what does a watch mean to our culture? Why is that? What is the significance of time? Does time even exist? Is it completely dependent on subjective perception? Would it even be possible to have such a thing as an objective time? Time changes if we go at the speed of light. Science shows that space is curved. Interesting. Space and time seem to be kind of irrelevant but perhaps time was important to his grandfather. Now, I wonder what the cultural significance or remembering a loved one's posessions is all about...)
Verbalization of this thought process: Cool, nice watch.

Don't get down on yourself. I don't think anyone can tell you how to have higher self esteem. It really is something that has to come from within. You have to be happy with yourself and accept yourself. I think a lot of that has to do with knowing your RATIONAL limits. I say rational because irrationally underestimating yourself is just as harmful as irrationally overestimating yourself. Be Aristotle, walk that middle line. I also want to tell you, from my experience, that having low self esteem can actually hurt the people around you a lot more than it hurts you. So please don't be afraid to confront your fears and esteem issues. Seems like you're on the right track.

About what you said about music, have you ever considered that you might be putting yourself around people who you see yourself as better as because you're afraid that you might not be 'good enough' to be playing with people who could be more talented than you? I've seen INTPs hang out with people who they perceive as 'lesser' than them because they think it will make them feel better about themselves. In fact, it just makes their esteem worse because these people don't understand them and increase the feeling of isolation and misunderstanding that INTPs already feel. Maybe challenge yourself by working with people whom you see as more talented. It will be hard, but it will probably be a lot better for you.

Lastly, don't feel alone. It's sometimes easy for INTPs to slip into the Ti-Si spiral of death where you feel like you are completely alone, no one is like you, and no one will ever understand or accept you. This isn't true. You aren't alone. I'm not INTP but I know exactly how you feel. As INTJ I get depressed because I have this amazing imaginative worldview of Ni in my head. But the real world doesn't ever measure up and it never will. My Te is so pragmatic, my Ni is so imaginative, it's like being at war with your own head all the time. It can lead to a very pessimistic and relativistic worldview. We can get very bitter because of it. So, don't feel alone. There's plenty of people out there, both INTP and non INTP, who know how you feel. Hang in there and just keep working on it.