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Screwing yourself with unintended consequences

EditorOne

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I've noticed that some people have tendencies to project personal experiences onto career expectations, usually with dismaying results. It's most apparent right now with all the younger posters who eyeball some form of computer science as a compatible career. They are deriving satisfaction from code and computer stuff one-on-one, nobody around, just them and the machine and software, mind challenges, all susceptible to resolution with pure thought. But that is absolutely not what a career in computer sciences is going to be like. It's going to be like working in ann business. A lot of the job is going to involve relationships, tedious processes with odious details, meetings, melodrama, egos, braying extraverts with narrow minds fueled by Red Bull and ambition, etc.

I think a similar projection occurred with my generation and previous generations without the computers: writing. I loved to read (still do). Just me and the book. And by osmosis some of that translates into being able to write cogently. Therefore I'd become a writer and enjoy a life of solitary productivity punctuated by occasional applause from an appreciative world.

You've already figured out what I'm going to tell you: That's not what a career in writing is like. If it's journalism, which I pursued, it's daily interaction with total strangers plus deadlines like steel walls and office intrigue worthy of any soap opera. If it's books, which I've also pursued, it's more about networking and knowing people in order to get an agent and a publisher, and then it's about marketing, than it is about the writing (although good - or at least "commercial" - writing does have to be there).

I'm just putting this out there as a possible insight. Learning from experience is fine, but if you can learn from mine instead you're ahead. :-)

(I don't know that pursuing both those forms of "writing" as a result of a misperception of what would be involved did me any serious harm, except that now I'm retired and finding myself chained down by social anxiety as much as any beleagured 15 year old in the forum. It's like my supplies of "I will interact with strangers" juice have completely run out.:))
 

Ex-User (9086)

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No man is an island?

I think it's possible to achieve a high degree of independence at work, but as you have mentioned, there comes the time when you have to sell yourself, be appreciated for the effort, get selected for the job, all of these inevitable human interactions along the way, even when the work is a solitary thinking occupation (which it rarely is, as most of it is team oriented and based on communication between various professionals).

If you get to work with smart, cooperative people and you are required to communicate in your life, then you might as well become good at it, so it doesn't hinder your progress as an individual and all the precious freedoms that come with it.
 

TheManBeyond

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that's why i have had so many problems with bosses, cuz i treat them as equals, that's bad, you must respect and serve, lick balls. fucking peace of shit of theater. is it so hard to admit one's faults?, no, cuz they are superior. make connections, have friends, you'll be rewarded.
i'll probably end my life living under a bridge.
i've been alone all my life, even when i felt loved, nobody cares, everybody uses you. and of course i do it too.
 

TheManBeyond

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if you are getting paid for something then you already have earned some position. then the cool thing would be one getting as much responsability as confidence. if we start from this point, there would be no need to get into silly discussions, aiming for the easiest target.
that's the way my sister talks, she's an estj bro.
 

Architect

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I've noticed that some people have tendencies to project personal experiences onto career expectations, usually with dismaying results. It's most apparent right now with all the younger posters who eyeball some form of computer science as a compatible career. They are deriving satisfaction from code and computer stuff one-on-one, nobody around, just them and the machine and software, mind challenges, all susceptible to resolution with pure thought. But that is absolutely not what a career in computer sciences is going to be like. It's going to be like working in ann business. A lot of the job is going to involve relationships, tedious processes with odious details, meetings, melodrama, egos, braying extraverts with narrow minds fueled by Red Bull and ambition, etc.


Thanks for this post. I'd make a couple of points.

First I'd point out the many differences between writing and CS

  • CS pays money. A lot of money, unlike writing. Money cures many ills including having to deal with a few extraverts and whatnot.
  • CS is filled with quiet introverts. I have a paper I can share, it's mostly ISTJ, ISTP, INTJ and INTP. All introverts. My entire division, some 100 people, a whole floor of them are all introverts. Except one (my boss). Who I really like, we game together. Go spend time at Google, not a lot of extraverts (I saw one once).
  • You mainly draw from Journalism which of course involves a lot of people management. Engineers have to deal with a few team mates is all, and not always then (I've gotten nothing but solo projects for the last eight years). Not even customers if you don't want, that's what marketing is for.
  • CS is a STEM course, writing is a humanities course, any way you cut it a STEM job is going to be more cut and dried than a humanities job (I've worked both and have witnessed this first hand).
  • There are many jobs in CS, many upon many. There are positions everywhere, there is a huge dearth of people that can actually do this work. This leads to the next two points ...
  • There is an enormous range of jobs, from engineering, to QA, to managing, to requirements, to architecture, to coding, to web, to embedded, to AI, to game, to ... I'd grant you there is a variety to writing too, however it's much smaller than what's available in software. So it's easy to find a compatible niche (see next)
  • There are big shops, and little shops. I know a kid of a friend who just got a job in a small mom and pop. He has a cat on his desk. He's a cat person so likes that. So in CS you can find the spot for you. I've been in my job for some 20 years, because they give me tons of freedom.
  • So actually it is just you and the computer. In the industry software guys are known for being "odd birds". All sorts of behavior is tolerated - if you have talent. If you can do it nobody cares what you're like. You won't get promoted if you don't have a personality, but then you don't want to get promoted anyhow.

So your point is a valid one, but I'm not sure of the specificity to CS. To have ANY career you have to manage the business side of it (personalities and such). I'll verify that personalities are the biggest headache in a humanities type job (at least Music that I was in, but I don't think writing would be much different). In the academic world they're less important, but still up there. A corporate job? The least.

Not to detract from your intentions or slight you, but what experience are you drawing from, have you worked as an engineer? I'd put it out there that there are two things going on. One is that, you being an INTP are perhaps drawing from your Si personal experience here which is good. Well I certainly do that too. But I think it's valid to compare viewpoints and contrast, to see if we can find a general recommendation for all INTP's, all else being equal. That means that if we can find a career that affords the most use of our analytical skills with the least amount of people managing, we've found our point on the Pareto chart. As I've detailed before after much searching and though I do believe it lies in CS.

The main idea you bring however up an excellent point which hints at the real problem here, which is that we do idealize and project too much onto our careers. It's a mistake to think that any career will be without trouble and the nasty business of dealing with the quotidian. We have Albert Einstein as a poster child unfortunately - he had it all. Few of us will ever have his experience though.

Important: Here's a link to the paper I cited
Personality types in software engineering

The hard proof of the idea that INTP's like software is that they found 8% of software engineers to be INTP's, but with a self-selection index (R) of 2.46. This means that you'll find INTP's in software at two and a half times the amount you'll find them in the general population*. This high number indicates that INTP's flock to CS, which they presumably wouldn't do if they didn't like it.

* The only higher number is 3.4% for INTJ's, which I think is mainly due to them finding it so much easier to get a job. Considering that so many INTP's surely flame out and live disillusioned lives this result is remarkable.
 

Anktark

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going to involve relationships, tedious processes with odious details, meetings, melodrama, egos, braying extraverts with narrow minds fueled by Red Bull and ambition, etc.

That sounds like the happy place in my mind that I go to when I am overly stressed.
 

EditorOne

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Footnote: Perhaps taking some courses in theater and drama would be a wise choice, not to prepare for a career in theater, but to prepare for the drama in life. :)

Footnote 2: Journalism can go in different directions on our personality scales. Newspapers seemed to attract more introverted types, although not exclusively. Television still seems to attract extraverts, at least for the broadcast roles.

Footnote 3: For Architect, I've worked with engineers on plant design, press operation, and with computer folks on translating computer screen color into print color (back before there was software) and on a whole range of issues during the years newspapers were making the transition to online digital. I can (I could, at any rate) write basic code, essentially self-taught, for various eras since 1974. The folks at the vocational level on all that stuff seemed to be compatible personalities; the managers in any endeavor, not so much. But your takeaway was correct, I essentially think INTPs, in an attempt to find careers and jobs that fit, misapply the satisfaction they take from some activities and assume the full career in that field will be equally satisfying. I was just using my own misperceptions as an example. :) I suspect every personality type can make the same mistake.
 

Architect

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Footnote 3: For Architect, I've worked with engineers on plant design, press operation, and with computer folks on translating computer screen color into print color ...

See below

But your takeaway was correct, I essentially think INTPs, in an attempt to find careers and jobs that fit, misapply the satisfaction they take from some activities and assume the full career in that field will be equally satisfying.

Well actually that's not the point I'm making but I think the one you are. I'm saying that you can take satisfaction from some activity and find greater satisfaction in a career in the field, with caveats. Which are that the field needs to be sufficiently broad such that a variety of niche's can be found. For example, if you want to be a Symphony musician then the range of careers and options you can have is very narrow. If you want to work with computers than the range is enormous, and you are likely to find a spot for yourself that works.

You have some experience with engineering but I'd say the main issue is that it is out of date. I've seen how things have changed on the ground dramatically during my career. I've got a much broader experience with engineering but there's much I don't know.

I was just using my own misperceptions as an example. :) I suspect every personality type can make the same mistake.

I've seen it that those with Si in their stack do this the most, whereas those with Se not much. An exception is my father who gives bad advice much of the time, drawing from his personal experience too much. I puzzled on this until I realized it's because he's a narcissist (ESTJ males are highly prone to this, and unless they develop their secondary introversion will never pull out) which is the problem.
 
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