On the Development of Functions

[TimeAsylums]

Wall of Text (warning):

Disclaimers and explanations (Plz read 1st):

Spoiler

Sorreh if there is another thread like this. I searched.

Please feel free to argue, analyze, criticize, or whatever. I don't claim to have a monopoly on the understanding of this. PersonalityJunkie is pretty good at telling you what functions encompass what, but I'm interested in the specific development through usage, age, and time.

Please realize that I'm an ENTP and thus have had more experience with NeTiFeSi than the opposites, so I suppose I'm only predisposed to be able to speak about these more I do attempt to understand other functions. It's just harder because I don't use them nearly as much as those that do. Even living with an INTJ and ESTP and having friends of other types, I still have a limited understanding of other functions.

Obviously, external stress or whatever conditions can impede further character development, so I won't put ages to certain functions.


As I said, feel free to add, as my current understanding is very limited.

Most of these are subjective assumptions, anyway.

Also note, I could understand how one might derive superiority from my posts sometimes, but not my intentions.

I'd also appreciate if you stuck to the color palate for functions used, so they'll be easy to spot.

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Function development:

Se:

Spoiler

Se begins as physical sensations via the five senses. As PJ states, this may cause a more interest in, well physical things (looks, sports, etc).
Somewhere down the line this also causes a very linear form of thinking. (Wish I had the link) Dario Nardi seemed to posit that the STPs had the most linear thinking (Ti-Se, Se-Ti).
(Sorry that was so sparse, but as I said my understanding is limited)

Fi:

Spoiler

Fi usually gets generalized as "deep feelings" (I too am guilty of doing this). As far as I'm aware, it's the ISFPs and ISFJs (Fe-Si, Si-Fe respectively) who may most commonly be "hypersensitive" people (and those with these functions in the inferior as well, to a lesser degree). Some have trouble distinguishing from Fi and Ti, as obviously everyone thinks. Anyway, I'll get to that in Ti. I am unsure on the main development of Fi, as to be honest only realizing usage of personal Fi maybe twice.

as an additional note, Fi also seems to be able to understand the feelings of others as Fe does...

Ni:

Spoiler

Ni no data on development.

Ti:

Spoiler

Ti as far as I know, it is rather detached from the outset. However, it does not instantly start as pure logic, but gets there fast. The evolution/development of this function interests me, as it begins as an "understanding, by way of...'internal system' logic (as opposed to Te), and then becomes stronger with usage. Limited data, even as an auxiliary function. Would really appreciate input on any introspective input form you INTPs on the development of Ti.

Si:

Spoiler

Si Many of you already know how the ISJs get stereotyped as "hard minded/close minded." It does not start out this way. If you look at PJ, they begin as very sensitive individuals. The Si is "intense snapshots of Se." I imagine beginning, they take it all in, in snapshots that is, and it moves them, almost as Fi does in a sense. Over time, as the snapshots build up their interior structure, they gain their "ego" side. They can become hard minded because the intensity of the Si has built up over time. Anything threatening to their Si could throw them back into an oversensitive spiral, which is why they become hard-minded. To protect the psyche/ego. Many of you on an ISTJ thread stated how they only became open minded after tragedy, I imagine this was bursting open this hard minded Si (possibly by way of Ne, the inferior, or simply garnering the sensitive side of Si. So as to this function it goes sensitivity -> hard mindedness. The focus on the past is because of it being an intense snapshot of Se. They can remember who they are, and what was.

Ne:

Spoiler

Ne begins as a perception of simple patterns. Ne works via Si (same for Ni-Se, PersonalityJunkie). I have yet to determine whether N passively works off of S, or whether the users fluctuate in-between the N and S to be able to catapult later . PersonalityJunkie notes that Si doms don't "look behind what is" as the Ne-Si dynamic does. So, using those intense snapshots of Se (Si), Ne then looks behind what is(was, the past) and generalizes from there. Somewhere along the way this becomes even stronger. Most of intuition (E and I) seems to be unconscious (See INJ profiles on personalityJunkie). Even though this is my dominant function, I can not fully comprehend the development, so additional input is very much appreciated. Anyway, it's powerhouse ability is the torrential way in which information is put into the user's mind (the same for Se dom users, see SolitaryWalker's type profiles)

Fe:

Spoiler

Fe begins as one's projected feelings. You can see how an immature NTP/STP might use sarcasm early on while still developing their tert/inf Fe. However, the Fe doms have a better grasp, not only at projecting their feelings, but also understanding the feelings of others. Again, this is sparse.

Te:

Spoiler

Te, I understand the development of Te and Ni the least. As opposed to Ti, Te has an...external structure. It is a lot more than just "articulating very well," although that could be a part of development. Clearly input needed.

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Closing words:

Spoiler

As I said, this is by no means whatsoever even close to definitive. I am interested in how the beginning usage of a function develops over time and with usage and how strong they become. I find it best to look at the dominant users of the functions, with the introverted functions being a little harder to grasp, as by nature they are hidden, because well, introverted.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Si:

Spoiler

Si Many of you already know how the ISJs get stereotyped as "hard minded/close minded." It does not start out this way. If you look at PJ, they begin as very sensitive individuals. The Si is "intense snapshots of Se." I imagine beginning, they take it all in, in snapshots that is, and it moves them, almost as Fi does in a sense. Over time, as the snapshots build up their interior structure, they gain their "ego" side. They can become hard minded because the intensity of the Si has built up over time. Anything threatening to their Si could throw them back into an oversensitive spiral, which is why they become hard-minded. To protect the psyche/ego. Many of you on an ISTJ thread stated how they only became open minded after tragedy, I imagine this was bursting open this hard minded Si (possibly by way of Ne, the inferior, or simply garnering the sensitive side of Si. So as to this function it goes sensitivity -> hard mindedness. The focus on the past is because of it being an intense snapshot of Se. They can remember who they are, and what was.

...continued:


I'm sure some of you saw my "Acting Your Opposite" thread, aka acting like an ISFJ, but as usual via Ne, everything unintentional is intentional and vice versa "luck of the ENTP." It was more of an inferior grip. The first three weeks were marked by sensitivity, and just in the past few days I have moved on to the concrete place of mind stage. Piaget would laugh. I'm sure Architect would laugh too, all the physical nostalgia, primarily dealing with working out. All of the judgments I am making in this stage I would disagree with in my normal Ne self. It is to be remembered that the inferior function is very lopsided and imperfect when compared to a dominant user of the same function. It is very rarely that I feel this "confident" and "secure" in this state of mind. I can remember what was and is. I can feel the "hard mindedness." It is very "concrete" in manner. It is much easier to be alone and comply. Also remember this is all simple introspection and self observation, and slight observation of others and also imperfect (see disclaimer OP). As CherryCola has noted, I am such a histrionic monster, however I feel much better in this concrete Si stage rather than a crazy fucking Ne nut wondering about things ten times over and remaining opening to viewpoints. It is clear this function is necessary to remember and then to act upon such. My thoughts are much more structured in this stage, and I would feel comfortable using Ti, however much draining. Also, "serious minded indeed." Typing this out is somewhat more tiring than usual, I just want to "do things" that I have done before, workout, run, scheduled. Attempting to extrapolate via Ne is tiring in this stage.

to be continued.

 

[BigApplePi]

TimeAsylums. Good ones. I'm tempted to give reactions to each of those.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Continuing off of Fe:

It is likely the IxTPs could tell you more about Fe than I could, as they struggle with it, I personally have two ISTP friends and one INTP friend. I can see it in their interactions, in their alone time, in their crooked-not-perfect-smiles (no offense, it's cute). Anyway, I rarely use it, easily prefer NeTi

anyway,

Fe is more than extraverted feeling, it is more than making good feelings. In a way, it is very heavily related and akin to Te, and by that I mean their structuring system. I can easily understand the Fe system via my NeTi logic/whatever you want to call it understanding, but that's not the same. Their "social"/feeling structure is...different. Just like the N/S feels of being on different wavelengths. I can study them and see how they interact and try to mimic or interact in the same way and direction, but it's not nearly as natural and as fluid as theirs is. Their system/structure actually seems to incorporate other people/feelings in a way that I just don't feel (or even care to feel at all). It is more than simply talking about feelings. It is talking about what you feel, or possibly how. What they feel is what they think. I swear, attempting to use Fe bothers me more than Si. They structure you (as I have said) somewhat akin to Te, albeit the Te gets the stereotype of being even more ruthless...(and maybe effective..lol). Anyway, just had to make a quick quip. As I closely watch the ISTP I can see it. If some of you have read Architect's posts about how he climbed the ladder when he manipulated his inf Fe, it was extremely useful, it truly is a system and structure, one that I can not feel (I would say understand, but that makes for a whole pedantic paragraph)

Ne/Ti may attempt to size up/understand this system, but at the end of the day, it gives no shits and goes it's own way. (I only say this, because I can't fucking stand the rigidness controllingness/boxing in that Te/Fe does to you, sure they may like it, but once they attempt to pigeonhole/box you, it all lets loose.)

 

[redbaron]

On Ti

I'll start with a basic definition from personalityjunkie and build from there.

General:

Spoiler

Introverted Thinking (Ti) is concerned with inner rationality and personal effectiveness. Its methods are more individualized and therefore less broadly applicable than those of Te.

Some depth:

Spoiler

TP types use Introverted Thinking (Ti) as their dominant or auxiliary function. Since Ti is introverted, TPs are reluctant to express their rational judgments outwardly. Ti is used to bring structure and order to TPs’ inner world. This inner structuring grants them a strong sense of inner control. Inwardly, TPs are highly self-disciplined, working to independently manage their thoughts in a way that allows them to better cope with life. TPs (especially NTPs) are less interested in working with facts than with ideas. Jung writes of the ITP: “His ideas have their origin not in objective data but in his subjective foundation.” ITPs are constantly digging into the background of their own thoughts in order to better understand their origins and to ensure their thinking is founded on clear and logical ideas. They see it pointless to try to build a system of thought on a dubious conceptual platform, making them slower than Te types to rush into experiments in order to discover more “facts.” This is especially true of NTPs, who find it easier to identify inconsistencies or logical shortcomings—to assert what is not true—than to identify and confidently assert what is true. While their skepticism is often broad and liberal, their positivism is minimal and conservative.

I've provided these examples because they're perfectly usable and there's no need for me to redefine what has already been said. Using these as a baseline, I'll try to explain what it means to live a life dominated by Ti. I’ll probably respond over the course of a few posts because I want these to be concise and informative and so I will likely end up spending an inordinate amount of time ensuring that what I say is both succinct and accurate.

~

Firstly I'll speak of the inner structure and order mentioned above. This structure dominates and defines my experience. My thoughts will frequently revolve around the most efficient method by which to complete any given task. It can be as simple as going to the bank, picking up groceries or managing a project. My mind naturally dwells on systematic efficiency, constantly finding new ways of streamlining everything I do. This process is in and of itself satisfying. The simple act of developing methods for completing tasks, whether mundane or exciting, brings satisfaction.

As for the reason I follow this process, I think the answer is simple. It’s the pursuit of understanding. To be able to maximize my individual efficiency in any task, I need to first understand the task – and the best way for me to understand comes through the process of internal trial and error, maximizing efficiency. I am compelled to personally discover systematic and individualized methods of doing everything, so that I might come to increase my understanding through these processes.

Important to note is the fact that these two things go hand in hand. This is the source of my highly individual nature. I gain satisfaction in both understanding and optimizing; however I can’t do either of them without doing the other. To improve a system I need to understand it on a basic level first. To then understand further I need to improve it in some basic way. Then to further improve, I need to see how this basic improvement can also change my understanding, and so on and so forth.

As you can see, the individual components of this process are complementary to each other and contribute a lot to the oddball persona of Ti-dom personalities. Ti simply can’t follow a blueprint without understanding why. A blueprint provides a predictable outcome, which is great for Te-users who love predictable outcomes. For Ti-users, it’s a little different. Satisfaction isn’t derived by simply following a process and receiving the expected result (this is somewhat an oversimplification of Te, however it serves to illustrate my point). At least not in any personally meaningful way.

Real meaning is derived from understanding the result, from knowing why a certain process yields a result, and then understanding how to improve it.

While this can manifest in any number of ways, common things that concern Ti are:

- How do I get a different result?
- Why does this process lead to this result?
- What happens if I change X process?

The process of learning why a specific course of events leads to a specific outcome, in the terms of my own individual conceptual understanding is deeply rewarding. That's probably the best assessment I could give for the motivations of Ti.

 

[Architect]

Ti as far as I know, it is rather detached from the outset. However, it does not instantly start as pure logic, but gets there fast. The evolution/development of this function interests me, as it begins as an "understanding, by way of...'internal system' logic (as opposed to Te), and then becomes stronger with usage. Limited data, even as an auxiliary function. Would really appreciate input on any introspective input form you INTPs on the development of Ti.

I'm tasting some cotton candy here ... in my observations of others (INTP son), myself and talking to an INTP friend Ti appears at the outset to be concerned with how things work and are put together. When young, and even later it might seem to be an extraverted function because it focuses on external entities; such as my son playing with trucks and cars. Loved them, obsessed with them and here is another characteristic, deep single mindedness and focus which is characteristic of introverted functions. Watching him I believe the motivation was for him to come to an understanding of how these vehicles worked, what you could do with them and how they moved. Once that was understood then they were abandoned in search of a more intellectually complex entity to study and manipulate.

My INTP friend showed this characteristic in a desire to take things apart. I showed it throughout life in a desire to build up and architect a system (whether music, an office, a stereo system, a computer system, etc). You also see these characteristics in other Ti dominants such as the ISTP, though of course it plays out differently with them. In their case it really is interest in the physical object, whereas with intuitive Ti dominants it's a focus more on the system.

Regardless my observation is that the form of Ti is set quite early and doesn't change much over life, but simply develops in complexity and depth.

 

[BigApplePi]

The Development of Ti

Check this out*:

Ti can start from anywhere. The unconscious is a good source. Ne is a good source. Si is a good source. Te and Se are indirect sources quickly discarded. Its development consists of elaboration while continually checking for consistency. Its theme is internal conjecture rather than external reality. The idea is to build some theory that eventually can be delivered to the outside world as Fe.

The use of Te and Se are too concrete to be part of the theory except to check for consistency. Ni and Fi remain unconscious but exist in unconscious forms.

That covers all eight cognitive functions for Ti.

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*If the above fails to check out with you, some have presented alternate views. Good Ti always leaves room to allow for inconsistencies. To avoid bad Fe kindly resist releasing any spoilers:

Spoiler

 

[TimeAsylums]

develops in complexity and depth.

which is what I want to know. the how and why and when. I have no doubt all of the functions develop over time/usage in complexity and depth, but i want specifics.

 

[redbaron]

which is what I want to know. the how and why and when. I have no doubt all of the functions develop over time/usage in complexity and depth, but i want specifics.

Here:

To improve a system I need to understand it on a basic level first. To then understand further I need to improve it in some basic way. Then to further improve, I need to see how this basic improvement can also change my understanding, and so on and so forth.

It develops over time through this process. The constant process of gaining knowledge and then utilizing knowledge. The longer you do this, the more efficient your internal pathways become.

After analysing an infinite number of things ad infinitum, you become quite good at it - capable of both grasping and creating entire systems of great depth and complexity.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Ne begins as a perception of simple patterns. Ne works via Si (same for Ni-Se, PersonalityJunkie). I have yet to determine whether N passively works off of S, or whether the users fluctuate in-between the N and S to be able to catapult later . PersonalityJunkie notes that Si doms don't "look behind what is" as the Ne-Si dynamic does. So, using those intense snapshots of Se (Si), Ne then looks behind what is(was, the past) and generalizes from there. Somewhere along the way this becomes even stronger.

On this curious facet of Ne's development (in Ne-doms, at least):

"Catapulting" off of Si hints at a certain self-perpetuating balancing act between Ne-Fe/Te and Ti/Fi-Si. There are several "catapults" going on that develop (@TA I'll hit you with the words first, and then the visual). In proposed order:

First is the Ne-Si bounce. The amount of time during which Ne and Si predominate are approximately equal. The wavelength is long and the frequency is low.

Second is the Ne-Fe loop bounce. The synergistic effect of loops allows the Ne-Fe loop to bounce off the Ti/Fi-Si loop, which shortens the wavelength and increases the frequency, as well as the proportion of time spent using Ne.

Third is the Ne-Ti bounce. This is the shortest wavelength and the highest frequency. Ti directs Ne to its impact location (where it encounters the external world), and Ne returns with information to feed it. Ne begins to dominate in a game of high speed ping pong. What was once a reactive amoebic blob has become a.... phallic mental probe.

Complexity of perception increases with development.

The visual:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Random theoretical addition: This process also echos through the shadow functions.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Si continued

Si doms are not literally, nor directly focused on the past, but indirectly. (the same with Ne doms - here, we are not looking at the future, but what new situations or patterns may arise in the future). The Si doms are remembering how the external situations have made them "feel" (by that, I mean how the sensations have affected them, and...) these perceptions of the sensations arise from within. Just as the Ne dom is lost to these internal sensations, the Si dom is ruled by them. On a small scale this could be minute things, foods, people, - how they have made the Si dom "feel". It always remembers, it can only store so much. On a larger scale (thinking Ne) it could be patterns of a life time, perhaps throughout generation, think culture. Follow it, and it will guide you. The Si perceives from within - it remembers how the external situations has welled up the sensations within them, and seeks to continue this ad infinitum.

The Si's will follow as has been because it is perceived from them as being just fine as it is.

This is contrast to Ni (continued).

*DISCLAIMER* I do not necessarily believe in the collective unconscious nor endorse it, this is all theoretical.

We know how much the Inferior and tert Ni gives people visions and often leads them to...places. Those Se's can't handle their weak Ni, so they congregate, they follow whoever can guide them. The Ni dives too deep into their unconsciousness (or the collective, thus why the mass can follow one), and they don't know what the fuck to do. The Ni doms obviously having a better grip on their Ni. Regardless of whether it is personal unconscious or collective, I mean to make a point.

The Si will follow the mass because it is. The inferior Ni's will follow what can guide them. These two masses make up a large portion of the population that seem to ebb and flow throughout society.


**Second disclaimer** please note I did not insult or make any negative connotations about any types or functions, only theoretically what may push-pull/guide them in their life throughout development.

 

[Base groove]

Firstly I'll speak of the inner structure and order mentioned above. This structure dominates and defines my experience. My thoughts will frequently revolve around the most efficient method by which to complete any given task.
This is extroverted thinking.

It can be as simple as going to the bank, picking up groceries or managing a project. My mind naturally dwells on systematic efficiency, constantly finding new ways of streamlining everything I do. This process is in and of itself satisfying. The simple act of developing methods for completing tasks, whether mundane or exciting, brings satisfaction.
This is extroverted thinking.

As for the reason I follow this process, I think the answer is simple. It’s the pursuit of understanding. To be able to maximize my individual efficiency in any task, I need to first understand the task – and the best way for me to understand comes through the process of internal trial and error, maximizing efficiency. I am compelled to personally discover systematic and individualized methods of doing everything, so that I might come to increase my understanding through these processes.
Again ....

Important to note is the fact that these two things go hand in hand. This is the source of my highly individual nature. I gain satisfaction in both understanding and optimizing; however I can’t do either of them without doing the other. To improve a system I need to understand it on a basic level first. To then understand further I need to improve it in some basic way. Then to further improve, I need to see how this basic improvement can also change my understanding, and so on and so forth.



Real meaning is derived from understanding the result, from knowing why a certain process yields a result, and then understanding how to improve it.

While this can manifest in any number of ways, common things that concern Ti are:

- How do I get a different result?
- Why does this process lead to this result?
- What happens if I change X process?

The process of learning why a specific course of events leads to a specific outcome, in the terms of my own individual conceptual understanding is deeply rewarding. That's probably the best assessment I could give for the motivations of Ti.

As far as I can tell, you describe the process of extroverted thinking in this quote, from beginning to end.

It is clear to me that your thinking is task-oriented, focused on optimizing existing systems through understanding of their design/workings.

When you speak of "different results", you again refer to tasks and procedures; this too is extroverted in attitude. In fact, you have deliberately chosen to use the words "process, and result" to refer to objective tasks and procedures.

Nowhere do you speak of a formulation of an idea, or it's refinement, in abstract space. It is clear to me that this form of thinking you describe is in fact rooted in physical space.

I would not have such a strong opinion if you, even for a brief moment, alluded to the subjective retreat and detachment from reality that is so characteristic of introverted thinking; however you ploughed along through that whole description, maintaining all along that your thinking is oriented towards efficiency, improvement, and cause/effect relationships between objects.

If you identify as an INTP, I would personally encourage you to do so no longer, if for no other reason than the quoted exemplum: your own personal descriptions of your own thinking process.