MBTI functions are logically incorrect and hence the typology is empirically invalid

[BurnedOut]

I have been reading up again on MBTI and testing-retesting with honest responses but one cognitive function test upturned everything that MBTI does. I will make a new thread on 'Logical validity and empirical practicality' to discuss the philosophical problem later.

So, my results basically showed that I am a hybrid INTP-INTJ with nearly equally strong corresponding functions which turns the theory on it's head. Ni and Ne are considered to be mutually exclusive processes given their diametric traits but turns out this governed much more than the prevailing mindset of the person than anything else. Suppose an Ni dom or a Te dom or an Si dom is an avid internet user since childhood. Suddenly it clicks to them in college that you can research things faster. In a bid to make it even faster, you learn to use google operators and sci-hub to download research papers putting you ahead of the class already. Now that you developed a skillset to do faster research. You WILL look like someone who uses lots of Ne but truth is that because you learned how to get information faster, you invariably learned a lot of that information subconsciously by seeing it being employed in theory or practice over and over again. So it's easier on your working memory to retain new facts and since you have a conceptual understanding with newer facts each time, you will obviously have the capacity to create diverse ideas in your head. This debunks the distinction between introverted and extroverted functions because this is a natural process of trial and error, evolution of thoughts and the part-arbitrary survival of the one which was the most-efficient.

 

[Hadoblado]

IIRC Ni and Ne aren't mutually exclusive. If you have Ne high in your stack, Ni is low in your stack but still exists (shadow functions).

I broadly agree with you, but if someone believes in MBTI they're not going to change their minds because of this. The bread and butter of pseudoscience is not being falsifiable, so any falsifiable statement will be retracted in favour of something less falsifiable the moment you address it.

 

[Cognisant]

MBTI is as scientific as any other internet quiz.

Welcome to House Ravenclaw.

 

[ZenRaiden]

MBTI is as scientific as any other internet quiz.

Jung never claimed it be science.
Something can be non scientific and still correct.
Kind of like we know how to have sex and not be taught in science class.



This is what Jung says on his psychological types.
Since MBTI is derived from his work it seems he agrees that its not that simple.

So Jung claims - typology is:

- not static
- is map not territory
- is entirely theoretical
- dichotomies are not really good idea, but rather gradients
- we are both E and I depends on situations.

I would also point out that even so called Jungian's often misquote or misrepresent Jung on topic of typology. Recently I watched a video on a channel for Jungian psychology where they explicitly criticized Jung for being a dichotomous, where literally his one of the most famous interviews he claims he is not.
Jungian people and psychology is bordello of theories, and many people in psychology aren't the brightest light bulbs.

 

[scorpiomover]

I have been reading up again on MBTI and testing-retesting with honest responses but one cognitive function test upturned everything that MBTI does. I will make a new thread on 'Logical validity and empirical practicality' to discuss the philosophical problem later.

So, my results basically showed that I am a hybrid INTP-INTJ with nearly equally strong corresponding functions which turns the theory on it's head. Ni and Ne are considered to be mutually exclusive processes given their diametric traits but turns out this governed much more than the prevailing mindset of the person than anything else.

Js use more time-based prospective memory.
Ps use more event-based prospective memory.

Event-based and Time-based prospective memory

Time-based prospective memory is a type of prospective memory in which remembrance is triggered by a time-related cue that indicates that a given action needs to be performed. An example is remembering to watch a television program at 3 p.m.[1] In contrast to time-based prospective memory, event-based prospective memory is triggered by an environmental cue that indicates that an action needs to be performed.[2] An example is remembering to send a letter (the action) after seeing a mailbox (the cue).

They seem to cause genuine differences in the brain:

In a positron emission tomography (PET) study, participants were asked to make a prospective response in either an event-based or time-based task condition.[5] Differences in activation of regions of the rostral prefrontal cortex were seen in the results according to whether the task was time- or event- based. Three rostral prefrontal regions were more active in the time-based condition: the right superior frontal gyrus, anterior medial frontal lobe and anterior cingulate gyrus.[5] These results suggest that there are different processing demands made by event- or time- based prospective memory tasks.[5][6]

Spoiler: My explanation

1) Prospective memory is your main way of remembering whatever it is that you planned to do next. It's the part of your brain that makes your decisions.

Js use a lot of time-based prospective memory, which anticipates sequentially. It's clear what to do, because whenever you finish what you are doing now, your brain will anticipate and show you the next item in the sequence of tasks you have to do, which also makes perfect sense, because it's the next item in the list.

However, it has one major weakness: not everything happens as expected. Sometimes you are walking in the jungle and you step on a snake where a snake should not be. So with this strategy alone, humans are very successful and then encounter an unexpected lethal threat and die. Live fast, die young, make a great corpse. Great for a hero. But if the person dies before they reproduce, that's terrible for a species.

2) So you need also the ability to search around for unexpected dangers. This ability, and the ability to make unexpected connections, both in general conversation, and also when considering topics like theoretical physics, comes from the event-based prospective memory.

Ps use a lot more event-based prospective memory than Js do. This part of the brain anticipates laterally, i.e. it connects to anything in the brain that might be related, according to the strength of the neural associations. Multiple associations can be made. So the person can be shown multiple possible choices of action.

As a result, if a Ps is low in time-based prospective memory, they probably won't remember to leave for work to get there by 9am, but will happily go to work if reminded to. So getting things done, is not an issue for Ps in a mutually supportive group environment.

Suppose an Ni dom or a Te dom or an Si dom is an avid internet user since childhood. Suddenly it clicks to them in college that you can research things faster. In a bid to make it even faster, you learn to use google operators and sci-hub to download research papers putting you ahead of the class already. Now that you developed a skillset to do faster research. You WILL look like someone who uses lots of Ne but truth is that because you learned how to get information faster, you invariably learned a lot of that information subconsciously by seeing it being employed in theory or practice over and over again. So it's easier on your working memory to retain new facts and since you have a conceptual understanding with newer facts each time, you will obviously have the capacity to create diverse ideas in your head.

A lot of INTJs take that approach. They've read the right books, can cite the accepted authors, and answer the questions in the way the invigilators set.

But real life isn't like tests. Real life throws all sorts of things at you the you didn't expect, and didn't come up when you used google operators and sci-hub. Sometimes you realise things simply because a friend said something stupid and it set off a connection in your mind.

Ne users usually have this non-linear approach, which forces them to explore the entire virtual landscape of the field. As a result, it takes them longer to learn to get minimal competency of a new task. But once they've mapped the landscape, they know all the routes, and can do almost anything on that topic, at any time, easily, with incredible efficiency.

Makes INTJs good all-rounders, and INTPs into idiot savants (geniuses in several areas, but idiots in others). The former are good for generally maintaining the existing society and infrastructure.

But if you wish to fix major problems in your society, or make significant improvements to your society, and the answers are not immediately obvious to your all-rounders, they probably won't have any better ideas tomorrow either. So you're going to need someone with better or at least different ideas to the ideas of the all-rounders, which means you need people like INTPs to come up with weird ideas of how to improve things that the all-rounders would not have thought of.

Without the INTPs, your society stagnates.

 

[BurnedOut]

Secondly, the whole assumption that people have stable cognitive functions in a hierarchy is also bullshit. It is impossible to have 16 different types of thinking when one has to tackle with long term memory recall, processing working memory with the entrained heuristics and also considering the impact of emotions and level of motivation in that moment. It is impossible to develop a hierarchy of functions in the context of all these processes especislly as a child. According to MBTI, kids are born with such patterned differentiation. That's a bigass LOL.

The prescribed behaviors of all functions are extremely complex and are mathematically impossible to happen by virtue of violation of conjunction rule - P(Ni) > P(Ni, Te, Fi). It's impossible to think in the framework of 3 cognitive functions as the probability of the person using the dominant function more is much higher than the probability of a person using their dominant function with auxillary and tertiary because their functioning is, again, mutually exclusive and mutually exclusive events happening has a probability of p(x) x p(y) which is obviously lower than either p(x) or p(y).

 

[BurnedOut]

Js use more time-based prospective memory.
Ps use more event-based prospective memory.

How does that explain my INTPJ personality? If Ni puportedly searches for patterns, how can it not be Ti because pattern-seeking itself requires a strong conceptual base and it is impossible to seek patterns without some universal logic. That makes INTJs and INTPs fundamentally equal in their introspection. My dad's an INTP and my previous boss is an INTJ (all purportedly) and they can both some incredibly open-minded or opinionated. Similarly I am an INTJ but my brainstorming skills are more or less identical with dad's with the difference being my aphantasia and synesthesia - I am able to compensate for lack of visual imagination by presence of being able to taste and touch logic from time to time. Similarly, I had an INTP friend who disliked brainstorming than penetrating into a subject but at the same time possessed knowledge of several things in contrast to me about certain things and vice versa in differing subjects but he came off as more diverse in his knowledge because his knowledge could be used as social currency - pop culture, music, fashion, traveling. He was gifted too and academically talented and I was not academically that inclined but we both relied on brute-forcing exams through rote memorization to get good marks. He SEEMED more open-minded because he SEEMED more accepting

 

[BurnedOut]

But real life isn't like tests. Real life throws all sorts of things at you the you didn't expect, and didn't come up when you used google operators and sci-hub. Sometimes you realise things simply because a friend said something stupid and it set off a connection in your mind.

How is researching not a life-skill? Knowing how to access information (not misinformation) efficiently is a good life-skill to have to stay on top of your game. Secondly, every brainstorming session needs a cue to begin. That's universal for all personality types and even animals - you should watch a honey badger's brain ticking while solving puzzle boxes.

But if you wish to fix major problems in your society, or make significant improvements to your society, and the answers are not immediately obvious to your all-rounders, they probably won't have any better ideas tomorrow either. So you're going to need someone with better or at least different ideas to the ideas of the all-rounders, which means you need people like INTPs to come up with weird ideas of how to improve things that the all-rounders would not have thought of.

The INTJ I know happens to be quite knowledgeable in his domain but also good at related subjects. Similarly with my dad. But they are both known to be damn open minded but limited to their subjects. Similarly I have a better-an-average understanding of dynamically typed languages to many employed coders I happen to know. Another INTP I know is all-rounder and excellent at picking up new things but not as motivated in mastering is domain

 

[BurnedOut]

Without the INTPs, your society stagnates.

That's hardly the case. I see INTPs telling me that they feel like they are stagnating and unable to contribute anything and the INTJs I know say the same thing. I have heard even an ISTJ and ESTJ say the same thing.

That being said, MBTI literally goes against Kantian ethics by deeming some personality types as being fundamentally unequipped to want as much freedom as NTs when in reality, the removal of structural domination in one's life can inspire tonnes of creativity. The theory does not even sociologically, politically and economically make sense. An INTP without knowledge of banking is always to get his ass handed by a ISFJ who happens to know the same. Similarly an ISTJ is going to be more creative in minecraft in contrast to an INTJ who (according to MBTI) wasted all his time trying things when he could have just read the underlying specification. An ENFP game modder will similarly be better than ENTP gamer at being creative in the game. It's all completely relative to how much you happen to know and how much you have internalized that knowing and supplanted some of your mental heuristics with that knowledge. One who's managed to embed concepts in their heuristical processing is always going to be faster and more creative regardless of their personality type. Scientists have existed throughout history but whackjob open-minded scientists are statistically less likely to exist. If INTP and INTJ are those whackjob scientists, their skill is unrelated to their personality.

Consider this. If I got Ni and Ne both high then Ne and Ni are autocorrelated. That means INTPs can sometimes be INTJs and vice versa. This is vindicated by the fact that people oftentimes keep getting different results. Secondly, the test measures the strength of conjunctions than measuring each trait individually and then in conjunction. This is also mathematically invalid as the dominance of Ti over Ne in an INTP cannot be inferred from deducing the probability of Ti > Ne from observation of both Ti-Ne as Ti having Ne not as its inferior is a higher probability than Ti having Ne being its inferior. You cannot have a personality theory

Lastly, it's impossible to type someone by their works and writings (barring purely technical works) because those works simply reflect their biases and opinions. Their works are not cross-verified by other people's opinions of them and the prevalent circumstances. Only a historian takes such an unbiased approach. If Da Vinci is an INTP and is popular, it's solely because he was popular and not because he did not have contemporaries. But nobody typed his contemporaries. If his contemporaries happen to have diverse histories but the same type, you can attribute it to being a cultural thing in that particular enclave of people. Typing people based on their autobiographies, speeches and works violates the rigorous methodology of history-taking

 

[fluffy]

Good story telling cannot be written down in formulaic fashion, therefore stories don't exist. sic

The difference between me and my sister is obviously clear. Extraverted Sensory she can see all the details and introverted feeling she has extreme reactions to things emotionally.

A test for this is stupid. Test designers don't know what the hell they are doing. They are for business use (ESTJ / ENTJ CEO people) not personal use so of course the tests will rank you based on what good you can serve the corporate system and not care about real distinctions.

The reason you think these tests are bullshit is because you rely on leadership be competent or incompetent. So everything associated with incompetent is absolutely false. Black and white empirical thinking. Is or is not. Same for people views on A.I. the hype is confused for what is possible so they get disappointed and say ALL a.i. is bullshit - all vaccines are bullshit - all science is a scam so believe in flat earth and an ice wall.

Ni is intuition, it comes from within can be wrong but often right because time oriented - what's next, what's next, what's next? So creates itself. Ne is external, INFP get it as a comic books story in that oh that idea is so cool or oh that idea is so horrible, it's non linear. ENTP make shit up to by Ti is about testing things in the mind not empirically as Te does. Often they get stuck so need Ne to get ideas from environment. Where Ni just is silent and oh that's the answer pops into their heads. No need to look at things.

Ni -> Te idea pops in, lets confirm it by testing chemistry and gears and levers. Research it to death and make sure everything can be known about it.

Ne -> Ti look at that picture of a transistor from 1947 what could it be, maybe it's like a crystal from Atlantis, let's think of how light can be used as living light vibrations for computation and do a presentation in fifth grade. (Actually all I knew was that the transistor was important, I didn't know it was a logic gate but it was important and in seventh grade I saw the book on Atlantis, still I presented it to the class) I cannot do research good. INFP get the same line of thoughts for emotional there emotions.

I get really random in thoughts INTJ don't. But it's extremely creative. ISFP told me crystals can be used to influence brain waves. I told them biofeedback used computers, to adjust algorithms to affect different brains areas. They can skateboard and feel all the sensations vibrations everywhere. They have fighter jet reflexes and sniper vision. I cannot test this but I see science stuff all the time and reflection on what's possible. INTJ need absolute proof because so much time testing. Math and reports or it did not happen!

 

[ZenRaiden]

I feel like main problem with people working MBTI, is that people are ascribing too much or too little to MBTI.

Either devaluing to a fault or overvaluing to a fault, and the reason for this is simply not understanding MBTI.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

- not static
- is map not territory
- is entirely theoretical
- dichotomies are not really good idea, but rather gradients
- we are both E and I depends on situations.

BINGO

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Without the INTPs, your society stagnates.

That's hardly the case. I see INTPs telling me that they feel like they are stagnating and unable to contribute anything and the INTJs I know say the same thing. I have heard even an ISTJ and ESTJ say the same thing.

That being said, MBTI literally goes against Kantian ethics by deeming some personality types as being fundamentally unequipped to want as much freedom as NTs when in reality, the removal of structural domination in one's life can inspire tonnes of creativity. The theory does not even sociologically, politically and economically make sense. An INTP without knowledge of banking is always to get his ass handed by a ISFJ who happens to know the same. Similarly an ISTJ is going to be more creative in minecraft in contrast to an INTJ who (according to MBTI) wasted all his time trying things when he could have just read the underlying specification. An ENFP game modder will similarly be better than ENTP gamer at being creative in the game. It's all completely relative to how much you happen to know and how much you have internalized that knowing and supplanted some of your mental heuristics with that knowledge. One who's managed to embed concepts in their heuristical processing is always going to be faster and more creative regardless of their personality type. Scientists have existed throughout history but whackjob open-minded scientists are statistically less likely to exist. If INTP and INTJ are those whackjob scientists, their skill is unrelated to their personality.

Consider this. If I got Ni and Ne both high then Ne and Ni are autocorrelated. That means INTPs can sometimes be INTJs and vice versa. This is vindicated by the fact that people oftentimes keep getting different results. Secondly, the test measures the strength of conjunctions than measuring each trait individually and then in conjunction. This is also mathematically invalid as the dominance of Ti over Ne in an INTP cannot be inferred from deducing the probability of Ti > Ne from observation of both Ti-Ne as Ti having Ne not as its inferior is a higher probability than Ti having Ne being its inferior. You cannot have a personality theory

Lastly, it's impossible to type someone by their works and writings (barring purely technical works) because those works simply reflect their biases and opinions. Their works are not cross-verified by other people's opinions of them and the prevalent circumstances. Only a historian takes such an unbiased approach. If Da Vinci is an INTP and is popular, it's solely because he was popular and not because he did not have contemporaries. But nobody typed his contemporaries. If his contemporaries happen to have diverse histories but the same type, you can attribute it to being a cultural thing in that particular enclave of people. Typing people based on their autobiographies, speeches and works violates the rigorous methodology of history-taking

SCATHING CRITIQUE


OBVIOUSLY THE WORK OF AN INTP

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Another INTP I know is all-rounder and excellent at picking up new things but not as motivated in mastering is domain

YEP

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

But if you wish to fix major problems in your society, or make significant improvements to your society, and the answers are not immediately obvious