Mano-sphere criticism

[ZenRaiden]

I find here style of presenting her research very funny. Also interesting factoids included.

On topic of this I think there is not much to say.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

16 minutes in she hasn't really said anything new or that IDK. Still, if she's just trying to give a comprehensive coverage of the subject, then it seems like a good watch.

She's pretty witty, so the humor doesn't hurt either.

 

[dr froyd]

i managed to watch the first 20 mins (on 2x speed)

it's interesting she throws in pictures of owen cook a few places - i watched his stuff in my early 20s almost 15 years ago. This was wayyyyy before the new feminist movements emerged in the post-2016 era. Those guys didn't really represent the "manosphere", they were more concerned with correcting fundamental flaws in how men viewed dating - flaws that often emerged out of ideas from pop-culture views on how romantic dynamics actually work. Because after all, even back then, young men started to become disoriented on account of lacking guidance, role models, and values.

i don't really follow the current "manosphere" stuff because i view it as mostly cheap copies of the oldschool stuff, but i can see why there's a demand for it. The reason people like jordan peterson became popular is that he filled an extreme vacuum in role models for young men.

which is why this idiotic woman almost makes me puke. She is trying to make a mockery out of the last resort for men in a society that has done everything to squash any remnants of masculine values and role models. When she quips that she will physically assault any man that tries to approach her in a gym she exemplifies the essence of the problem; a large population of women who have become "empowered" to the level of dictating any terms they like to men, and a population of men who have no way of knowing how to act.

I'm not sure what she "debunked", other than her own capacity for humor and insight into society

 

[Puffy]

i managed to watch the first 20 mins (on 2x speed)

it's interesting she throws in pictures of owen cook a few places - i watched his stuff in my early 20s almost 15 years ago. This was wayyyyy before the new feminist movements emerged in the post-2016 era. Those guys didn't really represent the "manosphere", they were more concerned with correcting fundamental flaws in how men viewed dating - flaws that often emerged out of ideas from pop-culture views on how romantic dynamics actually work. Because after all, even back then, young men started to become disoriented on account of lacking guidance, role models, and values.

i don't really follow the current "manosphere" stuff because i view it as mostly cheap copies of the oldschool stuff, but i can see why there's a demand for it. The reason people like jordan peterson became popular is that he filled an extreme vacuum in role models for young men.

which is why this idiotic woman almost makes me puke. She is trying to make a mockery out of the last resort for men in a society that has done everything to squash any remnants of masculine values and role models. When she quips that she will physically assault any man that tries to approach her in a gym she exemplifies the essence of the problem; a large population of women who have become "empowered" to the level of dictating any terms they like to men, and a population of men who have no way of knowing how to act.

I'm not sure what she "debunked", other than her own capacity for humor and insight into society

Which manosphere influencers do you look up to as providing good role model advice to young men?

 

[Cognisant]

Modern women are third-wave feminists who hate men and there's no appeasing them as any supplication is just an invitation for abuse.

There's nothing men can do about this, you may stuggle to believe this but men aren't the exclusive source of all the world's problems, women can be toxic too.

But nobody's willing to have that conversation so now we have more single people than ever before and it's only getting worse as time goes by and the far right continues to grow.

 

[fractalwalrus]

Modern women are third-wave feminists who hate men and there's no appeasing them as any supplication is just an invitation for abuse

It is beliefs like this that will contribute to the growing far right that you speak of. If you are someone who thinks this way, I would imagine that a group which tells men they are victimized and pits them against women would sound pretty appealing to them. Realistically, what percentage of women do you believe are third-wave feminists?

There's nothing men can do about this, you may stuggle to believe this but men aren't the exclusive source of all the world's problems, women can be toxic too.

Yeah, I would agree that women are capable of being toxic, and it would require that one believe that "toxicity" is exclusive to the arrangement of certain sequences of genes unique to the XX arrangement of chromosomes, or how women are socialized differently to men. I have not heard of evidence that substantiate either of those claims, an in fact, have met "toxic" women before.

 

[dr froyd]

Which manosphere influencers do you look up to as providing good role model advice to young men?

right now i wouldn't know. To me the current manosphere stuff seems to focus on the wrong things - being a reactionary movement it seems to aspire to a dumbed-down, caricature version of masculinity.

for me, it was people like David Deangelo and Owen Cook. The latter is still going but deviated into more spiritual stuff (nothing wrong with that but not my style). Deangelo eventually focused more on entreprenurship coching or something. But I remember listening to his audiobook when I was 17, it had a big impact on me. It's supposed to deal with dating but goes deep into many things, it is available here:

 

[Puffy]

Which manosphere influencers do you look up to as providing good role model advice to young men?

right now i wouldn't know. To me the current manosphere stuff seems to focus on the wrong things - being a reactionary movement it seems to aspire to a dumbed-down, caricature version of masculinity.

for me, it was people like David Deangelo and Owen Cook. The latter is still going but deviated into more spiritual stuff (nothing wrong with that but not my style). Deangelo eventually focused more on entreprenurship coching or something. But I remember listening to his audiobook when I was 17, it had a big impact on me. It's supposed to deal with dating but goes deep into many things, it is available here:

I’ll check it out, thanks!

My personal take on the broader thread is that sometimes people can be too black and white or tribal about this, taking either a strongly manosphere reactive or woke feminist perspective. There’s aspects of what she says that are true for example and can be integrated as valid concerns for men to be mindful of, like about rape culture and the real sense of threat and intimidation some women experience dating.

At the same time space needs to exist for men to get more in touch with their own masculinity and to be able to express it in a healthy way. As really this is what works for both genders and what both genders need, at the very least in the context of heterosexuality.

 

[ZenRaiden]

She gets more done in the latter phase of video, and she addresses the things that currently run the manosphere.

I am sure men need role models. We all do better when we have them.
But those role models need to be worth it.
I think she did a good job addressing a larger portion of myths that men have and stand by which was point of video. She was not attacking species of men as such.

 

[ZenRaiden]

At the same time space needs to exist for men to get more in touch with their own masculinity and to be able to express it in a healthy way.

I am not sure what this means for anyone man.
I don't know what people need at any point of life.
But joining a freaking sports club, or doing something conventionally manly is not impossible. Its not like Zuckerberg is holding man down glued to keyboards everyday and telling them to spend their time shitting on the world, instead of doing something that is healthy even in conventionally meaning of the word.
When she says how dudes spend 3 hours looking at a video about x issue of alpha life as if you have no options its pretty ridiculous. I am a male myself, ain't no one convincing me that male masculine activities don't exist today. The fuck people want more.
Our fathers had half the options we have today.

 

[ZenRaiden]

it had a big impact on me.

Did have big impact, in what way?

 

[Puffy]

At the same time space needs to exist for men to get more in touch with their own masculinity and to be able to express it in a healthy way.

I am not sure what this means for anyone man.
I don't know what people need at any point of life.
But joining a freaking sports club, or doing something conventionally manly is not impossible. Its not like Zuckerberg is holding man down glued to keyboards everyday and telling them to spend their time shitting on the world, instead of doing something that is healthy even in conventionally meaning of the word.
When she says how dudes spend 3 hours looking at a video about x issue of alpha life as if you have no options its pretty ridiculous. I am a male myself, ain't no one convincing me that male masculine activities don't exist today. The fuck people want more.
Our fathers had half the options we have today.

Personally I'm not sure I believe that femininity and masculinity are entirely socially constructed concepts, they're likely a mix of nature and nurture. People are all very diverse and you know yourself better than I do to say what works for you. But I'm fine with my lazy phrasing here as I never technically said "all men" and intended it more in a general sense. In the same general way I could say, "[heterosexual] men like tits and asses [such as the recent thread of only fans videos you created], and women like tall men with big dicks."

 

[ZenRaiden]

Personally I'm not sure I believe that femininity and masculinity are entirely socially constructed concepts, they're likely a mix of nature and nurture. People are all very diverse and you know yourself better than I do to say what works for you. But I'm fine with my lazy phrasing here as I never technically said "all men" and intended it more in a general sense. In the same general way I could say, "[heterosexual] men like tits and asses [such as the recent thread of only fans videos you created], and women like tall men with big dicks."

True, I guess.
Ultimately masculinity is kind of concept that gets weaved in through experiences.
I assume those experiences are including other men, but masculinity is also in relation to having women or homo relations. The thing is I believe that people focus too much on the concept as opposed to just living it. It happens in life not somewhere in the head. To me the idea you can talk your way into feeling masculine is kind of funny.
More so I view people like life long beings that don't just get made like in mafia, but happen to evolve or devolve in life. More or less.

I also think that masculinity is composed of internal experiences not just approval of some father figure.

 

[dr froyd]

it had a big impact on me.

Did have big impact, in what way?

in the sense that it provided guidance on many things - guidance which is hard to come by elsewhere

for example getting rid of all victim mentality and assume agency over one's actions and circumstances. Nobody had told me about that. That's a very different message than most people grow up with nowadays i think, where the message seems to be that you're supposed to bitch and complain about society and that you're entitled to this and that

 

[EndogenousRebel]

At the same time space needs to exist for men to get more in touch with their own masculinity and to be able to express it in a healthy way.

I am not sure what this means for anyone man.
I don't know what people need at any point of life.
But joining a freaking sports club, or doing something conventionally manly is not impossible. Its not like Zuckerberg is holding man down glued to keyboards everyday and telling them to spend their time shitting on the world, instead of doing something that is healthy even in conventionally meaning of the word.
When she says how dudes spend 3 hours looking at a video about x issue of alpha life as if you have no options its pretty ridiculous. I am a male myself, ain't no one convincing me that male masculine activities don't exist today. The fuck people want more.
Our fathers had half the options we have today.

Personally I'm not sure I believe that femininity and masculinity are entirely socially constructed concepts, they're likely a mix of nature and nurture. People are all very diverse and you know yourself better than I do to say what works for you. But I'm fine with my lazy phrasing here as I never technically said "all men" and intended it more in a general sense. In the same general way I could say, "[heterosexual] men like tits and asses [such as the recent thread of only fans videos you created], and women like tall men with big dicks."

I've thought about this, I think the issue here is that people want to make an object out of something that cannot be measured.

Is the hunter-gatherer instinct real? The urge to farm, horde, and reduce resource expenditure?

Certainly in some animals more than others. I would saying that humans exhibit these sort of characteristics at times.

I don't see chimps or gorillas arguing about masculinity and femininity, usually you just see the bigger animal subjugating the smaller ones. Independent of the species or sex of such animal.

It would seem to me that masculinity and femininity are something that other animals do not need in order to reproduce, survive, and thrive.

The question should be: do we need concepts such as masculinity and femininity to function as a civilization?

I think that this is a yes? Ironically? We can't even have this conversation, because if you even try to dim someone else's masculinity, (revoke their man card )most people's egos go bananas. Hairline trigger Iykyk

 

[ZenRaiden]

in the sense that it provided guidance on many things - guidance which is hard to come by elsewhere

for example getting rid of all victim mentality and assume agency over one's actions and circumstances.

There is value in that.