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Feminine?

fluffy

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I can see myself being this way.

A trouble I have is appearance.

Yet what if appearances could change?

With these new devices I hear of a person can be anything in a computer game world. I am talking of glasses that allows you to have a special avatar.

Is this a strange or odd idea?
 

EndogenousRebel

Even a mean person is trying their best, right?
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Talk to a professional about that.

Your relationship to this concept "femininity" is one I wouldn't leave in the hands of someone who is not on the hook for you mental health and general wellbeing. Not a mishmash of people on a forum.

Strange is a relative thing, according to culture, time period, circumstance.

It's true, you can vicariously explore a different identity digitally. Im not sure how healthy that is in general, but it's important to note that most social connection on the internet is superficial.

On that note, do tell us what that processional tells you ;)
 

dr froyd

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107106882-16609532781660953275-24984409535-1080pnbcnews.jpg
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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I can see myself being this way.

A trouble I have is appearance.

Yet what if appearances could change?

With these new devices I hear of a person can be anything in a computer game world. I am talking of glasses that allows you to have a special avatar.

Is this a strange or odd idea?

try different things and see what you like
 

fractalwalrus

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I can see myself being this way.

A trouble I have is appearance.

Yet what if appearances could change?

With these new devices I hear of a person can be anything in a computer game world. I am talking of glasses that allows you to have a special avatar.

Is this a strange or odd idea?
I am actually curious to know if individuals like yourself tend towards these preferences for aesthetic reasons (ie they have an affinity for objects, color palettes, etc) that our society has arbitrarily deemed should be for one gender, or is it more of a desire to want to be treated differently in terms of gender role prescriptions, or perhaps it is both of these or something else. I imagine there would be variable reasons for this among individuals, but there is a position called "gender abolitionism" out there which (should the idea have become accepted en masse) could alleviate the need for one who wishes to be treated differently based upon their visible sex characteristics, to not need to transition in order to receive this treatment. I have heard of some individuals actually reporting that they feel incorrect physically (ie that they should have genitalia that they do not), but I thought these individuals were even more rare than those who experience gender dysphoria.
 

fluffy

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I am actually curious to know if individuals like yourself tend towards these preferences for aesthetic reasons (ie they have an affinity for objects, color palettes, etc) that our society has arbitrarily deemed should be for one gender, or is it more of a desire to want to be treated differently in terms of gender role prescriptions, or perhaps it is both of these or something else. I imagine there would be variable reasons for this among individuals, but there is a position called "gender abolitionism" out there which (should the idea have become accepted en masse) could alleviate the need for one who wishes to be treated differently based upon their visible sex characteristics, to not need to transition in order to receive this treatment. I have heard of some individuals actually reporting that they feel incorrect physically (ie that they should have genitalia that they do not), but I thought these individuals were even more rare than those who experience gender dysphoria.

It would come to what I think is the emotional state of gender how I feel about myself where the difference between boys and girls is a psychological barrier most cannot cross in terms of understanding. Men must feel strong in a way women would feel strong about her way. That is to say confidence is rather morphed by a sense of one's body. And being ones self is quite adaquite if we believe it can do its role. What role is the emotional connection to that drive.

As a teenager would know they are going to play an adult what adult will they be. Often the male protects and the female nurtures. This can be said to come naturally. Withe this comes an exterior aesthetic. A man dedicates himself to work harder and a woman to understand others needs. How can I show this to others is the mindset growing up.

Based on that you cannot be weak emotionally as a man and you shouldn't fight as a girl while boys do. Looking in the mirror you gain some kind of intuition of what a fighter looks like and what a nurturer looks like. Barbie does not look like a jacked football player, the hulk does. Those are extremes but they also demonstrate what happens in the inside as well. Teenagers have this culturally ingrained but also this morphs the brains physiology as well.

I can also say that this divides men and women in the misunderstanding of the sexs. The more masculine the more embude with a sense of emotional stoicism. For women they want to feel all kinds of non stoic things. This being irrational in the eyes of men in their decisions. And to overly feminine women men cannot have empathy.

The line drawn between them as children grow into adults is to separate men from women having guys do guy things with other guys. And women gal things with the gals. Where this leaves people is in a sort of tension of one's role that doesn't fit with the groups norms. Bullying happens by the selected gender of the peer group. Not by the opposite genderd peer group. Boys tease boys and girls tease girls as not fitting in. Oftentimes boy get bullied for teasing girls but not girl because boys can take it, depends on the girls peer group norms.

Treatment is a factor but it requires the distinction of how one gender understands the other. To have more empathy from others does not change the inside. A man will want admiration from other men. Women will want heartfelt "you get me" type bond from other women. These two things have a different emotion tone. Respect vs shared feels.

A respected man is still stoic a woman treats other women as they would there own child. So to expect from others of the same gender what one expects for themselves is not the same experience between the male male relationships and the female female relationships. Women want men to care about them to be respected, men want women to respect them to care.

This dynamic where a woman will help other women by understanding them is to feel their emotions with them then do things together. Men will share the same experience together that is no necessary about emotions but about actions first. Personal growth then is a bipolarity shift spinning in opposite directions. A gender shares things with their gender that would confuse the other gender.

When I have looked at this from my life's experience I can often empathize with female protagonist more than the males as being myself. The male protagonist is the other to me that I hope success rather than being who I am. The girl is more relatable. I think this comes from the shows I saw growing up. Sailor Moon being one, and I have seen many episodes of my little pony.

In terms of looks I want to be the protagonist not to be treated differently but to be the character I am supposed to be. I am agnostic about transitioning because I am not homosexual. Men to me are just people who I see as good or bad father figures but I am attracted to females which includes sexually. Some people feel wrong with the parts they have. I do not but it would not bother me whether I was born female. The physiology would be more socially conditioned if born female. I am attracted to females but if I looked female it would feel wrong not to have female parts.

So I would not feel either way male or female would be something else as I am born. But I am more the female protagonist than male and I feel for them. The characteristic opposite would be the show "A band of brothers" of world war two vets. They had what seems relatable to men if men sacrifice for each other to come together. Sailor Moon being more, please believe in each other no matter what and we can face anything.
 

fractalwalrus

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Often the male protects and the female nurtures. This can be said to come naturally.
The research on this you may find surprising: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/feeling-it/201306/are-women-really-more-compassionate

Oftentimes boy get bullied for teasing girls but not girl because boys can take it, depends on the girls peer group norms.
Yes, there's been a lot of misunderstanding out in pop culture about what feminism actually is, so much so that most men fail to recognize that it (in its less radical forms) would benefit men as well as women. Men are socialized to be "tough." Tough to do what? Tough to withstand what? What if being tough is just submission to one's circumstances? How can one who serves a master (another human or group of humans) be said to be "tough?" No, they are not tough. Their version of tough just gives them bragging rights among cowards. The rights to tell others that they can withstand their punishment better than the others, instead of altering the circumstances which give rise to their punishment. They call themselves tough to hide their subservient natures, and their faux toughness serves to provide them with validation from their peers.

n terms of looks I want to be the protagonist not to be treated differently but to be the character I am supposed to be. I am agnostic about transitioning because I am not homosexual. Men to me are just people who I see as good or bad father figures but I am attracted to females which includes sexually.
Ok, you do kind of need to be treated differently in order to be this protagonist. If you are treated as we have deemed acceptable to treat men, then you will find it difficult to retain your nature. Interestingly enough: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21331499/ -"elevated boyhood femininity correlated with higher IQ scores"
 

fluffy

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In my words

Gender differences show up early in life. Boys and girls treated girls more fairly and even prioritize them above themselves especially the girls. Boys were more mean to other boys.

Of course this is the norm but personality fluctuates. Some boys are kinder and some girls are meaner. It is at an early stage of development. As they grow up things may change. But not so much that difference goes away.

Boys learn to be tough to get what they want. That part should be obvious. It is not something to be grown out of. Evolution requires it. Toughness came from competition. Girls compete less.

This is why more boys get diagnosed with ADHD in school. They cannot sit still. My brother was that way. He wanted to do what he wanted to do. Girls more likely finish school. Because they don't need to go anywhere but boys have to move to learn how to hunt. Constant competition. Physically that is. Girls would need to be top girl but that has nothing to do with killing animals running great distances or wrestling others. The social aspect of life happens at home not in the wild. It's regarding women's social life of being around other women. Not that they did not hunt but that they had no time because of the children.

A mean boy usually survive if he can treat the other persons as they deserve but nothing to do with unfairness. A mean girl damages others in ways that destroy social cohesion. How will children survive if all the women are mean. So then it's more about separating genders after puberty so they can be socialized correctly by the adults. This happened over a period of one hundred thousands of years. So it had to be embedded somehow in the biology.
 

Puffy

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I used to identify more as feminine when I was younger and up until my 20s only had female or lgbt friends. For me I think this was because of a difficult relationship with my Dad and Granddad ‘s and a lack of strong male role models. I would say I’ve become more masculine since then and find it easier bonding with other men than I used to. So these things do and can change.

That said I’ve never considered myself gender dysphoric so I’m not sure what that personally feels like. There’s of course nothing wrong with it and it’s perfectly fine to have a different gender identity than the one assigned at birth.

Like others have said it’s a sensitive area and it would probably be beneficial to speak with someone who specialises in that area.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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Gender differences show up early in life. Boys and girls treated girls more fairly and even prioritize them above themselves especially the girls. Boys were more mean to other boys.

 

fractalwalrus

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Gender differences show up early in life. Boys and girls treated girls more fairly and even prioritize them above themselves especially the girls. Boys were more mean to other boys.
I have seen some information on the Big 5 trait differences between men and women, and the one with the greatest contrast (though not as dramatic as one would think) is agreeableness. This would track with what you are saying here.

That part should be obvious. It is not something to be grown out of. Evolution requires it.
Not as obvious as you would think. Evolutionary biologists have largely shifted their attitudes towards individual "competition" as being the primary mode of survival of a given species.

So it had to be embedded somehow in the biology.
This is possible, but it is also possible that socialization plays a partial role. I think hyenas are one species where females are aggressive and dominant while males are submissive. It is not a hard and fast rule, but sure, it would make sense that in species with a large degree of sexual dimorphism you would see the physically less imposing ones decide not to adapt aggression as a viable strategy.
 

fluffy

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in species with a large degree of sexual dimorphism

If that dimorphism is on the inside as much as on the outside then is needs an evolutionary explanation.

What do men do. They fight. They defend the tribe. Pregnant women don't. This seems to be the biggest selection pressure.

So women avoid what will kill the baby and men kill what is trying to kill the woman. And whoever would take the woman away to another tribe. That is where the competition arises. Tribe vs tribe. Men need to be aggressive for that reason and women don't. The group has division of what role they play that are necessary not just a social construct. And over tens of thousands of years.
 

fractalwalrus

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If that dimorphism is on the inside as much as on the outside then is needs an evolutionary explanation.
It may not be.

What do men do. They fight. They defend the tribe. Pregnant women don't. This seems to be the biggest selection pressure.
SOME men fight in societies that decide to do such things. The ones that do have a higher chance of dying before maximizing their production of offspring. Some men claim health problems in order to avoid the draft. Who has a higher chance of living?

So women avoid what will kill the baby and men kill what is trying to kill the woman.
Then there is infanticide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide . Seems "natural selection" is a bit more nuanced than some may think.
 

fluffy

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@fractalwalrus

What would you say the reason behind the psychological differences in men and women are given there were many years of evolution that happened. Bipeds came into existence around 3 million years ago I think?
 

fractalwalrus

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@fractalwalrus

What would you say the reason behind the psychological differences in men and women are given there were many years of evolution that happened. Bipeds came into existence around 3 million years ago I think?
I should be more precise here with what I was saying. So, I would not dispute the claim that there is a general variance in how males and females tend to behave as a whole (as this is what the data I have seen confirms). Where I think there is still room for discussion available is in the realm of the magnitude of dimorphism in physical characteristics relative to the magnitude of dimorphism (as you had referred to it) present in the form of behavioral differences. This would largely depend on how one could even go about quantifying these differences in the first place. Interestingly, the study I linked showed this:

big5.jpg

source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/

I would expect that there would be selective pressures present to act as a control against certain behaviors, but I do not know that we have accurately identified which behaviors were selected against. Some individuals have a tendency to claim that certain behaviors are "unnatural" because evolution would have selected against them, and yet the behaviors have been observed to persist (albeit in relatively small concentrations when compared to the norm). The distribution of these traits among males and females seems to vary by ethnicity as well. Are these differences hardwired, or are they socialized? As per your linked study about early behaviors:
"Previous research showed that fairness attitudes develop in childhood, but their—possibly gendered, developmental trajectory remains unclear.

"We hypothesised that gender-related fairness attitudes might depend not only on the gender of the Allocator, but also on that of the Recipient. To examine this, we tested 332 three to 8-year-old children in a paired resource allocation task, with both boys and girls acting as Allocators and Recipients.

We indeed found gender-related effects: girls more than boys aimed to reduce advantageous inequity, and Allocators of both genders were more averse against male Recipients being better off.

Notably, older girls exhibited an envy bias, i.e., they tolerated disadvantageous inequity more when the resource allocation was in favour of other girls than when it favoured boys." source: https://neurosciencenews.com/neurodevelopment-sharing-psychology-27807/

The children surveyed were around 7-8 years old, which is still far enough along in development to have observed a few things about their surrounding society. That being said, my familiarity with the literature suggests that testosterone may make males more competitive (though the type of competition shown is highly context dependent): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9901191/.

But anyways, to clear up confusion, the reason I said that SOME men need to fight is because that was how it was historically, though the percentage of men in a given population that needed to fight has seen an uptick with mass conscription as opposed to the feudal levy. Hunter-gatherer tribes could probably afford to lose a few male individuals, but the tribe would probably be hobbled if it lost too many, as tasks would need to be divided up differently. If you sent too many peasants to die in a war, you're going to lose your agricultural surplus.
 

ZenRaiden

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Is this a strange or odd idea?
No, not at all. I thought of being female too.
I am not feminine, but I am empathic if my emotions work right in the moment.
I also think feminine makes sense more in respect to men.
Ergo I care about feminine in relation to a woman I am in relationship.

I would say feminine is matter of degrees too.

But one thing I noticed is that circumstances really alter how we behave and how we act.
For instance in war men are way more caring about other man.
They have tendency to care for each others wounds, and they have tendency to have great deal of empathy for each-other.
Which helps them to otherwise deal with harsh world of war.
But men tend to be very hard on each other when they are in competitive relations in hierarchy.
Who gets to be the big boss, who gets to be the omega that does not get food if starving.
Who gets special respect etc.
When you have rather cohesive and secure group of men that trust each other you can get pretty balanced and well caring individuals.

When it comes to women they form different idea of hierarchy.
They care about kids, and they care about people getting attention and emotional support right from the get go.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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@fractalwalrus

What would you say the reason behind the psychological differences in men and women are given there were many years of evolution that happened. Bipeds came into existence around 3 million years ago I think?
I should be more precise here with what I was saying. So, I would not dispute the claim that there is a general variance in how males and females tend to behave as a whole (as this is what the data I have seen confirms). Where I think there is still room for discussion available is in the realm of the magnitude of dimorphism in physical characteristics relative to the magnitude of dimorphism (as you had referred to it) present in the form of behavioral differences. This would largely depend on how one could even go about quantifying these differences in the first place. Interestingly, the study I linked showed this:

View attachment 8352
source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/

I would expect that there would be selective pressures present to act as a control against certain behaviors, but I do not know that we have accurately identified which behaviors were selected against. Some individuals have a tendency to claim that certain behaviors are "unnatural" because evolution would have selected against them, and yet the behaviors have been observed to persist (albeit in relatively small concentrations when compared to the norm). The distribution of these traits among males and females seems to vary by ethnicity as well. Are these differences hardwired, or are they socialized? As per your linked study about early behaviors:
"Previous research showed that fairness attitudes develop in childhood, but their—possibly gendered, developmental trajectory remains unclear.

"We hypothesised that gender-related fairness attitudes might depend not only on the gender of the Allocator, but also on that of the Recipient. To examine this, we tested 332 three to 8-year-old children in a paired resource allocation task, with both boys and girls acting as Allocators and Recipients.

We indeed found gender-related effects: girls more than boys aimed to reduce advantageous inequity, and Allocators of both genders were more averse against male Recipients being better off.

Notably, older girls exhibited an envy bias, i.e., they tolerated disadvantageous inequity more when the resource allocation was in favour of other girls than when it favoured boys." source: https://neurosciencenews.com/neurodevelopment-sharing-psychology-27807/

The children surveyed were around 7-8 years old, which is still far enough along in development to have observed a few things about their surrounding society. That being said, my familiarity with the literature suggests that testosterone may make males more competitive (though the type of competition shown is highly context dependent): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9901191/.

But anyways, to clear up confusion, the reason I said that SOME men need to fight is because that was how it was historically, though the percentage of men in a given population that needed to fight has seen an uptick with mass conscription as opposed to the feudal levy. Hunter-gatherer tribes could probably afford to lose a few male individuals, but the tribe would probably be hobbled if it lost too many, as tasks would need to be divided up differently. If you sent too many peasants to die in a war, you're going to lose your agricultural surplus.

well stated
 
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