Disbelief of Self

[dark]

I at times feel I have went insane. I spent my entire high school life professing to be insane. I constantly fight against myself. I feel I am evil and I enjoy it. I deceive people. I play tricks on them and they never know it. I construct events just to see how people react. I don't lie to people, I just don't tell everything, this some how tricks my mind into not feeling guilt.

Now why am I saying this? I have no clue. I at times disbelieve my own self. Like why the hell do I do these things? Is this really me? Do I want to do these things? Then I tell myself I will stop being Loki, then not five minutes later I find myself playing another prank... No one but myself is laughing, so why do I do these things?

I think I may have figured it out. We essentially are born with our own individual self. But as we are raised, myself by an ISFJ mother, we gain the semi-conscious of them. We do not walk through life without being touched by everyone who we interact with. And as we meet these people we take parts of them and add it to our own being. Since we are all here on this forum I assume we agree that we run basically on two functions, so it doesn't matter which system you believe in. Now it is also said that we use the other functions but not as good and some we have no control over at all.

So when we encounter these others, these people with functions unlike our own we take from them. We learn their what-evers that make them them. Of course it may not be a conscious thing so there is no way to prove this idea, and as of now I am just writing blindly.

Now back to the main point. Why do we fight ourselves? I have no clue, but I would assume it comes from the world around us. What we have learned from others.

Like right now I question whether I should ask this cute girl that started talking to me the other day that is in three of my classes. Not to long ago I went into a thing where my scientific self fought with my artistic self. One wanted me to change my major to Physics, while the other said, no we are where we want to be. Luckily my artistic side won. I stopped reading science books, went back to philosophy, fiction and started writing small stuff and have picked the guitar back up after about 5 months.

What is it that causes us to change? To experience moments of disbelief of our own self? To question where we are going, is this really what I want? Is it that these things that we change to are what we wanted all along or do we change our motives and needs depending on circumstances?

Now I have no clue what I am getting at here, like most things apparently. I am not sure if this is a spur of the moment thought brought on from working out in the freezing cold for 13 hours today causing fatigue or some other thought process.

Is this a common thing to experience momentary disbelief of ones self? Or is that just part of my nature to question everything? I am quite well known for having all the questions in my social life.

Going to end this here since I am not sure I am even going anywhere, will go to sleep and come back tomorrow and see if I even make sense to myself.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Now back to the main point. Why do we fight ourselves? I have no clue, but I would assume it comes from the world around us. What we have learned from others.

...

What is it that causes us to change? To experience moments of disbelief of our own self? To question where we are going, is this really what I want? Is it that these things that we change to are what we wanted all along or do we change our motives and needs depending on circumstances?

...

Is this a common thing to experience momentary disbelief of ones self? Or is that just part of my nature to question everything? I am quite well known for having all the questions in my social life.

I'm pretty sure I'm always in this state - the reverse of you. I have momentary belief in myself. Otherwise I'm constantly doubting the world and my abilities.

 

[Zeldon]

I at times feel I have went insane. I spent my entire high school life professing to be insane. I constantly fight against myself. I feel I am evil and I enjoy it. I deceive people. I play tricks on them and they never know it. I construct events just to see how people react. I don't lie to people, I just don't tell everything, this some how tricks my mind into not feeling guilt.

Now why am I saying this? I have no clue. I at times disbelieve my own self. Like why the hell do I do these things? Is this really me? Do I want to do these things? Then I tell myself I will stop being Loki, then not five minutes later I find myself playing another prank... No one but myself is laughing, so why do I do these things?

I think I may have figured it out. We essentially are born with our own individual self. But as we are raised, myself by an ISFJ mother, we gain the semi-conscious of them. We do not walk through life without being touched by everyone who we interact with. And as we meet these people we take parts of them and add it to our own being. Since we are all here on this forum I assume we agree that we run basically on two functions, so it doesn't matter which system you believe in. Now it is also said that we use the other functions but not as good and some we have no control over at all.

So when we encounter these others, these people with functions unlike our own we take from them. We learn their what-evers that make them them. Of course it may not be a conscious thing so there is no way to prove this idea, and as of now I am just writing blindly.

Now back to the main point. Why do we fight ourselves? I have no clue, but I would assume it comes from the world around us. What we have learned from others.

Like right now I question whether I should ask this cute girl that started talking to me the other day that is in three of my classes. Not to long ago I went into a thing where my scientific self fought with my artistic self. One wanted me to change my major to Physics, while the other said, no we are where we want to be. Luckily my artistic side won. I stopped reading science books, went back to philosophy, fiction and started writing small stuff and have picked the guitar back up after about 5 months.

What is it that causes us to change? To experience moments of disbelief of our own self? To question where we are going, is this really what I want? Is it that these things that we change to are what we wanted all along or do we change our motives and needs depending on circumstances?

Now I have no clue what I am getting at here, like most things apparently. I am not sure if this is a spur of the moment thought brought on from working out in the freezing cold for 13 hours today causing fatigue or some other thought process.

Is this a common thing to experience momentary disbelief of ones self? Or is that just part of my nature to question everything? I am quite well known for having all the questions in my social life.

Going to end this here since I am not sure I am even going anywhere, will go to sleep and come back tomorrow and see if I even make sense to myself.

You people really disgust me. This is the crap I have been dealing with all my life. They abuse people when they are unwilling to surrender a part of themselves. They are everywhere... My mom was an ISFJ, and my dad was the equivalent of yourself. I hate that bastard with all my heart, and would send him to hell if I could. I personally would love to watch him burn and scream in agony. This is how much I hate him, and all those kids, and faculty members at school. The anger inside of me is immense. There where numerous occasions where I seriously felt like killing somebody. They are all vermin that exist to allow suffering into our lives. They take from others, because they are too weak to provide for themselves. You should wisen up, there is no need to take from others what you have inside yourself. Do not take from others! ISFJ sure are useless as parents though. I am extremely angry at my mothers incompetence, its almost as if she plays stupid on purpose so that she can ruin my sense of self. Let me guess... Your father was probably an abusive ENTJ just like mine. I have noticed the ENTJ and ISFJ combo that is renown here in America. Jee... I wonder why this is so common? This set up causes numerous kids to lose their identity, because they have a mother that is incompetent, and an abusive father. This combination causes a lot of confusion, and moving around. You get a father that tries to ruin your individual identity, and if you do not comply you are forced to go on pills. You get an incompetent mother that doesn't have a clear notion of what is right from wrong. The incompetence is what causes this ENTJ father to act even more abusive. This is the optimal family setup to cause people to lose their identities. This is unlikely to happen to sensors, but intuitors most likely unless they have extremely strong willpower. I know another like myself who had the exact same family I did. Naturally his brain rotted through socializing online, and he lost his self identity as a result. I just happen to be the lucky one that managed to maintain my self identity after all that abuse. My placements in school were utterly delicious, and the fact that I got moved around so damn much. Nice way to make friends. I lost all chances of a successful childhood, because I had adults like you trying to steal my identity. They are all a bunch of damn zombies, and they have no idea what they are doing most of the time. You wouldn't happen to have a ESTJ sister as well? I am seeing common household trends here in America, and this makes us all question where problems really originate. Repetition is a the human condition. Everything you people to is useless, and meaningless, and you all know that. You all are not aware of what you are even doing half the time. Research? For what purpose? No there isn't any purpose, you people just like to play around. This can be seen as a form of self dissection, or gradual suicide I would say. Do you really need to give up on life so easily? There is so much out there to enjoy. There is so much more to life then mindless repetitive tasks. We should never give up on life. I suppose this is why I hated my father so much... He was everything I never wanted to be. I saw him as nothing other then some kind of evil monstrosity. In return he gave me the worst sort of treatment. The trauma I endure forced me to go into complete shut down, and I was pretty much at everyone's mercy. It was a game of survival for the most part, while I had little choice but to endure whatever was dealt towards me, because I did not have any power. This is American... The majority rots in order to make way for the powerful few. I do not think this is right... They like to drag each other down, and forget who is ultimately benefiting from it. You know what my dad used to say when I got angry over his parenting? That is all the information we had. It sounded as if he had no ability to think for himself, that he was a slave to whatever information was fed to him. He never questioned anything, he derived so many oughts based on stereotypes, and a blindly acted on them without questioning himself even once. Whenever he screwed up, he blamed others. Total incompetence, no responsibility, and severe laziness. You would think that somebody took a lead pipe to his brain, but I notice that people like him are a dime a dozen here in America. The reason why he abused me? He wanted me to submit to him, he wanted to feel better then me. He did not want me to surpass him. He is a zombie that takes from others. Just like everybody else I was surrounded by... So ironic... He used to always take me to places where he worked, he did this so that I would be bored to death. The idea is abuse, neglect, and stressful environments. This was all so that they could break me, and take my soul. I spent most of my life absorbed in some hobby involving computers, or TV. Naturally, this involved the arts. You people can now see why I have spent my entire life in isolation. He disgusts me to no ends... They all disgust me. You might not believe in yourself, but I do. I am proud of who I am, and I don't need other peoples acceptance. You should accept yourself before it is too late. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life fiddling with useless equations?

 

[dark]

@ Zeldon, I didn't even bother reading past half way. I am not even sure what you are talking about. I noticed you started making accusations, which I assume were directed at me, but they all seem like they root from somewhere else.

If these are directed to me, first of all, you don't know anything about me other than what I wish to tell. Secondly no I don't have any of those family members that you have noted, just a IxFJ mother that I think is a sensor. My father is an ESFP. Brother ISTP.

Now that I have walked out of your pattern-ized American family, I wonder how you think I have given up on life?

The simple point in my thread was as follows.

Have you never looked at your life and wondered if what you are currently doing is really what you want? Have you not felt disbelief in who you have been because the knowledge you have gained made you feel disgusted of your former self?

I believe we are on a human journey and constantly changing, ever searching for who we are. Now I ask you Zeldon, is it so wrong to search for ones self? You seem to have hatred for this.

Well as I always do I finished your "speech." I think you seem to misunderstand my entire basis. I am more proud of myself than anyone I know. I don't give a fuck what other people think, I have proved that countless times to people in my social life.

I am sure you sometimes question yourself, it is like a check on what you are doing. I am not arrogant, I am confident in everything I do. I may not be the best but I am better than average I can say that. My person is ever developing. Are you developing? Or have you become stagnate? Stone-faced never taking the options that come, always ordering the same plate, too afraid to take the chances.

Growing up in an entire sensor house hold kept my Ne down for a long time, I isolated my natural extroverted-ness until I finally got to college and now I feel free. I know what you feel when you talk about everyone trying to keep you down. I was always disliked by the majority of the teachers in high school but I didn't care, I forced myself to be better at everything than everyone. And everyone really believed I was the best. I tricked them because I am only an average person and I am not ashamed of that.

I really am unsure at what you are angered at. It is only part of my nature to question everything. Without my questions I can never become a better person I am sure of. Will end my rant here because there are things I must tend to.

 

[Jennywocky]

Well.... two extreme POVs can't help but trigger each other and butt heads. That's pretty clear.

ENTJ/ISFJ combo? Uh... not really. ENTJ males are a pretty small portion of the population, ISFJ females a large one... and I think I never even met an ENTJ face to face in my entire life until last night.

There's lots of baggage in both posts, but also some good stuff. (Such as the need for change and growth in Dark's, and the need to accept and be proud of oneself in Z's.)

 

[Zeldon]

Well.... two extreme POVs can't help but trigger each other and butt heads. That's pretty clear.

ENTJ/ISFJ combo? Uh... not really. ENTJ males are a pretty small portion of the population, ISFJ females a large one... and I think I never even met an ENTJ face to face in my entire life until last night.

There's lots of baggage in both posts, but also some good stuff. (Such as the need for change and growth in Dark's, and the need to accept and be proud of oneself in Z's.)

There are different levels of intuitors, my dad was clearly not a sensor. His brain was just messed up... He kept repeating the same errors over and over, and when things didn't go his way he would blame it one something. I do not know what the percentages actually refer to concerning the MBTI, but I have been around sensor, and they are mostly harmless. It is the intuitors with the mental deficiencies, mainly due to the social pressures, that I have had trouble with. He is just stupid. So stupid that he got me thinking he was some kind of genius. I simply could not admit that such a stupid father could even exist. This caused me to deceive myself constantly. It is a wonder why I have had so many problems... It might have been easier if I just admitted that he was one of the worst fathers on the planet as far as I see it. Such incompetence all around me, and all I could do is endure. He saw me as a commodity, and was dissatisfied that I didn't profit him. Based his assumptions on invalid info. His very existence is a problem...

 

[Zeldon]

@ Zeldon, I didn't even bother reading past half way. I am not even sure what you are talking about. I noticed you started making accusations, which I assume were directed at me, but they all seem like they root from somewhere else.

If these are directed to me, first of all, you don't know anything about me other than what I wish to tell. Secondly no I don't have any of those family members that you have noted, just a IxFJ mother that I think is a sensor. My father is an ESFP. Brother ISTP.

Now that I have walked out of your pattern-ized American family, I wonder how you think I have given up on life?

The simple point in my thread was as follows.

Have you never looked at your life and wondered if what you are currently doing is really what you want? Have you not felt disbelief in who you have been because the knowledge you have gained made you feel disgusted of your former self?

I believe we are on a human journey and constantly changing, ever searching for who we are. Now I ask you Zeldon, is it so wrong to search for ones self? You seem to have hatred for this.

Well as I always do I finished your "speech." I think you seem to misunderstand my entire basis. I am more proud of myself than anyone I know. I don't give a fuck what other people think, I have proved that countless times to people in my social life.

I am sure you sometimes question yourself, it is like a check on what you are doing. I am not arrogant, I am confident in everything I do. I may not be the best but I am better than average I can say that. My person is ever developing. Are you developing? Or have you become stagnate? Stone-faced never taking the options that come, always ordering the same plate, too afraid to take the chances.

Growing up in an entire sensor house hold kept my Ne down for a long time, I isolated my natural extroverted-ness until I finally got to college and now I feel free. I know what you feel when you talk about everyone trying to keep you down. I was always disliked by the majority of the teachers in high school but I didn't care, I forced myself to be better at everything than everyone. And everyone really believed I was the best. I tricked them because I am only an average person and I am not ashamed of that.

I really am unsure at what you are angered at. It is only part of my nature to question everything. Without my questions I can never become a better person I am sure of. Will end my rant here because there are things I must tend to.

You can question all you like, but you wont find any real answers. It is not what is right or wrong, but what is necessary. I suppose the only way for me to justify the past is to understand how it correlates with today, and for what purpose.

 

[Solitaire U.]

'Disbelief of self'...how quaint.

Your expressions are highly typical of what passes for 'introspection' within the false sense of security provided by a shelter of academia and the larger parental shelters funding it. You aimlessly wander amidst others of your ilk upon a concourse of self-trans-fixation and passive-aggressively survey the world beyond with a...sneer of gratification, all the while in total denial of the obvious clues that the reality you are experiencing is not of your own design, but a construct purpose-built to give your isolation an air of transparency.

But you have yet to step into the larger world where both knowledge and self are so transparent as to count for nothing.

Disbelief of self....you expect something else? You want the humiliating career, the house, the hummer, the spouse to share the experience of producing children and...erasing their souls in enforcement of what you will ironically call their best interests, though your only interest in anything you will ever possess is your own liability as the registered owner....

Purveyor of knowledge, or purveyor of truth? Tell me, aspiring philosopher, what is the cost of your shelters?

 

[Reluctantly]

This is why I don't really like having much to do with people and probably won't ever form a family. I just don't care, not because I can't see the value of the two extreme arguments, but because I've been forced, or perhaps coerced, into one extreme and then the other due to life circumstances. I don't care if I have a self or if I always do what people think is necessary. The people that push for one or the other end up pushing their own beliefs onto others and I can't be convinced by it, or care to let them increase my frustration. Life is frustrating. I want to be able to have the dignity to say "Fuck You", no matter how much I might need to be nice to get someone to help me with a need. But I can't...yet. Sometimes I think I would rather die, then smile when I don't want to. I guess ... deep down ... I really hate you all, by the way. I hate how you all influence my decisions, one way or another, in some way - how anyone does. I hate it so much. Sometimes it feels so damn good to not give a shit and just hate. And I hate you Zeldon for being such a stupid prick and self-projecting all your stupid frustrations and inadequacies for not being able to stand up to whatever bothers you by accepting that you are also to blame; you've temporarily reminded me of my own bullshit and I want to say "FUCK YOU".

FUCK YOU

 

[dark]

@ Solitaire U. You would be surprised. I am not sure what you are trying to say or to prove for that matter. Yes I am in college, but no my parents do not pay for it, I have to. I grew in poverty in America. I have never had a luxury. I received no help from the government to get to school, I have no scholar ships, which is why right now I am at the cheapest place I can get in, a 2 year community college. I was not poor because of my parents lack of trying. My dad fell from a scaffolding when I was probably around two years old, broke his back and wasn't able to walk for 2 years. The government made him go to school after testing his potential to do an academic job. So when I started grade school he had barely started going to college and had to hold a job at the same time to take care of his family. I never had anything. I didn't grow up with a television or game systems until the doctors advised my dad to get a television to see if it would help strengthen my eyes since I was essentially a test subject before my dad stopped bringing me to those doctors.

I was never sheltered from anything. You may want to walk around in sorrow, accepting this life because there is nothing your pitiful existence can do, but I am not like that. I refuse to lay down and let the world have its way. True I may never amount to much, but I will try. I am not even sure of what at this moment, but I have seen the world, I have lived in the world, I don't like it. Too many people suffer, too many people are more in poverty than I have been while there sits the rich at the top, which from your hatred for those who want to rise, I will from now assume you fall into the rich. Can't have your blessed life style if everyone is allowed now can you?

I may do all this in vein but I don't care, I don't even care what others think of it, but I will not lay down.

@ Zeldon, I see a good point in your speech that I am not sure you even meant to say.

You know what my dad used to say when I got angry over his parenting? That is all the information we had. It sounded as if he had no ability to think for himself, that he was a slave to whatever information was fed to him. He never questioned anything, he derived so many oughts based on stereotypes, and a blindly acted on them without questioning himself even once. Whenever he screwed up, he blamed others. Total incompetence, no responsibility, and severe laziness.

But your dad did have the information. We all do. We have been raised, we have lived. Do we really forget who we have been? I know many people have said just that, "There wasn't any manuals or anything so how am I supposed to know?" Well the answer is quite simple. Were you not a child once? Were you not raised, did you not see how your parents raised you, did you no notice the things that bothered you, the things you liked, wouldn't it have been better if they just talked to you like a human being to find out who you were? Remember your own thought when you have children. Don't be like everyone else and submit your child to some regime that they don't even understand.

What is the cost of my shelter? I didn't realize I had a shelter. Are you talking about what people call the American dream? Because it seems like you have more disdain towards that than even myself. I ask this, why would I plan ahead anymore than my current situation? All I know is that I want to do something, I want to learn, I want to read all the books I can, I want to loose myself in art. I am on a search, I am ever learning, I will not allow people to keep me down on my pursuit. True I may question where I am going, I may have my disbelief in who I was, or who I currently am, but those are all in introspection to find who I really am. If I never question my own self I am not sure I could achieve much. We are an ever changing creature, why follow such a path that is not our own?

 

[Zeldon]

@ Solitaire U. You would be surprised. I am not sure what you are trying to say or to prove for that matter. Yes I am in college, but no my parents do not pay for it, I have to. I grew in poverty in America. I have never had a luxury. I received no help from the government to get to school, I have no scholar ships, which is why right now I am at the cheapest place I can get in, a 2 year community college. I was not poor because of my parents lack of trying. My dad fell from a scaffolding when I was probably around two years old, broke his back and wasn't able to walk for 2 years. The government made him go to school after testing his potential to do an academic job. So when I started grade school he had barely started going to college and had to hold a job at the same time to take care of his family. I never had anything. I didn't grow up with a television or game systems until the doctors advised my dad to get a television to see if it would help strengthen my eyes since I was essentially a test subject before my dad stopped bringing me to those doctors.

I was never sheltered from anything. You may want to walk around in sorrow, accepting this life because there is nothing your pitiful existence can do, but I am not like that. I refuse to lay down and let the world have its way. True I may never amount to much, but I will try. I am not even sure of what at this moment, but I have seen the world, I have lived in the world, I don't like it. Too many people suffer, too many people are more in poverty than I have been while there sits the rich at the top, which from your hatred for those who want to rise, I will from now assume you fall into the rich. Can't have your blessed life style if everyone is allowed now can you?

I may do all this in vein but I don't care, I don't even care what others think of it, but I will not lay down.

@ Zeldon, I see a good point in your speech that I am not sure you even meant to say.



But your dad did have the information. We all do. We have been raised, we have lived. Do we really forget who we have been? I know many people have said just that, "There wasn't any manuals or anything so how am I supposed to know?" Well the answer is quite simple. Were you not a child once? Were you not raised, did you not see how your parents raised you, did you no notice the things that bothered you, the things you liked, wouldn't it have been better if they just talked to you like a human being to find out who you were? Remember your own thought when you have children. Don't be like everyone else and submit your child to some regime that they don't even understand.

What is the cost of my shelter? I didn't realize I had a shelter. Are you talking about what people call the American dream? Because it seems like you have more disdain towards that than even myself. I ask this, why would I plan ahead anymore than my current situation? All I know is that I want to do something, I want to learn, I want to read all the books I can, I want to loose myself in art. I am on a search, I am ever learning, I will not allow people to keep me down on my pursuit. True I may question where I am going, I may have my disbelief in who I was, or who I currently am, but those are all in introspection to find who I really am. If I never question my own self I am not sure I could achieve much. We are an ever changing creature, why follow such a path that is not our own?

This is typical and vain. I can understand your desire to move up in the world, but you are basing it on a single impulse. The television is part of it as well. Once you operate in this mode, you are unable to contain your immediate desires based on what you have been taught. You will not be able to examine your experiences in order to find the best possible solution to any given circumstances. Your method of reasoning is only based on particular experiences of likes and dislikes. If you make a mistake, either somebody corrects you, or you do not learn. If your parenting style is happens to be abusive, you will be unaware of such abuse. If we do not have shelter in this society, how can we properly organize things to work effectively. The simple answer is that we can't. Naturally if you do not work extremely hard, you will not realize your full potential, but without leadership you will not know how best to pursue tasks. This is why my dad formed partnerships all the time. The problem is that he was too incompetent for his own good, and botched everything he did. He was unable to determine what would be most effective, because he grew up in a family of ten kids, and one messed up parent. It figures why he behaved the way he did. Without order in his environment, he became a slave to his impulses. He came up with random conclusions based on the information he was provided, because nobody was providing him with adequate information. Yes... He was a hopeless slave to his environment, and all he could do is go on his base instincts, which he confused for reason. People are not in their right place in America... There isn't any proper order in this country, and people are getting lost and confused. We need an organized structure, but it seems that nobody is able to provide us with any. This is the main reason why I hate this country... People cannot help but to play dice in this country, and are unable to determine right and wrong as a result... Questioning does not provide answers... Some people cannot help but to question, but somebody needs to provide them with answers for those questions...

 

[Zeldon]

This is why I don't really like having much to do with people and probably won't ever form a family. I just don't care, not because I can't see the value of the two extreme arguments, but because I've been forced, or perhaps coerced, into one extreme and then the other due to life circumstances. I don't care if I have a self or if I always do what people think is necessary. The people that push for one or the other end up pushing their own beliefs onto others and I can't be convinced by it, or care to let them increase my frustration. Life is frustrating. I want to be able to have the dignity to say "Fuck You", no matter how much I might need to be nice to get someone to help me with a need. But I can't...yet. Sometimes I think I would rather die, then smile when I don't want to. I guess ... deep down ... I really hate you all, by the way. I hate how you all influence my decisions, one way or another, in some way - how anyone does. I hate it so much. Sometimes it feels so damn good to not give a shit and just hate. And I hate you Zeldon for being such a stupid prick and self-projecting all your stupid frustrations and inadequacies for not being able to stand up to whatever bothers you by accepting that you are also to blame; you've temporarily reminded me of my own bullshit and I want to say "FUCK YOU".

FUCK YOU

Knowing your enemy before knowing yourself is a good way to fuck up the mind. I didn't want to have my brain ruined just because I grew up in a bad environment.

 

[Solitaire U.]

American Dream? Heh...so you've met my landlord, have you? These dreamers of prosperity upon my rented life, so powerful, so enlightened, so...free...free to hit their snooze buttons instead of fixing 'my' leaking toilet to quell their own terror of insolvency. Apparently, I am their terror. 'Now I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds', so whom the more powerful?

Do not assume I walk the earth in sorrow. It is you who professes "I have lived in the world, I don't like it." The disbelief of self is yours.

But you did not answer my question. To proclaim you have never been sheltered is an obvious lie. To lack a realization of it's existence is to deny your inevitable provider's destiny. It is not my aim to insult you with this, for I share your desire to read all the books you can, etc. etc. But these are not birth-rights.

I know the cost of my shelter, and what I must do to pay for it.

Now, what be the cost of yours?

 

[dark]

To tell the truth, I have no clue what you mean by shelter, so no I did not lie, I cannot know even how to answer such a question.

I took American Dream from your descriptions, "You want the humiliating career, the house, the hummer, the spouse to share the experience of producing children..."

You also made a serious flaw. From just the first sentence in your post you show self-centered-ness. So you seem to think you existence matters eh? In a small amount, maybe, but on average no. Oddly enough it seems you are preaching something, occult like. Take no offense, I am merely stating the words you say back in how they also reflect you. Unless you really are that clever...

Please tell me, what is it you mean by shelter?

 

[Zeldon]

To tell the truth, I have no clue what you mean by shelter, so no I did not lie, I cannot know even how to answer such a question.

I took American Dream from your descriptions, "You want the humiliating career, the house, the hummer, the spouse to share the experience of producing children..."

You also made a serious flaw. From just the first sentence in your post you show self-centered-ness. So you seem to think you existence matters eh? In a small amount, maybe, but on average no. Oddly enough it seems you are preaching something, occult like. Take no offense, I am merely stating the words you say back in how they also reflect you. Unless you really are that clever...

Please tell me, what is it you mean by shelter?

Figures... My dad couldn't see anything beyond his small happiness. I was a fool to expect anything from him, but what kind of feedback did I get from my environment? To make matters worse I thought way too much, and was unable to process information adequately. I had no assistance in providing myself with decent experiences, so I took stupid risks that never ended in my favor. I subjected myself to pain so that I can learn in the absence of any teacher. My dad was a mindless drone that could only think about his small happiness, while being unable to understand my grander desires. My mom was a drone that did everything based on her idea of proper... The only thing she was interested in was maintaining the household and that's it. While my dad acted on half assed ideas, and had a habit of stealing from others in the process. How is such a worthless family even possible? How can such activities be allowed? I notice that stability has been a problem everywhere in America, it always has been the case, and traditionally America has never improved in its ability to manage the people. The larger is supposed to rule over the smaller, and yet it is the people of smaller minds that lead over those of larger minds, or so it would appear. I have always noticed the incompetence of those in power, and I have been greatly angered by this. I think it is about time people start to get properly defined by their position.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Oy vey, I'm self-centered! Tell you what...I'll hold your place in line for you while you go count the 'I's in your posts.

I really think the whole 'existence is meaningless in the larger sphere' thing is just a bit passé to be using as an excuse. I have a thousand tangible reasons for my existence to matter to me, and so do you, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. So let's dispense with another pointless verbatim debate on the topic, shall we? That is, unless you can point me to this larger sphere of tangibility that would liberate me from having to give a shit...

Instead of playing charades over the meaning of 'shelter', I'll just assume it's a stigmatized word for you and re-phrase the question...

Who keeps the lights on so you can read, food in your stomach so you can get lost in art without starving like an artist, the roof over your head availing you the luxury to ponder where you are going without the distraction of worrying about how to survive where you already are? Parents, government, student loan, wealthy relative, wealthy dead relative's estate, some other benefactor?

I've no desire to humiliate you. FWIW I walked away from it all in 10th grade. My reasons for doing so might just make me the most pure-blooded INTP up in this fucker. So what? Does the quality of my...'prose', jive with the stereotype you've been taught to expect? An upward glance seems to confirm that you just accused me of being rich, but what the hell, I forgive you.

My questions aren't for me, they are for you. Answer them and resolve your self-disbelief, or evade them and solve the mystery of why you can't believe yourself.

 

[dark]

Interesting, so by shelter you meant the simplest of forms. I get where you are coming from now, and yes we are feeding that system that Zeldon here keeps showing hatred for. That is the cost of our shelters. We fight a redundant struggle do we not?

With all respects, I wrote the post with all the assumptions in regards to you, which reflected just what you did and continue to do. Also a lot less "I's" in my posts. Well with regards to the meaning of self.

I am not an INTP. How could I have been taught to expect any stereotype when all I can do is freelance this information? This will be my "I's" paragraph. And now I realize, you ARE the opposing view point. Why do you feel/think that we should not have our momentary disbelief of self? If our ego is never checked then our being gains a higher chance to be overrun with arrogance. If we are never checked then we become stagnate. Why must thou never question yourself? Your question was answered from the information given, so now what is your answer?

Also to the point I made about self-centered-ness. "American Dream? Heh...so you've met my landlord, have you?" A dialogue created to show how the self feels self-important, even for those who could have never possibly known you, they somehow existed for you. If these assumptions were wrong please correct it.

By no means take no offense, it seems we are discussing something of meaning and will eventually debate something out of it.

 

[Zeldon]

Interesting, so by shelter you meant the simplest of forms. I get where you are coming from now, and yes we are feeding that system that Zeldon here keeps showing hatred for. That is the cost of our shelters. We fight a redundant struggle do we not?

With all respects, I wrote the post with all the assumptions in regards to you, which reflected just what you did and continue to do. Also a lot less "I's" in my posts. Well with regards to the meaning of self.

I am not an INTP. How could I have been taught to expect any stereotype when all I can do is freelance this information? This will be my "I's" paragraph. And now I realize, you ARE the opposing view point. Why do you feel/think that we should not have our momentary disbelief of self? If our ego is never checked then our being gains a higher chance to be overrun with arrogance. If we are never checked then we become stagnate. Why must thou never question yourself? Your question was answered from the information given, so now what is your answer?

Also to the point I made about self-centered-ness. "American Dream? Heh...so you've met my landlord, have you?" A dialogue created to show how the self feels self-important, even for those who could have never possibly known you, they somehow existed for you. If these assumptions were wrong please correct it.

By no means take no offense, it seems we are discussing something of meaning and will eventually debate something out of it.

The answer to that would be a combination of humility, and the ability to act unobstructed. Of course this would require everything to be right at the start... The only other way would be to attach my identity to an object. This would only be possible if I manage to do away with excess trauma in a collective of some sort... In the worst situation only through the ego can I achieve full inner development. It is true that the ego must face scrutiny for this to work, and it is the most fearful of all approaches... It is also the most pleasurable, but our society doesn't provide a decent venue for it... I suppose I could discard myself, but that requires me to take whatever comes my path...

 

[Zensunni]

From what you are saying, you are fighting what you have learned from others vs. yourself. Your learned behavior is competing with your true nature. So, properly, you are not fighting yourself.

With regard to being a trickster, I think that has more to do with realizing that there is no exterior constraint upon you. Religious people are cowed into proper behavior because their gods see all they do. Either you are religious and too young to care or you are irreligious and see that there are no constraints on your behavior.

Maturity is when you realize that there are no constraints on anyone and yet most all act politely and courteously because that is what makes their society function. The sooner you realize that you need to learn to control yourself, the better your life will be. Screwing with people, just like any other behavior, is learned and can become habituated until you do it unwillingly and then you have a really bad habit to break and it will probably cost you later in life; jobs, relationships, etc.

Good luck. Hope this helps.