Bad experiences with non NT types?

[cheese]

I just had a horrible and draining conversation with an ENFJ friend. We used to be very close, though the closeness was more on his side than mine; I was simply phyically present a lot of the time. Anyway as usual he got on his high E horse and started throwing around derogotary terms like "loser" about an INFJ friend, because he "didn't have a social life" (not true anyway!). I explained, calmly and objectively, why this was not an appropriate stance to take (starting with the basic first point that different people have different desires and definitions of "social life"). This went on for a while, until he eventually denounced me, apparently in the interest of me avoiding offending future acquaintances, for being aggressive, trying to be a "super intellect" and "acting high and mighty with all my facts".

!

I think it's a very sad state the world is in when it considers facts to be irrelevant in discussion. I'm sorry, should I lie to avoid stepping on someone's toes? Isn't the greater evil his attitude towards "losers", not my desire to point this out with substantial backing?

I find talking to non NT types often ends like this - they think I'm trying to show off (perhaps I am?), and that I am getting emotional and aggressive (my ENFJ called me "melodramatic"). I usually don't bother saying anything of real substance to them as I know they cannot understand my perspective. The little bit I have shown my ENFJ is obviously far too much.

Apologies for this being long; I just thought I'd explain why I've started this thread.



So: Please share your negative experiences with non NT types, especially relating to conversations where the emotional tone is perceived completely differently by each party.



Disclaimer: I know very many lovely non NT people and they are not any more defective than us. They are simply more likely to pose unique and frustrating challenges to us, and I thought it would be good to express this in a safe place.

 

[FF]

About your situation: I don't see any part of the conversation being your fault at all. We don't make fun of people who are so overly obsessed with their friends or significant others, and if some situation occurs that the relationship ends, that said person breaks down. We don't make fun of those kinds of people, do we?

Anyway, I've had some bad experiences with non-NT types, myself. Not all of them are bad, but...ohh boy...when you have to live with them...

My mom is an ISTJ, and she is always criticizing me for not being the "correct" kind of person. She gets extremely annoyed when I try to explain to her that her viewpoint is not the ultimate truth. She's always looking at other people, and asking me why I don't dress like them, or why I don't smile enough...things like that. And when she's "commanding" me to do something, I ask her why I have to do this, if I internally disagree. But she's a big fan of "Because I said so." Gets on my nerves all the time. Yet there's nothing I can do about it. She's my mother, and she's letting me live in her apartment...so...

 

[inquiringF]

My difficulty with sensors is that they dismiss theories for being unrealistic or having no practical application. They cannot accept that one speculates for amusement and theories normally have probability.

 

[cheese]

FF:
I think some INTPs DO make fun of those people actually - but I get your point.

Your mother sounds scary! About the "because I said so" business...hmm. I think it's important for children to learn who's boss when they're little, because 1) the valid reasoning behind their parents' decisions may not be understandable at that age, and 2) it teaches respect.
1) is dangerous because if a child argues with a parent while standing in the path of an oncoming car, it'll die.
2) is important to qualify as a human being, I think. I also believe it's necessary to first learn to serve/follow orders before one can lead or take one's place as an equal. This is just a theory of mine, though it does seem to be supported by some families I know of (where the children are brats).

However some parents forget that kids grow up, and don't realise the authoritarian stance is no longer an adequate response to questioning. At the same time parents often do know things their children are unaware of, having had more experience. A suitable middle ground might be explaining their reasoning and standing by their position, but allowing the child/teenager to follow their own path. Success would lead to learning on both sides, and failure to understanding from within on the child's part. Of course there're dangers here as well...

Sorry this is a much bigger topic than can be covered here and I shouldn't have gotten side-tracked anyway but I appreciate your response and sympathise with your situation. Move out ASAP!

*edit
I liked what you said about your mother's viewpoint not being "the ultimate truth". This is PRECISELY the problem I had with that ENFJ, and have had with many others. They are terribly narrow-minded.


inquiringF:
I have the same problem. It's worse when they get annoyed. I've decided I should just accept that communications with some will be limited. Unless they are interested in trying to understand me I will not force myself upon them.

 

[Ermine]

Something that really gets to me that a lot of S types do is make unfounded assumptions about me. For example,

She's an artist = she's a stuck up snob
she's smart = she's a geek and has no life (it's because of a lot of these people that I don't have a "social life")
she doesn't talk much =she thinks she's better than us
she makes connections = she assumes too much (look who's talking)

the list keeps going on and on. And also, the words "because it just is" or "because I said so".

 

[cheese]

Yes. Again, they are often terribly narrow-minded. They do not see all the possible motives and factors behind a person's behaviour. I find I'm often the only one standing up for the underdog simply because I see more possibilities. The others immediately equate X with Y, often erroneously.

"because it just is" or "because I said so".
Aaaargh! And they actually think they can quash our arguments with this! And then when we point out, calmly and logically, that this is not in fact possible, they CALL US EMOTIONAL AND MELODRAMATIC! *hyperventilates*

 

[echoplex]

Probably the most notable problem with non-NTs is their lack of logical consistency. I'm sure there are times when it's just lack of memory instead, but it's still very annoying.

They can also be harshly judgmental to people they've never met or don't understand well enough, along with that precious accompanying smugness that only someone miles away from whom they're criticizing could have. (This might describe EJs better though.)

Oh, and what FF said about being "correct." As we all know, "because I said so" is the refuge of someone who lacks an actual argument.

(note: parents may, in some situations, not require an argument. I realized this when I was younger.)

 

[FF]

(note: parents may, in some situations, not require an argument. I realized this when I was younger.)

Yeah, I just realized my mom is actually an INTJ. I did a lot of thinking...she does come up with some pretty abstract ideas occasionally.

I just think that since she got older, the S developed more and more...to the point that it annoys the crap out of me.

Now let me talk about my ESTP sister. She's a doer, whereas I'm a thinker. She's the kind to constantly go out and meet people, and she calls me a loner because I'm an introvert. She's got a highly developed J, but I know she's a P because she's into cheerleading, dance, singing, and sports...performing, really. That's what the ESTP is all about.

The annoying thing is that she uses her judgment on me all the time. "Why are you wearing that?" "Why aren't you doing this?" "OMG Ariana, you're such a loser!" It is really hurtful. She thinks she's perfect. But I think she's a conceited stuck up brat who spends too much money and is WAY too high maintenance and attached to people. Honestly.

 

[Mud~Eye]

However some parents forget that kids grow up, and don't realise the authoritarian stance is no longer an adequate response to questioning. At the same time parents often do know things their children are unaware of, having had more experience. A suitable middle ground might be explaining their reasoning and standing by their position, but allowing the child/teenager to follow their own path. Success would lead to learning on both sides, and failure to understanding from within on the child's part. Of course there're dangers here as well... Cheese

@ Cheese: I don't know if you are a parent, but you could be, in my opinion. I am going to kind of toot my own horn here, but parenting is one of the best things I've ever done as an INTP person, I think. Realising that kids need to make choices, that actions create consequence, and that learning is possible without constant parental supervision and protectionism is one of many wonderful gifts INTPs have for parenting. Sure, there's dangers, but they don't outweigh the dangers of suffocating a kid with lack of space and leaving them in the dark all the time (I never realised how much that is like locking them in a closet until just now).

More to point:
I hated that growing up, and I hated that neither of my parents seemed to have any faith in me at all, based on their value system and many faulty assumptions they made about reasons for my behaviors, like losing my house key, and forgetting I'd ridden my bike to school that day and walking home, instead. (I'm still trying to recover from that). They equated my lack of attention to detail to literal absent mindedness. So, thinking for myself was not in question for two reasons: 1) I was expected to be one of their "do as I say, not as I do" children, while in their home 2) that I was without a brain, despite the physical evidence of good grades. Lest anyone think I totally hate my parents, I appreciate much of what they have done for me as parents. Further, being one myself helps to understand a person's limitations and appreciate even more their attempts to do their best. Finally, they grow up eventually, too. They are both so much more likable now (that I don't have to live with either of them). To all who may experience this now, "this too shall pass, so hang in there" (little kitty poster, to you).

Schemas, though...the ultimate loathesome attribute of many people, even my own, if they exist. And, likely they do, as fear and ignorance seem to be contributing factors, and I am not without both. Perhaps, then, what I loathe is the unquestioned adherance to the schema. I don't know enough about the mb types to make any estimations of the frequency of schema dependent persons of any particular type, but my husband is an ESFJ, and he is schema dependent enough to tempt even me into blindly catagorizing them all into a schema of my own. Thankfully, I can't get away with that consciously. But, let it be known now, that I will be using this thread alot. And, if I ever speak vaguely about my husband, it is because I'm trying to balance honesty with respect, so please forgive my intentional lack of detail, at times. What I hate the most is when his stupid F compels him to voice his ignorance in front of our somewhat impressionable children. I could strangle him! Instead, I ask myself how the hell I ever ended up married to this guy, and then remember all the drinks and sex we had together the first two years we dated. Let that be a caution for all you unmarried INTPs. That's how I'll love you today.

 

[cheese]

^Thanks Mud~Eye, that was very interesting.

Realising that kids need to make choices, that actions create consequence, and that learning is possible without constant parental supervision and protectionism is one of many wonderful gifts INTPs have for parenting.

Yes. It would be so good if all the different types could adopt the others' strengths. Even low F INTPs make worthy contributions!

I hated that growing up, and I hated that neither of my parents seemed to have any faith in me at all, based on their value system and many faulty assumptions

Yes, unfortunately a lot of INTPs seemed to have suffered from a lack of parental understanding and appropriate guidance. I was extremely lucky, being brought up by an exceptionally reasonable ENTJ father who frequently showed great affection and love and taught the power of logic, and an extremely kind and loving ENFP mother, who taught powerful F values. The key to their skillful parenting was their transparency in their dealings with us. Of course as humans they had failings, but as far as possible they explained the rationale behind their decisions, which helped us; even as we broke the rules, we understood the consequences and the reasons why they were not favourable to us or others. By providing a clear look at our options and outcomes they empowered us and taught responsibility for our own actions - whatever these were.

ie I'm a screwup, but at least I know it's all my fault. ()

I am susceptible to mindless schema-adherence myself, and have to work at avoiding it. Awareness of possible bondage is a valuable step in this however, so we're all partly there, though it remains a daily struggle.

(If anyone feels uncomfortable with sympathy, ignore this next bit!)
And, if I ever speak vaguely about my husband, it is because I'm trying to balance honesty with respect, so please forgive my intentional lack of detail, at times. What I hate the most is when his stupid F compels him to voice his ignorance in front of our somewhat impressionable children.

I am sorry this is happening, and applaud your desire to remain respectful - it demonstrates a rising above self (which posssibly correlates with a transcendence of emotion). I know types such as these. Their behaviour is intensely regrettable. One of the most important things for successful leadership is that it present a united front. So few parents seem aware of this, and it is a pity to think of all the children who will grow up unnecessarily damaged and/or underdeveloped, simply because of conflicting signals from authority. Hopefully you can educate your husband.

Feel free to use this thread, though you might consider opening a new one if you wish to talk specifically about marital problems with non NT types.

 

[Mud~Eye]

^Thanks Mud~Eye, that was very interesting.

LOL. Funny, and not a little deplorable, to go back and read a publicly posted vent! I sure did feel better though! I've been doing alot of reading on the MBTI and, according to many sources (not just MBTI), expressing some emotions in a safe place is a great way to get out of self and balance some things out. You and I talked about this, too, Cheese. Finding a safe place without going too far with expression one way or another is, for some reason, a difficult thing for me to gauge, in the moment. Surprisingly so. My own emotional immaturity is sometimes so obvious. But, one does not grow without taking some risks. A little burn now and again will only add to the lesson. I'm less afraid than I was. I'm thinking that making the most out of the opportunities I am getting right now could really go along way. And, since I have a long way to go, why not? Thanks for your comments.

Cheese:

Feel free to use this thread, though you might consider opening a new one if you wish to talk specifically about marital problems with non NT types.

This is a good idea. I'll think about that.

It sound like you had some wonderfully cohesive parenting. Oh, make no mistake, I am totally responsible for the choices I've made after a certain point. There's no blame to assign once one chooses to keep doing what does not work. But, I've come to agree with some others that we all have our moments of insanity. We've all got to take examples from different places and experiences throughout our time to keep learning new ways. That is another natural advantage that I think an INTP and perhaps other intuitives have while finding their own way of parenting without a manual. I suspect my mother is an ISFJ and, once I stopped being so angry with her, I actually started realising how many wonderful things she had taught me. But this is a thread for bad experiences with Non-INTP types, so let's get on with that.

 

[cheese]

^You sound like you are in a good place now - great!

FF:
Hmm. I don't think you're a loser. Especially (excuse superficial reasoning) judging by your picture. Anyway, remember it was the ESXJs and their ilk that came up with that term so it's a subjective standard to judge by and hence irrelevant to us.

 

[Ermine]

^ Along those lines, everyone is a winner and everyone is a loser somehow.

 

[Mud~Eye]

The annoying thing is that she uses her judgment on me all the time. "Why are you wearing that?" "Why aren't you doing this?" "OMG Ariana, you're such a loser!" It is really hurtful.

FF

I can relate. My sister (ESXJ) and I are adults now, and she would still make comments about the mess in my house, my fashion nonsense, my lack of hair styling, etc... She makes the biggest deal when I do have my house clean or my hair done (the clothes are never worth a reaction from her). It's funny to watch her "react" to these things, like she's giving me a big huge gold star or something. It use to embarass and hurt me when I was younger, just starting out and establishing a home for my family. But, it doesn't hurt anymore, because she doesn't come over! hahaha. Really, I moved about an hour or so away, so... that's really helped. Our conversations are more about catching up now, and when that part is over, I can just "gotta go, love ya, bye." Perhaps, in this case, distance has made the heart grow fonder.

 

[cheese]

Ermine:
Yes, that is the point I was driving at.

Mud~Eye:
Hmm. I definitely relate to that. Some people are simply not meant to be daily companions. Seeing them occasionally is the best structure for the relationship.
In some ways I think love is best served like that, but that's another topic!

 

[Mud~Eye]

Some people are simply not meant to be daily companions. Seeing them occasionally is the best structure for the relationship.
In some ways I think love is best served like that, but that's another topic!

Not entirely off topic...perhaps a vacation from the ESFJ SO(B) is in order then! Inspirational, really. I might just plan a trip.

Edit: that was just mean, huh? No less true, though; about the trip I mean.

 

[cheese]

^Heh heh.

about the trip I mean.

Liar.

 

[Sugarpop]

FF

I can relate. My sister (ESXJ) and I are adults now, and she would still make comments about the mess in my house, my fashion nonsense, my lack of hair styling, etc... She makes the biggest deal when I do have my house clean or my hair done (the clothes are never worth a reaction from her). It's funny to watch her "react" to these things, like she's giving me a big huge gold star or something. It use to embarass and hurt me when I was younger, just starting out and establishing a home for my family. But, it doesn't hurt anymore, because she doesn't come over! hahaha. Really, I moved about an hour or so away, so... that's really helped. Our conversations are more about catching up now, and when that part is over, I can just "gotta go, love ya, bye." Perhaps, in this case, distance has made the heart grow fonder.

The trick is to be so extremely weird they realize they'll never straighten you out. Never yield.

I hypothesize that INTPs have greater difficulty coexisting with other types than most other types. The E is draining, the F is incomprehensible and intimidating, the S is boring, the J is restricting, the SJ is murder. (ESFJs are actually not as bad as you might think. They can be quite caring and supportive, even though they don't really understand you.)

I'm still fascinated by how poorly I got on with a couple of people I've encountered. I wouldn't dare attempt vicarious typing of anyone, but the emotional, chatty, illogical, yet strangely inconsiderate type always had it in for me.

Other people have recognized my dislike of certain individuals, even though their types were different from mine (such as ESFJs). Maybe I don't have a problem with certain types as much as certain types poorly developed.

 

[chocolate]

Cheese: I do have trouble with non-NTs when it comes to problem-solving, or yikes! sorting out our differences. Yet it's so easy (practically trivial!) with other NTs! It's also a bit sad when your way of thinking isn't valued at all. I find I am often the one who is bending over backwards to understand and validate everyone else's opinion, but most others can't/won't do it for me. During discussions with NTJs oftentimes I get a bit frustrated at their resistance to spontaneously explore; it works better when I listen to them to learn but do not try to cooperatively mould any thoughts with them.

About ISTJ parents: my dad is an ISTJ, and 99% of what I do is wrong to him! We don't live together (and haven't for most of my life), so for most of the year our relationship is an occasional phone conversation, and that works pretty well. He's really fun to talk to and gives good advice but yeah, that thing about everything I do being wrong is very difficult to withstand for any significant length of time. And when I say everything I do, I mean everything -- down to where I sit, how long it takes me to find a book, whatever...

According to this website: http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=overview
Rationals make up only 5-10% of the population...? I must be very lucky because in my field, I'd say we're at least half! (for the grads; for the profs, my estimate is it's almost exclusively so...)

 

[Deleted member 1424]

My mother is an ESFJ, with a hint of bi-polar. Naturally we can't stand eachother. It's very difficult interacting with her. She puts an emotional spin on everything I say and do. I tried to adopt a neutral stance with her; but she makes it impossible. She goes through these cycles of love and hate in regards to me. One moment she is trying to smother me in maternal love, doting, and misguided lecturing. Then, in the span of minutes, she becomes insanely angry because she thinks I don't return her 'affection,' that I'm overly critical, and that I'm sinful.

I've never really known how to approach her other than to be neutrally defensive; but I suspect that neutrality only aggravates her the intensity of her moods. Any appeal to reason is met with hostility and insults. When she tries to be 'nice,' its like she is trying to earn my forgiveness for her last 'episode' and when is doesn't work she gets angry again. Anything she knows about me she shares with pretty much everyone she knows and she says she wants me to trust her.

She is very intelligent, but is completely ruled by feeling. She has this manipulative nature that pervades everything she says and does. When I was younger my brother left on bad terms with my parents. My mother told my brother that I became suicidal when he left. It was completely unfounded and I can only assume she did it out of spite towards him. I feel bad for thinking this way; but I can't wait to cut ties.

 

[Jennywocky]

I just had a small skirmish with a member on another forum, all I can tell is that she's xFxJ and very opinionated. This might sound like a bitch session, but it's not: The type difference definitely is what was screwing things up, so bear with me...

She PM'ed me over the weekend to tell me that she wasn't ABOUT to help me again with a question i had asked because apparently the last time she had tried to help me, the conversation had ended poorly.

First of all, I wasn't sure why she had PM'ed me to tell me she couldn't help me (to me, that's sort of illogical), so I also told her I didn't remember the last conversation and was sorry if things had gone poorly, I really wouldn't have wanted it to end like that.

Later that day I slowly began to recall this fight last fall where I had asked a question and she [I assumed it was her, I didn't even remember!] had read it entirely differently than I had asked it and started PM'ing me and arguing from some emotional/political view rather than the detached clinical answer I had desired (and that everyone else had picked up on)... and finally I had gotten exasperated and told her to please not talk to me anymore.

Today I got her e-mail, where her opening line was "I guess this is the best apology I'm ever going to get from you, so fine, I guess we will be friends again." Then she launched into a few paragraphs of finally answering my question in the manner in which I had expected.

My response was to respond to the latter part of her comments in an impersonal way, just discussing information... but then tell her that I was shocked she had held a grudge against me so long, that I had completely forgotten about any fight we might have had if she hadn't brought it back up, and (since I was sort of offended that she felt entitled to an apology where I had felt like the victim in the first place), told her that she shouldn't write back to me anymore because we just a lot of trouble communicating and since it was a support forum, there were lots of people who we could both communicate with even if we couldn't deal with each other.

She wrote back and apologized. (Not what I expected.) And clarified what she had meant, which was more honest than what I read from context of her comments, and admitted she was opinionated and that next time I should tell her to shut up and then we'd be fine.

Another exchange or two later and she was telling me some glowing anecdote about her life today as if we were the closest of friends.

And she was being pretty authentic, I intuit. But if I acted that way, I'd think I was nutty.

One problem: I know I get read as "not caring" when I give a detached or unemotional POV. Also, I can sound snarky/snippy in a particular situation but it's not a long-seated grudge, it's just related to the conversation at hand; my overall desire is still to communicate and keep the relationship intact. FJ types seem to take poorly to these things, they read it as "not caring" and T-style evaluation seems "mean" to them. And I was reading her comments for intellectual and emotional coherency and just not getting any off her, so it was frustrating for me to know even how to respond to her.

I found this in my real-life relationships with FJs too. ISFJs really like to keep things calm, stable, personal, and planned out and need consistent affirmation to feel happy about the relationship, which to a TP type is just sort of like, "Huh?"

My current roommate is an ISFP, and she was just reading my behavior and comments are negative/critical because they didn't conform with her values, until we had a fight and I started crying (doesn't happen much in that context), and she realized I did care about her after all... just because of the display of emotion. (To me, the content would be important than the crying but F's seem to respond a lot more to those emotional cues as a sign of authenticity.)

My mom's an ISFJ and we just do not seem to be able to communicate at all. I'm utterly stymied. I must seem like a monster to her.

I don't know how anyone gets along, honestly, if they're not similar to each other. It's like we are speaking different languages sometimes.

 

[Tyria]

I would say he isn't your friend in the first place if he cuts you loose to avoid messing up his future relationships. Friends don't do that kind of thing.

 

[snowqueen]

@ Cheese: I don't know if you are a parent, but you could be, in my opinion. I am going to kind of toot my own horn here, but parenting is one of the best things I've ever done as an INTP person, I think. Realising that kids need to make choices, that actions create consequence, and that learning is possible without constant parental supervision and protectionism is one of many wonderful gifts INTPs have for parenting. Sure, there's dangers, but they don't outweigh the dangers of suffocating a kid with lack of space and leaving them in the dark all the time (I never realised how much that is like locking them in a closet until just now).

I agree with that. That's very much my parenting style and it's been very successful so far. It's interesting - my NJ friend has virtually worked out her children's whole life for them. She has a 16 year old like mine - very very clever - and she told me the other day that she had her tested for aptitudes and it came out that she should be doing sciences so that's what she's going to do now. I've known this girl since she was 2 and she's always been incredibly interested in literature, history and music and consistently told me she hates maths and sciences! Now, I know that if you do these tests - which are largely IQ tests - if you are bright and analytical it will inevitably tell you to do sciences but critical analysis is just as useful in English and History even if it is done differently. I asked my friend what her daughter would do with the sciences 'Oh probably medicine' she said. Hmm.

In contrast my daughter is lucky enough (well I made sure!) to be going to a school where they do the IB so she doesn't have to shut down her options. She has no idea what she wants to do and I've told her that's fine, she's only 16 and that because she's super=bright all she needs to do is to avoid getting pregnant, not to take up heavy drinking or drug use or think some boy is more important than her studies and get the best qualification she can so she can go to one of the top universities to study anything she wants because at the end of that, whatever degree she's got, she'll get on to some graduate programme. As it is she's IXTX (mostly INTJ at the moment, but could go either way!) so I suspect she'll suddenly find something that fascinates her and go for it.

I was extremely lucky, being brought up by an exceptionally reasonable ENTJ father who frequently showed great affection and love and taught the power of logic, and an extremely kind and loving ENFP mother, who taught powerful F values.

Can I confess to being incredibly jealous?

Because this is exactly what my mother is like:

My mother is an ESFJ, with a hint of bi-polar. Naturally we can't stand eachother. It's very difficult interacting with her. She puts an emotional spin on everything I say and do. I tried to adopt a neutral stance with her; but she makes it impossible. She goes through these cycles of love and hate in regards to me. One moment she is trying to smother me in maternal love, doting, and misguided lecturing. Then, in the span of minutes, she becomes insanely angry because she thinks I don't return her 'affection,' that I'm overly critical, and that I'm sinful.

I've never really known how to approach her other than to be neutrally defensive; but I suspect that neutrality only aggravates her the intensity of her moods. Any appeal to reason is met with hostility and insults. When she tries to be 'nice,' its like she is trying to earn my forgiveness for her last 'episode' and when is doesn't work she gets angry again. Anything she knows about me she shares with pretty much everyone she knows and she says she wants me to trust her.

She is very intelligent, but is completely ruled by feeling. She has this manipulative nature that pervades everything she says and does.

which is, I think, why XIII drove me particularly mad.

 

[Concojones]

my dad is an ISTJ, and 99% of what I do is wrong to him! [...] is very difficult to withstand for any significant length of time. And when I say everything I do, I mean everything -- down to where I sit, how long it takes me to find a book, whatever...

OMG OMG
My father is exactly the same. I really mean exactly.
ISTJ. Commenting on everything we do. And when I was younger: 'no, not good, let me do that for you'. Very often his motives are good (giving tips on how to do better) but it sounds so lecturing!
That said, I used to do quite some 'giving advice' myself. But after having to deal with other people who take it to the limit, I've become more able to restrain myself.

F types: I am familiar with their emotional reactions (my mother is F). I think I handle them well though, but I admit they often come as a surprise to me. Just the other on this board we had a great example of an F reaction in the dating thread.