XNTP

[Perseus]

XNTP which is as near as me as I can get is the Phoenix. My thinking really needs to be developed further to shine ?

I can still get massascred by young Panthers (ESTP).

 

[Agent Intellect]

wut?

 

[Decaf]

There is no X. Each letter is a dichotomy, like "Yes" or "No". There is no "Maybe", just uncertainty.

 

[Dissident]

Lets put this thread to some use then and discuss that (if you want, of course). I still have some problems with it, not that I say its wrong, but that I dont fully understand it.

Does that mean that everyone is a 100% pure specimen of their type? If a person has a lower function so developed that can use it with the same ease (or very close to) their main one, when you campare it to someone who only uses their main, there is a difference. Cant an introvert get to the point of being energized by social interaction? or an INTP realize the importance of structure and start using Te on a regular basis? Im not talking about changing type but reaching a point in which you can use one function or the other depending on the situation without a strong prefference.

 

[Perseus]

X is because with increasing confidence my Extroversion is returning and how it is about 6 out of 12 on the Paragon scale, neither Introvert or Extrovert. I do not have to fight shyness and lack of self assuredness* quite so much, so I have a bit left over for extrovert activities. This is existentially desirable anyway, to look outwards from within.
At the same time I find my high score for Intuition of 11 is now down to 10. Perception remains at 11. This translates to others as slow processing time, so different that holding telephone conversations is difficult about important things on the cuff, unless I am already primed with the information.

*This is autonomy which increases with more dosh.

 

[Decaf]

OK, so I spoke hastily. I just get annoyed by the haziness most people use the X in the four letter code to represent. Each person is a four letter type, but there is some overlap that happens when you break each type down into its requisite 5 parts.

Extraverting
Initiating
Expressive
Gregarious
Active
Enthusiastic

Introverting
Receiving
Contained
Intimate
Reflective
Quiet

Sensing
Concrete
Realistic
Practical
Experiential
Traditional

Intuiting
Abstract
Imaginative
Conceptual
Theoretical
Original

Thinking
Logical
Reasonable
Questioning
Critical
Tough

Feeling
Empathetic
Compassionate
Accommodating
Accepting
Tender

Judging
Systematic
Planful
Early Starting
Scheduled
Methodical

Perceiving
Casual
Open-ended
Prompted
Spontaneous
Emergent

So yes, you still have your dominant letter because at least 3 out of 5 will fall on one side or the other.

As far as learning how to use a nondominant function, there's a problem of origin and avenue. Let me see if I can paint the picture in my head...

When a fresh brain starts getting nerve impulses through its brand new nervous system it doesn't know what it means. It has to figure it out through trial and error, and to accomplish that it needs to use a function through the brain to process it. How that function is selected it uncertain, but it becomes very, very important to that individual because it is now intertwined directly with how the body understands its surroundings. The neurons have literally become a model of that function however it is expressed. As the individual starts deciphering information it becomes obvious that the single function is insufficient to deal with all the stimuli, so the auxiliary function is built to handle the excess (now the person has both introverted and extraverted functions through which to build the rest of their psyche, but one is far more involved in the process of 'being').

When a person learns about the complexities of life and that each problem is solved best with a tailor made solution, different functions become available, but those functions are always on the outside. Understood by the dominant functions, just like math or language. You can use a function extensively enough to build a neural network to deal with that function, but in order for the person not to develop multiple personalities, information that runs through that network must reference the original dominant network that connects the brain to everything else.

When a person undergoes a stroke, parts of their neural network are shut off, or die entirely. That's why after a stroke people's personality sometimes changes. Introverted people become extraverts, judgers become perceivers... its like starting over because they've lost that foundational understanding of their body's nervous system.

 

[Decaf]

As far as feeling more comfortable with doing things like extraverting when you're an introvert, your feelings of ill-ease have nothing to do with you being introverted. They have to do with not having very mature use of your extraverted alternative. You still have the same preference you had before. You've just compensated for what started out as a blind spot.

 

[NoID10ts]

Decaf, I just want to say that I appreciate your insights on this stuff. Mbti is a new world for me, personally, and I find your input very helpful.

 

[Dissident]

Each person is a four letter type, but there is some overlap that happens when you break each type down into its requisite 5 parts.

So yes, you still have your dominant letter because at least 3 out of 5 will fall on one side or the other.

The requisites are 5 just as they could be 6? or is there a specific criteria why they are the ones they are?

You can use a function extensively enough to build a neural network to deal with that function, but in order for the person not to develop multiple personalities, information that runs through that network must reference the original dominant network that connects the brain to everything else.

Let me see if I get this straight: So when we use a lower function we are not using it in a completely direct way but through the main one?

 

[Perseus]

When a person undergoes a stroke, parts of their neural network are shut off, or die entirely. That's why after a stroke people's personality sometimes changes. Introverted people become extraverts, judgers become perceivers... its like starting over because they've lost that foundational understanding of their body's nervous system.

This is what happened to me. I had three brain convulsions when attacked by a ESFJ (Unicorn variant). I moved towards the Introversion end of the scale. I am now returning to almost ENTP. Note that being an ENTP is dangerous. I was threatened again yesterday, and warned to get married or else I will not be popular. Or rather I would be eliminated.

Guards! Guards! there is a Serpent (ENTP) transforming to Eagle (INTP).

 

[Decaf]

The requisites are 5 just as they could be 6? or is there a specific criteria why they are the ones they are?

That's how I work with it, but perhaps its not a very good way to use it in theory. I haven't figured out a metaphor to help it make sense, which is annoying because I generally always have a metaphor. My answer was circular (defined to give the answer we want), but I still believe in the dichotomous nature of things based on what I said after that. Let me think about this and I'll see if I can figure out what I mean in words.

Let me see if I get this straight: So when we use a lower function we are not using it in a completely direct way but through the main one?

That's my understanding of the theory. Think of using your non-dominant functions like a combo shot in pool. Its a little harder, but after a lot of practice its a perfectly viable way to make a shot when its appropriate (see what I mean about metaphors?).

This part of the explanation is anecdotal, but during my qualification class we talked about (and "verified" by independent Q&A) that each person there STARTED each process with their more dominant function even if they were developed enough to easily transition into their non-dominant function once the first had time to get traction. That start I think describes in operation what I'm trying to describe with neurobiology.

 

[Decaf]

This is what happened to me. I had three brain convulsions

Please describe a brain convulsion. A stroke is when parts of the brain suffocate, not physical injury. That's a concussion.

 

[Dissident]

That's my understanding of the theory. Think of using your non-dominant functions like a combo shot in pool. Its a little harder, but after a lot of practice its a perfectly viable way to make a shot when its appropriate (see what I mean about metaphors?).

If thats so then I understand, but that would mean that, for example, my Te will never be as the Te of an ENTJ, mine would be like an emulation, not the real thing; and it wouldnt come spontaneusly but as a conscius effort, right?

 

[Decaf]

Right. It could become as spontaneous as any other habit, but not like a reflex. Like running a well built Super Nintendo emulator on a PC. It could be indistinguishable, but its not the same.

 

[Dissident]

I think I get it, thanks a lot.

 

[Decaf]

No problem. Honestly I put my theories together based on thoughtful questions like yours so I really appreciate that.

 

[Jesin]

I haven't had your training, but I don't entirely agree with that. I'm with you on the "X is not a type" thing, but I'm not sure about some of the particulars of your theories.

 

[Decaf]

A lot of what I say wasn't taught to me. It's what I think. Ask your questions and we'll talk about it. Its the only way I'm gonna be able to refine what I have so far.

 

[Agent Intellect]

i wonder if animals would be able to get a personality type? (obviously it'd have to have different standards then the human ones).

this is interesting, although i'm having a difficult time thinking about how i could excersize my weaker functions. i can get all "feelings" with my girlfriend, but even that i can see it as what you were talking about (having to work it through my thinking function) and my family is who i end up being the most INTP with. people outside my family (hell, even you guys) probably no more about me then they do. does anyone else experience that?

i'd like nothing better then to strengthen my weaker functions (maybe i'd be less miserable/alcoholic) but i don't know if i'd be able to. it'd be too uncomfortable and it'd probably just make me become even more reserved and detached.

 

[Dissident]

people outside my family (hell, even you guys) probably no more about me then they do. does anyone else experience that?

Totally. Im not so sure why tho.

 

[Perseus]

Please describe a brain convulsion. A stroke is when parts of the brain suffocate, not physical injury. That's a concussion.

See

http://www.ecureme.com/emyhealth/data/Convulsions.asp

Added, that when I had the bleeeding in the head, it was mainly feeling cold and not wanting to die alone.

I have had subsequent ones with hallucinations and profuse sweating. It is called Critical Stress and I am not sure what the survival rate is. It is incapacitating.

It it came after I was stalked and attacked by a bandit (ESFJ at Critical Stress with violent mania and twisted logic).

 

[Decaf]

That's not the kind of physical injury I'm talking about. The only documented way that a seizure can cause brain damage or partial brain death is if it causes a stroke. Now if that happened, then its perfectly possible that all this applies to you, but the net result for personality change would be a complete change from one state to another. Functions are self constructing and self reinforcing because they're based on very simple premises that the brain uses to work.

It sounds more likely that the event caused behavioral changes that you are now recovering from and that you might actually be an ENTP who shied away from extraverting himself for a while. I don't see any indication of a complete personality shift (much less a reverse shift, which is much more unlikely than the first considering brain damage is necessary for it to happen).

 

[Perseus]

That's not the kind of physical injury I'm talking about. The only documented way that a seizure can cause brain damage or partial brain death is if it causes a stroke. Now if that happened, then its perfectly possible that all this applies to you, but the net result for personality change would be a complete change from one state to another. Functions are self constructing and self reinforcing because they're based on very simple premises that the brain uses to work.

It sounds more likely that the event caused behavioral changes that you are now recovering from and that you might actually be an ENTP who shied away from extraverting himself for a while. I don't see any indication of a complete personality shift (much less a reverse shift, which is much more unlikely than the first considering brain damage is necessary for it to happen).

ENTP IS VERY CLOSE TO MY PERSONALITY TYPE. THIS IS THE SERPENT TRANSFORMING TO EAGLE WHICH IS WELL KNOWN BECAUSE OF THE DANGER SERPENTS FACE FROM THE GUARDIANS.

Diagnosis was concussion with bleeding in the brain causing dangerous levels of high blood pressure. Personality shift occurred. It is now returning to homeostasis. XNXP is close to normal. The second X, heart and head causes a dilemma. Not least, because the next head attack is likely to be fatal. Three threats in the last four days, partially veiled, but as real as they can be.

 

[Decaf]

ENTP IS VERY CLOSE TO MY PERSONALITY TYPE. THIS IS THE SERPENT TRANSFORMING TO EAGLE WHICH IS WELL KNOWN BECAUSE OF THE DANGER SERPENTS FACE FROM THE GUARDIANS.

Diagnosis was concussion with bleeding in the brain causing dangerous levels of high blood pressure. Personality shift occurred. It is now returning to homeostasis. XNXP is close to normal. The second X, heart and head causes a dilemma. Not least, because the next head attack is likely to be fatal. Three threats in the last four days, partially veiled, but as real as they can be.

The difference between ENTP and INTP is that ENTP's dominant function is Extraverted Intuition and their auxiliary is Introverted Thinking. The opposite is true for INTPs which is why if an ENTP isn't able to use their dominant function they could easily end up behaving and believing themselves to be INTPs. Because they are relying solely on their Introverted Thinking. That is not a beneficial place to be, because they will never be able to use their dominant intuition as a proper auxiliary to help their introverted thinking. Instead the introverted thinking takes over and envelopes the original personality.

Traumatic Brain Injury (which it sounds like what you're describing) can cause personality changes (I didn't know that, but I'm learning about it) similarly to a stroke because of how it affects blood flow in the brain. So you're definately right about that and I take back what I said about stroke being unique in that way. Here's the problem... the first paragraph still applies. An ENTP with a TBI who experiences the lack of their dominant extraverted intuition isn't now an INTP. INTPs still have access to their extraverted intuition as an auxiliary function, whereas the injured ENTP does not, or if they do can use it in a limited way. Yes, your personality changes, but your type doesn't. There's a difference between an INTP and an impaired ENTP.

I'm still trying to figure out if I should take offense at the suggestion that an INTP is basically an ENTP with brain damage.

 

[Jesin]

I'm still trying to figure out if I should take offense at the suggestion that an INTP is basically an ENTP with brain damage.

You could argue just as well that an ENTP is an INTP with brain damage.

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

lol

 

[Perseus]

Critical Stress is when the Inferior Function operating as lead agent. For a INTP you/I actually change into a ESFJ. It is frightening to see how these maniacs actually see the world. In fact, the most accurate desocription is that you think you are going mad. Critical Stress mostly resembles PTSD is standard medical terminology. It is not like schizophrenia, more like clinical depression, or even love sickness. The latter is hypersensitivity. At least, I think that is all. I am getting some Quenck books out on dream imagery, because it is out of my league.

There is more information on Critical Stress available.

 

[Jesin]

Critical Stress is when the Inferior Function operating as lead agent. For a INTP you/I actually change into a ESFJ. It is frightening to see how these maniacs actually see the world.

NO, that is NOT how they actually see the world. That is how an incredibly immature ESFJ sees the world. When your best two functions crash and you're left with only the not-very-developed ones, well, of course it'll feel like you're going mad.

 

[Wisp]

Thank you Jesin, I coudn't have said it beter myself.

 

[Death]

This part of the explanation is anecdotal, but during my qualification class we talked about (and "verified" by independent Q&A) that each person there STARTED each process with their more dominant function even if they were developed enough to easily transition into their non-dominant function once the first had time to get traction. That start I think describes in operation what I'm trying to describe with neurobiology.

Do we use our irrational (S/N) function to 'emulate' the other irrational function,and likewise for (T/F)? I've been thinking about this,and ended up here.

 

[Wisp]

What do you mean?

You CANT use S/N in place of T/F, it just doesn't work.

SN is used to acquire info, TF is used to make decisions about it.

The question is which you use first.

(We use Ti, typologically)

 

[Jesin]

No, he was asking this: Do we use N to emulate S? Do we use T to emulate F?

 

[Decaf]

Do we use our irrational (S/N) function to 'emulate' the other irrational function,and likewise for (T/F)? I've been thinking about this,and ended up here.

No, he was asking this: Do we use N to emulate S? Do we use T to emulate F?

Yes... according to my understanding.

In my own experience I am a fairly proficient F when I need to be. Not that I'm passively aware of what a real feeler would be, but that I can relate to others when I'm talking to them. The problem is that I don't have a lot of control over the process. I can use it, but if you want me to cheer you up when you're sad, I can't do it at the same time. When I'm using my extraverted feeling function I am stuck on one speed... whatever you're feeling. I don't understand the subtleties of how one mood becomes another, and so I don't know how to lead someone down it.

That said... how does T fit in. This is one of the most significant things I got from MBTI. I started to learn how people think in a way that doesn't assume they think like me. That was INCREDIBLY helpful in my whole life approach. Suddenly I was able to process what was happening to other people because I could translate it into my first language, objective processing.

<sigh> I wrote that in several chunks so I apologize if it wasn't cohesive but I don't have time to proof read

 

[Wisp]

Ah. Well, in that case the answer's yes, but fairly inefficiently, as it's better to just develop your tertiary and shadow.

 

[Decaf]

Ah. Well, in that case the answer's yes, but fairly inefficiently, as it's better to just develop your tertiary and shadow.

If someone is an NT, then their inferiors are, by default, S and F of the opposite orientation. You CAN learn to use them, and ideally that's what growing up is all about (the uncontrolled shadow version is done without the guidance of your dominant functions).

 

[UtilityRhombus]

I'm an INTP who became xNTP (Developed Extraverted side). How to explain such a thing?

 

[pjoa09]

I'm an INTP who became xNTP (Developed Extraverted side). How to explain such a thing?

Damn, 2008!

It's just a matter if you are using your Ti more or Ne more.

Ti tends to complicate decisions and understandings dramatically in the pursuit of clarity.

Ne tends to brainstorm various ideas and understand patterns in their environment. Allows them to pick up the social construct of their peers.

If you find yourself exhausted by greeting and communicating with strangers on a day to day basis it is likely that you are introverted.

If solitude is a frightful and unbearable thought, you are most likely to be extroverted.

My point is that developed communication skills does not translate to extroversion.