Why most of INTP cannot believe in god?

[Cloud9]

Hi guys,

I really tried so hard to believe , but I COULDN'T.


So, as an intp what do you think the reasons are?


Do you believe in god?

or in any supernatural powers?

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

http://intpforum.com/search.php?searchid=1807520
http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=20961&highlight=god
http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=20821&highlight=god
Use the search function instead of creating redundant threads. Have some basic etiquette.

It is impossible to make claims pertaining to the qualities of "belief" and "INTP" and "most" for the sentence to remain true without any sort of evidence or research.

Short answer : Because they can think for themselves. Some people have the bare minimum of critical thinking to not accept baseless assertions.

Not implying any kind of belief as being baseless, only in a common understanding of religious following.

 

[onesteptwostep]

It's possible that you already believe and that you haven't realized it yet.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

It all depends on how you define God.

I believe in an intangible God that is both within and around me; part of me and I part of it... Something like the Neoplatonic One. I'm not an INTP, but The One is pretty much all-inclusive.

As far as other supernatural powers go... I believe in premonitions (deja vu, dreams)... and actually demons, in the context of a demon being a form one can become, specifically, in moral terms, something that one must overcome.

 

[8151147]

I don't trust in the god figure of religion, or any god figures that have human characteristics.

However when talking about something like x, where x= "god" = the creator = natural = supreme system = the original = the Tao...etc..., I feel like it exist either for its purpose or for nothing.

The god of religions are about sympathy, of course INTPs who have dominant Ti can't tolerate it.

 

[Torojan]

It's probably a result of extended critical thinking. We eventually realize what a lot of others think is religion and tend to reject it because of the baseless devotion.

What I'm saying is that I don't believe in regular rituals of 'paying your respects' to God. I do believe that there was some almighty force which set the world as we know it into place and ran a set timeline for it. It's also why I kind of believe in fate. My image of God isn't a popular one. I most closely identify with the idea of Deism: the almighty being sealed himself away after creation, leaving other people to run their world by themselves. I don't completely identify with it because it slightly clashes with the idea of fate. That leads me to saying...typical of INTPs, this thought process and inner working is incomplete. I'm showing you what I've concluded so far, and it's subject to change.

 

[Rook]

Speaking from a christian point of view, I did believe in god as a child, and I know some of the other forum members did too, and some still hold certain religious stances.
So it is possible for intps, whether their belief was borne out of choice or upbringing.
As I grew up, this belief met with too many paradoxes and lapses of logic, so I abandoned it.
Currently, I find this subject quite tedious.

As Blarruan stated, there are a myriad of threads already exploring this theme.

 

[Black Rose]

https://youtu.be/PfHtkKWHpjc

 

[Doktorin Zylinder]

Having been raised s Jew, I can say that the Judeo-Christian God of the Old Testament sounds like nothing more than an emotionally insecure parental figure. What threw me off when I started studying Christianity and other religions was God seems to do a complete one-eighty and is a loving benevolent entity. I think the literal interpretation of the New Testament has created major agony for a lot of people. I took to Zen and Taoism after that more as a life philosophy rather than a religious outlook. Those also helped me look into the Gnostic texts and interpretation of the words of Jesus. He makes a lot more sense from a non-dualistic perspective. I'd be more inclined to think there is an all pervasive force that influences and maintains the universe rather than a guy sitting on a cloud throwing down shit tests to inferior beings and then chucking them into a pit of fire for cleansing or eternity, depending on the religion, for not giving him the correct subjective response. Hey, Alex, I'll take burn in Hell for sixteen hundred, please. It just seems so illogical that a personified being of supposedly pure and eternal love would create such a place of torment let alone let bad things happen to begin with.

Like I said, I prefer the Zen/Taoist approach. All things are one, but that does not mean they are the same. I can't really go into it much more without sounding incredibly paradoxical. It's something that has to be experienced; it's just ineffable (I'm using that word a lot lately).

 

[Jennywocky]

God told me he wasn't real.
(I believed him.)

 

[Inquisitor]

The whole idea of God is widely misunderstood. God = the universe, both the manifested (space, time, matter, energy) and the unmanifested (nothingness). Human beings have always wanted to "return to the source," "become one with everything," "commune with nature," etc. The question is how do you go about doing that? Answer: personify the universe i.e. create a single deity or create many. It's much easier to emotionally connect with an all-loving mother (the virgin Mary) or an all-loving saviour (Jesus) than it is to connect with nothingness or space-time. You can imagine a deity, visualize it, hug it, cherish it, love it, communicate with it like you would your mother or father, but the same cannot be said of the universe as a whole or even part of it. Try loving the Milky Way galaxy as much as you would your own mother...it just can't be done. When you learn to love a deity, you desperately want to reunite with him/her. This makes it much easier for you to break your attachments to worldly affairs. You then become single-minded in your quest to destroy any and all impediments that keep you away from your deity. In practice this means overcoming many obstacles such as lust, desire for worldly success/fame/money, all anger/hatred, your attachment to your body, life itself, and in the final stages, even attachment to any form of existence at all.

So...God is a tool. Whoever your God is, his purpose is to help you return to the source (Matrix style). He is the universe, and you are part of the universe, therefore you are part of Him but you are under the illusion that you are a separate, discrete entity, and that, in a nutshell, is the cause of all suffering in this world.

 

[Torojan]

The whole idea of God is widely misunderstood. God = the universe, both the manifested (space, time, matter, energy) and the unmanifested (nothingness). Human beings have always wanted to "return to the source," "become one with everything," "commune with nature," etc. The question is how do you go about doing that? Answer: personify the universe i.e. create a single deity or create many. It's much easier to emotionally connect with an all-loving mother (the virgin Mary) or an all-loving saviour (Jesus) than it is to connect with nothingness or space-time. You can imagine a deity, visualize it, hug it, cherish it, love it, communicate with it like you would your mother or father, but the same cannot be said of the universe as a whole or even part of it. Try loving the Milky Way galaxy as much as you would your own mother...it just can't be done. When you learn to love a deity, you desperately want to reunite with him/her. This makes it much easier for you to break your attachments to worldly affairs. You then become single-minded in your quest to destroy any and all impediments that keep you away from your deity. In practice this means overcoming many obstacles such as lust, desire for worldly success/fame/money, all anger/hatred, your attachment to your body, life itself, and in the final stages, even attachment to any form of existence at all.

So...God is a tool. Whoever your God is, his purpose is to help you return to the source (Matrix style). He is the universe, and you are part of the universe, therefore you are part of Him but you are under the illusion that you are a separate, discrete entity, and that, in a nutshell, is the cause of all suffering in this world.

That's..a really interesting way to interpret God. Yes, I say it like that because I'm not fully sold on this. "...you are a part of Him but you are under the illusion that you are a separate, discrete entity, and that, in a nutshell is the cause of all suffering in this world." Do you believe that religion/belief in God is the root of all the misery out there in the world? Is there another component to the suffering, or does it all trace back to religion?

From what I understand from your post, you're saying that we do not need to search for Him because he's already there, in your reach, and always has. Do you personally think God is personifiable? Can you love the bed next to you as if it were a piece of an almighty being? If so, and pardon me if this is a silly question, how do you think this ties into the concept of pansexuality? Can you love yourself as if you were a piece of an almighty being? If so, how could this tie into the idea of narcissism?

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

The whole idea of God is widely misunderstood. God = the universe, both the manifested (space, time, matter, energy) and the unmanifested (nothingness). Human beings have always wanted to "return to the source," "become one with everything," "commune with nature," etc. The question is how do you go about doing that? Answer: personify the universe i.e. create a single deity or create many. It's much easier to emotionally connect with an all-loving mother (the virgin Mary) or an all-loving saviour (Jesus) than it is to connect with nothingness or space-time. You can imagine a deity, visualize it, hug it, cherish it, love it, communicate with it like you would your mother or father, but the same cannot be said of the universe as a whole or even part of it. Try loving the Milky Way galaxy as much as you would your own mother...it just can't be done. When you learn to love a deity, you desperately want to reunite with him/her. This makes it much easier for you to break your attachments to worldly affairs. You then become single-minded in your quest to destroy any and all impediments that keep you away from your deity. In practice this means overcoming many obstacles such as lust, desire for worldly success/fame/money, all anger/hatred, your attachment to your body, life itself, and in the final stages, even attachment to any form of existence at all.

So...God is a tool. Whoever your God is, his purpose is to help you return to the source (Matrix style). He is the universe, and you are part of the universe, therefore you are part of Him but you are under the illusion that you are a separate, discrete entity, and that, in a nutshell, is the cause of all suffering in this world.

I think you bring up a valid (and beautiful!) point no matter if you believe in God or not. We created the notion of God (and religion for that matter) for good purpose. God serves us in our loneliness and longing.

 

[Inquisitor]

That's..a really interesting way to interpret God. Yes, I say it like that because I'm not fully sold on this. "...you are a part of Him but you are under the illusion that you are a separate, discrete entity, and that, in a nutshell is the cause of all suffering in this world."

I'm just stating the facts as I understand them from reading about this topic + pondering...These are not my own original ideas. If you think about it, even on a purely physical level, we are all made of stardust, so really, if the universe and everything in it = God, then you are made of God. So you're at least a part of Him physically.

Do you believe that religion/belief in God is the root of all the misery out there in the world? Is there another component to the suffering, or does it all trace back to religion?

No. Religion is obviously not a cure-all. Look at all the wars. But there is a spiritual tradition within each of the world's major religions, and that tradition aims at "liberation" from existence. What I meant in that paragraph was that if you see yourself as being a one-person island, which most people do, consciously or not, then you are bound to suffer. That's the classic Buddhist take on things. If you are able to disintegrate this illusion and see the interdependence of all things (dependent origination), then you are by definition free of all attachment and aversion. How can lust after or be angry at something if you see it as an extension of yourself? Obviously though, you still need to retain at least part of your ego if you want to remain in existence, so in reality, it's impossible to reach this state entirely...But it's the intent that counts.

From what I understand from your post, you're saying that we do not need to search for Him because he's already there, in your reach, and always has. Do you personally think God is personifiable?

Loving a deity does not come naturally to us INTPs...I think Buddhism is more our flavor. Yes there are deities in the Buddhist pantheon, but you don't really have to embrace them to make spiritual progress. Sure He's personifiable...take Jesus for example, imagine sitting in his lap, or giving him a hug, or talking to Him as if He were your own father. It's really easy. He's the embodiment of compassion and he represents the entirety of the cosmos, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." That's how I read that. I'm sure there's more to it than just that though.

Can you love the bed next to you as if it were a piece of an almighty being

With a lot of hard work, yes, I believe it can be done. Probably takes a lifetime of training though.

If so, and pardon me if this is a silly question, how do you think this ties into the concept of pansexuality?

Usually celibacy is required in the initial stages of any spiritual "career." How are you going to break your attachment to lust otherwise? Sexual continence is a must. Once you have accomplished this though and you have absolutely no shred of desire remaining, I believe it is possible to engage in sexual acts (Tantra offers methods for example) that actually help to further your spiritual progress, but in this case, you are no longer identifying with the sexual act itself. I have a hard time grasping this concept myself, but you're basically using sex as a means to a pure spiritual end as opposed to an end in itself.

Can you love yourself as if you were a piece of an almighty being? If so, how could this tie into the idea of narcissism?

I see it more as you learn to love all things equally. Supposedly people gain "abilities" through spiritual practice. If that goes to your head though, then your ego is going to balloon and narcissism/megalomania may get the better of you. I think it's healthy to have an ego and be confident, but it's got to be kept in check.

I think you bring up a valid (and beautiful!) point no matter if you believe in God or not. We created the notion of God (and religion for that matter) for good purpose. God serves us in our loneliness and longing.

Glad you like it. Not my ideas at all though. Just restating what I've come across in my readings on this.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Why most of INTP cannot believe in god?

Most? How many of them do you know?

 

[StevenM]

Do you believe in god?

or in any supernatural powers?

It's a mystery. If I were to say, yes, there is a God, and yes, ghosts are real, it would no longer be unexplained, because I have just explained it.

That's how I am for now. The topic, and anything connected is a mystery, in which I have no explanation of. I have speculations though.

Why most of INTP cannot believe in god?

Be sure your inferences are not biased. What about other types? Could there be other explanations that effect a person's religious beliefs? <-(that are not MBTI related)

Maybe, it could be some kind of cultural/societal influence.

 

[Brontosaurie]

I think you bring up a valid (and beautiful!) point no matter if you believe in God or not. We created the notion of God (and religion for that matter) for good purpose. God serves us in our loneliness and longing.

what's beautiful about fear, weakness, impatience and stupidity?



we created god because we were too scared and weak to open our eyes yet. that's not beautiful. it's an awkward accidental knot on the developmental line of consciousness. at the very best it's like having to take a dump. the only thing beautiful about it is that it is something. it's trivially beautiful.

please don't mind my brusque tone. it's not reflective of my attitude toward you in person.

is it the beauty of children? should we treat our own theoretical past as an adorable kid in need of support and nourishment? isn't that just backwards? why attend to the needs of what is not a fresh human with potential for greatness but an obsolete inferior mindset?

what else could the beauty be?

man history bugs me.

 

[Sinny91]

I was born and raised Roman Catholic, by my Irish family.
By my teenage years I realised that they didn't really practice Godly morals, and so I became disillusioned with the concept of organised religion and declared my self an athiest by about 16.

By 19 I had a encounter which altered my perception of all things I thought I had known and took to the web to investigate. Over the next few years I explored most of the branches of Theology, and by today, I am certain of nothing.

I don't picture 'God' as a man in the clouds, or an individual being.
But something unknown.

We could be an aliens science project, we could be made in God own image.
We could be a chance result of so called evolution.
But in the end, I will never know for certain.
Not this side of the veil. I leave myself open to all distinct possibilities.

Sometimes I just hope that when we are done here, we return to the veil of nothingness.

 

[Sinny91]

Hi guys,

I really tried so hard to believe , but I COULDN'T.

As an after thought, howdo you define 'God', and what couldn't you believe?

 

[Cloud9]

Blarraun

Short answer : Because they can think for themselves. Some people have the bare minimum of critical thinking to not accept baseless assertions.

Not implying any kind of belief as being baseless, only in a common understanding of religious following.

critical thinking yeah exactly ... !!



onesteptwostep

It's possible that you already believe and that you haven't realized it yet.

that's possible! . . I think it's like since we don't know many things ..it could be worlds we know nothing about, and also , if there is no creator then HOW? or before 1 must be 0 ?


the habitat doctor

and actually demons, in the context of a demon being a form one can become, specifically, in moral terms, something that one must overcome.

intersting :O !

yeah.. I see it as the dark side in us .. the evil desire that we should control it to the good side..

..


I'll be back~

 

[ZenRaiden]

I think its more of a social thing than an intellectual thing. Believing in God is not a problem. Many people do believe and they have pretty much outstanding critical thinking skills. The problem is that INTPs in general dont like being told what to think and while interested in theory and speculations INTPs always try to understand things so the word belief kind of goes against their nature. On the other hand if you think about it for some time and realize that we all form some degree of beliefs, even if they are not about God or religious, there is really not much difference from God believers. We just have different sort of beliefs. Knowledge is limited and life is to complicated. We simply can not live our life and basing every single decision on a well informed opinion. Sometimes we are just as in dark as anyone else.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

what's beautiful about fear, weakness, impatience and stupidity?



we created god because we were too scared and weak to open our eyes yet. that's not beautiful. it's an awkward accidental knot on the developmental line of consciousness. at the very best it's like having to take a dump. the only thing beautiful about it is that it is something. it's trivially beautiful.

please don't mind my brusque tone. it's not reflective of my attitude toward you in person.

is it the beauty of children? should we treat our own theoretical past as an adorable kid in need of support and nourishment? isn't that just backwards? why attend to the needs of what is not a fresh human with potential for greatness but an obsolete inferior mindset?

what else could the beauty be?

man history bugs me.

Not offended in the slightest as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? The notion of being separate but connected (which is what I read into Inquisitors post) has been a part of my contemplation for a long time. Being a conscious separate being necessitates and brings into focus our loneliness in an existential sense (and in a real sense as no one can exist alone). Which then sets us up to long for union (union could be thought of as returning to the universe "God"). The problem with this is that once we're a conscious separate being we at once long and fear this union (what happens to "me" when I'm no more and have merged?) On the flip side, anxiety is created because we are separate and lonely. We CAN"T escape the anxiety. This I see as the suffering of mankind: the anxiety created by this ambivalence. What we tend to do is fight it by taking one side. Either being staunchly independent and denying the side of us that longs for merging or letting go and losing ourselves. Neither is what we want! What we (humans) want is both! We want to be separate and connected at the same time. This seems to be the razor's edge we need to walk and the path to a higher self or transcendence or in religious terms, theosis/deification.

What I find beautiful is what seems to be an elegant universal process (the quest for both) that gets played out for the whole for humanity that could lead to a transformed self.

Yes, I've strayed wayyyy off course but my Ni is thrilled

 

[EditorOne]

Too many paradoxes, like the one I just heard somewhere yesterday: "I can grasp the concept of a god, but I can't grasp the concept of a god who needs to take attendance."