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where did Brain go?

brain enclosed in flesh

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Well, I am here after a long sabbatical of sorts. I had no computer, and I reached the conclusion, abso-100%-tutely that I am an INFJ, not an INTP, which made me less inclined, I guess, to come around at the moments when I had an opportunity.

So if anyone has questions about this, INTP vs INFJ, ie, why the hell would someone consider themself an INTP when they are an INFJ, oh feel free to ask.

Hope everyone's well...
 
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I feel way too unstructured and too accepting of variability to be INTJ, although grammatically I can be that way.
 

flow

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Well I actually went a solid 2 months or so believing I was an INFJ. I took the test on some site other than mypersonality.info and came out a judger.. I don't know why. I can definitely see how I'd come out a feeler, as I'm very close on every test I take, but I'm absolutely a perceiver. I've accepted my INXPness and for over a year now and I've basically removed all doubt. I could see how one could think to be an INTP and end up actually being an INFJ though, they're not toooo far apart. How did you end up coming to the conclusion that you're not predominately a thinking perceiver though?
 

Ermine

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Likewise, I have a lot of Jness, but it's having a power struggle with my P. I can be rigid, and I seem to like structure, but at the same time, I don't like being that way, so sometimes it's a tossup.
 

Inappropriate Behavior

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Brain! Although I guess you can't go by that name anymore. How about harmony enclosed in flesh?

Well whatever. Good to see you back around these parts. Whatever you are, we still like you.
 

GarmGarf

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INFJ?

Eh... yeah why the hell did you think that you were an INTP?

(I only noticed the F when I checked Brain's profile page to see if the MBTI was altered.)
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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I could see how one could think to be an INTP and end up actually being an INFJ though, they're not toooo far apart. How did you end up coming to the conclusion that you're not predominately a thinking perceiver though?

Primarily, it's not about the thinking or the perceiving, it's about the intuition. I've always tested highest in intuition, but I am an introvert, so I couldn't see how I would be an ENTP, not to mention I checked out their forums and I couldn't relate to them AT ALL. Turns out I was confusing Ne with Ni, on my part. My intuition is very inner directed; it's all about the aha! moments, among other things. Hard to put a finger on Ni, it's so fundamental to the way I think or feel, how I make my conclusions, but so hard to describe...

F and T have always been even for me. INFJ goes Ni Fe Ti Se, so it makes sense that my F and T would be more closely aligned, versus one being primary and the other inferior. Also, I've become increasingly aware that I do use F more than T, and I also knew there was no way that it was Te for me, not to mention I most decidedly don't think in the same way/value the same things that most INTJs do, although I can 'get' them to an extent.

As far as J goes, closure and definitiveness is something I am always seeking. I won't let go until I find those things. And though I can appreciate spontaneity and enjoy it, overall I need a purpose, some sort of guiding motivation to most of what I do.

So there's that.
 
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I could possibly be somewhat ISFP but its probably something like T-60% F-40%. same with N/S. I haven't taken one of those tests that measure percentage so I don't know. maybe its closer to 50/50. I over-analyze things and have been told that by several people so I'm more inclined to think I am more T than F but I do feel and perceive things very strongly too. The I is concrete, the N/S could probably be flipped depending on extreme moods. I definitely use T more than F, and P is very dominant in me. I and P tendencies are probably over 75% for me. Alcohol can somewhat tip the scale for these but still probably 50/50, maybe 60%E at most.

the strongest types I am is INTP-60% INFP-25% ISTP-8% ISFP-7%
just an educated guess on my part
an alternate might be INTP-70% INFP 15% ISTP-6% ISFP-5% INTJ-4%
I think that pretty much covers my range but still just guess work,
of the 12+ times I tried the MBTI test(online, multiple sites) I only got INFP once or twice. The others are small tendencies I notice in myself.

I think I just figured out more about myself just by putting this post together.
 

Beat Mango

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I wouldn't worry about what you are or aren't, the Myer Briggs test is the kind of thing where the closer you look, the more confusing it becomes. Eg I took the facebook and I came up INFP - ugh!! I feel so dirty. INFJ's are cool though, in fact I love them. Are you longing for your soulmate Brain? Seems to be a common INFJ theme.
 

truthseeker72

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It's good to have you back, regardless of your MBTI type.
 

fullerene

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yeah, welcome back.

INTPs and INFJs really are pretty close to each other. er... a lot more than you would think, by looking at the letters.

I actually wrote these descriptions for the intuitions for another site, and have gotten tremendous complements on them (from ENFPs and INFJs) so far, so I may as well repost them. Ni is not "really" about the aha! moments... it just tends to lead to them quite frequently.

Extravereted Intuition - Ne

Ne is an extraverted Perceiving function, meaning that it gathers information from the external world. Ne shares the spontineity of Se, except instead of seeing "what is," it perceives "what could be." Instead of working on objects, it works on ideas. Ne brainstorms, envisioning all the possibilities, creating new solutions to old problems, inventing scenarios while doing causal things (like walking down the street), perceives meaningful connections that aren't obviously related, and generally seeks to find all the possible ways that something could be. Ne-dominant types are the most creative and adaptive of all types. Se is also very adaptive, spur of the moment, but Ne is adaptive in a timeless sense. If things change suddenly or unexpectedly, the odds are that Ne has seen the change as something that could happen, and the person has wondered what they would do in that situation. They can be startled, of course, but it's quite an impressive feat to truly surprise someone with a strong Ne!

If you are an intuitive, you will probably understand how Ne can be called a "divergent" function. It looks at one situation, and imagines many possibilities. It looks at one object, and invents many uses. It starts by looking at banks, and ends up filtering through politics, conspiricies, political theory, philosophy, and then many individual philosophers' metaphysical ideas. Wikipedia is truly Intuition's Playground. In each of these cases, however, Ne begins at one point and splits off into many directions.

Intraverted Intuition - Ni

Ni is in intraverted Perceiving function, meaning that, like Si, it gathers information from within. Specifically, it perceives abstract meanings, symbols, underlying principles, and connects wildly varying ideas from a single root. For this reason, many Ni-dominant people feel like aliens, as if they perceive a completely different reality from everyone else. As they begin to grow up, they may become confused and wonder why everyone else doesn't see things as interrelated as they do. Ni is also the function of double meanings. While an Ne-person may argue two contradicting points of view at two separate times, Ni will--sometimes quite reasonably--affirm both points of view at the same time, and honestly believe that both are true. Ni is also very good at gathering the information necessary to predict the future, and seeing a situation from different perspectives. A person with a strong Ni can switch from one point of view to another almost effortlessly, flip flopping until a most favorable one--or most favorable few--are found. People with a strong Ni will find the deep themes of poetry as easy to interpret as the surface ones, and have the ability to easily pick skills learned in one area and reapply them in another.

For these reasons, Ni is a very "convergent" function. Contradicting ideas are brought together and called "same." The lines between different points of view are blurred. Many different situations are solved using the same set of internal principles. Many different symbols collide into the same physical object. While Ne diverges from one point into many, Ni synthesizes many points into one.

It is good to see you again, though, yes.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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yes, good way to describe Ni, especially about sharing a number of points of view at once. A question a therapist once posed to me: "Why do you have a tendency to lose yourself?" Meaning, I feel other people's positions/ personalities/ mannerisms so naturally they can sometimes become my own. Which may be part of the whole INTP mis-type.

To be as succinct as possible about it, I was head over heels for someone. (Yes, Mango, I considered him to be my soul mate). Due to our being thousands of miles apart, we only communicated via telephone/email. This was the perfect scenario for my fantasy world to take over; because I couldn't interact with him in person, I did it on my own. I imagined him brushing his teeth. I imagined him walking to work. I imagined us having conversations about every single thing that occurred within my life, what I concluded to be his life based on our limited real-life conversations.

This imaginary world became so detailed and believable to me I took it as real. I think Ni likes to build an extensive framework of understanding, and it will use whatever resources it can obtain to achieve its goal. So when the very second I did finally see him, and the immediate thought/feeling that spread through my body was, "I will always love this boy ridiculous amounts but it will never work out," as you can imagine it was pretty devastating. I tried to convince my intuition that it was wrong; I continued, obsessively, to try and make it happen, but he stopped answering my phone calls, completely cut me off.

He is, I suspect, an INTP. He seemed to be fine with the situation; he seemed to move on, no problems, no worse for the wear. So I think I naturally began to emulate him, one: because it seemed safer, and two: because I felt my intuition and my feelings had betrayed me. They gave me faulty information which led me into this ridiculous fantasy, so I thought, and I hated them for it.

Now I think I'm finally able to face up to these things and trust my intuition again, but in a more mature fashion. It feels exciting and liberating and right. I feel whole again. It's cool.
 

fullerene

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thank you, both :)

brain... that's interesting, but yeah, sounds believable. Very intense, too. ...sorry about that.
 

Agent Intellect

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Here's the problem as I see it: It's impossible for someone that doesn't think a certain way to define how people that think that way think. Because of this, it's impossible for us to define the way in which we think, because we can never experience how it is to think any other way.

One thing i've noticed on this forum is that people tend to doubt their types a lot, to jump around to different types (i've seen people 'evolve' from INTP through up to four other types before). One thing i've also noticed about INTP's is that they tend to believe theories even more then solid facts (something i do quite often, myself). Everytime someone makes a post about some personality disorder or some such thing, a lot of people hop on the bandwagon saying "that sounds just like me!". This also seems to happen everytime another description of a type function gets posted (and i'm guilty of this myself).

While Ne is great for making people much more progressive thinking and open minded, I think it also has the weakness of fantastical thinking and confirmation bias even moreso then sensors have. New theories and novel ways of thinking about things are almost like a drug to us, possibilities and counterfactual thoughts being so seductive to us that we create models of the world that are based more on these theories then on things rooted in reality; such is the weakness of iNtuition compared to Sensing.

What Brain said about creating a fantasy world strikes very true to me, too. My mind is often having conversations with what i can only describe as imaginary friends, at imaginary events, doing things that haven't and probably never will happen, and yet this reality can sometimes seem just as convincing as the real one; at least its much more pleasant, anyway.

MBTI, while a helpful tool for understanding the differences of people, can be dangerous in the mind of an introspective and self seeking intuitive. Because we are so enthralled by theories, we grasp for which type describes us in a futile hope that it will bring us some insightful understanding of who we are and why we do the things we do. The problem is, the only way to describe ourselves is relative to those around us; how does my mind work compared to yours? How do my thought patterns differ from personality type X? Do I think the same way as Y or Z? How do I define myself as a component of greater society? Who do I fit in with?
 

Ermine

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That was a marvelous description of Ni. Beforehand, Ni tended to bring up images of seeing the future, vague mysticism, and making conclusions with no explanations. I can identify with that description almost as much as I do with Ne.

MBTI, while a helpful tool for understanding the differences of people, can be dangerous in the mind of an introspective and self seeking intuitive. Because we are so enthralled by theories, we grasp for which type describes us in a futile hope that it will bring us some insightful understanding of who we are and why we do the things we do. The problem is, the only way to describe ourselves is relative to those around us; how does my mind work compared to yours? How do my thought patterns differ from personality type X? Do I think the same way as Y or Z? How do I define myself as a component of greater society? Who do I fit in with?

Agh! Stop reading my mind! I've been thinking about this quite a bit, how much the MBTI is helping me, and how much is just false hopes about trying to understand myself better when only I can do that entirely. At the same time though, I hate to describe myself in relation to others though. It's like asking people to tell me what I look like when there isn't a mirror around, but harder.
 

Enne

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Aaaah I'm glad. I was thinking NF at least. I remember reading (somewhere) that NFs have a deep appreciation for SPs in the sense that they enjoy and to an extent envy that life philosophy of being absorbed in the moment, saturating the senses. Also, I feel that anyone that deep into the Jungian jungle might have some serious Fi or Ni that they needed to sort out.

B-) Congrats? Glad you're back.
 

Beat Mango

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Agh! Stop reading my mind! I've been thinking about this quite a bit, how much the MBTI is helping me, and how much is just false hopes about trying to understand myself better when only I can do that entirely. At the same time though, I hate to describe myself in relation to others though. It's like asking people to tell me what I look like when there isn't a mirror around, but harder.

Honestly, Razare is right - the ennegream is better for improving life satisfaction than MBTI, which really, for INTPs in particular, can provide little more than a bottomless pit for introspection.

I only read the tiniest of blurbs about the type 5 personality cycle on 9types.com, how to avoid a negative cycle, and it hit me like a ton of bricks.
 

Anthile

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Here's the problem as I see it: It's impossible for someone that doesn't think a certain way to define how people that think that way think. Because of this, it's impossible for us to define the way in which we think, because we can never experience how it is to think any other way.

One thing i've noticed on this forum is that people tend to doubt their types a lot, to jump around to different types (i've seen people 'evolve' from INTP through up to four other types before). One thing i've also noticed about INTP's is that they tend to believe theories even more then solid facts (something i do quite often, myself). Everytime someone makes a post about some personality disorder or some such thing, a lot of people hop on the bandwagon saying "that sounds just like me!". This also seems to happen everytime another description of a type function gets posted (and i'm guilty of this myself).

While Ne is great for making people much more progressive thinking and open minded, I think it also has the weakness of fantastical thinking and confirmation bias even moreso then sensors have. New theories and novel ways of thinking about things are almost like a drug to us, possibilities and counterfactual thoughts being so seductive to us that we create models of the world that are based more on these theories then on things rooted in reality; such is the weakness of iNtuition compared to Sensing.

What Brain said about creating a fantasy world strikes very true to me, too. My mind is often having conversations with what i can only describe as imaginary friends, at imaginary events, doing things that haven't and probably never will happen, and yet this reality can sometimes seem just as convincing as the real one; at least its much more pleasant, anyway.

MBTI, while a helpful tool for understanding the differences of people, can be dangerous in the mind of an introspective and self seeking intuitive. Because we are so enthralled by theories, we grasp for which type describes us in a futile hope that it will bring us some insightful understanding of who we are and why we do the things we do. The problem is, the only way to describe ourselves is relative to those around us; how does my mind work compared to yours? How do my thought patterns differ from personality type X? Do I think the same way as Y or Z? How do I define myself as a component of greater society? Who do I fit in with?



My thoughts exactly. I wanted to measure this and that's why I created this survey recently.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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Enne, do you say the thing about SP because I'm married to one? If you do, in fact, remember that, (or did you look at my profile conversation with truthseeker?) I am impressed.

I think that's something, also, which had me leaning toward T. I'm married to such an F (100% on the test he took), not to mention that as an Extrovert and an S, I think F displays itself in such a different way. Much more obvious and straightforward, while my F is a little more constrained and subtle.

'Deep into the Jungian jungle'- ha ha, no shit. :)

But the thing is, now, now that I have it figured out, I'm not feeling much of a need for it anymore (MBTI). I feel like I'm finally ready to move on with my life and accomplish other things... which, as much as I respect what you say, Agent Intellect, and to an extent, agree (and will probably be repeating what you already said :o), I think the restlessness/obsession with the MBTI that some display can stem from the fact that whatever those people tested as (eg, me) doesn't necessarily fit, so those people dig deeper and deeper and find whatever they can identify with in order for it to make sense. And of course if you are a person who always looks for a subtext, a broad understanding and gets off on theories (in other words, an "N"), then sure you are going to spend way more time thinking about the MBTI than someone like, say, my ESFP husband who could care less.

Which leads me to something else... I see a lot of 'INTP' categorization of behavior/thought on here... 'we, as INTPs, behave this way/think this way'... when I think a large percentage of what people identify with on here merely has to do with being an intuitive (Ne and Ni) or an introvert... or a thinker or a perceiver... or some other aspect of it... vs the whole package, and that's what can be confusing. I think it's human nature to latch onto the commonality vs the difference, so if you have tested as, for example, an INTP (and the tests are seriously inaccurate, imo, they serve little purpose other than as a general guideline) and you go to any description, any forum about INTP, you are far more likely to notice those things you relate to instead of the areas in which you differ, or determine the aspects in which you are unlike the type as 'inconsequential', or maybe you aren't understanding it fully, maybe you truly are more objective than you thought, more detached, whatever. I know I did this anyway, so I imagine others do as well.
 

fullerene

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in short, confirmation bias?

yeah, I think a little. You're definitely, definitely right about taking N-characteristics and calling them INTP ones, and stuff like that... but I think(?) most of the threads I see people doing stuff like that in are ones when people of other types ask for advice on how to deal with their INTP. If you take N-characteristics and say "we all tend to do this," isn't it equally valid advice for the person?

I dunno, I'm having a hard time keeping up with all the threads recently, so I may just be wrong about the context of the things you're talking about.
 

Enne

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@brain: I remember reading that in another thread some time (weeks?) ago. It reminded me of an article that talked about possible pairings across the S/N divide. NFs admire SPs for their embracement of the present (Hemmingway is an ESTP, yes?), and NTs can grow to appreciate the systemization and organized nature of SJs, probably as a nice thing to come back to after a brief respite of theorizing away in the clouds.

On a side note I think that getting your MBTI type right (especially if you've a strong N) can help people 'release' the concept. I experienced more or less the same when I started wondering whether I was really an ENTP. I find that while isolation is helpful for categorization and deeper understanding, too much with me can actually polarize my views. Oo
 
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