Visual Thinking

[Nyxie]

i often become very frustrated when attempting to explain an idea, because while i can quite literally "see" it in my head, i can't sufficiently put it into words when trying to explain it. i was laying in bed last night thinking, as i often do, and was trying to conceive of a way that i might make an idea something concrete, and i did, but i forgot. woe is me.

i would of course have to explain it, because simply looking at it i'm sure people would think "what the hell is THAT". the closest metaphor i can come to is having several windows open in minimalized view on your computer desktop at the same time, all relating to the same thing, so that you could look at all of them all at once. not like a grid format where they're next to each other, because in that case you have to switch focus from one to the next.

it's all entirely too complicated to explain sufficiently; i'm already getting frustrated, because reading back over what i've typed so far, it hardly comes close to being fully accurate. and that's not even mentioning the web effect of the connections one single thought has.

grr... does anyone relate to this? few people seem to understand what it really means to "see" your ideas as you think them, to be able to just... look at them.

 

[bloozie]

Yeah, I run into this quite often. I think the best solution.. for me.. is to sketch out whatever you're thinking about. See what happens.

 

[Nyxie]

the problem is that while yeah, i can see it, it's still very abstract. while i've tried, the very act of doing so seems to change it.

 

[bloozie]

Hehe, that happens to me as well. But then the great thing about that is that your initial idea can go off in tangents and you can essential end up with a much better idea... or an extremely awkward idea and a confused person.
I wonder what could be an efficient way of taking a "photo" of our visual thoughts instantly without having to worry about losing a bit of information whilst transcribing that said information into a physical or verbal form toward our external world.
Perhaps some of our ideas shouldn't be shared but then mulled over, rehashed, until we can figure out a viable way of interpreting that said idea in layman's terms for people to understand easily.

 

[Nyxie]

that's the normal method.

but normal is so boring, isn't it?

 

[universe34]

Hmm...I can think visually, but it's not my natural process. I tend to think in words.

 

[Minuend]

It's the same with me. And if I have "conversations" about a topic in my mind, I've usually finished the train of thought long before I'm done "talking" about it. Sometimes I can easily see a long string of connections, and I see this connection as quite obvious. Explaining it is somewhat tiresome because it's "obvious". And it's hard putting together the words needed for explaining it as clearly as I see it.

 

[typus]

That's language for you!

 

[Latro]

I generally think directly in words, and have managed to think directly in a foreign language on an occasion or two (this was on irc, and the experience of going back and forth between English and this language (there were two conversations going on) is a very unpleasant one). Still, my suggestion is to try foreign languages. If you have to translate from concepts/visual things to words, it may help to have different targets that you can translate to. Doing this (this is strictly my theory, btw, not based on anything) may allow you to develop a kind of "intermediate mental language" which is more powerful than English alone, which you then use to translate to English.

tl;dr: Try studying a foreign language or two.

 

[bloozie]

that's the normal method.

but normal is so boring, isn't it?

No, it's frustrating.

 

[archimonde]

i often become very frustrated when attempting to explain an idea, because while i can quite literally "see" it in my head, i can't sufficiently put it into words when trying to explain it. i was laying in bed last night thinking, as i often do, and was trying to conceive of a way that i might make an idea something concrete, and i did, but i forgot. woe is me.

grr... does anyone relate to this? few people seem to understand what it really means to "see" your ideas as you think them, to be able to just... look at them.

For me, often, my language faculty cannot keep up with my ideas faculty. So what ends up happening is, I may have the answer, but it will take me awhile to put it into words. Like, I know the image or the whole picture but now I have to assemble it like a jigsaw puzzle (with each puzzle pieces being words) to make it into a coherent and tangible form. I often feel like my language part is often so slow compared to visual part, that ideas often get stored in a temporary buffer zone as I turn it into words, and often the ideas get lost in the buffer before it is finalized into words. It's not that different than say on a slow computer, where you are tying really really fast, and at certain point, you have to wait for the computer to catch up what you were typing. Except instead of text, my mind is 'typing' images. And the RAM is corrupt so not all the ideas come through.

I have no idea what i am talking about...

 

[Nyxie]

It's the same with me. And if I have "conversations" about a topic in my mind, I've usually finished the train of thought long before I'm done "talking" about it. Sometimes I can easily see a long string of connections, and I see this connection as quite obvious. Explaining it is somewhat tiresome because it's "obvious". And it's hard putting together the words needed for explaining it as clearly as I see it.

do you ever find yourself whispering your thoughts aloud to yourself when you're alone? it's like the subconscious process that keeps that in check when people are around is turned off when i'm alone, i'm just too absorbed in what i'm thinking to really notice that i'm actually saying a lot of it, particularly when i'm imagining a conversation... the same happens when i type. :/

 

[Nyxie]

I generally think directly in words, and have managed to think directly in a foreign language on an occasion or two (this was on irc, and the experience of going back and forth between English and this language (there were two conversations going on) is a very unpleasant one). Still, my suggestion is to try foreign languages. If you have to translate from concepts/visual things to words, it may help to have different targets that you can translate to. Doing this (this is strictly my theory, btw, not based on anything) may allow you to develop a kind of "intermediate mental language" which is more powerful than English alone, which you then use to translate to English.

tl;dr: Try studying a foreign language or two.

i don't think in words unless my mode of thinking is specifically directed toward communication in some manner. if i'm just thinking, aka daydreaming, translating my idea into words is... a challenge.

 

[Synthesis]

I can relate heartily to the OP as well. Minuend's post described it perfectly, in my case at least. When trying to relate the ideas into a form of language, I've found that (for me, obviously) it becomes easier if I can associate idea A with some form of abstract language (figurative language; i.e metaphors, similes, personification, et cetera) and use that form of the idea to relate the idea with others. Granted, it can get exceedingly frustrating at times. Good luck

 

[Nyxie]

metaphors are my BFF.

 

[Synthesis]

Have a party then, invite a few of them over...you might be suprised at what you get. Have fun

 

[Silas]

I can relate to everything said, though I may add that sometimes I think wonderful things with words accompanying the visuals, but when I try to make these words manifest on paper/verbally, the chain of language is cut, and they slide down the rabbit hole...

 

[Minuend]

Aha! I finally found the thread I had written in!

do you ever find yourself whispering your thoughts aloud to yourself when you're alone? it's like the subconscious process that keeps that in check when people are around is turned off when i'm alone, i'm just too absorbed in what i'm thinking to really notice that i'm actually saying a lot of it, particularly when i'm imagining a conversation... the same happens when i type. :/

I don't, actually. I think that would be even slower than talking in my head. When I'm alone, I only speak when talking to my cats or swearing as I slam my knee into the coffee table. I have a lot of bruises on my legs, I seem to hit anything<-----bahaha, I just realized what I wrote.

 

[nexion]

i often become very frustrated when attempting to explain an idea, because while i can quite literally "see" it in my head, i can't sufficiently put it into words when trying to explain it. i was laying in bed last night thinking, as i often do, and was trying to conceive of a way that i might make an idea something concrete, and i did, but i forgot. woe is me.

i would of course have to explain it, because simply looking at it i'm sure people would think "what the hell is THAT". the closest metaphor i can come to is having several windows open in minimalized view on your computer desktop at the same time, all relating to the same thing, so that you could look at all of them all at once. not like a grid format where they're next to each other, because in that case you have to switch focus from one to the next.

it's all entirely too complicated to explain sufficiently; i'm already getting frustrated, because reading back over what i've typed so far, it hardly comes close to being fully accurate. and that's not even mentioning the web effect of the connections one single thought has.

grr... does anyone relate to this? few people seem to understand what it really means to "see" your ideas as you think them, to be able to just... look at them.

I don't think this has anything to do with being able to visually think something rather than think in words, but rather an NP tendency intuitively "see" the big idea of something without being able to explain it. This has happened to me many times, where I perfectly understood something incredibly complex or deep but could not explain it to others. On this forum many times, in fact. I think it also has to do with words being utterly obsolete and unable to describe in any way the thoughts within one's head.

 

[₲uardian]

I too am a highly spatial thinker

 

[AnExperimentalTom]

When confronted with a new situation I will find myself more inclined to think with words, as I assume this is my natural thinking pattern. However because of my dyslexia, and the effect it has on my working memory (short term memory) I've over the years trained myself to use an extremely visual way of thinking.

As I'm learning something (which can be a very long drawn out process... with all the said memory problems) I tend to form abstract images and ideas in my head to link to the concrete ideas and words that I learn.

I find that visual ideas take up "less room" in my memory that words etc and make it easier for me to juggle several things around at once allowing me to do more. However I have found drawbacks to it, that if two things are very closely linked and thus form similar abstractions in my minds eye, I'll end up going off on a tangent in my head, to the point where an essay for uni may turn in to a short story or plans for something I'd like to try out.

 

[Sekzwee]

i tend to have discussions with myself in words. ideas come in a combination of visuals and a discussion about it and the morning after leaves me feeling used and depressed because i cant remember what my great idea was, as if i was just some random container used to store the pertinent information before it passed on to someone with better skills in communicating and recording their thoughs.

 

[jacobfake]

I have no idea how I could express my constant inner dialogue without words, and this makes me somewhat jealous of you picture-thinkers because I'm afraid that most of my entire consciousness could not have existed before the english language. If I had been isolated at birth from any language to speak, would I even be conscious of my actions?

Does picture thinking = good at drawing? I would assume not always because that would make like at least a third of people good at drawing, but how is it that you could have a clear picture in your head and not be able to draw it?

 

[Sforza]

Does picture thinking = good at drawing? I would assume not always because that would make like at least a third of people good at drawing, but how is it that you could have a clear picture in your head and not be able to draw it?

I think when someone mentioned "drawing" earlier, they meant sketching it out in charts, diagrams, graphs, or similar methods. I know a few INTPs that aren't very good at drawing in the typical sense because they have difficulty implementing how their vision will look like due to the amount of concentration on tiny details that it requires.

Edit: From procrastinating/unwillingness to practice religiously/other assorted special interest reasons too.

 

[Sekzwee]

I have no idea how I could express my constant inner dialogue without words, and this makes me somewhat jealous of you picture-thinkers because I'm afraid that most of my entire consciousness could not have existed before the english language. If I had been isolated at birth from any language to speak, would I even be conscious of my actions?

Does picture thinking = good at drawing? I would assume not always because that would make like at least a third of people good at drawing, but how is it that you could have a clear picture in your head and not be able to draw it?

I'm good at drawing and painting, i dont think it has much to do with thinking visually i think it's a lot more to do with practice and motor skills. It's quite often annoying when someone tells me i'm talented since it neatly and completely glosses over the millions of hours of hard work and practice and knowledge gaining i've done over the years and hands my ability into the lap of the gods to either bestow or deny. I think visual thinking helps when you want to draw from imagination although its frustrating to try and make the image stay still while you draw it most of the time, but i'm still convinced all it takes is an interest in drawing and a lot of time spent practicing it.

 

[AnExperimentalTom]

I have no idea how I could express my constant inner dialogue without words, and this makes me somewhat jealous of you picture-thinkers because I'm afraid that most of my entire consciousness could not have existed before the english language. If I had been isolated at birth from any language to speak, would I even be conscious of my actions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

You would just basically grow up in the natural state for a human being, without having any of the "civilised" culture and language drilled in to you.

 

[bloozie]

I think when someone mentioned "drawing" earlier, they meant sketching it out in charts, diagrams, graphs, or similar methods. I know a few INTPs that aren't very good at drawing in the typical sense because they have difficulty implementing how their vision will look like due to the amount of concentration on tiny details that it requires.

Edit: From procrastinating/unwillingness to practice religiously/other assorted special interest reasons too.

My idea of sketching doesn't involve charts and graphs and all that junk. It really has to do with actually taking an image from my memory and translating that onto paper.

 

[bloozie]

I guess people here are a bit confused as to what Visual Thinking is. It's obviously going to be different for other people, but here is my take on it...

Whenever I'm caught up with a problem that involves my physical environment, I'm usually able to run through solutions in my mind with a static image or a group of images playing as if it were a short video clip. Basically, I could be standing and staring at something... looking as if I'm doing nothing, when I'm really visualizing different scenarios in my mind... essentially, my imagination goes on full throttle... I'm sure each of you guys have actually done this before without much thought, because I know I can't be the only one to do this.

This can also be the same for when someone else is talking to me. I'm able to imagine what they are talking about in my mind and sometimes they stop and ask if I'm listening to them and I have to force them to keep going just to keep the imagery fresh in my mind..

It would very much be the same for when I'm alone and I have no external environment to help me along. I essentially gather past experiences related to what I'm thinking about and be able to build and piece together a visual 3D Model/Environment in my mind. Sometimes I would actually visualize that thing right in front of me. For a model, I would be able to "physically" turn or move it around with my hands and then I would be able to interchange or interact with my visual environment.

That's what Visual Thinking is to me.

 

[typus]

It seems as if everyone says they think in 'pictures' or words, what's the deal here? I feel like I think in... well, thoughts, when I think about something I have to 'translate' it in to words if I want to express it, if I want to think in words I have to do it deliberately. And I definitely don't think in pictures, I have no idea what my ideas look like! And I mean, thinking in words sounds so unnatural, if people think in words, then how did we even get a language in the first place? Thinking in pictures sounds a bit better, but does this mean that blind people who can't speak any languages think in... random flashes of light?

 

[AnExperimentalTom]

I suppose those of us who think in words will think in our native tongue, and will probably grasp language and start talking pretty early (this is just an educated guess, so please correct me if I'm wrong in thinking this).

Although I tend to think in abstracted ideas after I've learnt things, I can as I'm learning think through things as if having a conversation on how it should be done in my head. This wordy thinking isn't limited to just English with me. I've been learning Japanese for the better part of a year or so and also find myself thinking in Japanese on some things. Hell I sometimes in even think in actual computer code (Not a good sign when a computer language feels more natural than your native tongue).

 

[Words]

It seems as if everyone says they think in 'pictures' or words, what's the deal here? I feel like I think in... well, thoughts, when I think about something I have to 'translate' it in to words if I want to express it, if I want to think in words I have to do it deliberately. And I definitely don't think in pictures, I have no idea what my ideas look like! And I mean, thinking in words sounds so unnatural, if people think in words, then how did we even get a language in the first place? Thinking in pictures sounds a bit better, but does this mean that blind people who can't speak any languages think in... random flashes of light?

I share the same thoughts. Thinking in ideas works more accurately for me. Words are way too external. I can forcefully visualize or produce a language in my head but it's really naturally just that raw version of "thought".

 

[nexion]

I have no idea how I could express my constant inner dialogue without words, and this makes me somewhat jealous of you picture-thinkers because I'm afraid that most of my entire consciousness could not have existed before the english language. If I had been isolated at birth from any language to speak, would I even be conscious of my actions?

Does picture thinking = good at drawing? I would assume not always because that would make like at least a third of people good at drawing, but how is it that you could have a clear picture in your head and not be able to draw it?

It has been proven that there is not a positive relation between knowing language and consciousness, except that consciousness allowed us to create languages.

As for picture drawing... I find it is not any easier to draw because I think 'visually' (even though I do not consider myself a bad artist)- the 'picture' one who thinks visually creates is not an actual concrete picture but rather the abstract idea of the 'big picture,' which is truthfully, to me, not a picture at all but rather a thought which cannot be described in words or pictures of how things within a highly complex system work together. Sometimes, though, I do think in literal pictures (mostly concept stuff) and even if I had the ability to draw these thoughts (my thoughts are extremely detailed and painstakingly crafted) the pure prospect of the hours of work involved would keep me from ever doing it.

 

[vavel7]

i often become very frustrated when attempting to explain an idea, because while i can quite literally "see" it in my head, i can't sufficiently put it into words when trying to explain it. i was laying in bed last night thinking, as i often do, and was trying to conceive of a way that i might make an idea something concrete, and i did, but i forgot. woe is me.

i would of course have to explain it, because simply looking at it i'm sure people would think "what the hell is THAT". the closest metaphor i can come to is having several windows open in minimalized view on your computer desktop at the same time, all relating to the same thing, so that you could look at all of them all at once. not like a grid format where they're next to each other, because in that case you have to switch focus from one to the next.

it's all entirely too complicated to explain sufficiently; i'm already getting frustrated, because reading back over what i've typed so far, it hardly comes close to being fully accurate. and that's not even mentioning the web effect of the connections one single thought has.

grr... does anyone relate to this? few people seem to understand what it really means to "see" your ideas as you think them, to be able to just... look at them.

Oh! Yes! I know exactly what you mean. Drawing them helps me and I'm auful at drawimg, I'm incapable of making a straight line... But by making this clumsy sketches somehow the images begin to fall into pieces, the words then are just words selected to describe them. I think they help me detach my self from my thought& their meaning by treating them as seperate entities. It gets a little or too much frustrating in the beginning but it always saves maanyy hous of introspection to be used to different streams of thinking.

 

[ememisya]

i often become very frustrated when attempting to explain an idea, because while i can quite literally "see" it in my head, i can't sufficiently put it into words when trying to explain it. i was laying in bed last night thinking, as i often do, and was trying to conceive of a way that i might make an idea something concrete, and i did, but i forgot. woe is me.

i would of course have to explain it, because simply looking at it i'm sure people would think "what the hell is THAT". the closest metaphor i can come to is having several windows open in minimalized view on your computer desktop at the same time, all relating to the same thing, so that you could look at all of them all at once. not like a grid format where they're next to each other, because in that case you have to switch focus from one to the next.

it's all entirely too complicated to explain sufficiently; i'm already getting frustrated, because reading back over what i've typed so far, it hardly comes close to being fully accurate. and that's not even mentioning the web effect of the connections one single thought has.

grr... does anyone relate to this? few people seem to understand what it really means to "see" your ideas as you think them, to be able to just... look at them.

I bet you while you are reading a book, at some point you don't see the words anymore, you are just watching the book.

Symmetry seems to make more sense to you than attached emotions and meanings to words.

Best way is to draw in my opinion. It's the universal language. It helped me quite a lot before I learned English as well.

 

[thexjib]

i often become very frustrated when attempting to explain an idea, because while i can quite literally "see" it in my head, i can't sufficiently put it into words when trying to explain it. i was laying in bed last night thinking, as i often do, and was trying to conceive of a way that i might make an idea something concrete, and i did, but i forgot. woe is me.

i would of course have to explain it, because simply looking at it i'm sure people would think "what the hell is THAT". the closest metaphor i can come to is having several windows open in minimalized view on your computer desktop at the same time, all relating to the same thing, so that you could look at all of them all at once. not like a grid format where they're next to each other, because in that case you have to switch focus from one to the next.

it's all entirely too complicated to explain sufficiently; i'm already getting frustrated, because reading back over what i've typed so far, it hardly comes close to being fully accurate. and that's not even mentioning the web effect of the connections one single thought has.

grr... does anyone relate to this? few people seem to understand what it really means to "see" your ideas as you think them, to be able to just... look at them.

I can relate very much. I think I am primarily a visual thinker. Sometimes it can take quite a bit of time to translate my thoughts into words. Once I have "translated" I feel much less nervousness because I fully comprehend my ideas/ thoughts verbally... but it is almost always visually first. Sometimes I have to talk to myself to get an idea into words...SO when people see me muttering to myself they think I'm weird...but whatever. I know what you mean when you say that you wish you could show someone your thoughts. The past few years I think I have been using my ability to mentally visualize well to my advantage... it helps in my job. It might also be a source for creative/ artistic inspiration.

 

[DesertSmeagle]

I relate to this. This is why without language, we would all be living in the rainforest, because it lets us share our ideas. Case study in that too. Lady trapped in attic all her life and cant use language and shes really fukin stupid and never learns to use language right.
But as you and me are visual thinkers, there are actaully 3 types of thinking types according to NLP..Look uo NLP, it will blow your mind...besides visual thinkers, you also have auditory and kinaesthetic..wht the fuk kinda word is kinaesthenic.,.. but auditory thinkers use sound to base their ideas and perception on and kinaeshithead thinkiers use motion and movement....look up NLP. everyone here...so interesting...It basically adds hynosis to communication and allows you to hack your and other peoples minds.. Here as an example of associating .....shit haha Irony once more!! i cant explain what anchoring is in nlp haha here watch this video. It has to do with anchoring..Anchoring associates a thought or emotion with an outside force. When that outside force happens, the emotion thought or feeling associated with the outside force happen in your brain...its all about conditioned and unconditioned stimuli and responses..But noone knows anything about psychology so i cant use terms to explain myself..
YouTube- Derren Brown NLP Swish Pattern
See how he touches her shoulders when hes showing her the color cards? thats the thing that the thought was associated with..When he touched her shoulders, the colors in her head mixed up, and now she percieves re as black, and yellow as red.

 

[mke2686]

hmmm i instantly thought of the function on a tv (picture in picture)
witch is kinda how i think. ill have a main topic im thinking about thenn ill jump to something thats somewhat relevant and when i think i fully understand the concept ill take it and combine it with the original thought...

 

[mke2686]

It seems as if everyone says they think in 'pictures' or words, what's the deal here? I feel like I think in... well, thoughts, when I think about something I have to 'translate' it in to words if I want to express it, if I want to think in words I have to do it deliberately. And I definitely don't think in pictures, I have no idea what my ideas look like! And I mean, thinking in words sounds so unnatural, if people think in words, then how did we even get a language in the first place? Thinking in pictures sounds a bit better, but does this mean that blind people who can't speak any languages think in... random flashes of light?

i think that would depend on if the person was born blind or became blind later in life

 

[Plumbata]

Nice thread!

I too often have difficulty translating the mental imagery into spoken language, often because the thoughts are broad and encompass many necessary explanatory units of information not easily presented extemporaneously or briefly during conversation.

In regards to the manner one thinks, while alone and not bound to any social concerns, I think in full color video with highly detailed real-world imagery and when necessary, with more abstract visual and physical symbolism peppered in, all conforming to the laws which guide the physics of one's waking conscious experience albeit at a faster pace. I feel the physical forces and am in tune with the known properties and mechanics of the visually represented components of the mental environment, neither needing nor desiring words or any other artificial language to mediate between myself and the raw information that I am toying with.

My mentation involves no words at all when I am alone and not reading or thinking about interaction with other people. Usually I see myself in thought as I do in person (through these here inquisitive eyeballs), and am always interacting with the mental world while also doing something else, often unrelated, in the external world. Earlier today while preparing with HCL a nice specimen of a coral fossil found a few days ago I was experiencing the chemical and physical process unfolding before me, while perfectly linked with my past experiences involving and thoughts while preparing carbonate fossils, my current expectations, the analysis of the choice of my container and acid dilution, the stinging of the hcl which sparked a visualization of the process by which HF enters the blood and wreaks havoc on ones system and the satisfaction in knowing the sting would be the worst result of HCL exposure, the life of the polyp colonies which created and then left behind the structures to be fossilized and then discovered nearly 400 million years later, the visual imaginings of the glacial processes which created the excellent form of the stone, the heavy equipment which caused the superficial chipping, etc., etc. All this and more during about 2 minutes of manipulating and carefully observing the specimen. Contemplating with a visuo-kinisthetic foundation upon which one builds far more complex and organized systems of thought makes it appreciably easier to access information quickly, though not necessarily to express it.

When people talk with me, I must actively visualize what I intuit as both the greater meaning and the supporting events behind the words which are being communicated in a dynamic 3-d context in order to understand. I am weird with hearing spoken language and it can take me a half second or more to process a spoken thought which I am not in the proper mindset to fluidly mesh with the current mental landscape, and will almost reflexively exclaim "what the 'ell did'jou say?!" before the jumbled auditory information takes a shape I fully understand. Words are of no personal utility in terms of encoding the raw data, unless it is a class of information or experience which absolutely requires the use of language. Back-translation for the benefit of others generally takes more effort and leaves out much valuable information, unfortunately.

When reading, the words are translated into a crystal-clear and highly detailed video, or string of dynamic images anchored in memory to other bits of similarly encoded information, at least while the topic being read is captivating enough to demand focused attention. When repeating noteworthy quotes, which are encoded visually, they must then be translated back into words before being shared with others.

When re-watching movies that haven't been seen in years I wonder where my favorite parts of the movie are, and then I realize that those most vivid memories of the movie are the result of the translation and encoding of potent or poignant spoken language into a vivid visual scene, often more memorable than the ones actually presented. 12 angry men is a particularly good example of this, as well as the Indiana Jones trilogy (never seen the 4th and never care to read or know much of anything about it, lest it spoil the pure appreciation of some of my favorite childhood movies).


Words, tactile experiences, and interpersonal events for all of you are certainly not much more than mere triggers of far greater internal personal understanding, regardless of the internal language with which it is encoded. I find it interesting how the variegated people of this forum operate, and are drawn together out of the need for personal understanding, learning, and the general satisfaction of niche-curiosities due to certain shared personality traits.