Understanding NI

[Logic]

Well i have a better understanding of Ni but i would still like to get some more information on it, such as when one is recognizing it and is using it and maybe some activities to help it come out, and some real life situations when it comes into being and what kind of experiance it is like engaging in it, to just help define it more clearly.

 

[Anthile]

Ni is like porn, you recognize it when you see it.

 

[BigApplePi]

Well i have a better understanding of Ni but i would still like to get some more information on it, such as when one is recognizing it and is using it and maybe some activities to help it come out, and some real life situations when it comes into being and what kind of experiance it is like engaging in it, to just help define it more clearly.

You're not alone in that Sir Logic. Outside sources say Ni is introverted and intuitive -- but that's not very profound.

Take a look at what Anthile said,

"Ni is like porn, you recognize it when you see it."

Could THAT be Ni? It's introverted as it came from what was inside Anthile's head. It's subjective as we don't know what it means -- or I sure as hell don't. It's intuitive as it grabs you all at once (porn). It puts together porn and Ni by proposing a common outlook without explaining anything. It lays open the possibility for thoughtful analysis without giving any. It implies a truth you must discover only within yourself.

As an INTP, I hate it because I can't sit with a statement like that. Adymus says INTP's don't have access to Ni. Do we have access to what is revolting? INTP's are Ne oriented. I suspect there is truth in that. Ni people live Ni. They toss it around with an ownership like it belongs.

Anthile's statement still bothers me. I don't recognize porn at all (what it is and what it is not) as I dislike it's subjectivity, but I still have to admire Anthile from a distance.

 

[Maverick]

You're not alone in that Sir Logic. Outside sources say Ni is introverted and intuitive -- but that's not very profound.

Take a look at what Anthile said,

"Ni is like porn, you recognize it when you see it."

Could THAT be Ni? It's introverted as it came from what was inside Anthile's head. It's subjective as we don't know what it means -- or I sure as hell don't. It's intuitive as it grabs you all at once (porn). It puts together porn and Ni by proposing a common outlook without explaining anything. It lays open the possibility for thoughtful analysis without giving any. It implies a truth you must discover only within yourself.

As an INTP, I hate it because I can't sit with a statement like that. Adymus says INTP's don't have access to Ni. Do we have access to what is revolting? INTP's are Ne oriented. I suspect there is truth in that. Ni people live Ni. They toss it around with an ownership like it belongs.

Anthile's statement still bothers me. I don't recognize porn at all (what it is and what it is not) as I dislike it's subjectivity, but I still have to admire Anthile from a distance.

I was having trouble to understand Ni but I guess I won't anymore.
No definition or analysis could help me understand this function better.
thanks to BigApplePi and of course Anthile.
this thread should be emblazoned.

Your function/s complement/s each other.

 

[Adymus]

 

[BigApplePi]

Adymus. Still working on finals???

 

[Logic]

Ni is like porn, you recognize it when you see it.

I dont think its appropriate for you to talk about porn to get your point across, and i dont find it to be humorous either, I would appreciate it if i got some real answers from a more mature audience.

 

[BigApplePi]

I dont think its appropriate for you to talk about porn to get your point across, and i dont find it to be humorous either, I would appreciate it if i got some real answers from a more mature audience.

Logic. I think Anthile was talking about something that people can't get a hold of to define objectively in words, yet internally, intuitively it is supposed they know what it is. His was an example often given to note the nature of intuition, not the specific example itself. My memory says it is a quote from a Supreme Court justice but I could be wrong. I personally didn't take it as humorous, but a perfect presentation of what you were after.

 

[Logic]

I appreciate your guys help in trying to clarify Ni, but i think in order for me to understand it more it should be put into a real life situation, like today i was with my dad who is an INFJ and we were just driving to get to Home Depot to get various items, and along the drive there my dad and i saw this old man driving in his Ferrari. So we just started talking about him. ( neither one of us knew anything about the man ) my dad made a judgment about him by saying that he was always interested in trying to get himself that car while he was young, and he finally achieved his goal but at such an advanced age ( based on how he looked ). Now don't get me wrong, my dad always makes these kinds of judgments but this time i called him out on it, ( now i believe i used Ti/Ne for this ) So... basically i said that we have absolutely no idea whether or not he really owns that car, ( might be his sons or friends or whoever ) , we dont know if he really bought it at such an age ( maybe he bought it earlier, however the car model looked new ) , and we don't really know how much the car was worth and how much he payed for it ( if he paid for it at all ) and i can go on and on here... but i think you get my point. So if you guys can maybe give me some ideas here and try coming up with a situation where Ni is really being used and try explaining it in as much detail as possible and if you think you can explain my car ride story then that would be great too.

 

[BigApplePi]

Logic, it's late and my mind is tired. Would you be so kind as to clarify the "he's"?

So we just started talking about him. ( neither one of us knew anything about the man ) my dad made a judgment about him by saying that he was always interested in trying to get himself that car while he was young, and he finally achieved his goal but at such an advanced age ( based on how he looked ). They are ambiguous to me.

 

[Logic]

Logic, it's late and my mind is tired. Would you be so kind as to clarify the "he's"?

So we just started talking about him. ( neither one of us knew anything about the man ) my dad made a judgment about him by saying that he was always interested in trying to get himself that car while he was young, and he finally achieved his goal but at such an advanced age ( based on how he looked ). They are ambiguous to me.

I think you mean the old man driving the car when i say "he" im referring to him.
my dad just came up with this story out of his own imagination ... the story being that the old man wanted to buy the car when he was younger but didn't until later.... , which.... to me sounds like just one possible theory but there is not enough information to make that decision so... confidently like the way my dad made it, which i thought was kind of like gambling.

 

[BigApplePi]

I'm not sure this is a story JUST about cognitive functions and personality types. Your father is close to you. He feels something. You are intellectually correct but feeling not. As an INTP you believe you are contributing but that isn't where your father is at.

I don't know. Maybe your father is using Fi and this isn't a case of Ni. Just a guess.

 

[Logic]

I'm not sure this is a story JUST about cognitive functions and personality types. Your father is close to you. He feels something. You are intellectually correct but feeling not. As an INTP you believe you are contributing but that isn't where your father is at.

I don't know. Maybe your father is using Fi and this isn't a case of Ni. Just a guess.

I also thought that this may not be about personality types as well, I thought maybe my dad may just be making an educated guess, but to me it seems more then that to him because if i ever say hes wrong then he always disagrees with me, but since his Ni is stronger then his Fe he cant help but say such things even if he may realize that it irks me, to me it seems that Ni is trying to be smart by making this assumption which to me just seems like one possible outcome compared to many ( Ne ) and because its behaving like this it seems kind of arrogant to me which is what im having trouble with.

I may not be feeling 100% with any of my theories, but thats to be expected since its not possible to just accept one idea over all other possibilities when the other possibilities may also be theoretically possible.-- I do however dont entirely understand what you mean by when you say that im not at where my dad is at. I do feel as though im contributing since im providing alternative theories but my dad may not think so?

Is there maybe a way you could come up with a story of your own ( made up or not ) where Ni is being used and kind of go through it step by step if possible involving a situation where Ni would maybe thrive, more so then any other function. thanks.

 

[Adymus]

I'm not sure this is a story JUST about cognitive functions and personality types. Your father is close to you. He feels something. You are intellectually correct but feeling not. As an INTP you believe you are contributing but that isn't where your father is at.

I don't know. Maybe your father is using Fi and this isn't a case of Ni. Just a guess.

How does this even make sense?

Fi is not a perception function, you can't use Fi to gain a bunch of subjective information about something like Logic's dad did. (Unless you used Fi in conjunction with a perception function, like Ne. But this sounds like typical Ni to me)

Plus, if he is an INFJ then using Fi is obviously not a possibility.

 

[Adymus]

I also thought that this may not be about personality types as well, I thought maybe my dad may just be making an educated guess, but to me it seems more then that to him because if i ever say hes wrong then he always disagrees with me, but since his Ni is stronger then his Fe he cant help but say such things even if he may realize that it irks me, to me it seems that Ni is trying to be smart by making this assumption which to me just seems like one possible outcome compared to many ( Ne ) and because its behaving like this it seems kind of arrogant to me which is what im having trouble with.

I may not be feeling 100% with any of my theories, but that's to be expected since its not possible to just accept one idea over all other possibilities when the other possibilities may also be theoretically possible.-- I do however don't entirely understand what you mean by when you say that im not at where my dad is at. I do feel as though im contributing since im providing alternative theories but my dad may not think so?

Is there maybe a way you could come up with a story of your own ( made up or not ) where Ni is being used and kind of go through it step by step if possible involving a situation where Ni would maybe thrive, more so then any other function. thanks.

Alright I've avoided this thread long enough.

Your dad did make an educated guess, an educated guess using Ni.

He is just doing what he is built to do naturally. Ni does not simply pull stories or information out of it's ass, it has an entire life of experience and observation behind it. Similar to the way Si is a worldview made up of a collective bank of historic and experiential details, Ni is a worldview made up of a collective bank of patterns. This creates a subjective understanding of natural law that you are not going to be aware of. What your dad saw was a pattern that his Ni had seen before, and he used that to speculate what this guy's story was.
In fact, there is often such a massive amount of information behind that Ni leap that the Ni user will be reluctant to explain why they came to that conclusion, just because of how much energy it is going to take to explain all of it.

Your biggest complaint seems to be, "Why is Ni not open to possibilities?" Because it's not Ne, it's Ni. Ni is a function that provides the user subjective information, specifically future based patterns of how the world (or natural law) works. Ni is not looking for objective information like Ne is, it is not concerned with possibilities, it is concerned with the answer, very much like how your Si works.

This is by no means a shallow process however, Ni undergoes a series of perspective shifts until it can see a pattern in such a way that it can find it's underlying universal truths. Sure, your dad could be wrong, but he could also be right, don't think that just because you don't understand how he came to that conclusion means that he can't be right. Ni is after all subjective, and subjective should not be synonymous with "wrong".

 

[Logic]

Alright I've avoided this thread long enough.

Your dad did make an educated guess, an educated guess using Ni.

He is just doing what he is built to do naturally. Ni does not simply pull stories or information out of it's ass, it has an entire life of experience and observation behind it. Similar to the way Si is a worldview made up of a collective bank of historic and experiential details, Ni is a worldview made up of a collective bank of patterns. This creates a subjective understanding of natural law that you are not going to be aware of. What your dad saw was a pattern that his Ni had seen before, and he used that to speculate what this guy's story was.
In fact, there is often such a massive amount of information behind that Ni leap that the Ni user will be reluctant to explain why they came to that conclusion, just because of how much energy it is going to take to explain all of it.

Your biggest complaint seems to be, "Why is Ni not open to possibilities?" Because it's not Ne, it's Ni. Ni is a function that provides the user subjective information, specifically future based patterns of how the world (or natural law) works. Ni is not looking for objective information like Ne is, it is not concerned with possibilities, it is concerned with the answer, very much like how your Si works.

This is by no means a shallow process however, Ni undergoes a series of perspective shifts until it can see a pattern in such a way that it can find it's underlying universal truths. Sure, your dad could be wrong, but he could also be right, don't think that just because you don't understand how he came to that conclusion means that he can't be right. Ni is after all subjective, and subjective should not be synonymous with "wrong".

Thanks first of all for giving a very nice answer, one that i was expecting for a while now ( no offense to the others on this site )

so let me get this straight... Ni functions by coming up with conclusions based on the patterns it notices during life and believing them and/or acting on them, whether they make sense logically or not is not important to Ni. So my dad may have noticed that people who wanted to have nice cars didnt get them until their later years. So my dad noticed this pattern and came up with his story ... but if that is true then it doesn't seem to me as though Ni is difficult in explaining, what i mean is ... my dad could have just said that he noticed a pattern, but me being a Dominant thinker would have said that it may or may not be true but my dad because he is intuitive would still believe what he believed because it seems too true to ignore? ( his intuition is strongly suggesting that it is true ) if that is all true then the question is whether or not intuition is an acceptable way in making decisions giving the idea that it may be wrong.. and if it is possible could it be developed in a way somehow to become more right then wrong in its judgments. ( I believe this is possible, but the question is how )

OK. you also made a kind of comparison between Si and Ni.

So from what i can understand Ni is having to deal with patterns that it notices and the person that notices them gets a kind of impression from them relating to the past and future

Si is remembering experiences based on the 5 senses and using them as a reference.

I think im starting to get it, but Si and Ni seem similar in a way. Any ideas on how they are and aren't?

from the picture im starting to draw here....

Si is a collection of remembered history of experiences ( 5 senses )
Ni is a collection of remembered history of patterns ( 6th sense )

am i right here?

 

[Adymus]

Thanks first of all for giving a very nice answer, one that i was expecting for a while now ( no offense to the others on this site )

so let me get this straight... Ni functions by coming up with conclusions based on the patterns it notices during life and believing them and/or acting on them, whether they make sense logically or not is not important to Ni.
So my dad may have noticed that people who wanted to have nice cars didnt get them until their later years. So my dad noticed this pattern and came up with his story ... but if that is true then it doesn't seem to me as though Ni is difficult in explaining, what i mean is ... my dad could have just said that he noticed a pattern, but me being a Dominant thinker would have said that it may or may not be true but my dad because he is intuitive would still believe what he believed because it seems too true to ignore? ( his intuition is strongly suggesting that it is true )

First thing to note is that Ni does not draw conclusions, it simply provides information, drawing conclusions is the job of his Fe and/or Ti. And no, it is not neccesarily something as litteral as "He saw it happen before", you are confusing it with your own worldview (Si). A Pattern can occur in more ways than simply the same thing happening twice, Ni could apply a pattern in something that has absolutely nothing to do with an old man and his car, which is why it seems like it can be contradictory and paradoxical. What you saw happen contained two things, literal information (A symbol if you will) and interpretive information.

Logic is not important to Ni for the same reason it is not important to Si. When you see something happen, it does not matter if you don't understand how it happened, you can still be certain that it did indeed happen. Well Ni is similar.
The only difference is that it notes how certain patterns work in the world and then when it sees these patterns occur again (Not necessarily by repeating the exact same event), they can be certain that they are seeing the same pattern they saw before and can interpret it.

The literal information was: The old man is driving a Ferrari
The Interpretive information was: The old man in the Ferrari's is symbolic of a natural pattern of the elderly wanting to feel young again by engaging in various activities.

Don't try to understand exactly what your dad was thinking and seeing, because you have no idea how he came to that conclusion, maybe it was simple, maybe it was complex, who knows. Either way, Ni is not something easy to explain to people, and they sometimes avoid it because they are not confident that they will give their explanation any justice, especially if their Ti is not very well developed.
You would not jump to such a conclusion simply because you are a dominant thinker, it is because 1.) Your Ne is higher than your Si, and 2.) Your Si is not one of your comfortable functions, so you don't have as much confidence in making such an absolute statement (but that does not mean we are incapable of it, we do it all of the time in many other contexts.) You might see Si dominants or Si Auxiliaries make similar statements. Actually, you might also see INTPs with very well developed Si make similar statements.

if that is all true then the question is whether or not intuition is an acceptable way in making decisions giving the idea that it may be wrong..
and if it is possible could it be developed in a way somehow to become more right then wrong in its judgments. ( I believe this is possible, but the question is how )

Again, Ni does not make decisions, but if you are asking if it is an acceptable source to base decisions off of, then my answer is "Hell yes."
Everything could be wrong, even empirical evidence can be wrong if it is not being interpreted correctly. Since you are an INTP, you are looking at this from the perspective that you hold: we should be afraid that we are not right. An Ni dominant is going to be the most confident and comfortable with their Ni, so that fear of being wrong is probably not really something that they are going to have. However, we are actually not so different.

An INTP will analyze information and take in as many observations and principals as possible. What this does is expand our Si worldview of how something works until we are comfortable with drawing a conclusion on it. Well consider this: what if you are already familiar with exactly how something works (Ie: it already exists in your Si worldview), are you going to feel like you need to spend time analyzing it all over again, or are you just going to draw a quick conclusion?
Well this is similar to the perspective of the Ni dominant, they already have an idea of what is happening.
True, they have potential for error, but they also have the potential to see things that are light years beyond anyone else in that Ni of theirs. Being confident in their worldview is not something that makes them weaker. However, it is most optimal when they develop their Fe, Ti and their Se, which allows them to see a much more realistic picture in their Ni, and then make logical and practical sense of it.

OK. you also made a kind of comparison between Si and Ni.

So from what i can understand Ni is having to deal with patterns that it notices and the person that notices them gets a kind of impression from them relating to the past and future

Si is remembering experiences based on the 5 senses and using them as a reference.

I think im starting to get it, but Si and Ni seem similar in a way. Any ideas on how they are and aren't?

from the picture im starting to draw here....

Si is a collection of remembered history of experiences ( 5 senses )
Ni is a collection of remembered history of patterns ( 6th sense )

am i right here?

Don't relate Si to the senses because that will mess with your understanding.
MBTI kind of screwed up by calling it "Sensing" because both of the sensing functions (Se and Si) are perceptions that take in literal information, which does include the 5 senses, but it is not exclusive to it.

To put it simply, Si is a recall of literal information that was collected in the past, either by the senses, your information you read and thought about, etc.

Ni is a future oriented worldview model based on patterns and abstractions of the universal truths of natural law.

For more information, check out the Ni section of my thread:
http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=6582

 

[Logic]

First thing to note is that Ni does not draw conclusions, it simply provides information, drawing conclusions is the job of his Fe and/or Ti. And no, it is not neccesarily something as litteral as "He saw it happen before", you are confusing it with your own worldview (Si). A Pattern can occur in more ways than simply the same thing happening twice, Ni could apply a pattern in something that has absolutely nothing to do with an old man and his car, which is why it seems like it can be contradictory and paradoxical. What you saw happen contained two things, literal information (A symbol if you will) and interpretive information.

When my dad got this insight, he didn't get it because of what he saw in the literal sense but rather because of what the car symbolized to him based off of his unique Ni worldview?

If it was Si then he would have connected the event that had just happened to a previous event that happened, because they were somehow similar to one another based off of the individuals unique Si worldview?

The literal information was: The old man is driving a Ferrari
The Interpretive information was: The old man in the Ferrari's is symbolic of a natural pattern of the elderly wanting to feel young again by engaging in various activities.

So Si is information gained literally and Ni is Information gained symbolically. To elaborate i mean Si can only get information from reality and then it can be used with thinking or feeling to organize it somehow. While Ni can only get information from some other dimension that cant be explained literally since it isn't literal at all, it is a world of impressions or feelings or symbols that says things are related somehow intuitively but there is no way to know what those things are since they cant be explained through speech because speech would be Si.

Don't relate Si to the senses because that will mess with your understanding.
MBTI kind of screwed up by calling it "Sensing" because both of the sensing functions (Se and Si) are perceptions that take in literal information, which does include the 5 senses, but it is not exclusive to it.

To put it simply, Si is a recall of literal information that was collected in the past, either by the senses, your information you read and thought about, etc.

Ni is a future oriented worldview model based on patterns and abstractions of the universal truths of natural law.

If i shouldn't relate it to the Senses then what am i supposed to relate it to?, if it does relate to the senses, but is not exclusive to just them, then what more does it relate to besides the senses? seems like Ni?

If Si is concerned with the past and Se is concerned with the present and Ni is concerned with the future, then what is Ne concerned with?

 

[Adymus]

When my dad got this insight, he didn't get it because of what he saw in the literal sense but rather because of what the car symbolized to him based off of his unique Ni worldview?

If it was Si then he would have connected the event that had just happened to a previous event that happened, because they were somehow similar to one another based off of the individuals unique Si worldview?

Yes.

So Si is information gained literally and Ni is Information gained symbolically. To elaborate i mean Si can only get information from reality and then it can be used with thinking or feeling to organize it somehow. While Ni can only get information from some other dimension that cant be explained literally since it isn't literal at all, it is a world of impressions or feelings or symbols that says things are related somehow intuitively but there is no way to know what those things are since they cant be explained through speech because speech would be Si.

No Ni can be explained when put into a literal symbol (This is actually what metaphors are, an Ni pattern being symbolized by a piece of Se, literal information.)
There is a way to know what they are, they are patterns, not everything has to be literal to understand it, and they can be explained through speech, but in this specific case turning Ni to speech would be more like Fe and Se, not Si.

If i shouldn't relate it to the Senses then what am i supposed to relate it to?, if it does relate to the senses, but is not exclusive to just them, then what more does it relate to besides the senses? seems like Ni?

I just told you, literal information. Okay think of this: have you ever realized you were supposed to get something done, so you made a mental note to get it done at a later time, yes? Well this mental note is now a part of your Si, and it was not obtained by any of your senses, you just created it and logged it away for later use. It is only a bank of literal information, be it information collected by the senses or information created by your own mind.

If Si is concerned with the past and Se is concerned with the present and Ni is concerned with the future, then what is Ne concerned with?

Technically the Present as well, none of the adaptive/Right-brain functions (ie: Se, Ne, Ti, and Fi) are based in time.

 

[Logic]

This is my model of trying to understand the different functions, their essence and behavior. I did come up with this just recently so it shouldnt be taken as the truth, but i'm sharing this because i would like to get this peer reviewed, but still be explained in as few words as possible.

Ti: organizing internal information based on logic

Te: organizing external information based on logic

Fi: organizing internal ( own ) feelings based on ethics

Fe: organizing external ( other ) feelings based on ethics

(the basic break down of the thinking and feeling functions is that they are considered to be organizing functions, they try to take information gathered through sensing and intuition and try to gain some perspective on them)

Ni: Stored information based on the world of intuitive impressions

Ne: the process of gaining information from the world of Intuitive impressions

Si: stored information based on the world of senses

Se: the process of gaining information from the world of the senses

( the sensing and intuitive functions are split into 2 categories where the introverted functions are described as stored information and the extroverted functions are described as the act of gathering information)

I understand that this description may be incorrect, but then again its your job to correct it so get underway.

 

[Adymus]

Here are my corrections

Ti: Making logic based decisions based on personal criteria

Te: Making logic based decisions based on External criteria

Fi: Making values based decisions based on personal criteria

Fe: Making values based decisions based on external criteria

Ni: Stored pattern based information of a future oriented, subjective, and personal nature

Ne: the process of gaining pattern-based information as it emerges in the present

Si: Stored literal information of a past/experiential oriented, subjective, and personal nature

Se: the process of gaining literal information as it emerges in the present

1. Internal and external information can be used to make decisions by either of the functions. What is different is that with Ti, the logic being used is the personal logic of the Ti user, while a Te user is using or creating the logic of an objective and external construct. Same thing goes with Fi and personal values, as well as Fe with objective and societal values.

"Organizing" and "gaining perspective" on information is kind of a weird way of putting, which is why I just use "Making decisions" which is true without suggesting it does other things with it.

"Intuitive impressions" is also kind of a "wtf?" way of putting it as well. Let's be frank here, it is all just patterns.

 

[Logic]

No Ni can be explained when put into a literal symbol (This is actually what metaphors are, an Ni pattern being symbolized by a piece of Se, literal information.)
There is a way to know what they are, they are patterns, not everything has to be literal to understand it, and they can be explained through speech, but in this specific case turning Ni to speech would be more like Fe and Se, not Si.

OK thank you for connecting the understanding of Ni to metaphors because i think i gained quite a bit of perspective there, but how would it compare to similes?
Also if you can give more examples of Ni being conveyed in different ways.

I just told you, literal information. Okay think of this: have you ever realized you were supposed to get something done, so you made a mental note to get it done at a later time, yes? Well this mental note is now a part of your Si, and it was not obtained by any of your senses, you just created it and logged it away for later use. It is only a bank of literal information, be it information collected by the senses or information created by your own mind.
Technically the Present as well, none of the adaptive/Right-brain functions (ie: Se, Ne, Ti, and Fi) are based in time.

Ok i understand now that Si is a literal meaning. What it describes "is" what the subject "is". Ni is different because its saying that something "is" literally unrelated to "something else" but it is related based on some kind of abstract impression.
ex. Love is a rose
Now love "literally" is not a rose and its hard to find a comparison using logic, but to the Ni user this makes complete sense since its giving the message that love is beautiful but also painful ( thorns ), but its unique to the individual since only he/she will be able to understand its true meaning which may not even be the definition i just came up with, but something completely different.To a certain degree it is able to be explained with logic, but logic cant describe it fully unless the individual explains it, but maybe thats not possible either, unless it uses more metaphors or some other vehicle to express the impression. Very interesting.

How would the inner world (introverted functions) of an INTP compare with the inner world of an ISTP given their Tertiary functions are moderately developed?

 

[Logic]

Here are my corrections

Ti: Making logic based decisions based on personal criteria

Te: Making logic based decisions based on External criteria

Fi: Making values based decisions based on personal criteria

Fe: Making values based decisions based on external criteria

Ni: Stored pattern based information of a future oriented, subjective, and personal nature

Ne: the process of gaining pattern-based information as it emerges in the present

Si: Stored literal information of a past/experiential oriented, subjective, and personal nature

Se: the process of gaining literal information as it emerges in the present

Ti: what would be an example of personal criteria?
Ni:Why is Ni future oriented?
Ne:by pattern do you mean brainstorming different possibilities that may or may not be theoretically possible

 

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by BigApplePi
I'm not sure this is a story JUST about cognitive functions and personality types. Your father is close to you. He feels something. You are intellectually correct but feeling not. As an INTP you believe you are contributing but that isn't where your father is at.

I don't know. Maybe your father is using Fi and this isn't a case of Ni. Just a guess.

How does this even make sense?

Fi is not a perception function, you can't use Fi to gain a bunch of subjective information about something like Logic's dad did. (Unless you used Fi in conjunction with a perception function, like Ne. But this sounds like typical Ni to me)

Plus, if he is an INFJ then using Fi is obviously not a possibility.

That is correct. I made an error. I meant Fe. Suppose we grant more likely his father was using Ni. (I'll say something else about Ni in the next post.) I was just thinking there was the possibility he was listening to his son but had to socialize about it by expressing an opinion he knew he didn't hold deeply. That is a long shot. We (I) don't know. That would be Fe.

Addition: Thank you for pointing out the error.

 

[BigApplePi]

You want to understand Ni? This may not cover all the ground (I haven't thought about it), but a good way to understand Ni complete with a myriad of examples is the non-technical word, OPINION.

Think of the depth of this: "We should be in Afghanistan" or "We should not be in Afghanistan." Those are opinions held by typical Ni's, some of whom are very powerful and intelligent people. They bring in logic and reason to rationalize their positions, but no way to me (an INTP) are these proofs. Certainly not if big gun people exist on both sides.

As an INTP when I wish to apply reason, I loathe opinion. But I have to keep silent in non-intellectual social situations -- to my regret when I don't. I dislike opinion because I want to know both sides if my Ne sees outside the opinion.

Nevertheless, sometimes I will deliberately state an opinion if I grit my teeth. That is because it may be practical for the social situation(Fe). (All the preceding is my opinion.)

Ni is a worldview made up of a collective bank of patterns. This creates a subjective understanding of natural law that you are not going to be aware of. --- In fact, there is often such a massive amount of information behind that Ni leap that the Ni user will be reluctant to explain why they came to that conclusion, just because of how much energy it is going to take to explain all of it.

Your biggest complaint seems to be, "Why is Ni not open to possibilities?" Because it's not Ne, it's Ni. Ni is a function that provides the user subjective information, specifically future based patterns of how the world (or natural law) works. Ni is not looking for objective information like Ne is, it is not concerned with possibilities, it is concerned with the answer, very much like how your Si works.

This is by no means a shallow process however, Ni undergoes a series of perspective shifts until it can see a pattern in such a way that it can find it's underlying universal truths. Sure, your dad could be wrong, but he could also be right, don't think that just because you don't understand how he came to that conclusion means that he can't be right. Ni is after all subjective, and subjective should not be synonymous with "wrong".

 

[Logic]

I'm trying to imagine the Ni function and try to understand its principles by comparing it to the other functions such as Si or Ne or even Se. what Si can do is what Ni cannot do and vice versa, so based on this information Ni cannot be understood completely through literal information. It is highly figurative and abstract, sort of like an emotion but different somehow.

When Adymus gave the idea of metaphors i felt like i was pushed into an area where i was much more closer to the Ni function then before. So if it is at all possible then I would have to ask that if anyone wants to share their ideas, that they give some kind of exercise where Ni can be imagined, obviously it wont be complete, but I cant give up trying to understand Ni until I squeeze everything out of the bottle.

I will be studying various metaphors for the time being.

 

[Logic]

You want to understand Ni? This may not cover all the ground (I haven't thought about it), but a good way to understand Ni complete with a myriad of examples is the non-technical word, OPINION.

Think of the depth of this: "We should be in Afghanistan" or "We should not be in Afghanistan." Those are opinions held by typical Ni's, some of whom are very powerful and intelligent people. They bring in logic and reason to rationalize their positions, but no way to me (an INTP) are these proofs. Certainly not if big gun people exist on both sides.

As an INTP when I wish to apply reason, I loathe opinion. But I have to keep silent in non-intellectual social situations -- to my regret when I don't. I dislike opinion because I want to know both sides if my Ne sees outside the opinion.

Nevertheless, sometimes I will deliberately state an opinion if I grit my teeth. That is because it may be practical for the social situation(Fe). (All the preceding is my opinion.)

So when someone is holding an opinion about anything they are using Ni? I'm sure that its possible to hold an opinion based off of another function especially the Feeling functions.

Whenever I hold an opinion of something I feel very uncomfortable with it unless it has some kind of logical reasoning behind it and I will try and explain very clearly to whoever it is I'm talking to, that what i am expressing at that moment, is in fact just an opinion.

 

[BigApplePi]

I'm trying to imagine the Ni function and try to understand its principles by comparing it to the other functions such as Si or Ne or even Se. what Si can do is what Ni cannot do and vice versa, so based on this information Ni cannot be understood completely through literal information. It is highly figurative and abstract, sort of like an emotion but different somehow.

When Adymus gave the idea of metaphors i felt like i was pushed into an area where i was much more closer to the Ni function then before. So if it is at all possible then I would have to ask that if anyone wants to share their ideas, that they give some kind of exercise where Ni can be imagined, obviously it wont be complete, but I cant give up trying to understand Ni until I squeeze everything out of the bottle.

I will be studying various metaphors for the time being.

I like what you're doing, especially this.
As I said in my later post, Ni is close to opinion. It is the opposite of Si in that it covers general ground whereas Si is specific. Check these out:

Ni - We should not be in Afghanistan
Ne - Afghanistan is an issue
Si - If I go I'll get blown up
Se - I experienced it
Fi - Be afraid
Fe - There are things to fear
Ti - I will figure out the possibilities
Te - Here are the possibilities

 

[Logic]

I like what you're doing, especially this.
As I said in my later post, Ni is close to opinion. It is the opposite of Si in that it covers general ground whereas Si is specific. Check these out:

Ni - We should not be in Afghanistan
Ne - Afghanistan is an issue
Si - If I go I'll get blown up
Se - I experienced it
Fi - Be afraid ------------------------ (Why do you use an emotion to describe the feeling)
Fe - There are things to fear ----( functions? aren't they associated with Values? )
Ti - I will figure out the possibilities
Te - Here are the possibilities

Fascinating.
I forgot that the Intuitive functions were also general instead of specific. When we speak of general "things" or specific "things" what are we talking about exactly? are they ways of getting information or ideas? Or is when you speak of "S" functions as being literal and anything that is literal is considered specific, and "N" functions are figurative thus they are General or " big picture" ? If that is the case then are they somehow connected to one another besides being on opposite ends of a line? ( what would we call the " line " anyways? )

I like how your ideas of the functions are a different way to look at it all, but i must ask that you elaborate on them by also including why the functions "say" what they "say" and include a title for what it is your representing for the functions.( I understand that the central situation or idea is Afghanistan,but what about it exactly? ) I find your Fi is especially misleading, Be afraid of Afghanistan? should it not be interpreted as "Afghanistan is committing a sin" or maybe idealistically it would say Afghanistan needs to become better ( ethics wise ) ?

I would also like to note that i think i have a vague interpretation of the thinking and feeling functions as well, even though i have read many words trying to describe them, again I ask that there somehow be a way to experience the functions to even the slightest degree by some kind of exercise or maybe even a hypothetical situation since i believe that will spark something within that i can actually interpret ( Si?)

 

[echoplex]

Ni - We should not be in Afghanistan

Ni might indeed provide its user with the information that influences that opinion, but the opinion itself will be generated by the user's judging function(s). Most likely Te/Fe in xNxJs.

I think a better example for Ni might be something like "Afghanistan is an oatmeal cookie." Of course, that wouldn't make sense to you or me, but Ni is subjective and would make sense to its user. Perhaps they would see some aspect of the war, or war in general, associated with some aspect of an oatmeal cookie. They may see a similar pattern in both that we would miss. (of course this example is absurd, but that's kind of the point. lol)

 

[Logic]

Ni might indeed provide its user with the information that influences that opinion, but the opinion itself will be generated by the user's judging function(s). Most likely Te/Fe in xNxJs.

I think a better example for Ni might be something like "Afghanistan is an oatmeal cookie." Of course, that wouldn't make sense to you or me, but Ni is subjective and would make sense to its user. Perhaps they would see some aspect of the war, or war in general, associated with some aspect of an oatmeal cookie. They may see a similar pattern in both that we would miss. (of course this example is absurd, but that's kind of the point. lol)

I felt like i should have said that lol, but yea you are right and i also think the way Ni was put was more Fe, If i were to use a metaphor to describe the subject matter through the Ni funtion i would say...

Ni: Afghanistan is an explosion ( it gives a very, "in your face" kind of feel to it as well as being subjective )

 

[Logic]

Creating a Contrast:

I just had an idea for an exercise...I would like everyone to come up with as many words to describe a function and the antonym of that word would have to be a word to describe another function. You can use Se vs Si or Ti vs Fi or even Te vs Ne, basically you can interchange them as you like, but you can use no more then 2 functions at a time and you have to pit them on opposite ends of each other.(there are no limits to how many pair of words you want to use for the same pair of functions, just as long they are not used more then once)

An example would be: Si is black so Ni has to be white, but you will be using words that describe the function and you cant re-use the same pair of words either ( otherwise there wouldn't be any point to the exercise and it would get very confusing right? lol )

Here is a more detailed example. Ideally i would like all the functions compared to all the others to create an extensive model. ( you can use a sentence if you find it difficult to describe it with just one word )

Se vs Ti " word to describe Se" VS " word to describe Ti" (both words are antonyms)
Se vs Te
Se vs Fe
Se vs Fi
Se vs Ne
Se vs Ni
Se vs Si

 

[LAM]

Alright I've avoided this thread long enough.

Your dad did make an educated guess, an educated guess using Ni.

He is just doing what he is built to do naturally. Ni does not simply pull stories or information out of it's ass, it has an entire life of experience and observation behind it. Similar to the way Si is a worldview made up of a collective bank of historic and experiential details, Ni is a worldview made up of a collective bank of patterns. This creates a subjective understanding of natural law that you are not going to be aware of. What your dad saw was a pattern that his Ni had seen before, and he used that to speculate what this guy's story was.
In fact, there is often such a massive amount of information behind that Ni leap that the Ni user will be reluctant to explain why they came to that conclusion, just because of how much energy it is going to take to explain all of it.

Your biggest complaint seems to be, "Why is Ni not open to possibilities?" Because it's not Ne, it's Ni. Ni is a function that provides the user subjective information, specifically future based patterns of how the world (or natural law) works. Ni is not looking for objective information like Ne is, it is not concerned with possibilities, it is concerned with the answer, very much like how your Si works.

This is by no means a shallow process however, Ni undergoes a series of perspective shifts until it can see a pattern in such a way that it can find it's underlying universal truths. Sure, your dad could be wrong, but he could also be right, don't think that just because you don't understand how he came to that conclusion means that he can't be right. Ni is after all subjective, and subjective should not be synonymous with "wrong".

I do that a lot of times. Does that mean I am an INTJ because INTPs are apparently unable to do that? I seriously doubt that I have no access to NI Adymus <_<

 

[Adymus]

I do that a lot of times. Does that mean I am an INTJ because INTPs are apparently unable to do that? I seriously doubt that I have no access to NI Adymus <_<

You do what?

And you are probably looking at the exchange that Ne has with Si in your case. Sorry dude but you don't have conscious access to your Ni, it's not like you need to.

 

[LAM]

You do what?

And you are probably looking at the exchange that Ne has with Si in your case. Sorry dude but you don't have conscious access to your Ni, it's not like you need to.

Ne+Si= Ni effect???

 

[Logic]

Ne+Si= Ni effect???

I get what your saying, I usually think that Fi is like Fe and Ti or Se is like Si and Te, but they aren't, but still fun to think about.

 

[Adymus]

Ne+Si= Ni effect???

No.

But the N(e/i) functions are communicative with our corresponding S(e/i) functions, which gives them similar manifestations. This is why all personalities have at least some understanding of symbols and patterns, abstract and concrete, if we didn't have this relationship we would not really be able to survive as a species.

 

[Words]

This idea of combination of functions to mimic unconscious functions is puzzling me.

Facts:

Max/Min Duration of Each Cog Use: Unknown
Transition of Cognitives' Lag Time: Unknown
Biological Causality: Unknown
Relation with Cognitive Science: Unknown

1. A function can only be used one at a time. (You can't Ne while Articulating with Fe?)(no introversion(Ni/Ti) while extroversion(Ne/Te)

2. (INTP vs. INTJ) Ti + Ne + Si + Fe = Ni + Te + Fi + Se. Hierarchy shows sequence of Function Use.

3. Combination of Functions Mimics Unconscious Functions.

4. Requirement to Function involves the entire use of all 4 functions.

Therefore, Ti + Ne + Si + Fe = Ni + Te + Fi + Se. Common denominator = Functioning human. Difference = cognitive approach.

(Ti + Ne + Si + Fe)/(Ni + Te + Fi + Se) = Human

Ti + Ne + Si + Fe = Ni + X + X + X
Ti + Ne + Si + Fe = X + Te + X + X
Ti + Ne + Si + Fe = X + X + Fi + X
Ti + Ne + Si + Fe = X + X + X + Se

....

 

[Adymus]

Wtf are you talking about words?

1. Who ever said we can only use one function at a time? It would actually be more accurate to say that we can't use only one function at a time. For instance, when we use our Ti our Ne always automatically starts generating information.

2. What exactly are you getting at here?

3. No, this is misunderstanding of what functions actually do. For instance, just because Te is commonly related to planning and organizing, does not mean that using all 4 functions to plan and structure something in logical order means you are "mimicking" Te. It means you are using your functions to accomplish something that Te is often associated with, but Te is still it's own function with it's own use and functionality.

4. yeah, I think I have said enough here.

 

[Words]

Wtf are you talking about words?

Heh, I had no idea but expression was priority.

1. Who ever said we can only use one function at a time? It would actually be more accurate to say that we can't use only one function at a time. For instance, when we use our Ti our Ne always automatically starts generating information.

it makes sense....

2. What is this even supposed to mean?

I concluded it from here.

Information gathering definitely does not start at Si for an INTP. We always start with Ti, then gather possibilities with Ne, and then check their validity with Si.

I would say an Si based decision is very similar to inductive reasoning, in that it relates judgment to past experience. But we are INTPs, which means we consider past experience as a very low priority, and we would rather stay open to other possibilities (Ne.), but will roll into Si if we cannot foresee any other possibilities, or we need to check out current conclusion with a past answer.

It would also be misleading to say that Ni gets a "specific" answer. Essentially this is us trying to comprehend Ni with our Si, because while Si looks at specific facts. Ni looks at a specific pattern, which is not a single object, but a single pattern that occurs in many objects. Then it outlines it's plan with Te using Ni as a map, then it check the plan with Fi to see what is most important, and just sharpen the plan, and then it uses Se to turn the plan into action and tangible reality.

Have you seen the Sherlock Holmes movie? There is a perfect demonstration of INTJ processing in that. Sherlock would visualize how he is going to attack a person, using Ni and Te to abstract the experience in a step by step plan, and then he switches to Se when he runs over and attacks the person.

3. No, this is misunderstanding of what functions actually do. For instance, just because Te is commonly related to planning and organizing, does not mean that using all 4 functions to plan and structure something in logical order means you are "mimicking" Te. It means you are using your functions to accomplish something that Te is often associated with, but Te is still it's own function with it's own use and functionality.

I see...

(all the misunderstandings I have collected). That model is still so very unknown to me.

That shift in information produces so much questions..argh

 

[Logic]

So for my exercise i have gotten this far...

Ni vs Si Figurative vs Literal
Ni vs Se Future vs Present
Ni vs Ne plane landing vs plane taking off
Ni vs Ti sudden realization vs calculating
Ni vs Te motivation vs planning
Ni vs Fe independent vs concerned
Ni vs Fi prediction vs opinion

I do think this activity may be a little bit difficult, but regardless it is a fun. If anyone wants to add or come up with their own then that would be great, this one was done in about 15 minutes so don't get offended lol.

 

[Logic]

Hey guys im also having some trouble loading my profile picture, I tried adding it and everything seems to be fine but it doesn't show up when i make a comment on a thread, thanks.

 

[Words]

So for my exercise i have gotten this far...

Ni vs Si Figurative vs Literal
Ni vs Se Future vs Present
Ni vs Ne plane landing vs plane taking off
Ni vs Ti sudden realization vs calculating
Ni vs Te motivation vs planning
Ni vs Fe independent vs concerned
Ni vs Fi prediction vs opinion

I do think this activity may be a little bit difficult, but regardless it is a fun. If anyone wants to add or come up with their own then that would be great, this one was done in about 15 minutes so don't get offended lol.

I think I prefer their exact meanings. These things confuses me and adds to my already "blurred" knowledge of Cognitive Function.

Hey guys im also having some trouble loading my profile picture, I tried adding it and everything seems to be fine but it doesn't show up when i make a comment on a thread, thanks.

There is the profile picture, there is the avatar.

Gin is IxTP? (seems to have developed Fe) ExTP?

 

[Logic]

There is the profile picture, there is the avatar.

Gin is IxTP? (seems to have developed Fe) ExTP?

I cant see my profile picture and i cant see my avatar either ( what is the avatar? )

 

[Words]

I cant see my profile picture and i cant see my avatar either ( what is the avatar? )

Click your name on the upper right corner of your screen at the top of this page, that is your profile picture. Then Click User CP, then click Edit Avatar.

 

[Logic]

Click your name on the upper right corner of your screen at the top of this page, that is your profile picture. Then Click User CP, then click Edit Avatar.

ok so the profile picture is not the avatar, the avatar is the picture you see when you make posts and your avatar shows a kid looking up at orange spheres right? can you see my avatar ?

 

[Logic]

Is there any more ways to kind of "see" Ni, like are their certain video clips that show Ni in the person by his or her speech and mannerisms or some other way. Maybe even some movies that show a high degree of Intuitive use especially Ni, and some explanations on why he/she thought that way or how they came to that conclusion.

Maybe a way that is similar to metaphors but with advertisements or pictures where you can see somebodies Ni at work on a canvas of some kind.

There were some episodes in Star Trek The Original Series that show cased high intuitive use like "Obsession" episode 42 where Kirk got this intuitive feeling about this cloud-like being. He kept saying that he just "knew" that it had bad intentions, which i thought was kind of interesting.

Don't get me wrong im aware that i wont be able to "get into someones head" and actually understand Ni like the user does, but i cant stop trying to explore all the possible roads that can be used to understand Ni so I can come to a more complete understanding of it. So if there is another way that wasn't discussed then I would truly appreciate it they were to make it known to me on this thread.

I appreciate the help of Adymus on showing me his thread "Cognitive Functions 100: Basic Functionality Revised" to try and help me, and it definitely has and I have already read through it multiple times already and I dont see myself stopping any time soon but I need more real time examples of Ni being practiced. Yes definitely more examples which I feel as though no one is willing to share because they dont have any or they have ran out of patience with this thread maybe?, I wish I knew.

I'm completely open to pretty much any ideas, movies, books,...anything...I mean i have an INFJ and INTJ in my family so if theres maybe a way for me to take advantage of that then help me out. Its why I joined this forum, the main reason being, to try and further my understanding of the functions and use that knowledge to develop myself more completely, to become more then I am now, and to be able to use this acquired insight to understand other people better and connect with them more easily. I cant speak for all INTP's but for me relationships with people has always been kind of difficult and I cant have that anymore, I have to break out of that mold, and this mbti has really opened my eyes a lot of different things and I dont want this knowledge to go to waste or be incomplete.

I know that i may be pushing this beyond some peoples level of tolerance, but i cant help that I still dont understand Ni as much id like to, and i owe it to myself to understand all the typology functions completely because i can see just how useful they can be to myself.

 

[Adymus]

Logic, read the The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. The main character (as well as Paulo I am sure) is an INFJ, and his whole thought process and how he sees the world is classic Ni-Fe.

 

[BigApplePi]

Is there any more ways to kind of "see" Ni, like are their certain video clips that show Ni in the person by his or her speech and mannerisms or some other way. Maybe even some movies that show a high degree of Intuitive use especially Ni, and some explanations on why he/she thought that way or how they came to that conclusion.

Maybe a way that is similar to metaphors but with advertisements or pictures where you can see somebodies Ni at work on a canvas of some kind.

There were some episodes in Star Trek The Original Series that show cased high intuitive use like "Obsession" episode 42 where Kirk got this intuitive feeling about this cloud-like being. He kept saying that he just "knew" that it had bad intentions, which i thought was kind of interesting.

Don't get me wrong im aware that i wont be able to "get into someones head" and actually understand Ni like the user does, but i cant stop trying to explore all the possible roads that can be used to understand Ni so I can come to a more complete understanding of it. So if there is another way that wasn't discussed then I would truly appreciate it they were to make it known to me on this thread.

I appreciate the help of Adymus on showing me his thread "Cognitive Functions 100: Basic Functionality Revised" to try and help me, and it definitely has and I have already read through it multiple times already and I dont see myself stopping any time soon but I need more real time examples of Ni being practiced. Yes definitely more examples which I feel as though no one is willing to share because they dont have any or they have ran out of patience with this thread maybe?, I wish I knew.

I'm completely open to pretty much any ideas, movies, books,...anything...I mean i have an INFJ and INTJ in my family so if theres maybe a way for me to take advantage of that then help me out. Its why I joined this forum, the main reason being, to try and further my understanding of the functions and use that knowledge to develop myself more completely, to become more then I am now, and to be able to use this acquired insight to understand other people better and connect with them more easily. I cant speak for all INTP's but for me relationships with people has always been kind of difficult and I cant have that anymore, I have to break out of that mold, and this mbti has really opened my eyes a lot of different things and I dont want this knowledge to go to waste or be incomplete.

I know that i may be pushing this beyond some peoples level of tolerance, but i cant help that I still dont understand Ni as much id like to, and i owe it to myself to understand all the typology functions completely because i can see just how useful they can be to myself.

Logic. Could it be all INTPs are in the same boat with regard to Ni? Those who lead with Ni (INFJs & INTJs) are busy doing their thing. INTPs can't accept this intuitively as their intuition is Ne which insists in searching for objectivity and their thinking must straighten out inconsistencies. I would think an INTP must accept an INxJ from the outside adapting a POV of tolerance. Tolerance means the acceptance of the INxJ differences. There may be analytical approaches to these differences, but they will branch out into territories new to the INTP leading to more of the same.

 

[Logic]

Logic, read the The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. The main character (as well as Paulo I am sure) is an INFJ, and his whole thought process and how he sees the world is classic Ni-Fe.

Hey thanks Adymus , and if you happen to come across any more ways to get a grip with Ni then please fill me in on this thread. If BigApplePi is right, then I think we owe it to the INTP's to give a more thorough run down of the functions, especially Ni.

It seems to me as though you know a bit more about the functions then the average INTP, what helped you to get as far as you have?. Are there certain things that you did?