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The Moral Animal: Why We Are The Way We Are: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology

flow

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I just had this book recommended to me from my anthropology teacher, and I've yet to start actually reading it (I got it for Christmas). I think a lot of you would find it particularly interesting though, as it appears to be on the forefront of the new evolutionary psychology movement. It's written by Robert Wright. Check check it, yeah!

An interesting quote about it:

"Fiercely intelligent, beautifully written and engrossingly original... a feast of great thinking and writing about the most profound issues there are." - The New York Times Book Review
 

Da Blob

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I just had this book recommended to me from my anthropology teacher, and I've yet to start actually reading it (I got it for Christmas). I think a lot of you would find it particularly interesting though, as it appears to be on the forefront of the new evolutionary psychology movement. It's written by Robert Wright. Check check it, yeah!

An interesting quote about it:

"Fiercely intelligent, beautifully written and engrossingly original... a feast of great thinking and writing about the most profound issues there are." - The New York Times Book Review

Evolutionary psychology is just another Myth
masquerading as science.
The Past no longer exists
so there is no valid, legitimate science
connected with the study of the past
There are no manipulative variables!!!

That being said, even tho E. P. has no therapeutic value
It does provide an interesting Philosophical perspective
I find it quite useful to quote
E. P. dogma when I wish to make
a politically incorrect statement
(I dodge responsibility that way)

However, the evolution of the psychology of the individual
is a proper field of scientific investigations
I believe that perhaps a good 'companion' reading
to Evolutionary Psych. books would be
Social and Personality Development By David Shaffer...
particularly in a forum inspired by Personality type theory....
 

flow

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Evolutionary psychology is just another Myth
masquerading as science.
The Past no longer exists

Please.

As for it being in libraries, I don't know. It came out in 1994, but I really don't know how well received it's been. I've read through the first 100 pages thus far and the book has done nothing but make sense. It's already influencing my way of seeing the world.. I'm very pleased to have discovered this gem.
 

Jesin

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Robi, what was all that about? That was a parody, right? I hope that was a parody.

---

Also, I would like to point out:

Also, have you read The Moral Animal? I ask because that book says many of the same things you just said.

I would suggest that you read The Moral Animal. It looks at natural selection as the cause of morality. Good book.
 

Da Blob

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Robi, what was all that about? That was a parody, right? I hope that was a parody.

---

Also, I would like to point out:

No, I have not read the book and
I am not going to be prejudiced against a book I have not read
(that would be anti-INTPish)

However, One of my degrees is in Psychology
and I really resent some of these 'off the wall' philosophies
being allowed to parade as science
without providing scientific validation.
technically, they're merely unprovable myths
because they are unprovable theories
Most people realize that a good theory
must be potentially disprovable (re: Popper)

Anthropology is not a science.
it is merely a branch of the Humanities
which has appropriated the adjective, scientific
in an effort to legitimize the dehumanization of Humanity
Evolutionary Psychology is simply a Philosophy
that embraces obsolete Freudian psychology, anthropology
and the politically correct religion of Evolution
which in itself, is merely an unprovable Myth,
scientifically speaking

That being said, I do find E. P. useful
and a source of humor
as I see some of its proponents
try to dodge the implications
inherent in E. P. assumptions...
 

Da Blob

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No, I have not read the book and
I am not going to be prejudiced against a book I have not read
(that would be anti-INTPish)

However, One of my degrees is in Psychology
and I really resent some of these 'off the wall' philosophies
being allowed to parade as science
without providing scientific validation.
technically, they're merely unprovable myths
because they are unprovable theories
Most people realize that a good theory
must be potentially disprovable (re: Popper)

Anthropology is not a science.
it is merely a branch of the Humanities
which has appropriated the adjective, scientific
in an effort to legitimize the dehumanization of Humanity
Evolutionary Psychology is simply a Philosophy
that embraces obsolete Freudian psychology, anthropology
and the politically correct religion of Evolution
which in itself, is merely an unprovable Myth,
scientifically speaking

That being said, I do find E. P. useful
and a source of humor
as I see some of its proponents
try to dodge the implications
inherent in E. P. assumptions...

FYI parody?

Wright and wrong.
By RICHARD LYNN
Mr. Lynn is a professor of psychology at the University of Ulster in Northern Ireland.
Vol. 47, National Review, 03-20-1995, pp 70.
THE MORAL ANIMAL: WHY WE ARE THE WAY WE ARE, BY ROBERT WRIGHT


ROBERT WRIGHT attempts to explain man as a moral animal in terms of ``evolutionary psychology,''
a nascent academic discipline based on the principle that humans are programmed by evolution to secure the replication of their genes. They do this primarily by having and caring for children and by helping
their kinsfolk and other members of their ethnic or racial group.

Evolutionary psychology is therefore nothing other than the more familiar sociobiology, but Mr. Wright says he prefers not to use that term because it has conservative connotations. I think this is a mistake. The connotations of a body of knowledge cannot be changed simply by giving it a new name.

His treatment has two merits and three weaknesses. The first of its merits is that Mr. Wright has correctly discerned that the sociobiological model of human behavior is a great advance on its predecessor, the cultural determinist theory, which held that our behavior is entirely determined by the cultural environment in which we are raised. The leading lights of this theory were such people as
Margaret Mead and B. F. Skinner, who believed that humans are infinitely malleable.

The second merit of Mr. Wright's book is that he gives an accurate account of some of sociobiology's principal propositions. He is, for instance, sound on the differences between men and women. Contrary to the assertions of cultural determinists, sociobiology teaches that men and women are psychologically
different. For one thing, men are by nature more promiscuous than women because this way they can does not secure them an evolutionary advantage.

However, Mr. Wright's book also has three weaknesses. The first of these is that the conclusions of sociobiology are presented through rose-tinted spectacles. Mr. Wright asserts that sociobiology teaches that humans are naturally good, because they are biologically programmed to help one another. How
comforting!
This, however, is a profound misunderstanding of the message of sociobiology, which is rather that human beings are amoral or immoral animals. Sociobiology teaches that humans are programmed to promote the survival of their own genes and that they assist others only insofar as this is likely to serve
the genetic objective. A much better title for the book would have been The Selfish Gene, but as this has already been used by Richard Dawkins, Mr. Wright might have called his book The Amoral Animal.

Because of his wish to promote the view that sociobiology teaches that humans are naturally moral animals, Mr. Wright omits or summarily dismisses those propositions of sociobiology which show that the human being is a rather nasty animal. The first of these is that human males are biologically programmed to stratify their societies into status hierarchies. Males compete to become top dog, or at least to become middle dogs. The top dogs allocate privileges primarily to themselves. They fight off challenges from underdogs, and maintain their status by cunning, the inculcation of fear, and brute force.

Sociobiologists have shown that these status hierarchies are present among all social animals and that male striving for status is programmed by the hormone testosterone. It is not particularly pretty to see powerful males grabbing and keeping the goodies largely for themselves, but sociobiology teaches that
this is the way men are.

The second major respect in which we are hardly moral animals is our propensity for killing one another. As animals go, humans are particularly prone to kill one another, particularly in group conflicts
and wars. Indeed, our only rivals in this regard in the entire animal kingdom are the ants. Sociobiologists have concluded that the human propensity for warfare and even genocide is biologically programmed. The explanation is that if we can exterminate other groups, we can move into their genes. This is particularly the case when the rival group belongs to a different race from our own,
because its members have few genes in common with us. This hardly befits ``the moral animal.'' Mr. Wright presents a sanitized version of sociobiology in which much has been suppressed.

The second weakness of Mr. Wright's book lies in his discussion of the implications of sociobiology for political theory. As sociobiology developed in the 1970s it was quickly realized that it confirmed the conservative view of human nature. If human males are biologically programmed to compete for rank in
status hierarchies, the implication is that the egalitarian utopias cherished by the liberal Left, in which all men are equals, won't work. They are against human nature. Conservatives always suspected this, and sociobiology corroborates their insight.

Similarly, sociobiology teaches that the ideal of a multiracial society in which all races live in harmony is another liberal-Left pipe dream. Humans are biologically programmed for group conflict, particularly between races that are genetically differentiated. Sociobiology teaches that we can forget the ideal of
racial harmony. The best we can do is try to mitigate racial conflict as much as possible. Liberal-Left academics were among the first to realize that sociobiology has profoundly conservative implications for political theory. This is why they mounted such a vigorous campaign against it, proclaiming it a fascist pseudo-science. Curiously, Mr. Wright does not go along with this conclusion.

Time and again he asserts that sociobiology does not confirm conservative political theory. But this is not an arguable position and he is unable to make a case for it. In fact he must be the only person who has made a fairly serious study of sociobiology and yet is unwilling to concede that it confirms the
conservative view of human nature.

The intellectual problem for the liberal Left now is to take this on board and regroup. Its members are in the same position as the Church after the publication of The Origin of Species. Darwin's book appeared to show that much of the Bible is plain wrong and therefore posed a serious threat to Christian belief.
Some people reacted to this by attempting to suppress the implications of Darwinism -- the Robert Wright strategy. Others realized that the only hope was to accept the theory and jettison those beliefs that were obviously no longer tenable.

The liberal Left faces the same problem with sociobiology. Its task is to take seriously the conclusions of sociobiology regarding the dark side of human nature and think through what of its agenda can be salvaged. This book is a long way from meeting the case.

The book's third and perhaps most fundamental weakness is its failure to come to grips with the problem. that, while sociobiology teaches that man has an inherent propensity to act selfishly, man is nevertheless a moral animal. Most human beings develop a conscience which dictates their behavior in countless
directions. So the problem for someone writing a book called The Moral Animal is to explain how conscience is acquired.

Unfortunately for Mr. Wright, sociobiology does not attempt to explain things like this. To understand how humans develop a conscience one could shift to Pavlovian conditioning theory, which says that parents condition their children by approval and disapproval to behave in acceptable ways, or to modeling theory, which says that children adopt their parents as models for a wide range of behaviors and values. If Robert Wright wished to explain why man is a uniquely moral animal, he chose the wrong theory.
 

Jesin

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Evolutionary psychology is therefore nothing other than the more familiar sociobiology

This, however, is a profound misunderstanding of the message of sociobiology

Those do not fit together very well.

---

When I asked if that was a parody, that was prompted by the writing style. I have seen that writing style before, but I don't remember seeing you use it before now.

And as for this:

The Past no longer exists
so there is no valid, legitimate science
connected with the study of the past

That is just nonsense. I mean, yes, it's true that you cannot actually go and run experiments in the past, but that doesn't mean that something resembling the scientific method can't still apply. And anyway, "not science" does not necessarily mean "not scientifically valid".
 
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Da Blob

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Those do not fit together very well.

---

When I asked if that was a parody, that was prompted by the writing style. I have seen that writing style before, but I don't remember seeing you use it before now.

And as for this:



That is just nonsense. I mean, yes, it's true that you cannot actually go and run experiments in the past, but that doesn't mean that something resembling the scientific method can't still apply. And anyway, "not science" does not necessarily mean "not scientifically valid".

No problem with parody
I should have written a sentence
instead of just popping that one word in
expecting you to read my mind or something

However, I would suggest
that you have become the victim of
The curse of propaganda....

actually there is no process similar
to the scientific method
it is too narrowly focused
It is either the scientific method or not,
unless you are referring to pseudoscience?

The adjective 'scientific'
is often a word without meaning
or, at least, a specific antecedent

How can you think that something
that is "Un-Science"
can be validated as true Science?
or again, even a pseudoscience
a cheap imitation of the real thing
 

flow

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Robi, you've successfully raised my eyebrows, but probably not in the manner you meant. Other INTPs, read this book and gain wonderful insights into human nature.

A side note: This is why I didn't major in psychology, I find that everyone who majors in psychology thinks of themselves as some sort of expert, though they tend to be misinformed and naive.
 

Da Blob

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Robi, you've successfully raised my eyebrows, but probably not in the manner you meant. Other INTPs, read this book and gain wonderful insights into human nature.

A side note: This is why I didn't major in psychology, I find that everyone who majors in psychology thinks of themselves as some sort of expert, though they tend to be misinformed and naive.

Perhaps, but it is merely your opinion as opposed to mine,
as there is no way to verify this psychological myth.
You can believe in Santa Claus if you want to
and I will not deliberating discount that belief either

Odd that you should mention 'expertise' ...
I have been motivated to start a new thread on Oppression,
(that's why I returned to this forum)
to which I am going to try attach a paper
I wrote in graduate school
in which I utilized many Evolutionary Psych. concepts
 

flow

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Listen, that's fine if you want to call evolutionary psychology a myth, but I'm talking about a book, not a theory. If I wanted to debate anyone on the subject of evolutionary psychology I would have posted a topic titled "Evolutionary Psychology". You haven't read the book that both Jesin and myself are suggesting towards other open-minded INTPs to look into, yet you respond calling it a "myth" and suggesting that you know better. Please, if you don't agree with the promotion of a book you haven't read, don't respond.
 

Da Blob

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Listen, that's fine if you want to call evolutionary psychology a myth, but I'm talking about a book, not a theory. If I wanted to debate anyone on the subject of evolutionary psychology I would have posted a topic titled "Evolutionary Psychology". You haven't read the book that both Jesin and myself are suggesting towards other open-minded INTPs to look into, yet you respond calling it a "myth" and suggesting that you know better. Please, if you don't agree with the promotion of a book you haven't read, don't respond. I look forward to your topic on oppression, I'm sure you have plenty of experience.

My apologies, no offense was intended
I hope there has been a misunderstanding
I was using Myth 1a, not 3 or 4

myth .
1.a. A traditional, (typically ancient) story …. that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society
b. Such stories considered as a group:
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal:
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing:

But at the same time, I hope you understand
that as a psychologist and a scientist,
I was 'defending my hard-earned turf'
against the encroachment of an imposter...
 

Jesin

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Perhaps, but it is merely your opinion as opposed to mine,
as there is no way to verify this psychological myth.

If it's just one opinion against another, why are you being so dismissive?

You can believe in Santa Claus if you want to
and I will not deliberating discount that belief either

You can't prove a negative, but you can prove a negative beyond a reasonable doubt. Santa Claus has been proven nonexistent beyond a reasonable doubt.
 

Da Blob

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If it's just one opinion against another, why are you being so dismissive?



You can't prove a negative, but you can prove a negative beyond a reasonable doubt. Santa Claus has been proven nonexistent beyond a reasonable doubt.

Rhetorical tactic...
I enjoy arguing, it makes me think
if my thoughts are unopposed
undefended, then they are
relatively worthless

But i never mean to
oppose people, just ideas..
 

hopefulmonster

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I think evolutionary psychology has much more theoretical justification then psychology as we see it today. The basic premise of it is that human psychology is just as subject to selective pressures as is the rest of our biology and thus can be analyzed in the framework of"how does this help me pass on my genes."

Blob I would not be so dismissive of scientific inquiry. I know you fancy zhuangzi's famous dreaming butterfly thought experiment but reality does exist. To think otherwise is to be delusional.

I realize you are trying to disprove the validity of logic(ironically by using logic) thus rendering all of our arguments void. But you are failing miserably. I eagerly await your next fortune cookie quote.
 

Jesin

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A lot of what is labeled as "evolutionary psychology" is crud.

The theory has merit. The problem is that it's so drastically misunderstood/misapplied.
 

Da Blob

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A lot of what is labeled as "evolutionary psychology" is crud.

The theory has merit. The problem is that it's so drastically misunderstood/misapplied.

I agree, the misapplication could be a ticking time bomb, considering that similar ideas, 'improving" the human species; more or less was the rationale for some pretty inhumane actions during the last century...
 

hopefulmonster

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A lot of what is labeled as "evolutionary psychology" is crud.

The theory has merit. The problem is that it's so drastically misunderstood/misapplied.

Yeah it definitely needs some practical testing methodology. I don't think it should be labeled a scientific field yet it's simply too immature. That being said I do think it is going to be our best bet for a study of the human mind that is not quasi-philosophical.
 
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