The INTP and arguments

[Nightingale]

I mentioned on another board that I've had a few relationships in which my partner (who is invariably more of an "F" type or at least a weak "T") resorts to lying during disagreements. He will passionately insist that he said or did something that simply never occurred (or will claim not to have said or done something that did in fact occur), then later on when he has calmed down, he will recall the truth again.

A couple other posters replied saying that they had experienced the same thing and later I noticed that both these people tested as INTPs. I was reminded of this bit from the Architect description:

It is difficult for an Architect to listen to nonsense, even in a casual conversation, without pointing out the speaker's error. And in any serious discussion or debate Architects are devastating, their skill in framing arguments giving them an enormous advantage. Architects regard all discussions as a search for understanding, and believe their function is to eliminate inconsistencies, which can make communication with them an uncomfortable experience for many.

I'm curious as to whether any of you have experienced this and (if so) to what you attribute it. Do most people spout out things that are not true during a disagreement and the INTP just happens to take more notice of this? Or do we perhaps inspire others toward this behavior because of how we behave during a disagreement or argument? One possibility I thought about is that if we happen to find ourselves in a disagreement with someone who has a drive to win instead of a drive to reach understanding, this person will feel so threatened by the INTP skill at framing arguments that he becomes willing (or feels compelled, even) to lie in order to feel as though he has "won".

If this is a problem for you, have you been able to figure out any way to keep it from happening or to modify your reaction in order to get a more positive outcome? I'm still struggling with this with my current partner, an INFP.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Possibly the direct method used by most INTPs in an argument can cause insecurity in the other person. Because we prefer to only state what we know and do so with an outward confidence the other person feels the need to compensate so as not to seem stupid.

This ties into why others see us as arrogant, dispite out constant self analysis.

 

[Anling]

Sometimes I think other people just have a completely different take on reality from me. At least at the time they say these things that don't make any sense, or are blatantly wrong, they seem to believe them. Perhaps it is just that they have a more subjective, fluid, view of reality than I do. Maybe they have selective memory. (Bah, I am not explaining this well. But I can't think of better words to explain my thoughts with. Arg!)

If it is a tactic to win the argument I guess it works from their perspective as I stop talking to them (usually), to retreat and try to figure out what on earth they are talking about. Or it could be just that I then view them as crazy and irrational and incapable of discussing things with. It could also be that as an intp I just find it more irritating than other people. I'm pretty sure that it isn't just my behavior that causes the screwy logic and/or facts, though. The people I have experience seem to behave basically the same in most arguments regardless of who it is with. Some people really do have to win regardless of what the truth actually is.

 

[Ermine]

I'm curious as to whether any of you have experienced this and (if so) to what you attribute it. Do most people spout out things that are not true during a disagreement and the INTP just happens to take more notice of this? Or do we perhaps inspire others toward this behavior because of how we behave during a disagreement or argument? One possibility I thought about is that if we happen to find ourselves in a disagreement with someone who has a drive to win instead of a drive to reach understanding, this person will feel so threatened by the INTP skill at framing arguments that he becomes willing (or feels compelled, even) to lie in order to feel as though he has "won".

If this is a problem for you, have you been able to figure out any way to keep it from happening or to modify your reaction in order to get a more positive outcome? I'm still struggling with this with my current partner, an INFP.

Yeah, my directness tends to back people into a corner. However, I usually make a point to not be confrontational unless my principles have been violated or I need to clarify something. Most of my arguing experience is mostly from thinkers rather than feelers though. Instead of lying in order to save face, they try to assert authority over me, or assert that the discrepancy we're arguing is insignificant.

However, the lie is usually what starts the argument for me. I'm very devoted to truth, so a violation of truth is a violation of me. Usually they don't try to lie again. They just assert that they're right over and over by any means, even by intimidation.

Sadly, I haven't discovered a way to resolve the argument without backing out. All I can do is avoid the confrontation in the first place.

 

[Duty]

Yeah, my directness tends to back people into a corner. However, I usually make a point to not be confrontational unless my principles have been violated or I need to clarify something. Most of my arguing experience is mostly from thinkers rather than feelers though. Instead of lying in order to save face, they try to assert authority over me, or assert that the discrepancy we're arguing is insignificant.

However, the lie is usually what starts the argument for me. I'm very devoted to truth, so a violation of truth is a violation of me. Usually they don't try to lie again. They just assert that they're right over and over by any means, even by intimidation.

Sadly, I haven't discovered a way to resolve the argument without backing out. All I can do is avoid the confrontation in the first place.

Wow, you sound EXACTLY like me. Truth is part of who I am.

The worst person to call out is an ESTJ...they do exactly what you describe here: intimidate and try to assert authority...which I call out as an informal fallacy of Appealing to Force...which only annoys them further.
or
They try to tell me they're right because their belief is tradition. I once again point out the appropriate logical fallacy.
or
They appeal to their view being the popular one. Same result.

Ugh.

ESTJs aren't the only ones that do this either though, just the person that first comes to mind is my ESTJ grandfather.



I read an INTP description that really appealed to me as well:
INTPs see debate as a win/win situation. If they win the debate they more strongly affirm their own point of view. If they lose, then they learn something new or at least a new perspective. Either way they gain something...so they naturally love debate.

 

[Ermine]

I think my mom is an ESTJ or ISTJ. She's the one I end up arguing with the most.

And discovering competitive debate was a breath of fresh air for me. Especially Lincoln Douglas style debating.

 

[Duty]

I think my mom is an ESTJ or ISTJ. She's the one I end up arguing with the most.

And discovering competitive debate was a breath of fresh air for me. Especially Lincoln Douglas style debating.

My mom is ISTJ too, I have many of the same problems with her.

And competitive debate...I did it in high school against the instructor, and walloped her so bad in front of every debate class at the school. Was good stuff.
I wonder if there's anything like that locally that I could get into.

 

[Ermine]

Yeah, I hope there are community debate clubs for adults out there. I don't know if I want to keep going in college though. From what I hear, they are a lot more interested in going around in circles with their logic rather than coming to a conclusion.

 

[Madoness]

OK, at least for me, I love to debate or argue about different subject matters I know at least something about, even when my arguments then may not be thought through, I'll explain at least so much I know about it and defend my point of view. I'll do everything I can to know a lot more next time when it comes to that, but tend to really hate when others won't do the same.
When a subject is brought up from a person who doesn't know anything about it or cannot explain enough how he/she feels that way, then there are usually two possibilities. When I know he/she is an intellecual type, then I try to logically smash every idea he or she might have. But when it comes to people I consider as dumb, I won't debate at all, their ideas are usually not so motivative to think about.
Even though, when debating, my point with debating, is not to be right about the matters argued about, but to clearly point out the flaws the other has, and I even welcome when the other does tha same. I can fix my flaw with further studying about the matter, as I tent to leave my conclusions open, I can fix my flaws easily.
My friends allthough don't like to debate with me much, as they see and have said to me that I must always have the final word about the debate and must always be the one who won it. But it really isn't about winning.
On my job, I have had some discussions with my superiors, they tend to see me a person who has lost he's touch with the reality as I love to work alone with my music system volume on max:P And secondly, I may act a lot different than others at my work, so they've asked me if I'm a drug addict because of that action I do they don't understand.
When my work enviroment is not how I like it to be and cannot change it to how i like, then I tend to not go to work at all, as I'm not motivated enough to go there.
With their thought of me being a drug addict they cannot be more wrong, I really hate that they thought it. But since then I've sent them to everywhere you can think of, saying it right to their faces in a way they couldn't hack what I've said, and that is really one of the biggest things I'm proud of, because they should be smarter than I because they are my superiors, not the other way around.

(sorry about these linguistic mistakes I might have because I'm from Estonia, my native language is not english)