Power

[Words]

For the sake of discussion, power will be defined as "the 'determinant' of ability." It is what enables us to act "our decisions"(though I don't know if the idea of "our decisions" exists). The significant('significant' meaning the 'catch') trait of this definition of power lies in the flexible 'levels' it can attune to. 'Power' participates in everything. Power enables us to think. Power enables us to breath and therefore, enables us to survive. Power enables us to blink. It enables us to kill someone. It enables us to implement ideas. It enables us to destroy reality, explore it, or to "help" it. Power = Freedom. (Energy is within the set of what is Power.)

(I drew a chart for this but the album has been acting weird lately. I can't upload images and this "Invalid File" keeps showing even if the images fit the requirements.)

Also, if you have other definitions, please share. And if you think there is a more efficient definition, do argue.

My "supposed main" questions are:

Why is power important to us? How important is power to each of us? How important is power to you? How important is "freedom" to you?

How do we obtain power? How do we utilize power in order to get more power? How do we, in a sense, "grow" our power? How do people around you do it? How did the supposed "most powerful" "grow" their power? How will you grow yours? Or will you not let it grow? Or how much power do you have in adjusting the "growth"(or level) of your power?

If humans can have power, can humans have no power?

(Does anyone have "freedom", hence, does anyone have "power"?)

 

[Solitaire U.]

This is an illusion you speak of. Even something regarded within it's class as being relatively powerless...a 20 year old Nissan Sentra (Tsuru) on it's last legs after being used as a Taxi in Mexico City for it's entire life, can run me down and make me just as dead as a semi loaded with 80,000 lbs. of steel girders can. Dodging power is far more ultimately empowering than pursuing it.

Were I to play along, I'd advise the following...Replace the word 'power' with 'money' in your OP and the answers should become clear enough.

 

[ijustprotectedmyidentity]

your definition of power is good. power is the ability to do something.

but i would define power as the ability to do something WITH a rational mind. so power without thought is just a dumb action. (makes power more potent)

power is important to us because power is free will
like what you said OP, POWEr = FREEDOm

how important is power to each of us? - for other people they take pride in their actions and responsibilty, for othres, power is not so important, they like to go with the flow, they are content with being mediocre, they dont use their power, (action + rationality or conscience thought)

how impotant is power to me - im a lazy mofo whos content with mediocrity
and the next question is obvious, freedom is not so important for me

now you may be sayign, " this kid has a shit attitdue" so, lets change ME

how do we obtain power? - self discipline, you can join the army and gain self discipline
how do we utilize power in order to get more power? - i have the power to do this, so ill do this and by doing this action ill gain more experience, more self control, more power

how do we grow our power?- more self discipline

i dont get your question OP, but i think its a simple one that im answering 100percent correctly

 

[Solitaire U.]

So power is obtained through enlisting in the military...interesting.

 

[ijustprotectedmyidentity]

power is gained through self discipline, so it doesn't have to be in the army. i think of life and power and life as an mmorpg game,

you can do more things in life (freedom)
by gaining levels or real life skills
once you master a certain skill set it becomes engrained and you get more power level and more freedom.

 

[Words]

This is an illusion you speak of. Even something regarded within it's class as being relatively powerless...a 20 year old Nissan Sentra (Tsuru) on it's last legs after being used as a Taxi in Mexico City for it's entire life, can run me down and make me just as dead as a semi loaded with 80,000 lbs. of steel girders can. Dodging power is far more ultimately empowering than pursuing it.

Isn't dodging power a power?

Were I to play along, I'd advise the following...Replace the word 'power' with 'money' in your OP and the answers should become clear enough.

If we reduce it to money, then we ignore the rest of the complications. The "clarity of the answer"(meaning what it is) isn't what matters. What matters is how much it answers the questions.

your definition of power is good. power is the ability to do something.

Well then, what is the difference between "ability" and "power"?

but i would define power as the ability to do something WITH a rational mind. so power without thought is just a dumb action. (makes power more potent)

But isn't rational mind already "power"? Won't a dumb person with "monies" be less powerful than a smart person(also with monies)?

power is important to us because power is free will
like what you said OP, POWEr = FREEDOm

Is "power" ever valued for itself? With the idea that power is often regarded as money, money is often valued for itself, yet is power valued for itself?

how important is power to each of us? - for other people they take pride in their actions and responsibilty, for othres, power is not so important, they like to go with the flow, they are content with being mediocre, they dont use their power, (action + rationality or conscience thought)

They don't "use" their power? With the definition I presented, can you ever "not" use your power? Is "maintenance" not achieved through the exertion of power?

how impotant is power to me - im a lazy mofo whos content with mediocrity
and the next question is obvious, freedom is not so important for me

So the less value you place in "power", the less value you place in freedom?

how do we obtain power? - self discipline, you can join the army and gain self discipline
how do we utilize power in order to get more power? - i have the power to do this, so ill do this and by doing this action ill gain more experience, more self control, more power

how do we grow our power?- more self discipline

Why self discipline?

power is gained through self discipline, so it doesn't have to be in the army. i think of life and power and life as an mmorpg game,

you can do more things in life (freedom)
by gaining levels or real life skills
once you master a certain skill set it becomes engrained and you get more power level and more freedom.

Discipline is a skill? Isn't discipline useless without knowledge? Isn't knowledge useless without intelligence?

 

[ijustprotectedmyidentity]

there is to much material to be covered, ask me one specific question, lets try to break it down here.

 

[warryer]

First off: interesting thread!

I like your definition of power. I also like the comparison to money, the best concrete example we have. I think we could also compare it to energy (heat, electricity, potential, kinetic, etc.... ) although it is less understood.

However I would like to say that money should be thought of as a representation of one facet of power. I could be a billionaire but have the comprehension of a 3 year old and not be considered "powerful."

Power is the ability/potential to exercise one's will. The more power one has, the more likely that being's will is the "law of reality" in a living sense.

We could look at the types of symbiosis in the world for clues how to gain/lose power:

-Mutualsim: both benefit
-Commensalism: one benefits, one is neutral
-Parasitism: one benefits, one is harmed
-Amensalism: one is neutral, one is harmed

The greatest disparity of power would come from parasitism, with a difference of 2. Where the others have a difference of 1 or 0.

The best situation would be mutualism where both parties get a chance to increase their power. So being able to share your power with one who could use it to increase their own and vice versa.

 

[Words]

there is to much material to be covered, ask me one specific question, lets try to break it down here.

What is your definition of power?

First off: interesting thread!

I like your definition of power. I also like the comparison to money, the best concrete example we have. I think we could also compare it to energy (heat, electricity, potential, kinetic, etc.... ) although it is less understood.

This made me want to ask what "concrete" is and its relationship to anything else not concrete, and a perception of reality that might involve dividing the world into "concrete", "abstract" and perhaps "cyber"? Are datas concrete? If concrete means physical, are datas physical?

And is it "money" itself that represents power? or the "value" of money? Therefore, Is a "value" concrete? Therefore, can "power" ever be represented as a concretion?

However I would like to say that money should be thought of as a representation of one facet of power. I could be a billionaire but have the comprehension of a 3 year old and not be considered "powerful."

What "facet" of power? Why do you think power have "facets"? Is power one dimensional as in is it from "low power" to "high power", or do you consider "level of power" as forever relative to an arbitrary "facet"?

Power is the ability/potential to exercise one's will. The more power one has, the more likely that being's will is the "law of reality" in a living sense.

Does this align with the idea that power is freedom? Is freedom "one-dimensional"?

We could look at the types of symbiosis in the world for clues how to gain/lose power:

-Mutualsim: both benefit
-Commensalism: one benefits, one is neutral
-Parasitism: one benefits, one is harmed
-Amensalism: one is neutral, one is harmed

The greatest disparity of power would come from parasitism, with a difference of 2. Where the others have a difference of 1 or 0.

The best situation would be mutualism where both parties get a chance to increase their power. So being able to share your power with one who could use it to increase their own and vice versa.

This is a very interesting perspective. Among these, what is the most common situation in today's people? As an individual of today, is the most "practical" situation mutualism(in general)? Or does our capitalist world promote more of "parasitism"?

 

[warryer]

This made me want to ask what "concrete" is and its relationship to anything else not concrete, and a perception of reality that might involve dividing the world into "concrete", "abstract" and perhaps "cyber"? Are datas concrete? If concrete means physical, are datas physical?

What I mean by concrete is that we can physically witness the exchange of power without fully understanding the driving principles. I am of the belief that understanding of abstract reality (or TRUTH) can only come from perceiving it with our senses through the physical (or concrete) reality.

The abstract reality can be filtered in many different ways depending on what the limited physical characteristics of that one particular expression may have. So with each perception of physical reality, we get a "glimpse" of abstract reality. From these various glimpses, we can put the pieces together to gain some understanding. Whether or not this understanding is "total" is unknown.

I think I get what you mean by "cyber." I think this is part of the physical realm. I also think we can agree that data is equivalent to numbers (or quantity). I am of the belief that numbers are a good representation of the abstract "quantity." Through human history, the idea of numbers remains constant; 1 is 1, 2 is 2, etc... (Notice that good representation != perfect representation.)

And is it "money" itself that represents power? or the "value" of money? Therefore, Is a "value" concrete? Therefore, can "power" ever be represented as a concretion?

You would be correct that I was talking more about the value of money. The money itself doesn't have the ability to do anything. Or the ability of a person to buy goods and services.

I am starting to suspect that I will never be able to point at something and say "THAT is power." The best we can hope to do, I think, is create systems which contain power and then control these systems to our benefit (or detriment).

What "facet" of power? Why do you think power have "facets"? Is power one dimensional as in is it from "low power" to "high power", or do you consider "level of power" as forever relative to an arbitrary "facet"?

A facet of power is one expression of power in the human experience. There is physical wealth, knowledge, social power, physical strength, etc.... These are all things which contain power but, not necessarily power itself.

I would say that true power is one-dimensional. However when it expresses itself within the physical realm we can describe power with two-dimensions: more power and less power.

I suppose then we could say that all facets of power could be made equal to each other. It could look something like: 1 unit of money power = 3 units of social power = 10 units of physical strength. This would need some sort of "goal" or "baseline" from which we could measure. A power of powers if you will. This is in danger of slipping down into an infinite regression.

Does this align with the idea that power is freedom? Is freedom "one-dimensional"?

This is an interesting question. I will call freedom the ability to excercise one's will without restriction.

And earlier I said, "Power is the ability/potential to exercise one's will."

So perhaps then freedom represents the total power.

From this I would say that your hypothesis is correct.

Maybe freedom can be the point of measurement from which the "power of powers" can be defined.

This is a very interesting perspective. Among these, what is the most common situation in today's people? As an individual of today, is the most "practical" situation mutualism(in general)? Or does our capitalist world promote more of "parasitism"?

This is something which I have been thinking about over the past month or so. My theory is that the easiest way to get more power is through parasitism. Easiest in that it takes the least amount of effort to obtain.

Parasites themselves, let's say intestinal worms, don't have to set up the systems which already contain the power. They "simply" leech the power out of the system for their own benefit.

Mutualism though could be taking an excess one has and exchanging it for something which is in demand.

Mutualism and Parasitism is on equal footing for the individual that stands to gain. It becomes a moral question which one would choose, if the ability to choose is available.

I think capitalism, in theory, is designed to support mutualism. However due to trust of one another, this dream cannot be realized. - This is a completely different thread though.

 

[Words]

If Power = Ability = Freedom, is a nuclear weapon powerful?

The idea of power is dependent on "subjects"(persons). Why is it dependent on the subject?

What is the relationship between value and power? If things hold value, they are always valuable "to someone". If a thing is valued by someone, that thing can be used to affect(hence, manipulate) that someone. Otherwise, things with value are only objects. "To affect" provides potential for "control". What is the relationship between control, power, and value? With people, values are a main source of power.

Hm...Still the question lies in the search for an encompassing definition of power. We use it to mean many things but there must be a common denominator in all these meanings.

 

[Citizen]

"I am starting to suspect that I will never be able to point at something and say "THAT is power." The best we can hope to do, I think, is create systems which contain power and then control these systems to our benefit (or detriment). "

This.

I found my initial thought was whether or not humans could have power at all, then I realized that within a set system with limitations considered we can achieve power. But that power is still nothing worth if a meteorite comes crashing down and kills us all. Real power, is that not being in complete control of everything around you?

 

[Words]

"I am starting to suspect that I will never be able to point at something and say "THAT is power." The best we can hope to do, I think, is create systems which contain power and then control these systems to our benefit (or detriment). "

This.

I found my initial thought was whether or not humans could have power at all, then I realized that within a set system with limitations considered we can achieve power. But that power is still nothing worth if a meteorite comes crashing down and kills us all. Real power, is that not being in complete control of everything around you?

There is also the "deterministic point of view". How much in control are we? Technically, nil. All things are caused by an almost infinite factors and it is only because of overcomplexity that we feel the need to oversimplify and replace the idea of incomprehensible with the unreal idea of "random".

The focus of the thread is as you say "limited power". Power, in the absolute sense, warrants a more abstract discussion. For now, I'm happy with my little "human-only" box.