Objectify me

[Lot]

I would like to ask the forum about objectification in gaming. In the last couple years it seems to be a popular topic.

I personally don't care that women are objectified in games. I do think they are in many ways, just don't have much of an opinion. I see games as an art form. I think artist have the right to make the their art how ever they like, as long as they don't physically harm people (that don't want to be harmed )

That being said. A common counter argument that is used is, "But men are objectified in games too." (insert neck beard, fleshlight, and 2 liter of mountain dew) The people that make this counter argument use the male character's unrealistically muscular form, and shirtlessness, as examples.

Now this is silly to me. 1) Men for the most part don't mind being "objectified", so it's not really insulting. 2) The point in making these male character wonderful specimen of the male body isn't to make the gamers lust after them. It's to play off of a male fantasy. That's the same reason females are busty and lack clothing.

But I wonder. This question is specifically targeted at female gamers, but males can respond if they see fit. Would you want to play as a protagonist that doesn't fit some common standard for beauty? I mean, like they have lopsided breast, and large exaggerated hook noses, or excessively over weight. What ever it is that you would rate as being unsightly, or might make you feel sorry for them for being born the way they are.

I personally don't like playing as ugly characters, in general. Like if it's a monster, sure, make it ugly. I can even deal with them looking neutral. But I wouldn't want to play an ugly male or female character. (Although, maybe in a comedic way)

Also, general gaming objectification thread.
Here is a video discussing the topic a bit.

Spoiler

http://youtu.be/hR9UMgOFeLw

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Now this is silly to me. 1) Men for the most part don't mind being "objectified", so it's not really insulting. 2) The point in making these male character wonderful specimen of the male body isn't to make the gamers lust after them. It's to play off of a male fantasy. That's the same reason females are busty and lack clothing.

Wouldn't this be attractive for females too? Doesn't this appeal to female fantasy or sense of attraction? There are female-oriented games too.

By the way I would be insulted by being generalised and objectified if I was not in the mood and the intent was negative.

Desire and fantasy are interconnected in many ways.

But I wonder. This question is specifically targeted at female gamers, but males can respond if they see fit. Would you want to play as a protagonist that doesn't fit some common standard for beauty? I mean, like they have lopsided breast, and large exaggerated hook noses, or excessively over weight. What ever it is that you would rate as being unsightly, or might make you feel sorry for them for being born the way they are.

I never cared about graphics. I come from pen and paper rpg's. Being ugly is interesting in a way role playing some kind of ugly necromancer or monk adds flavour to your game. For me being ugly is a text-conceptual description in games, not a representation of your vision of your character in the graphical engine.

If this was the latter I would demand that graphical engines allow me to do anything I wish. Imagination is way underrated.

It doesn't matter what is done in a game, no creative process should be restricted.
Women in games are just abstractions from a general understanding, as are men.
If a game is age-rated this is enough restrictive for consumers to make them understand that beyond 18+ they can expect anything. If they don't like particular creations this would be similar to attacking a controversial work of art or burning/forbidding books that sure happened in the past and sure people didn't understand that the issue was not with the particular object and rather with creativity or freedom of thought.
edit:
Another thought is that while age rating might prevent inapropriate reactions this does not guarantee that the consumer is mature enough to experience the idea/art.

This would rather point that before selecting a product you would have to know what to expect and whether you like it.
As to the criticism that is created by the non-consuming, this is simple restrictive demagoguery.

 

[Minuend]

For me the main problem is that when game designers try to tailor their characters to what they think the majority wants, they end up with incredibly boring and predictable characters.

Perhaps more changing now, but you usually played as a male. Which means that even if the male is overly muscularly and handsome, those are not the only traits he has. He is the hero, fighting, being assertive. His appearance gets somewhat overshadowed by his personality and abilities. You rarely see a male game character trying to use his muscles or body to sex up females to get his way. Neither does there seems to be many cases of females ooglying over the male. I don't think I've encountered that phenomenon, actually.

I don't play many new games that are not strategy or have more than 1-3 main characters, so things might have changed a lot. But I remember how even females who sold weapons or repaired stuff were oogled by the main character(s). Even though they had technological knowledge, their body was still a main focus.

Male characters often have more variety. You have more body types, personality types. Many weird eccentric characters. While even female nerdy types in games are attractive.

Of course there are exceptions. And maybe it has changed since I played more games like that.

I don't find the isolated case of video games problematic, though. And I think it's becoming a less of a problem as women seems to become more recognized for being mentally capable.

Though the overall presentation of both males and females in various popular media is problematic and it's not the kind of role models I would have wanted to present own offspring. It does seem to sneak into minds making them believe that they are supposed to react or be this and that in different situations. Or that other people are like this and that.

As a last note, it's not that problematic in general for men to be objectified because they haven't had the same history of it as women. While there are still many voices out there who thinks women don't go further than their looks and have no talents for brainy stuff. I don't think men will experience this any time soon.

Edit; I forgot about this one: Would you want to play as a protagonist that doesn't fit some common standard for beauty?

I don't really care what the character looks like for the most part. I care more about character depth, gameplay, story.

 

[Jennywocky]

That being said. A common counter argument that is used is, "But men are objectified in games too." (insert neck beard, fleshlight, and 2 liter of mountain dew) The people that make this counter argument use the male character's unrealistically muscular form, and shirtlessness, as examples.

Now this is silly to me. 1) Men for the most part don't mind being "objectified", so it's not really insulting. 2) The point in making these male character wonderful specimen of the male body isn't to make the gamers lust after them. It's to play off of a male fantasy. That's the same reason females are busty and lack clothing.

Agreed. Both do cater to forms of male empowerment fantasy ("I am a powerful stud" and "I am able to get a hot woman").

But I wonder. This question is specifically targeted at female gamers, but males can respond if they see fit. Would you want to play as a protagonist that doesn't fit some common standard for beauty? I mean, like they have lopsided breast, and large exaggerated hook noses, or excessively over weight. What ever it is that you would rate as being unsightly, or might make you feel sorry for them for being born the way they are.

Valid question, and therein lies the complication... as while women don't want to be used as objects in male fantasy, it's pretty clear from the shape and size of the women's cosmetics, women's magazine/media, and women's body-shaping/altering industries (which are very large, perpetuating, and intrusive) that women find some satisfaction and control in being beautiful outwardly. So the fantasy is bad if it's a male projecting it onto her, but it's viewed as desirable if she is choosing it.

I can say that I enjoy play neutral or better looking characters in games and typically do not enjoy playing ugly or ancient characters. At the same time, I get really annoyed when my character has boobs big enough to knock herself out, which are defying gravity due to lack of support she receives from her clothing and who is doing tasks that big boobs would normally prohibit. At that point, I feel like my avatar image has been subverted by a tit-riffic male fantasy.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I dug playing as a flat chick and a fat ugly man in Star Wars Galaxies. Always missed those options in other mmo's

 

[Jennywocky]

I dug playing as a flat chick and a fat ugly man in Star Wars Galaxies. Always missed those options in other mmo's

An obese guy and a flat chick?

You mean, like "Fatman and Ribbon"?

 

[Steven Gerrard]

I don't understand how objectification works.

I agree that it happens.

But I don't really understand how that works.

In pornography two consenting adults are paid to be filmed having sex, and yet somehow this is objectifying to women.

I think it is. I just don't understand how that works.

Jennywocky is that you in your avatar?

 

[Goku]

Does objectify imply something negative?

Plato's theory of Forms or theory of Ideas[1][2][3] asserts that non-material abstract (but substantial) forms (or ideas), and not the material world of change known to us through sensation, possess the highest and most fundamental kind of reality.[4] When used in this sense, the word form or idea is often capitalized.[5] Plato speaks of these entities only through the characters (primarily Socrates) of his dialogues who sometimes suggest that these Forms are the only true objects of study that can provide us with genuine knowledge [...]"

By turning women into objects, or Forms, we are trying to better understand them. They should appreciate this philosophical endeavor, rather than get mad at something they don't understand.

 

[Steven Gerrard]

Turning women into object= forms?

I just realized you could be tongue in cheek?

 

[Amagi82]

By far the best explanation of the problems with objectification in video games that I've ever seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q&list=PLn4ob_5_ttEaA_vc8F3fjzE62esf9yP61

 

[Lot]

By far the best explanation of the problems with objectification in video games that I've ever seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q&list=PLn4ob_5_ttEaA_vc8F3fjzE62esf9yP61

I can't can't watch any of her videos for very long. She uses a great deal of misinformation. Used the large amount of money she got from a kick starter campaign to make those shitty youtube videos and then spent the rest on herself.

But thank you for contributing. I'm sure someone will be able to sit through the video.

 

[Minuend]

I haven't heard of this woman before. Do you have a source that (a great deal of?) money were used for private means?

 

[Lot]

It's been so long. I'll try to dig through and see what I can find. Shouldn't be too hard. I have somewhere I was supposed to be 30 mins ago. So that will have to wait.