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Grayman

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I am not really interested in friends perhaps that is why I have so few if any at all.


But...

I think it wise to ensure that I am not just driving them away through irritation or other negativity on this forum. So what of it? Do you think I need reform?
 

redbaron

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Vita-Brits are kind of a hit or miss thing for most people.
 

Jennywocky

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Are you talking just about online friends or real-life friends... or aren't real-life friends even on the table? Do you have anyone you hang out with IRL?
 

Grayman

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Are you talking just about online friends or real-life friends... or aren't real-life friends even on the table? Do you have anyone you hang out with IRL?

I was speaking about online.

I have a few, litterally two, real life friends and one that I can share my deepest thoughts too. This is all discounting my wife of course.

I was mostly speaking of the forum since I am looking for first hand impressions of how I may be recieved.

I get bored quickly when hanging out with people except for one. My need for deep thinking or creative projects in order to maintain interest wears others out quickly. They seem to become stressed by the discussions I pursue. My sister tells me that I give headaches.

Edit: people that I am not friends with seem to very much enjoy my company in real life. That is likely because I just enjoy time with them instead of getting serious. I dont see these as ever being real because I dont turn on all that is me when socializing with them.
 

Jennywocky

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I was speaking about online.

I have a few, litterally two, real life friends and one that I can share my deepest thoughts too. This is all discounting my wife of course.

I was mostly speaking of the forum since I am looking for first hand impressions of how I may be recieved.

I get bored quickly when hanging out with people except for one. My need for deep thinking or creative projects in order to maintain interest wears others out quickly. They seem to become stressed by the discussions I pursue. My sister tells me that I give headaches.

Okay.

Well, online, I think relational parameters are different -- people come, people go, different levels of investment exist, it's much much more casual than RL friends. There's no real long-term commitment, in a sense; you can blow in and blow out on a whim, you don't even need to explain why. RL friendships are a little different, even in terms of how you engage and the necessary investment to organize, engage, and end a particular engagement.

You're also only getting one perspective on a person... I can read what other people post, and their tone/articulation in writing, but I have no idea what they look like, or what they sound like, or their body language, or their demeanor. None of the personal tangible details of what it's like to interact with others in proximity.

As far as you personally, on the forum you are extremely abstracted to the exclusion of much tangible detail. You're always talking in concepts, some vague; and so it would be difficult for people who need clearer dialogue to stay with you especially on a prolonged period if this is how you talk IRL. (although obviously on this particular forum, you will find more people can track you and want to invest the time to do so.)

It's also very very impersonal, although you do seem to make an effort to project warmth; again, it's very effusive and hard to track if one's brain is not suited to those channels. Do people currently say that your brain seems to "float up there" somewhere much fo the time and have to repeatedly ask you to clarify what you mean?

Have you ever tried nailing some of your ideas to the floor in specific examples, or talk about specific applications? Making it more personal rather than generalized and abstracted?

I think on this forum, you are choosing to engaging in a very generalized way, so you can only expect generalized results. If you want more detailed results / more feelings of focused connection, you should share more specific things rather than generalizing them out. It's one thing to opine in fuzzy ways about the nature of male/female interactions and another to specifically describe a particular incident that happened between you and your wife and exactly how it is impacting you. The first will remain very impersonal (because you've generalized it into the impersonal) and the latter will feel much more personal, because you've left it specific.. and specific to YOU, so that we have learned something about YOU and not just human beings in general.

I think close friends are more based on the latter sharing of details. We are not close friends with "humanity," we build friendships with particular human beings that we share details of our lives with.

Since this doesn't seem as natural a process for you, it would probably take some conscious investment of energy. You would have to weigh things out and decide how much you were willing to invest.
 

Ex-User (8886)

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I think the most important thing is to have at least one good friend, with who you can share all your thoughts, also theese dark, evil, or scientific.
 

Grayman

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@ Jennywocky

I am thinking about how to respond to you post but right now I am hoping you can tell me what you think of this, I guess poem. Eventually I will relate it back to the topic but I need input on it for a college grad also so I want to get it out there first without any background noise messing up your first impression.

******
Respect, Vision, Mind, Hope

JohnD is a man of vision. He is a man of words and heartfelt understanding. He is a man I respect. He is a man that people can be proud of.

Life is full of the unknown and many fear to tread it. Many will take the road that is known. Many will seek a path that is laid with stone and signs. These are common men. JohnD is not of the common path. In his vision he saw another path. The path was unknown. It was full of fear and struggle but JohnD is a man of hope and faith. He tread the path and seeks an end most will never see. Certainly he is a man that most could never be.
 

Jennywocky

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Very general, very unspecific. It's all about broad qualities; JohnD sounds like an archetype, not a specific person.

Is it a recommendation for someone? In that case, the amount of text you can use is limited (single sheet of paper?), but right now I have nothing specific to remember about JohnD.

You can still label him with these qualities, but I recommend provide a specific example (short but specific) of at least the two most important qualities you know about JohnD. Until you do that, you are telling me he has your respect and has vision, but I have no idea why you think that; and anyone can say those kinds of things about anyone.

This snippet of text very much aligns with what I told you in my last post -- I'm looking for something specific that led you to your conclusions, and there's nothing there... there's just generalized conceptual output but I don't know how you got there. For example, there's a difference between "JohnD took an unknown path full of fear and struggle" and "JohnD was born into a conservative Muslim family but came to believe in Judaism and decided to live according to those customs and faith despite him being rejected by his family and even threatened with violence, despite knowing for sure how things would turn out." Or maybe, "JohnD saw a need to help homeless children in his community but got little help from people of influence. He continued to invest time despite having his work hours cut back and taking a pay cut, because he needed to spend more time talking to people and building presence to fund the project. JohnD eventually did raise funding for a home w/ staff that is currently housing 30 homeless kids." These specific examples are far more intriguing and also make your point for you, I can draw the conclusion on my own. I would feel like I know JohnD.
 

Grayman

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@ Jennywocky

Second analysis for testing theories... Let me know what you see in this one.

A strong willed bird sat in the tree with its little hatchlings. Joyfully the bird danced humor and laughter around the chirping chicks. When the fun was to end and the nuturing to begin, she brought forth her chicks full of confidence.
There was nothing greater to this mother than to have these chicks reach their self defined destiny. She gently pushed with a chirp of insistence and a chick stretched and flexed its wings letting go of the nest to fall into faiths arms. The chick was no longer in fall. Its wings stretched and the wind caught raising the chick in free spirited flight. The mother cried a chirp goodbye. In her heart was a void of missing filled in with a mountain of pride.
When this was all complete and I pulled away my eyes with a tear I decided on a perfect name for such a willful bird. A perfect name for a mother such as this, I called her Jennywock. It was all so fitting.

Did it seem personal to you? I dont know a lot about you but this is some of what I see in you.
 

StevenM

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So what of it? Do you think I need reform?

That depends on what you think, and feel. Are things okay the way it is? Are you happy with your current situation? Can you sustain with what you have?

I have also just a few good friends, and they generally enjoy my company as well. I find they are a vital aspect to my life because they help me get out of my head. They change my perspective of reality into something more positive.

Having a few good friends is great, but I have to realize that it isn't rock-solid or permanent. Things happen, and I might need a backup plan, because in my experience, friends come and go. This is where making an effort to network some acquaintances becomes useful. A good source of them are connected to the people that I know (my friend's friends), and also work, and school.

I think it wise to ensure that I am not just driving them away through irritation or other negativity on this forum.

If there was any negative reactions, or irritation, I'm sure your fellow INTP's will have no problem telling you right there. I think it's okay to assume that a lack of feedback infers no hard feelings. If you are interested in knowing more about someone on the forum, make an effort to show your interest. Someone has to be first to initiate contact.

I hope I didn't misunderstand your question.
 

Jennywocky

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@ Jennywocky

Second analysis for testing theories... Let me know what you see in this one.

A strong willed bird sat in the tree with its little hatchlings. Joyfully the bird danced humor and laughter around the chirping chicks. When the fun was to end and the nuturing to begin, she brought forth her chicks full of confidence.
There was nothing greater to this mother than to have these chicks reach their self defined destiny. She gently pushed with a chirp of insistence and a chick stretched and flexed its wings letting go of the nest to fall into faiths arms. The chick was no longer in fall. Its wings stretched and the wind caught raising the chick in free spirited flight. The mother cried a chirp goodbye. In her heart was a void of missing filled in with a mountain of pride.
When this was all complete and I pulled away my eyes with a tear I decided on a perfect name for such a willful bird. A perfect name for a mother such as this, I called her Jennywock. It was all so fitting.

Did it seem personal to you? I dont know a lot about you but this is some of what I see in you.

Well, it conveys a picture, I guess, but again; it's entirely abstracted. I have mixed feelings. It does accurately capture something about me: I'll place the well-being and actualization of the people I care about ahead of my own having them in my life, without any real fanfare -- which is both a painful sacrifice for me (because I end up alone) + a source of joy at seeing them live.

But it's basically a metaphor. You could know that about me, yet not know anything specific enough about me to be able to relate to me if you met me face to face. And it's only part of who I am.

You wouldn't see me laughing under my breath as I push them out of the nest without warning, because I know they'll fly and be okay but at the same time they're probably thinking, "WTF ARE YOU DOING???" and screaming on their way down. (It's darkly hilarious.)

Or the fear of maybe I screwed up after all, and I have to make sure I can dive out and grab them before they hit.

Or part of the indifference that can develop amid exhaustion, where I don't care if they crash because I did my best and now I'm tired and it's up to them to live or die, and if they don't, then they weren't strong enough or committed enough to live.

Or the self-judging of how callous I must be to not care and to think in terms of survival.

Or the embarrassment over being used as a metaphorical example unexpectedly, while in a sense appreciating that someone does grasp a litle bit of me.

.... But I think getting back to the topic at hand: If you want to feel a real connection with people, the more focused and specific you can make it, the longer it will endure. When you connect in broad abstracted ways, it tends not to last because the rubber band is so long and vague that it does nothing to keep someone in contact. It's the specifics that "flesh in the details" and make someone real and stick in your head versus just being a metaphor or archetype of a "type" of person.
 

Grayman

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This didn't get percieved entirely how I saw it in my mind. It was more literally a reference to your playful nature but when people need help you get serious and step in. It was also a more direct represention of how id see you with your kids. You seek to make them individuals and free spirits instead of keeping them tied to the nest.


I suppose I am not very good at this...

I have made a few people cry with joy lately. The sad part is that I had no intention of trying to relate emotionally. I was simply stating facts.

The thing is that I dont remember things in the past very well so I cannot express that. I can only express what my current understanding is based on my feelings and intuition. So, I express a conclusion without how I derived to it.
 

Jennywocky

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This didn't get percieved entirely how I saw it in my mind. It was more literally a reference to your playful nature but when people need help you get serious and step in. It was also a more direct represention of how id see you with your kids. You seek to make them individuals and free spirits instead of keeping them tied to the nest.

Yeah. And that is descriptive of me (so thank you) -- I'm going through that now with a kid at college, another graduating, my third just turned 16.

But the metaphors aren't necessarily the basis of a long, close connection, that's all -- which is more "rubber meets road" stuff, and what it seemed like you were asking about. You want to know how to connect with people and maintain close friendships rather than people who drift away.

I have made a few people cry with joy lately. The sad part is that I had no intention of trying to relate emotionally. I was simply stating facts.

:) Sometimes we can do that for people and not have any clue that what we are saying will impact them so deeply. It happens. But it's also good to follow up on -- so they can share with you what triggered that response, and you can be closer.

The thing is that I dont remember things in the past very well so I cannot express that. I can only express what my current understanding is based on my feelings and intuition. So, I express a conclusion without how I derived to it.

yeah, that's what I am seeing -- you are good with presenting your conclusions, but you don't seem to include the intervening detail that got you to the conclusion. Yet a lot of life is lived in that detail that we often just see as messy math to arrive at an answer... just like stories are about the journey and not just the ending.

Is there a way for you to "live in the moment" with people, even if you can't remember it later as easily?
 

Grayman

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Is there a way for you to "live in the moment" with people, even if you can't remember it later as easily?

That is generally what I do but people are often are still looking for some kind data reiteration. I understand why the do it, to feel a connection as if we are sharing the experience in the same way. I can stare at a mountain and convince myself for mere moments that it is beautiful but the feeling passes and I am ready to move on while everyone else wants to stare at it as if there were more importance in it than just being a beautiful mountain. I will forget it's image the next day. Everyone else will talk about it and I will be lost trying to find anything worth reiterating myself as if I could find any importance beyond expressing what they already saw themselves. If I simply state the obvious would they think I am like them.....?

I dont mind being alone but if I have do such things due to the experiences of life I wish I could somehow relate and enjoy some of the day and not have find enjoyment in my own mind the whole time.


As far as making really close friends.... I can relate to one or two well enough as the majority of the experience is conceptual and strategic in a creative way. We share an understanding and purpose.
 

Grayman

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@Jennywocky

Yes, I don't like to admit it but it but my disconnect from people has bothered me some. This was not what spurred my desire to make this thread but it has been brought out and is a good revelation nonetheless.

The desire of making that thread was initiated from an incident of a poster in another forum telling me not to converse with him anymore. It was clear I irritated him. It made me worry that I was doing the same to others.

It was like this...
I told him it seems he has an emotional wall up. I reinforced that I was just trying to not misunderstand him so I was giving him my impressions of himself hoping for him to correct them. He stated I psychoanalyzed him too much and he was insulted. I said that it not my intention to insult him just to correct my initial impression of him and to get a better understanding of where his stance is on the issue we were discussing. I said that his accusation of me insulting him is making it harder from me to put aside those initial impressions to understand him fully. He basically closed the gate on me. I was wondering if I was doing this on the forums here but then I guess part of me knew I was pushing him more than he could handle and I knew he had a wall up and I was trying to bring it down. It is only expected he would react to it.

The walls of INTP seem different than I saw with him....We create them with objective reason and he made his out of... something unfamiliar. Maybe avoidance is a good term.

Anyways you brought up a lot of stuff outside of that I hadn't recognized until you pointed it out. I mean I was aware that people rarely understood me but I had thought it different here and so I allowed myself to express in ways I crave to express myself otherwise and had allowed it to go even further than normal.
I feel like when I talk to people in real life I have to lay it out a->b->c->d instead of just dropping the concept for everyone to pick apart. I suppose the linear approach does occur after I drop the intuitive concept bomb anyways. What you saying grayman???? Oh... this this this this. :)
 
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