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IxTP, very close S/N preferences. Good or Bad?

trevo4311

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So i've taken multiple free MBTI tests and I always score as either an INTP or ISTP. I'm guessing that means that my S and N are really close, which I'm not sure if thats good or bad. Yesterday I took a test that said my N is 53% and my S is 47%. I know those percents don't mean much but they are very close. After reading the comparison of S/N on MyPersonality I can't really decided between either N or S because I have characteristics of both traits.

These are the results of a test I took yesterday:
228978.png


So would you say that having close preferences is good or bad? why?
 

thoumyvision

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Do you prefer doing stuff or thinking about doing stuff?
 

trevo4311

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It's hard to say, I like to think about things and sometimes i will space out and get lost in my own thoughts. But I also like to be doing things like playing video games or reading stuff on the internet (which could also be considered thinking). So I can't really say I like doing one more than the other because I enjoy doing both. :confused:
 

thoumyvision

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Sensing is action oriented, reading and playing video games are much more brain oriented than physical. S-types, even ISTP's with their introverted thinking, take pleasure in physical activity. In ISTP's it usually presents as an interest in solo sports like skiing, running, etc. Sensing people are interested in physical sensation, intuitives on the other hand want their brains stimulated with ideas, stories, theories, etc.
 

trevo4311

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True, but I do like sports and such, just not as much as I used too. I am naturally athletic and very coordinated so I do enjoy sports and i am pretty good at most sports. I also consider Videos games to be like a sport because you are usually using teamwork, working towards a goal, reacting to situations, ect. And skill is very much present in video games, they take practice just like any other sport. You also use some of your senses when playing video games, like sight and sound, and to a lesser extent touch.

I do enjoy exploring and being outdoors as long as I have something to do, if I want to just think I'll usually stay inside in the air conditioning because it gets pretty hot in Florida. I'm starting to think my intuitive side might be just slightly more dominant than my sensing but not by a lot. And If I remember correctly when I read both ISTP/INTP personalities I identify more with ISTP but not by much, so thats where the confusion comes in.

I have played a lot of different sports and there are some that I like, for example: Football, snowboarding, basketball, and mountain biking.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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Do you know what Se-Ni and Ne-Si mean?
 

pjoa09

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I also get very close to the line, I had twice tested as an ISTP.

It would be very helpful if we can get to the bottom of this thread.

I would like to settle my INTP or ISTPness.

I fit INTP description for behavior patterns.

But I have a very loyal and brotherly attitude with my friends.

I prefer to have personal space and am extremely joyous when I do have it.

I believe my IxTP situation is actually a mixture of S and N.

I am very much unaware of my surroundings and can't remember details. Yet, I enjoy Basketball,Go-Karting, Racing Games, Guitar , and occasionally drawing imaginative creatures or scenarios . I was once obsessive about Basketball but as situations have changed I have had to let go of that activity.

I used to enjoy playing with flammable material and liquids as a child and was allowed to do so. I would burn brown sugar, firecrackers, newspapers, spray paint, and deodorant .

As dangerous and hazardous these activities could be and I was aware of the possibilities, I always was impulsive about it.

One time I made a bridge of books from a desk to a desk and I was impressed by how sturdy it was. I also tried hammering metal over coal with mediocre success. (Yeah I know it wasn't hot enough)

At the very same time, I space out frequently and have been accused of being disorganized, dreamy, and nick named "Sputnik" .

Sometimes I would use music to facilitate imaginations of speed.

It is indeed very odd when compared to MBTI.

To use an intuitive behavior to emulate a sensory experience.

I enjoy long drives, staring out at beach, staring out at roads, staring at clocks, breezy gas stations , reading about motor vehicles extensively, and enjoy learning programming when I have copious amounts of time around my office computer .

This is a rather detailed post as I would wish to distinguish myself. I hate being IxTP because it isn't an MBTI type.
 

SkyWalker

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If we assume MBTI to be valid:

S/N are not indicators that you can use stand-alone (they can only be used in context of the total MBTI 4 letter code), because there is not just S/N, there is Se, Si, Ne, Ni. It does not make sense to say I am a S or N dominant person. It only makes sense to say I am a Se, Si, Ne, Ni dominant.

Si-Ni, and Se-Ne are both polar opposites and thus impossible combinations, e.g. you cannot function with both at the same time in this reality. But mixes of Ne-Si or Se-Ni are possible.

The function order of INTP is:
1 Ti
2 Ne
3 Si
4 Fe

As you can see, Ne & Si are very close, thus all INTPs have reasonable balance in Ne/Si.

If you would be more imbalanced in Ne&Si then you would become for example ENTP (very strong Ne, very weak Si):
1 Ne
2 Ti
3 Fe
4 Si
 

Artsu Tharaz

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So basically you have to think: do you interpret what's going on around you in terms of the literal sense data of the situation, or based on a sort of "flow" of ideas. Both of these are flowing sort of process, but what they focus on is totally different. Sensing perceives a linear path, intuition perceives more of a spectrum of possibilities. One of these will apply to how you interpret the environment, the other will occur in your thoughts.

You should have a sort of "backup" thought style where your thoughts just flow, as opposed to your usual style which should revolve around more deliberate analytical thought processes. When you have this flow, are the thoughts of a literal, sense based kind (e.g. memories exactly as they happened) or a more conceptual kind (e.g. dreamy sort of memories, where you know what happened on a conceptual level but not any details)?

So do you: interpret in the moment, and store things literally, or view things literally in the moment, and store them in an interpreted way

I hope this distinction accurate captures what it is to be Ne-Si vs. Se-Ni!
 

pjoa09

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So basically you have to think: do you interpret what's going on around you in terms of the literal sense data of the situation, or based on a sort of "flow" of ideas. Both of these are flowing sort of process, but what they focus on is totally different. Sensing perceives a linear path, intuition perceives more of a spectrum of possibilities. One of these will apply to how you interpret the environment, the other will occur in your thoughts.

You should have a sort of "backup" thought style where your thoughts just flow, as opposed to your usual style which should revolve around more deliberate analytical thought processes. When you have this flow, are the thoughts of a literal, sense based kind (e.g. memories exactly as they happened) or a more conceptual kind (e.g. dreamy sort of memories, where you know what happened on a conceptual level but not any details)?

So do you: interpret in the moment, and store things literally, or view things literally in the moment, and store them in an interpreted way

I hope this distinction accurate captures what it is to be Ne-Si vs. Se-Ni!

aye, intuitive it is. My thoughts continually flow over a topic and that is why I can't regain awareness of my surrounding.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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aye, intuitive it is. My thoughts continually flow over a topic and that is why I can't regain awareness of my surrounding.

Do you conceive of your thoughts as gaining from the external environment? You always essentially still have your extraverted function "running", in waiting for anything that may happen. Ne is always keeping its eye out for ideas, Se always has its eye out for anything sense based.

Pay attention to how your tertiary function shapes your thoughts also - if you are INTP you should see a very strong Si slant to how you think, i.e. content will be given to you in the form of facts. On the other hand, ISTP will have an Ni slant to it; the content of your thoughts will be more fluid, as per general ideas.
 

trevo4311

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So basically you have to think: do you interpret what's going on around you in terms of the literal sense data of the situation, or based on a sort of "flow" of ideas. Both of these are flowing sort of process, but what they focus on is totally different. Sensing perceives a linear path, intuition perceives more of a spectrum of possibilities. One of these will apply to how you interpret the environment, the other will occur in your thoughts.

You should have a sort of "backup" thought style where your thoughts just flow, as opposed to your usual style which should revolve around more deliberate analytical thought processes. When you have this flow, are the thoughts of a literal, sense based kind (e.g. memories exactly as they happened) or a more conceptual kind (e.g. dreamy sort of memories, where you know what happened on a conceptual level but not any details)?

So do you: interpret in the moment, and store things literally, or view things literally in the moment, and store them in an interpreted way

I hope this distinction accurate captures what it is to be Ne-Si vs. Se-Ni!

I think I view things literally and store them in an interpreted way. My thought usually are pretty detailed, but not to an extreme, only the important details get remember nothing too minute.

When I have that "flow" of thoughts Its usually just dreamy ideas but sometimes its also past experiences. My thoughts usually branch off from one another, like I could be thinking about why the earth has gravity one second then ill be thinking about how clouds float, then why it rains, then why water is necessary to life, then what is the meaning to life, then if there is life on other planets, then is our government keeping secrets about aliens from the public, then about how corrupt our government is, and they'll keep branching off from that sometimes ending up so far from what I was originally thinking that i get confused to how I ended up thinking about that.

But If i'm thinking about past experiences I usually break down and analyze what I did right/wrong and then think of what I should have done or how I'd go about repeating what I did correctly. Sometimes I'll get into thinking about a different experience or even a new idea depending on what i was previously thinking about.

IDK if that answers your question or not.

I should also add that if I am specifically thinking about something i'll be able to stay one topic for the most part, my thoughts only branch off when i'm thinking about nothing in particular.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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Ok, so I don't think "thinking" was the right term to use in terms of your flowing thoughts.

Do you always have your "eye out" for changes in the physical environment, or for new ideas that will present themselves? It sounds to me like you have a literal store of primarily conceptual ideas, rather than a conceptual store of primarily literal ideas. I could be wrong.
 

trevo4311

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I can't really say which I watch for. I notice most changes but sometimes I wont notice the minute changes, however sometimes I notice small changes that others overlook. But If an idea or challenge presents itself I will jump right on it. When i'm just observing without a purpose I generally am watching for things that are changing but I'm also waiting for something new that I can learn.

Again thats a hard question for me to answer because I feel like I do both of those and not one more than the other. I'm always trying to learn through observation but I am also watching for changes in my environment.

Also I'm not really sure what you mean by literal store of conceptual ideas or conceptual store of literal ideas. It would probably help if you gave me examples of each.:confused:
 

thoumyvision

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Here's an example of the difference between N and S that might help. Unless I concentrate on a detail I'll forget it. Like bringing a dvd set to a friend so he can borrow it, or remembering to grab my pager out of my car on my way into work. I have to consciously pay attention to details like this or they will be lost to me. That's one of the hallmarks of the tertiary function, it requires conscious use to be used at all. The auxiliary requires conscious development in the beginning but can get to the point where it is used without thinking about it. The tertiary won't be used unless you think about it. So in my case I have to think about noticing details (my Si) in order for me to notice them at all. Things like whether the trash needs taking out, or if I need a haircut. INTPs in general are stereotyped as absent-minded because we have to concentrate to notice physical details, and if we're lost in our primary pair the world outside ceases to exist.
 

pjoa09

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Do you conceive of your thoughts as gaining from the external environment? You always essentially still have your extraverted function "running", in waiting for anything that may happen. Ne is always keeping its eye out for ideas, Se always has its eye out for anything sense based.

Pay attention to how your tertiary function shapes your thoughts also - if you are INTP you should see a very strong Si slant to how you think, i.e. content will be given to you in the form of facts. On the other hand, ISTP will have an Ni slant to it; the content of your thoughts will be more fluid, as per general ideas.

hmm..

I have two forms of thought, mindless and mindful.

mindless should be Ni as in I think in one long flow that is often recursive while progressive. The progression results to more ideas and contemplation on the possibility or possibilities.

mindful should be Si , as I take in facts imagine where they are and what the problems could be at their given places. It is a very obvious problem solving method that I always use. I think of what could go wrong in the system and see if these things have gone wrong.

I am generally unaware of my surroundings but if there is something that is of interest or I find appealing I will notice them very quickly. Such as cars that I admire.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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hmm..

I have two forms of thought, mindless and mindful.

mindless should be Ni as in I think in one long flow that is often recursive while progressive. The progression results to more ideas and contemplation on the possibility or possibilities.

mindful should be Si , as I take in facts imagine where they are and what the problems could be at their given places. It is a very obvious problem solving method that I always use. I think of what could go wrong in the system and see if these things have gone wrong.

I am generally unaware of my surroundings but if there is something that is of interest or I find appealing I will notice them very quickly. Such as cars that I admire.

What is your main way of thinking like?
 

pjoa09

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What is your main way of thinking like?

well mindless thinking obviously but I don't use it when I am confronted with a problem.

It's not thought it's just this rambling in my head. I don't need to process I don't need to hold back and put facts where they belong it is this on going flow of thoughts.

i.e. I watched all of the Star Wars Episodes in a couple of days and I think about it every time I am off guard. In the shower, typing documents, walking around, taking a shit, etc.

It doesn't lead me anywhere but it flows through my head. In mornings especially, I will be thinking about a dream and I would think about it like it happened and I would be like stop don't think about the dream but I can't stop it.

But in short it is the most commonly used.

However, when I am alert and dominantly focused I will resort to mindful.


And one more detail, when I watch movies, I think it is normal, but I will mindlessly drift through the "what ifs".
 

Artsu Tharaz

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Well, I probably can't help with typing between S/N, but if a bunch of INTPs and ISTPs get together and talk about what they think about, and how they interact with the environment, the differences should start to make themselves clear.

So, presumably your main thinking style is due to Ti - you are analysing various things as they come up. I would personally think that your what ifs = Ne, thinking about things you've previously experienced as you experienced them = Si, so type you as INTP on that basis.

To contrast, I think an ISTP would probably have a better idea of the linear path a story would take, rather than all the what ifs, and when thinking, there won't be much focus on specific things they'd experienced, but the concepts that were tied in to those things, with literal details removed.
 

pjoa09

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Well, I probably can't help with typing between S/N, but if a bunch of INTPs and ISTPs get together and talk about what they think about, and how they interact with the environment, the differences should start to make themselves clear.

So, presumably your main thinking style is due to Ti - you are analysing various things as they come up. I would personally think that your what ifs = Ne, thinking about things you've previously experienced as you experienced them = Si, so type you as INTP on that basis.

To contrast, I think an ISTP would probably have a better idea of the linear path a story would take, rather than all the what ifs, and when thinking, there won't be much focus on specific things they'd experienced, but the concepts that were tied in to those things, with literal details removed.

Yeah I must be a paranoid INTP.

I guess I am an INTP and the thrills I seek are simply biological.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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Yeah I must be a paranoid INTP.

I guess I am an INTP and the thrills I seek are simply biological.

Of course, you shouldn't take my word for it. Go to an ISTP forum, and see how their ways of thinking through things differs from the way of thinking here, and which fits you best.

What kind of thrills do you seek specifically (or at least, as specific as you'd like to go)?
 

Artsu Tharaz

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@ trevo4311 you don't feel to me like an INTP. I recommend the same advice as per the above post. Also, have you looked into INTJ? I think you have Ni, and it's possible that the S score comes from the Te, and being a more balanced person.
 

trevo4311

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The first time I took an MBTI test I scored as INTJ but recently all my tests I have scored INTP or ISTP. However out of the three INTJ is the one I identify with the least. And I don't really think I am a J. I mean I am very slightly but I identify with more things for P than J.

I re-read the INTJ profile and it seems like me but no more than INTP or ISTP. Most of it was correct but some of it isn't accurate all of the time.
 

Raskolnikov

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You could try taking this in-depth MBTI quiz that tests not just your N/S but specifically your Ni, Si, Ne, Se etc.

Moreover, if that doesn't help you could further study the descriptions for the various functions and how they relate to each other, and decide for yourself.

But in the end an internet quiz isn't enough to accurately type someone who's so close on the border. If you're that serious about it you could even try having a professional psychologist test you - otherwise, perhaps just be content with knowing you're a balanced individual.
 

trevo4311

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I took that test and these were my results:

Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ************************* (25.9)
average use
introverted Sensing (Si) *************************** (27.6)
average use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ************************ (24.5)
average use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ***************************** (29.4)
average use
extraverted Thinking (Te) ******************************************** (44)
excellent use
introverted Thinking (Ti) **************************************** (40.8)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ************ (12)
unused
introverted Feeling (Fi) ************************************ (36.6)
excellent use
Summary Analysis of Profile

By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: INTJ
 

pjoa09

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Of course, you shouldn't take my word for it. Go to an ISTP forum, and see how their ways of thinking through things differs from the way of thinking here, and which fits you best.

What kind of thrills do you seek specifically (or at least, as specific as you'd like to go)?

Yeah I was there once. "I am very high on sensing 66.958% infact". ROC (Roll Over and Cringe)

It was very agitating.

Turns out they pay attention in class because they can't daydream.

How the fuck?

Anyway enough with the rant I will take that detailed test and label myself once and for all an INTP. Even if I wasn't I'd rather hangout here than some ISTP forum. They'd make me feel like a real outcast. Infact even INTJs make me feel more comfortable than ISTPs .
 

pjoa09

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Cognitive ProcessLevel of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)extraverted Sensing (Se) ******************** (20.1)
limited use
introverted Sensing (Si) ********************************** (34.9)
good use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *************************************** (39.9)
excellent use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ********************************* (33.9)
good use
extraverted Thinking (Te) *************************** (27.7)
average use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ***************************************** (41.2)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ********* (9.1)
unused
introverted Feeling (Fi) ******************************** (32.8)
good use
Summary Analysis of Profile
By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: INTP
 

Artsu Tharaz

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I wouldn't trust that (or any) test. e.g. Notice the oddly high Fi scores? @pjoa, everything seems to suggest INTP, as for trevo, I can't see a clear pick. Don't pay attention to descriptions at all - look purely at functions.

First try and identify if you are Ji+Pe or Pi+Je, and try to identify your function pairs (Ni+Se or Ne+Si, Fe+Ti or Te+Fi). Then put them together and see if it gives a plausible type.
 

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Artsu Tharaz said:
e.g. Notice the oddly high Fi scores?
That test as with all others is far from perfect, and I think the inflated Fi scores might highlight just how difficult it is to accurately gauge some of the "magical" or highly arbitrary functions. However I don't think the results should be dismissed on that basis alone, as the seemingly inflated Fi doesn't appear to skew the end result in most cases.

Moreover, just from personal observation I'd say that INTP's probably do possess a higher usage of Fi than most other T's (as in, we're more inclined to be moved by strong emotion over reason, despite how hard we try to suppress and hide it).
 

Artsu Tharaz

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That test as with all others is far from perfect, and I think the inflated Fi scores might highlight just how difficult it is to accurately gauge some of the "magical" or highly arbitrary functions. However I don't think the results should be dismissed on that basis alone, as the seemingly inflated Fi doesn't appear to skew the end result in most cases.

Moreover, just from personal observation I'd say that INTP's probably do possess a higher usage of Fi than most other T's, and even though it's a shadow function it may get more usage than Fe.

It does tend to give a roughly accurate typing, as does any test. However, this doesn't help you narrow down your type to a single option.
 

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Artsu Tharaz said:
It does tend to give a roughly accurate typing, as does any test. However, this doesn't help you narrow down your type to a single option..
The point of that quiz isn't just to type you though. Learning about the specific cognitive functions and how they relate to one's own psychology is paramount to achieving a full understanding of oneself. If a quiz can tell you that you definitely use one function and definitely don't use another function, this can greatly help to narrow the options. That information cannot be achieved via a more shallow quiz that only attempts to gauge the four basic dichotomies based on superficial reasoning; and while it can be achieved through self-studies, tools like this are definitely a help.
 

trevo4311

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The more I look into it the more I think I'm an INTJ but i still seem exactly like an INTP maybe i have really close Pi-Je or Pe-Ji I'm not really sure how to tell exactly which one though.
 

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trevo4311 said:
maybe i have really close Pi-Je or Pe-Ji
P and J aren't functions. P indicates an extroverted information gathering function (Se/Ne), and J indicates an extroverted decision making function (Te/Fe). ie. intJ's have Introverted iNtuition and Extroverted Thinking, while intP's have Introverted Thinking and Extroverted iNtuition.

The two types are similar, but there are some very clear distinctions when you look a bit deeper. I'm sure there are already many threads on this forum discussing the differences.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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The more I look into it the more I think I'm an INTJ but i still seem exactly like an INTP maybe i have really close Pi-Je or Pe-Ji I'm not really sure how to tell exactly which one though.

For you to have close P/J sides you would either have to have a close Ni+Te with Fi+Se, or Ti+Ne with Si+Fe, or Ti+Se with Ni+Fe. Just try and get an intuitive feel for what each of Ji, Je, Pi and Pe are, and when you are using each. This should eventually make it clear.

Also, you might want to have a look at how socionics describes each of the types, and see if any fit you best from that perspective.
 

Raskolnikov

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Artsu Tharaz said:
Just try and get an intuitive feel for what each of Ji, Je, Pi and Pe are, and when you are using each.
There's no such thing as Ji, Je, Pi, or Pe. J and P always indicate extraversion: All P means is Extraverted iNtuition or Sensing. All J means is Extraverted Thinking or Feeling. Nothing else.

Though you have the right idea; just change that to thinking and intuiting functions.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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There's no such thing as Ji, Je, Pi, or Pe. J and P always indicate extraversion: All P means is Extraverted iNtuition or Sensing. All J means is Extraverted Thinking or Feeling. Nothing else.

Though you have the right idea; just change that to thinking and intuiting functions.

errr. J in your type code means your main MBTI extraverted function is J, so your main pair is Je+Pi; similarly, P is Pe+Ji. You can use all of Je, Ji, Pe and Pi however one of these is your dominant/primary and is almosst always in use.

Are you saying you deny the existence of Ti vs. Te etc.?
 

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Artsu Tharaz said:
errr. J in your type code means your main MBTI extraverted function is J, so your main pair is Je+Pi; similarly, P is Pe+Ji. You can use all of Je, Ji, Pe and Pi however one of these is your dominant/primary and is almosst always in use.
That's not how it works. I've already explained it twice. Je/Pe don't need to exist because extroversion is always implied with the usage of J and P. Likewise, Ji/Pi do not need to exist; the I/E dichotomy determines whether the primary function is introverted or extroverted. Pi/Ji is an oxymoron.

For example: Te-Ni =/= Je-Pi; Te-Ni = E-J

Ni-Te = I-J (INTJ) - The I indicates an introverted primary function (Ni), the J indicates an extroverted Judging function (Te). There is no missing information here.

Ti-Ne = I-P (INTP)

Se-Fi = E-P (ESFP)

etc.

I'll link this again.

If you still disagree, care to point me in the direction of a single scholarly/published resource that refers to 'Ji-Pe' or 'Pi-Je' etc.?
 

thoumyvision

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Artsu is right in that the difference between J and P people is that those whose perceiving function is extroverted are P and those whose judging function is extroverted are J. However, Artsu, that difference is never annotated Pe or Je etc. The "P" in INTP does indicate that the perceiving function is extroverted, but that is annotated Ne, not Pe.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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That's not how it works. I've already explained it twice. Je/Pe don't need to exist because extroversion is always implied with the usage of J and P. Likewise, Ji/Pi do not need to exist; the I/E dichotomy determines whether the primary function is introverted or extroverted. Pi/Ji is an oxymoron.

For example: Te-Ni =/= Je-Pi; Te-Ni = E-J

Ni-Te = I-J (INTJ) - The I indicates an introverted primary function (Ni), the J indicates an extroverted Judging function (Te). There is no missing information here.

Ti-Ne = I-P (INTP)

Se-Fi = E-P (ESFP)

etc.

I'll link this again.

If you still disagree, care to point me in the direction of a single scholarly/published resource that refers to 'Ji-Pe' or 'Pi-Je' etc.?

lol dude I have no idea what you're even trying to say.

Je means "extraverted judging function". If you say Je doesn't exist, then you are saying that there is no extraverted judging function, e.g. no Te.
 

Raskolnikov

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Artsu Tharaz said:
lol dude I have no idea what you're even trying to say.
Yeah...I know.:slashnew:

Artsu Tharaz said:
Je means "extraverted judging function".
No. Just J means "extroverted judging function". There is no e.

Artsu Tharaz said:
If you say Je doesn't exist, then you are saying that there is no extraverted judging function, e.g. no Te.
I don't know how I could possibly explain it any more thoroughly without repeating myself ad-nauseum. I suggest you actually read a book or two on MBTI/the cognitive functions. I'm done trying to explain.

Me said:
If you still disagree, care to point me in the direction of a single scholarly/published resource that refers to 'Ji-Pe' or 'Pi-Je' etc.?
 

Artsu Tharaz

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raskolnikov said:

So then, you don't think introverted judging functions exist? da fuck bro. Or are you referring to the fact that the functions should properly be referred to as rational and irrational, and judging and perceiving applied to people? In which case, sure, but then why not just say that?

J type = Je + Pi = extraverted rational + introverted irrational
 

Raskolnikov

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So then, you don't think introverted judging functions exist?
:confused:

I'm pretty sure you're not reading my posts and/or trying to troll me?

If you still disagree, care to point me in the direction of a single scholarly/published resource that refers to 'Ji-Pe' or 'Pi-Je' etc.?
 

EyeSeeCold

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:confused:

I'm pretty sure you're not reading my posts and/or trying to troll me?

If you still disagree, care to point me in the direction of a single scholarly/published resource that refers to 'Ji-Pe' or 'Pi-Je' etc.?

I think the problem is that you're not acknowledging that functions operate in pairs, and instead are only looking at XXXX, which is Pe or Je.

Ji necessitates Pe. Pi necessitates Je. Vice versa.

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

Experience shows that the secondary function is always one whose nature is different from, though not antagonistic to, the leading function : thus, for example, thinking, as primary function, can readily pair with intuition as auxiliary, or indeed equally well with sensation, but, as already observed, never with feeling. Neither intuition nor sensation are antagonistic to thinking, i.e. they have not to be unconditionally excluded, since they are not, like feeling, of similar nature, though of opposite purpose, to thinking -- for as a judging function feeling successfully competes with thinking -- but are functions of perception, affording welcome assistance to thought. As soon as they reached the same level of differentiation as thinking, they would cause a change of attitude, which would contradict the tendency of thinking. For they would convert the judging attitude into a perceiving one; whereupon the principle of rationality indispensable to thought would be suppressed in favour of the irrationality of mere perception. Hence the auxiliary function is possible and useful only in so far as it serves the leading function, without making any claim to the autonomy of its own principle.


For all the types appearing in practice, the principle holds good that besides the conscious main function there is also a relatively unconscious, auxiliary function which is in every respect different from the nature of the main function. From these combinations well-known pictures arise, the practical intellect for instance paired with sensation, the speculative intellect breaking through [p. 516] with intuition, the artistic intuition which selects. and presents its images by means of feeling judgment, the philosophical intuition which, in league with a vigorous intellect, translates its vision into the sphere of comprehensible thought, and so forth.
 

Raskolnikov

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EyeSeeCold said:
I think the problem is that you're not acknowledging that functions operate in pairs

Are you serious? I went through a step-by-step example of how to determine the pairs based on exactly the same concepts in the article you quoted. I've explained it numerous times. The pair is determined by I/E and J/P. The shadow functions are implied. Please re-read by earlier replies - as I cannot be any clearer.

And as anticipated, your source is entirely correct and mentions nothing of Je/Ji/Pe/Pi. There is no such thing and it's something in over a year of studying MBTI, I'd never heard of until I came here. This isn't some sort of weird cult is it?!
 

kibou

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If you react this way whenever you come across something new, then maybe that's why you haven't heard of it until now... >_>
 

Raskolnikov

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kibou said:
If you react this way whenever you come across something new, then maybe that's why you haven't heard of it until now... >_>
That makes no sense...if by "react this way" you mean debate new ideas that I see as unfounded/illogical, and request published sources to back said ideas, then obviously I've already heard of it.
 

pjoa09

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Ok, I was thinking out in the living room for sometime and I caught myself in an argument over the movie Wall Street II. They quoted Einstein on in the context of doing something repetitively and expecting a different result is insane.

Don't INTP me yet.

Ok, while thinking about this fairly obvious and famous quote I approached the idea of salary. I thought hey wait they are doing the same thing over and over again to get money that they intend on saving.

Therefore, they are doing repetitively to expect a different result (as in they will get a car by saving money) and that seems to fit Einstein's definition of insane.

Then I reversed and considered the whole saving money plot as one big attempt to get that car.

Then it made sense.


Now the reason why I have come back to this rather old and somewhat concluded thread is because I observed Socionics descriptions.

Now, most of you regard Socionics the same as Horoscope but I tend to hang around their descriptions often despite their confusing classification.

I noticed that I fit the descriptions of ILI and SLI to certain degrees on wikisocion.

ISTP / ILI Characteristics
I have noticed that I also need to feel comfortable and can't be pushed to do something quickly without a reason. I can also burst into fury if not given enough of time to leave and vent. I also never buy anything for myself that isn't black and matte or could not be made black and matte. I have only one pair of jeans and use only one pair of shoes but they are expensive and have held up for 2 years easily. If I am with my trustworthy friends I am comfortable sharing whatever emotions I can sense but I have to think out loud to judge what are the motives of my feelings. I am fairly competent behind the wheel as well and have never had a real accident (I hit a flower pot once and scratched the car knowingly). I sometimes fix little things easily/intuitively? and get praised for it. I tend to participate in activities for the sake of it and eventually desire to gain competence.

INTP / ILI Characteristics
I tend to daydream frequently when bored and was notoriously noted in school for daydreaming. I always notice grammatical mistakes (not so much for spelling) and I am sarcastic amongst my family members. I always see a bleak future where life will turn into a miserable trudge and business will plunge into darkness and I won't be able to enjoy doing the things I used to do or do the things I want to do due to family obligations. I frequently call out past experiences or movies that I have watched in the past and observe how the message is conveyed through their music, events, and the entire movie as a whole. I try to imagine I am living in a mansion to let myself sleep (also I use imagination while masturbation but that maybe different). I tend to screw up easily when doing something mundane.


Is it possible to go from S to N or N to S at the age of 19?
 
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