it would be, by definition, impossible to detect the "cause" of something that is truly "un-caused"

[LOGICZOMBIE]

it would be, by definition, impossible to detect the "cause" of something that is truly "un-caused" and it follows by pure logic that no human could make such a thing "happen"

it would be, by definition, impossible to detect the "cause" of something that is truly "un-caused" and it follows by pure logic that no human could make such a thing "happen"


Imaniki — Today at 11:59 AM
how do you know something is true
it's an assumption based on the information you have
nothing is really true, if you believe so you are very likely to be foolish
to know you know nothing is the best way to adapt and fold your mind to the everchanging discoveries and truths we discover

LOGICZOMBIE — Today at 12:01 PM
a TAUTOLOGICAL statement is true by definition - - for example - - an event that is un-caused - - cannot be initiated by a human (or anything else for that matter)

Imaniki — Today at 12:02 PM
yes but even if that event is caused outside human intervention
how do you know the truth of that event

LOGICZOMBIE — Today at 12:04 PM
do you agree that all possible events fall into two, and only two categories - - CAUSED events (OR) UN-CAUSED events - - do you agree with this TAUTOLOGICAL statement ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

✂️ MUCH MORE HUMANE

51 seconds · Clipped by LOGICZOMBIE · Original video "Robert Sapolsky: "The Brain, Determinism, and Cultural Implications" | The Great Simplification #88" by...

youtube.com

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

 

[ZenRaiden]

Every true seeker, and truth dwelling, unyielding spirit of truth, must and should and will always follow the path.
THE PATH OF THE CIRCLE> ALL round things have an end!
I say I am the circle, and I will find the thread that started it, and I will find the thread that ends it!!!!. SO HELP THE ELDER GODS OF THE CIRCLES!

WE SHALL PREVAIL> Make triangles great again.
Or squares, provided you have the square footage.
Its all free real estate.
Geometry must be always about shapes!

 

[ZenRaiden]

Also cheek bones?

 

[Black Rose]

interaction > caused
decoherence > uncaused

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

interaction > caused
decoherence > uncaused

correct

and "decoherence" does NOT equal "will"

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Every true seeker, and truth dwelling, unyielding spirit of truth, must and should and will always follow the path.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Damn it I was blocked.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Damn it I was blocked.

try this one

 

[ZenRaiden]

yep worked.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

here's the thing, even a GOD cannot create an "uncaused" event

a GOD must either act by motivation (caused by existing or pre-existing conditions) (OR) without motivation (which would make the action essentially RANDOM and therefore not exactly an "act of will")

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

 

[ZenRaiden]

Actually I would stop at the word motivation.
We humans use this word to mean something.
Trouble is motivation is and always has been multi-facet phenomena.
That is why motivation is not something that can simply be understood as single perceptual event.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Trouble is motivation is and always has been multi-facet phenomena.

correct

however

motivation is always and can only ever be a combination of CAUSED and UN-CAUSED events

and you can't "take credit" for CAUSED events that influence your motives

and you can't "take credit" for UN-CAUSED events that influence your motives

 

[ZenRaiden]

and you can't "take credit" for CAUSED events that influence your motives

and you can't "take credit" for UN-CAUSED events that influence your motives

Whoosssshhh never thought about it that way. I got to think about this.

 

[Cognisant]

There's caused in the philosophical sense and caused in the practical sense, just because an event that wasn't caused by me caused me to miss the bus this morning doesn't mean that event was uncaused, just that it wasn't caused by me.

Practically speaking there are no uncaused events other than a presumed first cause that occurred at the beginning of causality, which is entirely theoretical/philosophical.

People tend to struggle with the concept of infinity, the idea that there’s no initial cause seems intuitively false because we cannot comprehend an infinite existence.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Practically speaking there are no uncaused events

so, do you think it's fair to say something like, "moral intuition is logically incoherent" ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

 

[Cognisant]

Practically speaking there are no uncaused events

so, do you think it's fair to say something like, "moral intuition is logically incoherent" ?

Intuition is logically incoherent by definition, if you logically deduce something that isn't intuition, that's just logic, whereas understanding something intuitively means you guessed how it is/works.

I don't understand how this relates to uncaused events, my intuition tells me I may have misunderstood the meaning of your question, whereas if you told me "moral intuition is logically coherent" I could logically deduce your statement is false.

 

[ZenRaiden]

intuitively means you guessed how it is/works.

EH, kind of. The way I understand intuition is that its merely unconscious process.

But just because the process is in the unconscious does not mean it does not follow logical patterns.
What once was logical and simple thought could become a larger pattern of intuition guiding a person in the present.

For instance we make assumptions about this world.... interestingly a lot of assumptions we as people have are unconscious.

Like lets say ugly men not approaching hot women.
In reality this is assumption of ego defense. I am ugly hence a good looking woman cannot like me. Although reasonable assumption, its possible there are women that would be attracted to ugly men.

Hence most men don't approach women above their league.

But if you know what you assumptions are, the foundational axioms of your thoughts, you can actually to a degree know more than normally.

People don't actually realize that most of what we do is based on assumptions that are unconscious - hence intuitive.

The reality could be really that most good looking women simply don't get approached by ugly men. Hence they never have a chance of knowing ugly men.

 

[ZenRaiden]

OK so what is caused and uncaused.
To me caused is observable connection between to happenings.
Ergo if I press a lever, water comes out of a fountain.
This means levers bring water.
When I walk, the ground holds me, but when I walk on water liquid splits under my feet.
When I stop breathing I stop being alive.... etc.
We have some obvious cause and effect universals, that simply work always.
Mostly naturalistic phenomena.

When it comes to humans given our complexity and inherent inability to be consistent as well as perceptual error and biases, and various psychological problems people can have, and diversity of personalities and learned and habitual behaviors, many behaviors are not clear cut cause and effect.

For instance its almost certain that some people for some reasons don't like chocolate.

But what context the term uncaused means?
If uncaused here means spontaneous existence without prior thing that led to the current thing, hence no prior cause, then we might actually be in a realm of unknowns as well.

For instance we humans are not really capable of knowing anything perfectly well.
We can only approximate certain coherence to reality.
That being said approximation is closer to truth the more time and repeated observation is, or the observation is qualitatively higher than prior.

So for me personally even if the eventuality is uncaused it would just mean I am not currently aware of full reality.

try this one

OK so I watched the video and its interesting.
Obviously things are always connected.
All energy is essentially somehow transformed into other energy.
That being said what are implications of such reasoning?

Lets say I murder a rabbit who ate my carrots, to prevent him from destroying my vegan life.
Then comes Mr. Miaghi and he says I am a bad student of Karate and tells me to not kill rabbits.
So I stop killing rabbits.
Then comes a time where the rabbits over populate, and then comes a point where foxes start going into carrot patches to hunt rabbits.
Soon enough though those rabbits start getting hunted down by foxes, and soon the foxes run out of rabbits, but they discover that my non vegan friends have chickens and they start stealing their chickens.
Then my neighbors come to my house and they start complaining that since I allowed rabbits to live, their chickens died, and then I have to pay for chickens.
But I don't have money for that, so I decide to solve the problem by killing foxes, and making fur coats out of them.
But then my neighbors are like, where you get the fur coats, and I am like I kill the foxes, and then my neighbor is like you are evil. How can you kill such nice creatures.
Then I decide that its indeed wrong to kill even foxes, so I stop eating carrots and plant potatoes and cucumbers.
So I think this will solve the problem. But bugs eat the potatoes, and cucumbers are eaten by snails.
SO I have to kill the snails and bugs.
But I don't want to kill what is connected to me.
So I take bugs that eat the potato eating bugs, and take birds that eat snails to kill them.
But eventually the birds shit on everything and the bugs eating bugs run out of bugs to eat and die of starvation.
So essentially whatever I tend to do some of that energy connected to me dies somehow of my own cause.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I don't understand how this relates to uncaused events,

free-will doesn't work if all events are caused

free-will doesn't work if all events are un-caused

free-will doesn't work if all events are a mixture of caused and un-caused

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

That being said what are implications of such reasoning?

everything you could ever want or be you already have and are

 

[ZenRaiden]

everything you could ever want or be you already have and are

Yes, but this is kind of tautological universalist circle.
We can always come to this conclusion.
Should I then just go on the way I am or jump for into the river.

What changes for me when I make decisions?
Should I avoid rational? Surely not?
Should I change anything?

To me the key component of all is at what point am I making a decision.
Whether the conscious decision I make is wrong or right, I still am at the helm, be it merely a spec of consciousness vs agent smith unconscious.

 

[Black Rose]

I still am at the helm

Yes so even in a deterministic universe we have the awareness to know what we are at the end of the day. And if this is true then what matters is our own preferences.

I "want" this and I will get "this" whereas if they match and have been achieved then society as a whole can make things into a collective decision as well. We want as a society to be this or that way and have gotten what we want. thus it is that "wanting" that matters because the universe will become what we want it to become not some kind of thing we have no control over.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Should I change anything?

is it even possible for you to "stay the same" ?

 

[ZenRaiden]

is it even possible for you to "stay the same" ?

No. I think you are correct.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Should I change anything?

can you identify your own desire ?

 

[ZenRaiden]

can you identify your own desire ?

I guess so.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

can you identify your own desire ?

I guess so.

try following that

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

 

[ZenRaiden]

Nice pics

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]