INTPs and Socionics

[oldfashionedgirl]

Okay, this is random, weird, and probably trivial, but I just got into socionics, and there's like nothing about them anywhere on the internet. It's driving me mad that I can't do what I did with MBTI and read every single article on the web, pick and choose what actually makes sense, and educate myself from there.
I believe MBTI should be paired with other things like Engram (I'm a 5w6 although the w6 part is still confusing) and socionoics. I think MBTI is broad and very easily understood and easy to type people with, but once you know your MBTI you should dive into other things to get a better understanding.

So, as I understand it, socionics types are flipped to MBTI. INTJs in MBTI are INTps in sociononics, and INTPs in MBTI are INTjs in socionlics.

Yes I keep testing as an ILI which is INTp and thus I should be an INTJ but I'm quite sure I am not a J in MBTI.
I should be an INTj, but I just don't feel I relate to that as well. There's so many parts of the INTp type that screamed at me: a further revelation than MBTI went into. But when I read the INTj one, I felt like I was getting a coded version of the stereotypical INTP profile trying to turn me into a emotionally dead mathematician who doesn't like people.
Does that mean I'm not an INTP in MBTI or... can I be something totally weird?
Like I said I'm having problems finding info about that online in general.

 

[Anktark]

I wouldn't worry about it. I am in pretty much the same boat- there are things that fit me very well in both INTj and INTp and some things that do not. When I took the socionics test it typed me as ENTp (INTj was a second choice).
It seems to me, that they created the descriptions by the relations of cognitive functions, but missed or misunderstood some subtle nuances. Like they created a personality out of those cognitive functions and slapped INTj on it, instead of seeing how those cognitive functions are expressed in real INTjs.
I do like the additional analysis of the ID block though. More info!

Description of MBTI INTP creeps me out (http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html), because it so accurate. For one, it is joyful that there are more people like me, on the other hand, someone has seen and understood my quantum core without meeting me (I thought the social protocol required having a meal at a neutral location before indulging into such intimacy).

So while I am aware of enneagram and socionics, I still prefer MBTI.

 

[oldfashionedgirl]

I wouldn't worry about it. I am in pretty much the same boat- there are things that fit me very well in both INTj and INTp and some things that do not. When I took the socionics test it typed me as ENTp (INTj was a second choice).
It seems to me, that they created the descriptions by the relations of cognitive functions, but missed or misunderstood some subtle nuances. Like they created a personality out of those cognitive functions and slapped INTj on it, instead of seeing how those cognitive functions are expressed in real INTjs.
I do like the additional analysis of the ID block though. More info!

Description of MBTI INTP creeps me out (http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html), because it so accurate. For one, it is joyful that there are more people like me, on the other hand, someone has seen and understood my quantum core without meeting me (I thought the social protocol required having a meal at a neutral location before indulging into such intimacy).

So while I am aware of enneagram and socionics, I still prefer MBTI.

What... exactly is the "ID block"? I noticed a lot about blocks on the site I was on, but there was no explanation and darned if I can find one.

You know, I may have a thing going here. One of my fictional characters I made is an ISTP in MBTI and seems to translate to... an ISTp in socionics. Now I think that one may be wrong.

Actually, there's a few things about MBTI that I don't find fit, although of all of them, INTP definitely fits me the most. Like, I'm not supposed to have any interest in the arts, yet I want to be a musician- I'm supposed to be great at math and science, but I'm not and actually don't enjoy either at all, and I'm not supposed to have any feelings, which I do, I just don't know what to do with them or how to express them, or whether I should trust them.

The feeling description of the ILI type really hit home much better than the emotional descriptions of MBTI do, for any of the thinking types let alone just INTPs.

 

[Anktark]

What... exactly is the "ID block"? I noticed a lot about blocks on the site I was on, but there was no explanation and darned if I can find one.

You know, I may have a thing going here. One of my fictional characters I made is an ISTP in MBTI and seems to translate to... an ISTp in socionics. Now I think that one may be wrong.

The feeling description of the ILI type really hit home much better than the emotional descriptions of MBTI do, for any of the thinking types let alone just INTPs.

I am not proficient in or knowledgeable about socionics, but a block seems to be a pair of cognitive functions expressed at a similar level. For INTj Ego block would consist of Introverted Thinking and Extroverted Intuition- the two most dominant functions for that type.
ID block seems like a shadow of Ego block; a continuation of functions list in order of their strength. In MBTI INTP has Fe as the inferior function and if we applied the same idea, Extroverted Thinking and Introverted Logic would go after Fe (which would leave Fi, and Se at the end as the least expressed functions in INTP). At least that's my interpretation, I might be babbling nonsense for all I know.

Like, I'm not supposed to have any interest in the arts, yet I want to be a musician- I'm supposed to be great at math and science, but I'm not and actually don't enjoy either at all, and I'm not supposed to have any feelings, which I do, I just don't know what to do with them or how to express them, or whether I should trust them.

Could you link the article where it's written that INTPs ought to have no interest in the arts? I have yet to find anything like that. On the contrary, I found that we can 'intuit' an atmosphere of an object, to capture it's essence quite well. And http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html quite acutely described my relation to music. I didn't find anything stating we are supposed to be great at math or science, proficient, sure, that's quite plausible. We might enjoy discoveries of new math theorems or scientific discoveries, doesn't mean we spend all our lives in the lab or staring at equations.
I understand math, but I am not interested in it and could not see myself as a mathematician. I am much more interested in systems and algorithms, though I can and do appreciate the elegance of mathematics when used to solve something. You could say I don't enjoy mathematics for it's own sake, but rather as a tool for understanding the world and creating systems.

It doesn't say we are not supposed to have any feelings, rather, we suppress, analyze and smother them, but when they do come out, they are raw and pure. Only in the last 4 or 5 years did I discover cold anger (I suppose my Fe is starting to develop).

 

[Lordran Nights]

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Wikisocion_home

That site has all the info available.

Only the Introverted types flip the letter, the Extraverted types don't. So ENTj in Socionics is ENTJ mbti.

The ID block are the two functions which make up strong unconsious. For INTj it is Te and Ni, positions 7 and 8 of Model A respectively.

 

[TBerg]

The dogma preached by the churches of MBTI, Enneagram, and Socionics might point you towards the truth, but it confines and limits our quest in the end. We must all look scriptural travel diaries written by Freud and Jung ourselves someday, because we have to get away from the psychological tourist traps. We must ask ourselves why our functions are stacked the way they are, and then we notice the workers built the travel fronts in the first place.

 

[Spirit]

Read the INTP book by Drenth. It will clarify a lot questions about INTP for INTP's who are interested in learning the framework of the personality type.

 

[viche]

There's a ton of articles post on this site, click on the menu and categories on left hand side.

Yes I keep testing as an ILI which is INTp and thus I should be an INTJ but I'm quite sure I am not a J in MBTI.
I should be an INTj, but I just don't feel I relate to that as well. There's so many parts of the INTp type that screamed at me: a further revelation than MBTI went into. But when I read the INTj one, I felt like I was getting a coded version of the stereotypical INTP profile trying to turn me into a emotionally dead mathematician who doesn't like people.
Does that mean I'm not an INTP in MBTI or... can I be something totally weird?
Like I said I'm having problems finding info about that online in general.

You have to figure the system out for yourself, bro. There is no easy way out. The problem of converting your MBTI type to Socionics type is that chance that you've gotten wrong type MBTI. Which is easier than it appears, because MBTI doesn't have any clear typing criteria besides just reading the profiles, which makes it easy to mistype. Then if you try to convert your wrong MBTI type you'll end up with wrong type in Socionics. Then none of the intertype relationships with work for you and you'll conclude that it doesn't work.

So do some research and reading into the Model A and their information elements, figure out your intertypes, then you'll be set to go. Don't try to take the easy way out of simply flipping types.

 

[oldfashionedgirl]

There's a ton of articles post on this site, click on the menu and categories on left hand side.


You have to figure the system out for yourself, bro. There is no easy way out. The problem of converting your MBTI type to Socionics type is that chance that you've gotten wrong type MBTI. Which is easier than it appears, because MBTI doesn't have any clear typing criteria besides just reading the profiles, which makes it easy to mistype. Then if you try to convert your wrong MBTI type you'll end up with wrong type in Socionics. Then none of the intertype relationships with work for you and you'll conclude that it doesn't work.

So do some research and reading into the Model A and their information elements, figure out your intertypes, then you'll be set to go. Don't try to take the easy way out of simply flipping types.

Yeah thanks for the advice, I'm definitely going to be trying to read up on this stuff.

You know, this is probably unrelated, but sometimes I wonder if I AM mistyped. I don't think so, and I often think it can't be because I've read all the other type profiles and none of them sound like me. Except for a couple of stupid stereotypes, INTP seems to be it.
Someone told me once that the mere fact I second guess myself at least weekly proves I'm an INTP.

 

[oldfashionedgirl]

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Wikisocion_home

That site has all the info available.

Only the Introverted types flip the letter, the Extraverted types don't. So ENTj in Socionics is ENTJ mbti.

The ID block are the two functions which make up strong unconsious. For INTj it is Te and Ni, positions 7 and 8 of Model A respectively.

Ahh thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[oldfashionedgirl]

Could you link the article where it's written that INTPs ought to have no interest in the arts? I have yet to find anything like that. On the contrary, I found that we can 'intuit' an atmosphere of an object, to capture it's essence quite well. And http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html quite acutely described my relation to music. I didn't find anything stating we are supposed to be great at math or science, proficient, sure, that's quite plausible. We might enjoy discoveries of new math theorems or scientific discoveries, doesn't mean we spend all our lives in the lab or staring at equations.
I understand math, but I am not interested in it and could not see myself as a mathematician. I am much more interested in systems and algorithms, though I can and do appreciate the elegance of mathematics when used to solve something. You could say I don't enjoy mathematics for it's own sake, but rather as a tool for understanding the world and creating systems.

It doesn't say we are not supposed to have any feelings, rather, we suppress, analyze and smother them, but when they do come out, they are raw and pure. Only in the last 4 or 5 years did I discover cold anger (I suppose my Fe is starting to develop).

I would except... it didn't really come from an article.
I said it earlier but I have [unfortunately] learned how to get certain results with certain tests. If you say you don't think a book is better than a party, you're an extrovert, for example, is something I found out very fast.

So, I noticed that when I answered questions like "You are very attuned to music and notes" or "You can see the beauty in a piece of artwork easily" I tended to get INFJ or INFP instead of INTP. Apparently, the people who write the actual tests, not the articles, think we're not supposed to have interest in the arts. Although the tests don't mean a whole lot to me, I have to admit, as most are screwed up to start with.
It's more, again, the darn tests that "suggest their makers think we don't have feelings. I have a tenancy to answer yes on the empathy questions, because they're true, but it always gives me INFP when I do. The profiles themselves will have you believing that you're not supposed to have any if you don't read between the lines, IMO, but I always have read between the lines so.... I've always thought those profiles were slightly bias.
Yeah, I really don't get mad at all. I get somewhat frustrated but I just... go listen to a song or read a book or something, and it does go away quick. I've never actually been MAD, though. Funny how that works.

EDIT: Sorry for posting so many times. It was easier to quote one at a time.

 

[Marcel]

Speculation is a human pastime like collecting telephone cards or eating raclette. You shouldn’t expect “truth” but entertainment and stimulation. If you don’t find tranquillity in one system, you move to the next one and try your luck there.

I just got into socionics, and there's like nothing about them anywhere on the internet.

Perhaps you are too pessimistic? See Соционика.

I think MBTI is broad and very easily understood and easy to type people with

Not so. You see that it is even difficult to type yourself though you have ‘unrestricted’ access to your inner world.

MBTI tests are easy, but they are not reliable at all, even if you always test as an INTP. Those questions are a very poor tool to extract the order of your functions.

But when I read the INTj one, I felt like I was getting a coded version of the stereotypical INTP profile trying to turn me into a emotionally dead mathematician who doesn't like people.

If you look at your dominant function, do you really think that it is Introverted Thinking? Are you really a human computer, or is it only your sidekick?

A. J. Drenth, The 16 Personality Types, 2013, Kindle for PC: The dominant function represents the core strength and defining characteristic of each type. When engrossed in an activity that fully engages the dominant function, we tend to feel alert and alive, doing what we were “born to do.” The auxiliary function, which can also be well developed and useful, might be viewed as the co-pilot or sidekick to the dominant.”

INTP:
Dominant: Introverted Thinking (Ti)
Auxiliary: Extraverted Intuition (Ne)
=
LII (Logical Intuitive Introvert):
Introverted Logic (Ti)
Extroverted Intuition (Ne)

Yes I keep testing as an ILI

ILI (Intuitive Logical Introvert):
Introverted Intuition (Ni)
Extroverted Logic (Te)
=
INTJ: Ni>Te

If you can exclude INTJ but want to try intuition as a leading function, there is only the ENTP type left with Extraverted Intuition (Ne) among the NT types. Perhaps you can forget that you see yourself as an introvert for a moment.

It's common for people to say that ENTPs are the most introverted out of the extroverted types. I have struggled for some time between INTP and ENTP, and have finally settled on the latter. http://personalitycafe.com/entp-for...-entps-being-most-introverted-extroverts.html

ENTP:
Dominant: Extraverted Intuition (Ne)
Auxiliary: Introverted Thinking (Ti)

“In short, I suggest that INTPs are best understood as predominant Judgers and display many characteristics of EJs, only that these behaviors are directed inwardly or toward the self.”

In ENTPs’ the order is reversed. Rather than starting with an initial judgment or presumption like INTPs, they approach things through the fresh eyes of intuition. They then employ their Ti to analyze and enhance the logic and structuring of their Ne perceptions. […] INTPs’ dominant Ne may also confer a greater interest in the arts and culture than typically seen among INTPs.” (Drenth)

I found this description really helpful:

Extraverted Intuition as Leading Function (ILE, IEE): http://www.socionics.us/theory/bi.shtml

So far ENTP seems to fit me better than INTP, though I can identify with almost everything that happens in the internal world of INTPs. And I seem to have two modes for dealing with the outside world, one is the INTP way, and the other is rather extroverted. But it seems that Ti is only the co-pilot in my case. It doesn’t bother me in the least that I don’t know yet my type; keeping several balls in the air and not coming to a decision or to a final 'truth' is something ENTPs are said to love, and I couldn’t agree more. Ars longa, vita brevis.

Let’s go on learning more about these entertaining little functions!

 

[oldfashionedgirl]

Speculation is a human pastime like collecting telephone cards or eating raclette. You shouldn’t expect “truth” but entertainment and stimulation. If you don’t find tranquillity in one system, you move to the next one and try your luck there.

Perhaps you are too pessimistic? See Соционика.

Not so. You see that it is even difficult to type yourself though you have ‘unrestricted’ access to your inner world.

MBTI tests are easy, but they are not reliable at all, even if you always test as an INTP. Those questions are a very poor tool to extract the order of your functions.

If you look at your dominant function, do you really think that it is Introverted Thinking? Are you really a human computer, or is it only your sidekick?

INTP:
Dominant: Introverted Thinking (Ti)
Auxiliary: Extraverted Intuition (Ne)
=
LII (Logical Intuitive Introvert):
Introverted Logic (Ti)
Extroverted Intuition (Ne)

ILI (Intuitive Logical Introvert):
Introverted Intuition (Ni)
Extroverted Logic (Te)
=
INTJ: Ni>Te

If you can exclude INTJ but want to try intuition as a leading function, there is only the ENTP type left with Extraverted Intuition (Ne) among the NT types. Perhaps you can forget that you see yourself as an introvert for a moment.


ENTP:
Dominant: Extraverted Intuition (Ne)
Auxiliary: Introverted Thinking (Ti)

“In short, I suggest that INTPs are best understood as predominant Judgers and display many characteristics of EJs, only that these behaviors are directed inwardly or toward the self.”

I found this description really helpful:

Extraverted Intuition as Leading Function (ILE, IEE): http://www.socionics.us/theory/bi.shtml

So far ENTP seems to fit me better than INTP, though I can identify with almost everything that happens in the internal world of INTPs. And I seem to have two modes for dealing with the outside world, one is the INTP way, and the other is rather extroverted. But it seems that Ti is only the co-pilot in my case. It doesn’t bother me in the least that I don’t know yet my type; keeping several balls in the air and not coming to a decision or to a final 'truth' is something ENTPs are said to love, and I couldn’t agree more. Ars longa, vita brevis.

Let’s go on learning more about these entertaining little functions!

What does me being pessimistic have to do with it? [for the record I call myself a realist].

Ah that's true lol... If I have to pick between typing someone else's person [thaaaat sounds creepy <.< ] I choose MBTI over Engram because I find MBTI the easier of the two. I have no doubt of my Engram type, 5w6. It was a no brainer the second I read it.

See, this is the thing:
I've read the INTJ profiles... [for a while I had my dad mistyped as one actually]. They are just- so not like me. Quotes from the profile that really are my polar opposite are things like:

INTJ personalities radiate self-confidence,

I'm the poster child for the lack-of-self-confidence club. [I admit it. Finally.] I've always been that way.

INTJs are very decisive, original and insightful – these traits push other people to accept the INTJ’s ideas simply because of that sheer willpower and self-confidence.

If anything, this is something that I cannot relate to. I have never at any time in my life been decisive about anything, and I definitely haven't ever had people agree with me based on my willpower. As far as I know I probably don't have any noticeable "sheer willpower and self-confidence".

INTJs dislike rules and artificial limitations

If a rule is stupid, trust me when I say I'll be the first to let you know about it. But at the same time if the rule is perfectly logical I couldn't care less. If it's a nice rule like "don't shoot random people" [just a dumb analogy] I would never shoot random people anyway so.... who cares?

Anyway, I just don't think INTJ is me.
ENTP... offers one small problem. Okay two small problems.
1. Every site I've ever been on has talked about the ENTP's love of arguing.
I don't really enjoy arguing. Not only that but I suck at it.
What good does it do? I'll probably never change your mind and you'll probably never change mine and all we'll do is get mad at each other, so you might as well hang it up.
2. If there's one letter I am certain about it's I. I am introverted.
I get people-tired, as I call it, quickly. Most people don't have this problem unless they're I don't know, going to a party or something.... me, Just the weekly three stores and the bank for shopping on pay day and I feel.... ready to just go home and lock myself in solitude, pretty much. People tired and physical tired are two very different things. With one, you just know you're.... actually physically tired. With the other this weird numb feeling takes over my head and I just can't think straight. I have to really struggle to fake any smiles or laughs and, if I don't soon get to recharge [I'd say within an hour or two of that stage] I get the most splitting headache and this... weird sort of pressured feeling in my head.
That sounds so wrong. I just can't really describe it, but... I'm darn certain that I'm an Introvert.
For the record I always test between 80-100% in I. I really don't doubt that much.

So yeah. I guess I am an INTP.
And a 5w6.
Maybe I should re read the LII one and make sure it doesn't fit me better than the ILI one.
Thanks for the detailed post!
[also guess what, now the ' and the n keys on my laptop are sticking so I'm messing up a lot of words, sorry if I missed any]

 

[viche]

I learned about socionics mostly by doing searches on 16types.info website. Some of their past discussions are very informative. And looking up things at Socionics Resource page.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

Both, socionics and mbti are only theories. Personally I'm something between INTP, INTJ, LII, ILI with advantage for INTP and ILI.

 

[deadpixel]

I prefer to just stick with mbti, My results come out as (INTP)ILI-2TE on socionics but different people say that it means that im actually an INTJ and theres no way in hell im a J.

 

[Base groove]

Some aspects of Socionics just add more depth to the same theory. I don't know how valid their body type and facial structures are but I won't dismiss it.

If type is accepted as genetic then a correlation between type and body structure isn't too far fetched.

 

[Variform]

Could you link the article where it's written that INTPs ought to have no interest in the arts? I have yet to find anything like that.

I am not very knowledgeable of all these things. But could it not work like this, that INTP's have great logical skills and intuitive thinking and out of that comes a need to involvement with the opposite?

I am logical enough, intuitive thinker, all fine. But I am also creative. I play music, ceramics, writing. These are interests. Is this to balance out my constant obsessive thinking? It is tiring for me and sometimes I will mentally tell myself to stfu.

So is this a recognized dynamic? Strength versus need?

 

[viche]

I prefer to just stick with mbti, My results come out as (INTP)ILI-2TE on socionics but different people say that it means that im actually an INTJ and theres no way in hell im a J.

All people are Js and Ps at the same time.

INTP's first function is a judging one, J, but auxiliary is a perceiving one, P.
INTJ's first function is a perceiving one, P, but second function is a judging one J.

You can see how both types have both J and P origins.

If you're trying to figure out your type and evaluate MBTI vs Socionics by J/P, it's not going to work very well.