INTP search for self-knowledge

[Architect]

From a question Cherry asked on another thread.

INTP's commonly have a sometimes lifelong search for self-knowledge, as A.J. Drenth discusses in "The INTP". Certainly we see this on INTP focused groups, this one being the best example. However there are exceptions, notably in Albert Einstein, our poster child. As Drenth notes

Although I generally agree that Einstein embodied many INTP characteristics, it is equally important to note what he lacked. Namely, he failed to exhibit one of the more common and central features of INTPs - a deep concern for self-knowledge. Indeed, most INTPs see self-knowledge as a critical component of their quest for truth and meaning

Interesting exception from our front man. However what's even more interesting is that I have a personal example of the same thing - a close INTP friend of mine. A professor once tested him and he came out as INTP, and there couldn't be a clearer example of one. What's common with my friend and Einstein?

• They both found their core interest early in life. Physics for Einstein, EE for my friend.
• They both found it in a technical field
• They both were raised in supportive environments

The last point is a little speculative as I haven't been able to find out much about Einsteins early family life. But it doesn't appear to have been inimical to his predilections, and since he didn't write about it or seem to worry about his early life, I'll take that point. Similarly my friend was raised by an academic, and his parents recognized and supported his interest in engineering (such as by letting him take radios apart, even though he didn't put them back together again!)

So, from these limited examples the theory is that INTP's who discover their passion, in a technical field, at a young age and with a supportive family will likely not be as restless and self-questing as the rest of us are doomed to be. Notice I specified a technical field. I've made this point before, but I believe that while truly an INTP (or any type) can be fulfilled in a variety of fields, there still are some that are better than others. So that, all else being equal, if you took two INTP twins and raised one to become a STEM worker, and the other to be anything else that took their fancy, I'd maintain that the STEM worker would find more satisfaction in their career generally speaking.

Now if anybody here is like Einstein or my friend speak up, but I somehow doubt it because those types of INTP's are probably unlikely to frequent these groups! Self-selection bias.

The third example possibly is my son, who seemingly found his passion (computers), at a young age, with a supportive home environment. He also displays little of this self-searching so far, far less than I did at a similar age, so it will be interesting to how that works for him.

PS I think this theory plays out, albeit differently, for other IN's. From limited experience I see similar patterns for INFJ's.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

I agree.

They both were raised in supportive environments

this is very important, I already think about break relationship with my parents, because they are toxic. Who knows, I could be much better person now if I had supportive environment, but I'm still young and maybe I can catch up lost time.

 

[Brontosaurie]

well drenth is full of shit

seeming contradiction dispelled

 

[Architect]

but I'm still young and maybe I can catch up lost time.

Yes you can.

My upbringing was mixed. Good parents, supportive as much as they were able. The biggest issue was just that it was mixing oil and water. ESTJ/ESFP family so guess who was the odd one out? It taught me to fight for what I needed, well because it was a constant battle against the majority that wanted to zig when I needed to zag.

If you don't work on it now then it will come up in midlife. Jung noted that the midlife crisis in his patients seemed to be due to them being raised against their inner nature, and probably was a key point in him developing the theory of Type. I experienced it as my inner Type needs finally 'putting it's foot down' and demanding that I change my habits. So this was my problem, habits developed in one environment (ES) that didn't work for the inner needs (IN).

Here's the formula. Your personality is a soft wiring of habits that take all sorts of forms. Such as self doubts, behavioral, thought patterns, expectations, work habits, play habits, everything. Your personality, which is what you are most aware of, is a set of habits formed in the crucible of your upbringing.

The good news is that unlike your type you can reprogram it, just as you programed yourself to be the person you are now. The method is as follows ...

• First step is awareness. Become acutely aware of what habits and thoughts you have that cause you discomfort.
• Think about them in relationship to your life. Where and when might these thoughts/habits have developed? From what influences?
• Think about where you want to be. Do a Gedanken experiment, think about what kind of person you would be now if you hadn't had those influences.
• Sleep on it, and continue to do this for say a month.

Also - write down or record your thoughts and feelings on this during the process. It will provide a reference point so you can later see how you've changed, which is hard to see without keeping some kind of track.

What happens is that at night our brains rewire based on our experience during the day. You truly are what you think. So, as you think about these things you will slowly unwind them. You'll still be the same person, but your demons won't control you as they used to.

 

[manishboy]

Good observation. I was a sensitive child raised in a loving but tempestuous home and it's taken me a long time to find a basic sense of comfort in my skin. For years, I'd dream of nothing but traveling to new places, exploring buildings, etc.

As much as I'd like to complicate your STEM claim, I have to concede to it. In my early thirties I became fascinated by the study of complex systems and finally feel that I've found my intellectual home base. This after a long tour through the humanities. The only exception I make is for philosophy, which still appeals to me and could easily become a second home. I also find that the more authentically intellectually engaged I feel, the less I concern myself with myself, and can imagine that if I were raised to embrace that side of myself, to be confident in it, that I would have little need of this forum or any theory of personality.

BTW, apparently young Einstein had an uncle who taught him mathematics in an engaging way, which indicates that at least one person in his upbringing respected and nurtured his mind.

 

[Architect]

As much as I'd like to complicate your STEM claim, I have to concede to it.

I fought STEM for my whole life. Got into physics because I felt "my thinking needed work", but pined for the humanities. Got into Engineering, and pined for the humanities. Finally realized that it was a conflict between the dominant, the personality and the inferior. For most INTP's I suspect the humanities should remain strictly an entertainment.

 

[OrLevitate]

the sky is blue and lava is red pepsi is god illuminati confirmed live animals starts with l but if you look at it its looks like an I but that looks like two super imposed T's so mr. t is a gemini and he is the most self actualized person also the poster child of all live animals by transitive property thus due to him being revered in japan it is because yakuza is illuminati and they control corporate america keeping the balance of sky and earth

oh wait guize is there's a standard for critical thought here?

"INTP's commonly have a sometimes lifelong search for self-knowledge,"

everyone does, the ones who feel mostly characterized as introverted and perceiving more so, n too, i guess, meybe. But, the actual concrete data is that it's the ones who aren't adjusted to their environment that do more self searching, the ones that are stubborn, the ones that are depressed, the ones that turn their curiosity into their thing that boosts themselves out of circumstance initially and then out of habit and brain chemistry/ path of least resistance. and every time i present inhibition to your dopamine you start a new big thread. it's like tilling the soil.

"as A.J. Drenth discusses in "The INTP"."

this is just you telling us that you don't know what you're talking about

"However there are exceptions, notably in Albert Einstein, our poster child. As Drenth notes"

So the exception to the only rule you stated in this thread about intps, who is also one of the most exceptional people to have ever lived, is the poster child... for the INTP. k. oh, as drenth notes, right ok. Why do you give him so much credit? Because you don't have a clue about the topic.

"einsten drenth quote thing"

Errrr Einstein is made of atoms too I think. He was adjusted to his environment, obviously, because he was a fucking genius! Very adaptable, he was religious (jew) but scientific, got along with people as a funny guy, etc. But was also curious about the nature of reality. He wasn't interested in the unique snowflake path of discovery that drenth seems to be saying is the only way to understand yourself (because he can't see past his subjective experience) huh I guess I see why you like drenth so much. that's all assuming that Einstein really didn't have a thirst for self knowledge like drenth stated in what looks to be a very superficial analysis.

stopped reading there, do you want more?

 

[Analyzer]

I fought STEM for my whole life. Got into physics because I felt "my thinking needed work", but pined for the humanities. Got into Engineering, and pined for the humanities. Finally realized that it was a conflict between the dominant, the personality and the inferior. For most INTP's I suspect the humanities should remain strictly an entertainment.

I think your "all else being equal...INTP's are better off pursing STEM" Idea makes sense, but I think it has more to do with economic conditions. Pursuing STEM* provides an outlet or opportunity for INTP's to explore different ideas and be creative than anything(most) else right now. Back in the day STEM wasn't as established and their were other creative outlets for INTP's that they could pursue without worrying about making a living or finding their meaning. It was easier to get away with not knowing anything technical, especially before the industrial era. Many thinkers, philosophers were not engineers or applied scientists.

Mixing science and art is the main focus INTP's are after. Currently STEM related subjects offers less of an opportunity cost for the average INTP to fulfill this, but doesn't mean there aren't any others - look at Drenth.

*STEM in the specific sense, as finding a career or pursuing something where you are mostly involved in adding to those fields. In it's broadest sense, most of everything involves STEM nowadays. If your trying to be a writer good luck not using the Internet as your medium.

 

[Seteleechete]

I think it has to do with the fact that they simply are distracted/comfortable by their interests and as such spend less time/energy on self reflection. INTPs seem to be prone to get obsessive about things and care less about less important matters. If you get obsessive/highly interested in a subject you would suddenly care less(or rather focus less) on other things, such as self reflection.

 

[OrLevitate]

jeez

ok, if you set a container down on a sloped surface firmly, then it won't move, and that's good in this analogy because if you don't set it down firmly then it will wobble back and forth as it goes down the slope more and more until it completely loses balance.

the ideas you guys are talking about are more synonymous than you realize. "Passion" is most of the time something that someone becomes good at and then they derive pleasure from being good at it while meeting a rising level of challenge-- "flow".

Then, since they're good at that thing young, they don't have issues with who they are, because their esteem is high. It doesn't matter what the thing that the parents encourage is, just that the kid becomes good at it. So the prevailing wisdom is that you just encourage the kid with everything they take an interest in, the parents' best chance is to just make sure one of the seeds of interest grows into a skill they're good at. applying mbti stuff to a child is RIDICULOUS. So if i were a parent anyways I would try to keep in mind not limiting what i encourage more or less in the child by having a preconceived notion of what i want them to be.

wow this sass is like over 9000

 

[Seteleechete]

We(At least I) are applying the mbti stuff to the adult based on his experiences as a child. He did after all grow up to be INTP but with an oddity some INTPs have some don't. The theory being that this oddity is based on something that happened in his childhood.

 

[Architect]

I think your "all else being equal...INTP's are better off pursing STEM" Idea makes sense, but I think it has more to do with economic conditions.

Oh absolutely, I've said before that one reason I recommend INTP's to look into programming is because of present day opportunities. If it wasn't so good I'd be less sanguine. Einstein exemplifies the absolute ideal for INTP life, which was being a natural philosopher and theorist.

But it's not 1900 anymore, he was working at a time when all the clues were around, it just took the right INTP to see outside of conventional thinking. The groundwork for the photoelectric effect, SR and then GR were laid down. Others had already proposed that a solution to the Michaelson-Morely would be if length contracted. The state of physics is very different now.

But at that, programming is a close runner up.

Mixing science and art is the main focus INTP's are after. Currently STEM related subjects offers less of an opportunity cost for the average INTP to fulfill this, but doesn't mean there aren't any others - look at Drenth.

Oh yes, there are many opportunities for mixing STEM and art. And dare I say, CS is one of them?

In it's broadest sense, most of everything involves STEM nowadays

Yes. Precisely, most of everything is an information science these days, and more fields are getting swallowed up every day. Which is great for information junkie Ne INTP's.