INTP and Nostalgia: Where is my INTP's heart?

[pythagolivia]

I am an ENTP female (not far from XNXP), 21, Engineering Student in an almost-2-year-relationship with an INTP male, 21, Medical Student. We were friends for a long time before the relationship started (we were both in serious relationships with other people at the time) and the chemistry was always there, although innocent, as we were both in love with and committed to our respective partners.

My 1.5-year relationship ended (don't know what his type was, it started off fantastic and magical, I loved him deeply, he changed a lot while we dated, I went through a serious dip, he ended it because he "just didn't want to care anymore", I was heartbroken, and I took about 6 months to get over it, we became friends, and we're just amicable acquaintances now that we found we don't enjoy each other's company much now that all the romantic feelings are gone). I'm far healthier and more independent than I was with him.

At this point, INTP's 2.5 year relationship ended - his ENFP had a midnight emotional episode about something they'd been arguing about and left him over the phone. She said she never wanted to speak to him again.

INTP was heartbroken, worked through the break up and decided it was the right decision as they had been fighting for over a year (religious differences, difference in emotional needs, communication issues).

4 months after their break-up, and after a build-up of about two months, INTP and I became a couple. And it was so very perfect.

Our relationship:
- We love discussing politics, religion, language, culture, philosophy, you name it. We're constantly pushing each other to think further and it's immensely satisfying.
- We both love adventure, travel, British humor, cooking, and wordplay.
- We both have a need for space and independence, and we both appreciate the other's understanding thereof.
- The physical parts are glorious.
- When we "fight", it is always rational (often with charts and diagrams to help), and more like a discussion than an argument. We are both always understanding of the other's view, and there have been very few, if any, emotional fights at all. If anything, I've enjoyed these experiences as a chance for our relationship to grow and for me to learn more about him.
- He remains calm when things go wrong and I admire that so. He always keeps to his word.
- He struggles to talk about feelings, while I love breaking apart aspects of the relationship to dissect and analyze. He takes a long time to respond to relationship topics, and this frustrates me. In turn, he gets overwhelmed by my pushing for further discussion and frustrated at himself for taking so long to respond properly.

Now, where his ENFP ex comes into the picture:
- Shortly after our relationship started, he got a phone call from his ENFP ex apologizing for everything that went wrong in their relationship. He did not see this as an attempt to get back together, responded to her that he is grateful for the apology and that he is also now sure that the break-up was for the best. He did not want to bring this up to me as our relationship was new. He did not mention to the ENFP that he is in a new relationship (his explanation of that now is that he didn't see it as necessary to share, she was no longer part of his life).
- ENFP gets emotional about once a month and phones him late at night to talk about things (emotional issues, her friend dying, etc.)
INTP always answers and the phone calls go on for about 3 hours at a time, starting off nicely and ending in arguments. At the end of every phone call, ENFP says she never want to speak to INTP again. ENFP still doesn't know that INTP is in a new relationship. Repeat.
- INTP convinces ENFP that they should meet up to get finality on whether they are going to be friends or never speak to each other again, as the constant phone calls and continuous goodbyes are hurting him every time. So they agree to meet up. ENFP tells him she wants to go somewhere where they share no memories so that they can start fresh. She wants to camp. INTP tells her camping is off and inappropriate, and eventually they meet up in a town nearby to talk things out.
-The day is going well, when halfway through the day, INTP tells her about me (we had been dating 7 months at the time). ENFP had him blocked on all social media, so she never knew. She gets emotional, slaps him and starts crying. ENFP accuses INTP of lying to her all these months. ENFP thought INTP was going to fight for her. ENFP has been waiting a year for INTP to go crawling back to her. INTP had no idea. ENFP says it should have been obvious. Later, she tries to kiss him. He only stops her after their lips have touched. She tells him they have something special and that, when the time is right, she knows he'll change his mind. They fight, talk things out, INTP confirms that the relationship is in the past and they agree never to speak to each other again.
- Fast forward a week. I get an email from ENFP saying that I shouldn't trust INTP and that he kissed her the week before. He had told me about them meeting up (before and after) and I was cool with it, but the kissing part I didn't know about. I show him the email. He recounts what happened. We move past it (theoretically, I guess, since I still have the occasional internal freak-out).

Fast forward a year, to where we are now. ENFP and INTP have had contact again 3 or 4 times that I am aware of. INTP did not pick up after the last phone call a few months ago, but sent her a message on her birthday. He has since deleted her number from his phone.

My issue:
Somehow, in all this, I feel like a 2-year-long rebound girl. I know he chose me when he could have had her back, but he has also made it clear that he will never tell me I am more important to him than she was. He says I must respect his past, that what they had was very special. He keeps a ton of mementos in his room from their relationship: signs they stole together, teddies from travels, etc. He recently relocated into a tiny studio apartment and while most of their photos went into storage, he kept a folder filled with old love letters from her, and I see it on his desk every time I visit (he doesn't know that I know what's in it and I doubt he'd ever trust me again if he knew I'd read it). I borrowed his computer once to look up and article on Facebook and his recently searched Facebook tabs were her close friends.

So what is going on here? I know he loves me, I'm sure of that. But is she forever going to be his one that got away? His one true love that I just can't compare to? How am I meant to reconcile the scenario where his heart is fully with me, with the scenario wherein he keeps this pile of intimate love-letters from his past on his desk?

I've never met the ENFP, although a part of me has always desperately wanted to. When INTP told her about me, ENFP said she wants nothing to do with me. I saw her at a convention that he and I went to together a few months ago, but he either didn't see her or pretended not to (although he definitely saw her best friend as she was standing next to us at one point and he did not greet her). I know ENFP saw us - she disappeared for a while and later I saw her looking down at us from the balcony.

I've become so overwhelmed by these thoughts over the last year that I can't shake her ghostly presence and my constant need to compare myself to her. I feel a lack of closure about the issue, but I don't know how to deal with it. I've tried to bring up the topic a few times but he's never responded fully, and I don't want to seem like an untrustworthy insecure jealous idiot.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

This is what you have: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/90-Extinguishment-Relations

This is what you're combatting: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/85-Mirage-Relations

Increased awareness of this will likely help both of you. Have you told him your feelings on this? Just straight up show him this thread.

 

[Tannhauser]

he has also made it clear that he will never tell me I am more important to him than she was.

Who says that kind of shit?

Other than that, I read somewhere that it is typical INTP to store stuff to remember the past, like they are afraid of getting rid of things. I think that is true, but openly keeping stuff from his ex-girlfriend? That's just weird.

 

[Reluctantly]

/disclaimer Just my OPINION

I don't know how you humans do it, honestly. Love is so messy; it's like an addiction. You can't quit because withdrawals and if you do manage to get past that and quit, you've got to be extra careful around it again.

Makes me want to vomit just thinking about it

But you sound jealous or something that he also loves her. I don't know if that matters or what-not, but yeah. If it were me, I'd leave because of it; no sense getting involved in that. Your feelings about it aren't magically going to disappear and asking him not to see her anymore (another option) would be a kind of fucked up and manipulative thing.

But you won't leave, not unless it gets really bad. Because you like him.

But good luck

 

[Sinny91]

Hmm. I don't see a problem with him keeping that stuff, so long as its shoved in a box out sight, and preferably out of mind.

By this stage, he should have no qualms telling you that you are more important than her... he's flaking on the commitment here.

It sounds like you two have something worthwhile, and worth saving... but now you have bunny boiler in the picture, you need to act accordingly and shut that boiler bitch down.

First, you get him to lay his cards on the table, is he as committed to this relationship as you?

If affirmative he then needs to be on board with cutting out the bunny boiler ex.

If he won't get on board with that, then he's a lost cause and I'm sure there are plenty more fish in the sea.

 

[cheese]

He had told me about them meeting up (before and after) and I was cool with it, but the kissing part I didn't know about.

he kept a folder filled with old love letters from her, and I see it on his desk every time I visit (he doesn't know that I know what's in it and I doubt he'd ever trust me again if he knew I'd read it).

Neither one of you is honest with the other. Start there. Do you want to genuinely know each other or do you want an illusion of intimacy while you keep secrets from the other to avoid upsetting the status quo, when really you're entrenching stagnation and destroying intimacy? Don't tip-toe around what you mean, just say it as directly as you'd say it to yourself or a friend. Volunteer the information you think they'd want to know but you've been keeping from them - don't try to hide it, don't even wait to be asked.

Otherwise the relationship will always be based partly on illusion, and in my experience that never works.

The other thing is that the INTP has problems with boundaries. I think this will take him a few years to work out. Regular 3 hour phone calls with exes where he doesn't share his current relationship status is a red flag. I don't mean he's cheating on you or intends to, but that he's unclear about what's appropriate and feels undue responsibility (and this is damaging for all parties, not just him) for someone he's chosen to let go. Needs to do a lot of soul-searching or seek therapy. (This seems fairly typical of early 20s, so I wouldn't take it as proof he's a bad egg. At that stage, a lot of your drives and motivations are hidden even from yourself - growing older is a process of becoming more conscious.)

IMO it all comes down to honesty - with yourself and with each other. Honesty also entails being willing to face your fears, which includes knowing what your true needs are and being willing to honour them even if it means letting the other go.

It also seems fairly normal to me that he isn't quite able to let go of the ex despite him having been with you for 2 years. They ended traumatically, giving him little chance for closure; he's continued to feel responsible and tied to her; she manipulates him emotionally (consciously or not), and they were together longer. It won't necessarily always be like this - he just needs to be made aware of what internal factors are motivating his behaviour to keep this other level of (unhealthy and damaging) intimacy in his life while trying to grow a relationship with you.

 

[Auburn]

hey pythagolivia, welcome aboard

I've tried to bring up the topic a few times but he's never responded fully, and I don't want to seem like an untrustworthy insecure jealous idiot.

You're a fairly controlled person, and are struggling to remain responsible, rational and balanced -- when emotions don't listen to reason! I can relate to that. It's not easy.

But there's something I've learned about love which I think may help give some perspective..

Every relationship is simultaneously a relationship with oneself, wherein you nurture yourself by allowing certain experiences to be had; adding vitality to your own mind/heart often by unlocking aspects of yourself in the process. In this sense, we are caring just as much for ourselves (in no malevolent sense) as for the other.

When love leaves hangups like this, what the heart is truly longing for is its own vitality and ability to feel/be/live in a way not felt since; experiences which the person acted as a key into. Soon, life moves and makes certain arrangements impossible; they can never be recreated again.

Yet there is still longing, but this longing isn't for anything real/actual/existent. What we are longing for is our own ability to be (or memory of being) elated; to experience joy, to experience ourselves again at full capacity. That's what we cherish - not so much the person/key. It a very important distinction.

I know he chose me when he could have had her back, but he has also made it clear that he will never tell me I am more important to him than she was.

This can be a very traumatic thing to hear, if heard with the wrong ears. It doesn't help if the speaker doesn't know what their deeper psychological motivation is. But we can translate that to "I will never be able to feel as profoundly as I did back then."

This is an issue of his relationship with himself. He feels he cannot access that level of perfection again. But why. That's the starting point. Talk to him about what the feeling was like. How was he able to be so vulnerable, and what did that feel like?

You can have access to his deepest heart this way; by inquiring into the private experience of his emotions and journey. Because that's really what matters; knowing the other and how their heart was/is/can-be unfurled. There's great potential for bonding and love here.

It may sound like the toughest thing to do but if you come to earnestly understand his past experience with love, you will actually be granted access to that secret nexus of intimacy that is kept so far. And he'll feel understood in the area that he's probably feeling most ashamed of. It's not easy to feel ashamed of one's honest feelings and feel like they are wrong and should be destroyed because they're hurting others, when they are in fact quite innocent... and aren't the threat they seem to be. Misunderstanding how hearts work can be very damaging.

If he succeeds in neutralizing his feelings (of past love), it may comfort you in the meantime but he will have also lost the ability to feel as deeply for you. But that same receptive tenderness can be kept active and grow in new directions if he decides to work his way out of specificity and honor his heart through an understanding of the disembodied qualities which move it, and which can be found in you, in life and many places.

 

[Cognisant]

Increased awareness of this will likely help both of you. Have you told him your feelings on this? Just straight up show him this thread.

Yup, do that.

Regarding the letters are you sure he hasn't forgotten about them?
INTPs don't intentionally collect things they just sort of accumulate.

 

[Yellow]

I kinda see where you're coming from. My INTJ has an ExFP that got away. He deeply regrets that he couldn't make it work with her. I'm sure that if he could figure out a way to tap that ass without getting the crazy on him, he would. But he can't, and he's accepted that. It doesn't bother me because I don't think his love for her has anything to do with his love for me.

Your INTP probably loves his ex very much. He probably loves you very much. These don't have to be mutually exclusive loves.

Luckily, "hearts" aren't tangible things. They aren't made of some specific quantity that can be "spent". Like anything else with people, every love is like a snowflake or whatever.

Think of it in a less personal way (I'm gonna assume you're a cat-person): You love your cat. If you have two cats, you love both of your cats. When they pass away, you'll be devastated. You'll always remember them. You'll get a new cat and you'll love that cat too. Your heart isn't running out of room for cat-love is it? (I hope not). Even if you had a cat for like a month before it ran off, you'll still remember that cat, and if it was a sweet cat, it'll hold a special place in your memories. You might even keep a picture of it.

 

[cheese]

Also +1 to everything Auburn said.

 

[scorpiomover]

ENFP has been waiting a year for INTP to go crawling back to her. INTP had no idea. ENFP says it should have been obvious.

Not an ENFP. INFJ.

1) Waiting for something to happen for an entire YEAR, when any extrovert would have just blurted it out, and ENFPs are extremely extrovertedly open? Introvert.

2) Thinks that the INTP would end up crawling back to her? That's getting people to do your bidding. But crawling back to her, means that he also knows that it's her will he is obeying. That's not him thinking that it was his idea. That is him thinking that he can't survive without her telling him what to do all of the time. J.

3) He had no idea. She said that it should have been "obvious". Sounds like she expects that he reads his mind. High and unrealistic expectations. Ni.

She's an INFJ.

She tells him they have something special and that, when the time is right, she knows he'll change his mind.

Architect calls the INTP-INFJ pairing the "golden couple".

When it works, it works great. Hence why he thinks that he'll always have a special connection with her.

HOWEVER, from my own experience, when INFJs get a vision in their head, they can be as stubbornly wedded to their vision as INTJs.

INTPs like to sort things out. Either they work, or they don't. If they can sort the issues out, then they'll stay in the relationship. If they can't, then INTPs will end up concluding that it's a no-go and they'll split (J-dom).

He tried for a YEAR. She didn't sort out their differences. Probably thought she could sweet-talk him.

INFJs are good at sweet-talking people. When an INFJ lavishes her full attention on one person, it can feel like they are in the presence of the Sun. When the INFJ turns to someone else, it can feel like going from full-on Sun to darkness. Really drives many people up the wall.

She tried to sweet-talk him, to get him to bend her way. INTPs can be extremely pliable.

But eventually, once Ti makes up its mind about something, there's no moving the INTP from his decision. She forgot about his inner strength, and chose to ignore it.

You need to invite her over, and tell him point blank that he needs to put her out of her misery by telling her the brutal truth. You need to be there, to make him do it, and to make sure that she doesn't try to manipulate him. You need to tell him that you're not there to make things go your way or his way or her way, but just to mediate and keep things on track.

When she comes over, make everyone a drink. Then chat for a minute, and point to him and say that he can be a bit of a coward about saying the things that are unpleasant, but people need to hear.

Then MAKE him say what he should have said at the beginning. There were many problems in the relationship. He tried for an entire year. He was incredibly heartbroken once it ended. But he also reflected on if he should go back, and realised that moving on was the best thing for both of them.

She'll cry and say that she's never been as happy as she was with him. You need to step in and point out that there WERE problems. She'll agree and then reply that she thought that with time, they would go away. Then you point out that they were together for 2.5 years, and a full year of arguments. They didn't go away. They needed to be resolved or they both needed other people.

Then you let her rant about all of the problems. Then you write them all down on a piece of paper. Then you go through each point she raised, one by one.

Let her raise her views, and then his.

She will respond that she's absolutely sure about nearly all of them. He'll respond on most of them that they are either unacceptable in the long-term, or would require significant compromise on her part, to which she will reply that she would never agree to such a massive compromise on even one of those points.

Eventually, it will become clear by the end, that she has a list of a dozen demands that she will refuse to budge on in a relationship, that he will never fulfil. She'll realise that he was "not the man he thought she was", and "she can do soooo much better".

Then in the future, if she has a problem, she has to come to YOU, NOT TO HIM. You can be her friend. He can't, because of their past history and because he is too much of a softy.

Get his network to have her number automatically re-routed to your phone. If that's not possible, get an app to do it. If that's not possible, when she calls, he is not to answer and to ring you to tell her that she called. Then you ring her.

You'll see very quickly that reason will force her to sober up and find another "special someone".

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

Why am I always the last to know...

Oh, right. Because I did it in the first place.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

ROUUUUND UP ROUUUUND UP

 

[Pyropyro]

I think a cool off is in order. Like the others said, the INTP needs to work on his issues. I don't think it's fair that you have to suffer for that.

The ENFP sounds toxic. I'll try to get away from that gal if I were him.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

Spoiler

Not an ENFP. INFJ.

1) Waiting for something to happen for an entire YEAR, when any extrovert would have just blurted it out, and ENFPs are extremely extrovertedly open? Introvert.

2) Thinks that the INTP would end up crawling back to her? That's getting people to do your bidding. But crawling back to her, means that he also knows that it's her will he is obeying. That's not him thinking that it was his idea. That is him thinking that he can't survive without her telling him what to do all of the time. J.

3) He had no idea. She said that it should have been "obvious". Sounds like she expects that he reads his mind. High and unrealistic expectations. Ni.

She's an INFJ.

Architect calls the INTP-INFJ pairing the "golden couple".

When it works, it works great. Hence why he thinks that he'll always have a special connection with her.

HOWEVER, from my own experience, when INFJs get a vision in their head, they can be as stubbornly wedded to their vision as INTJs.

INTPs like to sort things out. Either they work, or they don't. If they can sort the issues out, then they'll stay in the relationship. If they can't, then INTPs will end up concluding that it's a no-go and they'll split (J-dom).

He tried for a YEAR. She didn't sort out their differences. Probably thought she could sweet-talk him.

INFJs are good at sweet-talking people. When an INFJ lavishes her full attention on one person, it can feel like they are in the presence of the Sun. When the INFJ turns to someone else, it can feel like going from full-on Sun to darkness. Really drives many people up the wall.

She tried to sweet-talk him, to get him to bend her way. INTPs can be extremely pliable.

But eventually, once Ti makes up its mind about something, there's no moving the INTP from his decision. She forgot about his inner strength, and chose to ignore it.

You need to invite her over, and tell him point blank that he needs to put her out of her misery by telling her the brutal truth. You need to be there, to make him do it, and to make sure that she doesn't try to manipulate him. You need to tell him that you're not there to make things go your way or his way or her way, but just to mediate and keep things on track.

When she comes over, make everyone a drink. Then chat for a minute, and point to him and say that he can be a bit of a coward about saying the things that are unpleasant, but people need to hear.

Then MAKE him say what he should have said at the beginning. There were many problems in the relationship. He tried for an entire year. He was incredibly heartbroken once it ended. But he also reflected on if he should go back, and realised that moving on was the best thing for both of them.

She'll cry and say that she's never been as happy as she was with him. You need to step in and point out that there WERE problems. She'll agree and then reply that she thought that with time, they would go away. Then you point out that they were together for 2.5 years, and a full year of arguments. They didn't go away. They needed to be resolved or they both needed other people.

Then you let her rant about all of the problems. Then you write them all down on a piece of paper. Then you go through each point she raised, one by one.

Let her raise her views, and then his.

She will respond that she's absolutely sure about nearly all of them. He'll respond on most of them that they are either unacceptable in the long-term, or would require significant compromise on her part, to which she will reply that she would never agree to such a massive compromise on even one of those points.

Eventually, it will become clear by the end, that she has a list of a dozen demands that she will refuse to budge on in a relationship, that he will never fulfil. She'll realise that he was "not the man he thought she was", and "she can do soooo much better".

Then in the future, if she has a problem, she has to come to YOU, NOT TO HIM. You can be her friend. He can't, because of their past history and because he is too much of a softy.

Get his network to have her number automatically re-routed to your phone. If that's not possible, get an app to do it. If that's not possible, when she calls, he is not to answer and to ring you to tell her that she called. Then you ring her.

You'll see very quickly that reason will force her to sober up and find another "special someone".

Criticism of INTP-INFJ relations aside, I don't believe there's anywhere near enough information available to question her type, especially to the point of differentiating between the borderline features of an unhealthy ENFP and the dependent features of an unhealthy INFJ.

 

[Yellow]

Not an ENFP. INFJ.

1) Waiting for something to happen for an entire YEAR, when any extrovert would have just blurted it out, and ENFPs are extremely extrovertedly open? Introvert.

2) Thinks that the INTP would end up crawling back to her? That's getting people to do your bidding. But crawling back to her, means that he also knows that it's her will he is obeying. That's not him thinking that it was his idea. That is him thinking that he can't survive without her telling him what to do all of the time. J.

3) He had no idea. She said that it should have been "obvious". Sounds like she expects that he reads his mind. High and unrealistic expectations. Ni.

She's an INFJ.

You're assuming she was telling the truth. An upset ENFP can rationalize like a beast. She could have been making that "I've been waiting a year, you're supposed to fight for me" BS on the spot (and believing her own rationalizations on the spot too).

The gaps also supports the idea of an ENFP probing at him again when she's between diversions. They tend to pine more when they're bored.

I'm not saying she can't be INFJ, it's just that given that much time and effort, any INFJ worth their salt would have succeeded in reeling him back in (at least temporarily) or found "the man that God really meant for her all along" in the meantime.