Independent Variables

[BigApplePi]

Think about this: When I was in school studying math, I was taught x,y and z were independent variables. None depended on the other. Each stood alone. But in real life this is not true. A building can be very tall. But there is a limit as to how tall it is unless the width and depth of the base are a certain size.

Same with cognitive functions. Are thinking and feeling supposed to be independent variables? What about sensation and intuition, introversion and extroversion? What about perception and judgment? What about intuition and judgment and other combinations?

What about other things, like action and feelings? Can a mathematical formula be cooked up, like A x B x C = result?

What is going on here? Is there no such thing as an independent variable?

 

[PhoenixRising]

Reality is built up of relationships. Variables are descriptions of different parts of a whole.

Cognitive functions are very much dependent upon each other. The Thinking function is one half of a duality that includes the Feeling function. These functions oscillate between themselves, and also oscillate with the Intuition and Sensing duality. Introverted functions cannot express without their Extroverted counterparts. Extroverted functions cannot introspect without the Introverted functions.

 

[Architect]

Think about this: When I was in school studying math, I was taught x,y and z were independent variables. None depended on the other. Each stood alone. But in real life this is not true.

What's the relationship between a solar eclipse and you beating a drum to make it end? Does beating the drum (to appease the sun gods) work?

 

[BigApplePi]

What's the relationship between a solar eclipse and you beating a drum to make it end? Does beating the drum (to appease the sun gods) work?

At least nine times out of ten beating that drum will work. It forces time to pass and that force forces the moon to get the hell out of the way.

 

[Architect]

At least nine times out of ten beating that drum will work. It forces time to pass and that force forces the moon to get the hell out of the way.

No, every time you beat the drum the sun will come back. However, every time you don't beat the drum the sun will come back. Therefore beating the drum and eclipses are truly independent variables.

 

[Brontosaurie]

independent variable is something you control and modify in order to observe a result along some other variable.

it's not meaningful to talk about something as an independent variable unless you are experimenting on it. everything is interconnected.

 

[Base groove]

I can not imagine there are independent variables in the study of the human mind.

In some fields of psychology, a particular schedule of reinforcement might be considered an independent variable.

Jung certainly spoke of each cognitive function having the capacity to push the other three out of consciousness (repression). He made specific mention that the J and P functions each repress the other member of their category most forcefully, however a certain degree of repression is expected for all inferior functions as they all oppose the dominant slightly, but to a significant degree nonetheless.

I suppose that this means the expression of each function is dependent on other variables,

 

[BigApplePi]

No, every time you beat the drum the sun will come back. However, every time you don't beat the drum the sun will come back. Therefore beating the drum and eclipses are truly independent variables.

Nice. Yet every time you see an eclipse, some idiot starts beating* a drum. Dependent variable.

*In a worried way.

 

[Architect]

Nice. Yet every time you see an eclipse, some idiot starts beating* a drum. Dependent variable.

OK, but that just says there are plenty of dependent variables in the world too. That's where science comes in.

 

[BigApplePi]

This CAN'T be that difficult a problem. I awoke this morning still not having a feel for a solution. Many here say there is no such as an independent variable. Everything influences everything else.

Yet what about what Architect said?

No, every time you beat the drum the sun will come back. However, every time you don't beat the drum the sun will come back. Therefore beating the drum and eclipses are truly independent variables.

That's about the real world. It must mean, thinking of cause and effect, that the cause is independent of the effect if the effect can't change the cause.

What about X,Y, Z, Time dimensions? In WHAT SENSE are those independent variables? Horrible horrible problem.

 

[Grayman]

Many here say there is no such as an independent variable. Everything influences everything else.

That is falsely stated. Everything is dependent on some other variable but not all variables at once.

 

[BigApplePi]

That is falsely stated. Everything is dependent on some other variable but not all variables at once.

Okay. Perhaps we can try to isolate systems, one from the other. They won't interact as long as there is no motion between them.

Perhaps the X,Y,Z,Time system is a static framework and an abstraction containing nothing. But as soon as one introduces substances into the framework they becomes candidates for influencing each other.

 

[Hawkeye]

Is there no such thing as an independent variable?

The speed of light is the speed of light in all frames of reference, therefore it is an independent variable.

Case closed?

 

[BigApplePi]

Are thinking and feeling supposed to be independent variables? What about sensation and intuition, introversion and extroversion? What about perception and judgment? What about intuition and judgment and other combinations?

Introversion and extroversion, I/E.
This is about which direction we are pointing, inward or outward. The pointing is a single variable making pointing inward or outward dependent on the pointing direction.

Sensation and intuition, S/N.
Here the variable is a bodily sense. One is specifically felt by the body, the other is felt as broad and diffuse. The variable is scaled along specific to diffuse.

Thinking and feeling, T/F.
Here the variable is about how we are to treat truth: order versus importance of order.

Perception and judgement, P/J.
The variable is about how much do we value action: leave things be or move them.

These are four mutually independent abstractions: Inward/outward versus bodily sensing versus how we treat truth versus how we move things. They are not independent when we look at the whole system. The abstract cognitive functions are perceived at a lower level than a temperament at a higher level. We as observers define which level we are looking at. We as judgers can refuse one level over the other.

Intuition and judgment, N/J example.
One refers to diffuse sensing and the other to overt action. These are independent as one can have intuition and either action or inaction and oppositely one can partake in action and do so about specific sensation or a diffuse one.

 

[Grayman]

The speed of light is the speed of light in all frames of reference, therefore it is an independent variable.

Case closed?

http://io9.com/scientists-freeze-light-for-an-entire-minute-912634479

 

[Hawkeye]

http://io9.com/scientists-freeze-light-for-an-entire-minute-912634479

That does not dispute my statement (as cool as it is)

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

The speed of light is the speed of light in all frames of reference, therefore it is an independent variable.

Case closed?

Wouldn't it be constant and not variable?
Not cute

 

[Grayman]

That does not dispute my statement (as cool as it is)

The light slowed through a specific process. If the variables that exist within that process changed the speed of light, the speed is dependent on those variables.

Case opened.

 

[Hawkeye]

The light slowed through a specific process. If the variables that exist within that process changed the speed of light, the speed is dependent on those variables.

Case opened.

Light can be both a dependant and an independent variable. It's all about context.

 

[Grayman]

Light can be both a dependant and an independent variable. It's all about context.

I must have falsely believed it was all under the context of objective reality and not any specifice circumstance that could be defined in a physics text book.

 

[Hawkeye]

An independent variable is the variable that is changed in a scientific experiment.

Independent variables are the variables that the experimenter changes to test their dependent variable.

For example, a scientist is testing the effect of light and dark on the behaviour of moths by turning a light on and off. The independent variable is the amount of light and the moth's reaction is the dependent variable.

 

[Grayman]

An independent variable is the variable that is changed in a scientific experiment.

Independent variables are the variables that the experimenter changes to test their dependent variable.

For example, a scientist is testing the effect of light and dark on the behaviour of moths by turning a light on and off. The independent variable is the amount of light and the moth's reaction is the dependent variable.

I didn't know we were using the term in the context of science either. I did not see where he referenced science....

Are there other contexts you would like to explore or should we refer BAP for a more accurate reference of context first?

 

[Hawkeye]

I didn't know we were using the term in the context of science either. I did not see where he referenced science....

Are there other contexts you would like to explore or should we refer BAP for a more accurate reference of context first?

As he is talking about maths and equations I think it's safe to assume that the context is the one I referred to.

y = 6x - 8

x is the independent variable.

 

[Hawkeye]

If however, you want to talk about a variable that changes independently of anything else, clarification is required.

Such as: is time exempt from the stimuli list?

Without a rate of change, variables cannot exist.

 

[Grayman]

From what I understand of BAP's intuitive dilemma. Math is not compatible with reality since reality does not have independent variables and Math does. Math can use the speed of light as if it is independent but it is really not independent but instead assumed to be in normal conditions in reference to us.

 

[Base groove]

Okay. Perhaps we can try to isolate systems, one from the other. They won't interact as long as there is no motion between them.

Perhaps the X,Y,Z,Time system is a static framework and an abstraction containing nothing. But as soon as one introduces substances into the framework they becomes candidates for influencing each other.

This ^ exactly

 

[BigApplePi]

If however, you want to talk about a variable that changes independently of anything else, clarification is required.

We can define a closed system, scientific or not and then ask about variables.

Without a rate of change, variables cannot exist.

Didn't you just mean plain ol' change? A variable is something that changes.

Such as: is time exempt from the stimuli list?

Hmm. If we ask, how much time does it take to get from here to there, that would depend on how far we are going. So time would be dependent. On the other hand if we are looking at a Renaissance painting, we control how long we are looking, so time wouldn't matter. Confusing, isn't it?

 

[QuickTwist]

I think you would need a whole lot more dependent variables in tandem with independent variables to determine what action is felt by the opposing player and/or circumstance and what result would come from it.

Math exists to serve man but much of it is not yet discovered.

 

[Grayman]

So time would be dependent. On the other hand if we are looking at a Renaissance painting, we control how long we are looking, so time wouldn't matter. Confusing, isn't it?

Maybe if you put it in a formula format I would understand better what you are saying. As it is, I am not certain of the result and the variables consisting in the function.

 

[Hawkeye]

We can define a closed system, scientific or not and then ask about variables.


Didn't you just mean plain ol' change? A variable is something that changes.

Hmm. If we ask, how much time does it take to get from here to there, that would depend on how far we are going. So time would be dependent. On the other hand if we are looking at a Renaissance painting, we control how long we are looking, so time wouldn't matter. Confusing, isn't it?

No, it isn't confusing at all. As I said earlier, variables can be both dependent, or independent. It all depends on context.

In your examples, time is a dependant variable in the first (time is y) and an independent variable in the second (time is x).

*looking at Grayman, mimes an action that represents "in yo face"*

 

[BigApplePi]

From what I understand of BAP's intuitive dilemma. Math is not compatible with reality since reality does not have independent variables and Math does. Math can use the speed of light as if it is independent but it is really not independent but instead assumed to be in normal conditions in reference to us.

Yes intuitive dilemma which needs resolution.

In math the formula y = x + 2, if we pick x first, x is the independent variable as we of our own independent free will pick it. If things were different and we picked y first, things would change and y would be the independent variable instead of x.

Moving over to this semi-abstraction in the real world:

Sensation and intuition, S/N.
Here the variable is a bodily sense. One is specifically felt by the body, the other is felt as broad and diffuse. The [independent] variable is scaled along specific to diffuse.

We can pick the independent variable to be deliberate conscious diffusion. Intuition is the dependent variable when we choose diffusion conscious awareness; sensation is the dependent variable when we choose specific conscious awareness.

Then going to this specific hands-on event in the real world:

The speed of light is the speed of light in all frames of reference, therefore it is an independent variable.

If we first pick light as an entity, it has its own independent being in the sense of shining and moving. If we pick a slowing frame of reference (independently), the speed of light becomes dependent. So can we say whatever it chosen first is the independent variable?

Now what about the X,Y, Z coordinate system? As long as we haven't picked anything, all three coordinates are independent. But in the formula Z = 2*X + 3*Y, Z is now dependent on the independent choices of X and Y.

Human relations: Say we have three people: Joe, Abdul, and Mary and we want to know who is dependent and who is independent. As long as we haven't picked anyone, all are independent. But if we pick one, say Mary, she is the independent variable because we are asking how do the other two relate. If Abdul is dating Mary, Abdul is dependent in the sense we are asking who is dating Mary. If Joe has taken Mary as a slave, Joe is dependent for the same reason. But if we step outside the system of Joe and Mary and ask, who is the master and who is the slave, Joe is the answer and Mary becomes dependent.

 

[QuickTwist]

What I was trying to get at is that since everything is related to everything else, it takes a lot more information to know how everything relates to everything else making it an incredibly complex system.

@BAP, I think you are on to something but focussing too much on things within a vacuum. For example, in your S/N description and their variables, you cannot take just the S/N and their variables, you also must consider the rest of the variables as well ie. E/I, T/F and J/P. In order to get a truly accurate description you must put it in the format of e(n=(bx)m), where n= the independent variable, e=amount of equations there are, b= what the base of each dependent variable is, x=the dependent variable and m=how many dependent variables there are. This equation is all the equations that are needed in the matrix to understand the big picture.

 

[Architect]

What I was trying to get at is that since everything is related to everything else ...

Everything is not related to everything else.

 

[QuickTwist]

True not everything is related to everything else but there is enough inter-relation to justify my equation. my point is that things are often more complicated than they appear not less.

 

[BigApplePi]

Everything is not related to everything else.

One way of looking at things in the middle world is by modularity/ compartmentalization/ separate closed systems.

Not true(?) gravitationally ... at least in the macro world.

In the quantum, micro world I've heard there is some controversy about this. It's proposed particles affect others at a distance but so far I was never able to understand that.

 

[BigApplePi]

... in your S/N description and their variables, you cannot take just the S/N and their variables, you also must consider the rest of the variables as well ie. E/I, T/F and J/P. In order to get a truly accurate description you must put it in the format of e(n=(bx)m), where n= the independent variable, e=amount of equations there are, b= what the base of each dependent variable is, x=the dependent variable and m=how many dependent variables there are. This equation is all the equations that are needed in the matrix to understand the big picture.

I think you're onto something also, but that e(n=(bx)m) formula might need work.

The S/N variable/variation is supposed to be independent of the others if we exclude them. I say that because we can have an xNxx temperament and a xSxx temperament where the x's can be anything.

 

[Grayman]

One way of looking at things in the middle world is by modularity/ compartmentalization/ separate closed systems.

Not true(?) gravitationally ... at least in the macro world.

In the quantum, micro world I've heard there is some controversy about this. It's proposed particles affect others at a distance but so far I was never able to understand that.

The effect equates to half-life always decreasing while never reaching zero. I dont know if that increases your understanding or not but it helps me.
Anyways, good example.

Another is time if it really exists.

It would almost seem as if energy itself is always the dependant variable.

Dancing under the moon may not be related in any practical sense but if the moon were moved would the dancer move differently due to gravitational shifts? Does not the light hitting the moon change by having one dancer on earth?. Of course, I thought no but... If it didn't you would not be able to see the dancer from the moon.

 

[Base groove]

Instead of calling them "variables", why not call them "eigenvectors"?

Then, there is the Copenhagen interpretation...

 

[BigApplePi]

Instead of calling them "variables", why not call them "eigenvectors"?

Then, there is the Copenhagen interpretation...

Copenhagen? Could that be related to availing themselves of the Stockholm Syndrome? If not, the words dimension or degrees of freedom might do.

 

[C.Hecker88]

Think about this: When I was in school studying math, I was taught x,y and z were independent variables. None depended on the other. Each stood alone. But in real life this is not true. A building can be very tall. But there is a limit as to how tall it is unless the width and depth of the base are a certain size.

Same with cognitive functions. Are thinking and feeling supposed to be independent variables? What about sensation and intuition, introversion and extroversion? What about perception and judgment? What about intuition and judgment and other combinations?

What about other things, like action and feelings? Can a mathematical formula be cooked up, like A x B x C = result?

What is going on here? Is there no such thing as an independent variable?

I believe that this all depends upon context and comparison. In truth, everything simply is and affects all in the very nature of its existence.