Hard Work.

[Waterstiller]

What does it mean for an INTP to be working hard? What are some characteristics of hard work? Was there a moment in your life when you feel you consistently began to work hard?


(Prompted by this post by snowqueen)

 

[Beat Mango]

Oh yeah I love work. Real work, that is. I don't like going to work and being told off for not being busy (ie, not looking busy), or the underlying tensions or politics with co-workers. But something untainted by those things, like cleaning or labouring, it's fantastic, really gets me in the zone.

I made a decision to start working hard, too, probably at the start of '07. I got my first full-time job which taught me consistency and discipline, and I then translated those attributes into uni the next year, where I finished my degree half a year before I was supposed to, while working to support myself. It was great. This year I just got a 9-5 and it's pretty boring but I love the rhythm you get into from having a job (and the cash flow, I guess).

Work cures the three great evils: boredom, vice and poverty.

 

[niteshift]

I've worked hard all my life. Always had at least 1 1/2 jobs or more. Would happily do 16 or 24 hr shifts. The exhaustion is very soothing for the mind. Promotes good sleep. If it's not paid work, then unpaid. As long as it's relevant, engaging, and something is learnt.

cheers, niteshift

 

[Beat Mango]

Curious what you do for work, niteshift?

 

[niteshift]

Scientist and music producer, in no particular order. LOL

cheers, niteshift

 

[Artifice Orisit]

cheers, niteshift

Is this some sort of drinking game?

Work cures the three great evils: boredom, vice and poverty.

Exactly, it's better to be busy than bored.


cheers, cognisant
*has a shot*

 

[niteshift]

Haha.... no, sorry, just an expression I'm afraid. But on this occasion, there is beer in hand. It's downtime time ! Or Beer O'clock, for the unitiated.

Hard work = Excuse for Hard ( moderate ) playtime.

cheers, niteshift

 

[Latro]

I've never really wound up with a situation where I had to consistently work hard to get my goals met. For the most part I've kinda coasted through most of my time spent, which has mostly been in the educational system (only in the last year have I worked a job, and even that job is rooted in education). I've had days where I've had to crack down and finish up a project or similar things but for the most part those number less than, I'd say, 20 per year. The rest of the time I'm mostly coasting, and it still amazes me how much people tend to work to get the same grades as I do with very little work.

The weird thing is that I don't feel good about coasting. I don't feel like I have the right to brag about the ability to do all this without working hard. I feel like the system is lacking in immediate opportunities for those that don't find the current setup challenging. I know some of this is my own lack of effort to actively seek out such opportunities, but I think a lot of it is just that those things aren't built into the system.

I dunno if that has much to do with this thread though...

 

[niteshift]

Hey Latro,

Yes, your comments are very valid. I coasted also in my younger days. It was too easy, and therefor I put in mediocre effort and got good to mediocre grades.

I recently returned to the education system as an adult student to do a Masters, did a couple of units, got +90's, so gave it up. It was suggested I might like to be invloved , writing a syllabus, for parts of the course that , in my opinion , were deficient.

When the student is providing the information to the institution, there's something a bit wrong. Learning institutions, in my opinion, have become divorced from reality. Academia is for it's own purpose, and is no longer the gate keeper of knowledge.

So, you want to work ? Then work on something productive, with a viable outcome.

cheers ( again ) , niteshift

 

[Claverhouse]

I detest any sort of work, hard or otherwise.



Claverhouse

 

[niteshift]

Psssst....... fly spray kills parasite.

cheers, niteshift

 

[Claverhouse]

And parasites kill lots of living things, as do living things to each other. All of human life is parasitic; and reward has no relation whatsoever to effort no matter how the poor saps who believe they 'deserve' a set amount think.

Besides, I didn't say I hadn't worked hard: merely that I do not enjoy it.



Claverhouse

 

[niteshift]

".....and reward has no relation whatsoever to effort ......"

Oh yes it does. Very much so. For it is effort that is well regarded. The man that strives, and extends himself will succeed. That success may be internal. It may be external. But none the less, it is achivement.

And would you also be a "poor sap" ? One who thinks he's special and above others, because he has intellect ?

You are not special. You are simply one of many. Now, go and do something worthhile.

cheers, niteshift

 

[Claverhouse]

Not all people need to rely upon external or internal validation for their self-worth. And why the fuck do you believe that what gives you pleasure ought to give everyone else pleasure ? Any Carlylian work-ethic depends upon an inner emptiness.

Better to regard Sturgeon's Law: “Ninety percent of everything is crud.” --- which means inter alia that 90% of human effort is worthless. Most offices are concerned with writing up and moving around papers; most advertising work is trivial falsity; most police work is now politically conscious routine.

Take merely one example: Architecture. There hardly hasn't been a single worthwhile building since 1920 > certainly excluding that skyscraper crap > this means not only could all the buildings since be improved by razing them to their sites and letting the grass grow over, but that all the builders; all the labourers; all the technicians; all the financiers, were creating dross that ought not to have been built and cosmically were engaged in a fools' charade of wasted effort.

I can think of many people who work tremendously hard: politicians, bankers, professors of women's studies, hip-hop musicians, and all are heavily rewarded --- and all they do is useless crap, and if they die or retire can be replaced in a heartbeat by more willing to produce the same crap; on the other hand there are men pulling iron ships to pieces by hand in India, and they... are not rewarded well.

As for 'parasitism', a somewhat soviet accusation, most aristocracies in history have lived upon the efforts of others: those drones were fully as useful and needful to the building of civilisation as any of the larger groups of persons they exploited. Who makes you the judge of whether they should all have heartily joined in the same hard work as their lower classes, all merrily on an equality toiling like little bees ?

The achievement you boast of is merely false value. A hundred years after death and no man's work is known, at least for the toiling masses. Whereas things of the spirit and of art are imperishable so long as they endure in memory.


Oh, and by the way, working 16 hour shifts a couple of years back I hated every goddamn minute. --- As the great George V. Higgins put it, as a mantra in one of his excellent romances: "We did it for the money."...



Claverhouse

 

[Death]

Working hard is not a problem for me,but procrastination and most of the time overconfidence,in one chemistry test when I'm very sure I will ace in it,I happens to forgot which is positive or negative between anode and cathode.

My college counselor once give a talk about time-management,and he said he beats procrastination by wearing a rubber band in left hand,and pulls it to give himself some pain whenever he found himself procrastinating, I'm going to try this masochistic method to beat procrastination anytime soon. *pulls out imaginary rubber band*

 

[niteshift]

@ claverhouse, and what have you done in your life, my dear sir, to be such an epitimy of judgement. To sit, and to reflect, is all very well, but the weight of your words willl only be carried upon your actions. To do nothing, is a greater crime than to do evil. Architecture ? I'll give you the Sydney Opera House. Case closed.

I would counter your self obsessed diatribe with the following.....

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. "

Theodore Rosevelt
Speech at the Sorbonne
Paris, France
April 23, 1910

cheers, niteshift

 

[niteshift]

Hey Death,

A practical solution ! Anode/cathode still gets me too. It's a 50/50 guess on my part. I still have problems hooking up jumper leads with cars.

cheers, niteshift

 

[RubberDucky451]

I'll admit it, i do procrastinate quite a bit. I would feel guilty about it but usually I'm procrastinating by studying something like MkUltra so i really don't feel bad.

 

[Kidege]

It means I walk into the shower with my glasses on and I can't tell why everything looks so clear, no, wait, foggy.

It means I'm focused on this and don't talk to me because this is a thought and wait till I've written it.

It means I wake when the clock goes off and no time for dwelling on the meanings of dreams or for writing them down and breakfast is a necessity, protein, carbs and B vitamin.

It means sardonic laughter and brief smirks and quick cynicism because my softer side's taking a hike.

It means I know what I'm doing and you'll get stared at for suggesting otherwise.

It means music and food are tools and not civilization. And when it's boring and too much I'll sing inside with all the lyrics I learned by heart in calmer moments.

It means if it's too much-too much I'll lock myself and cry but you won't see it.

And the rewards are unimportant, it's just now and I'm doing this, and it's not as if they're paying me or I forgot they are in fact, paying me.

But the job better not be stupid, or I'll have a name for the progeny and every trait of the psyche of whomever asked for it.

It means fuck yes, I'm good for this, but I'm moving the world and *you*'d better not push me.
..............

 

[niteshift]

Hey Kidge,

Like your style, and like your words. Very well said. Travel well. ( as best you can )

cheers, niteshift

 

[flow]

I hate work. I'd rather be poor then work as hard as some of the doctors I know who make lots of money, buy lots of things, and never have time to enjoy anything (except when they take a vacation). I guess I just need FREE TIME. And I'm talking like 4-5 hours a day, just to let my thoughts and interests wander freely without anything exterior distracting me. I like to daydream, and I hate doing tasks that I don't see the worth in. That being said, I do want a job and some income.. I just don't want to have to work a lot of hours for the rest of my life.

 

[niteshift]

Yeah, well get a well healed patron to support your musical work ( not so hard for a INTP ) or use your intellect to pay for what is really you. Simple really.

cheers, nitshift

 

[Kidege]

Hey Kidge,

Like your style,

You do? I don't. Makes me act like a jerk. I mean, I get the job done, but... *shrugs*
I prefer not to work hard.

and like your words. Very well said. Travel well. ( as best you can )

Thanks.

 

[Tunesimah]

I work hard when I'm in the midst of work. Especially if it's available and the need is pressing or right in front of me. When I'm helping people I always try my hardest to give them what they need.

It's when it comes to free time or any long term plans that I don't exactly work hard. When I come home I just forget everything and go to things that I enjoy instead of doing the work I need to get done.

I need to switch to an office or an environment that has no distractions and just force myself to do the work I need to do.

I don't have an aversion to work, it's always a momentum thing or a breaking it into manageable chunks thing.

That isn't completely true though. I'll often tire of work that is tedious, I'm always looking for the more efficient way of doing something... But this isn't always bad since I'm still working to get a job done.

I'm always looking to work smarter not harder... but I don't avoid hard work if that is the only way.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I kind of accidently backed into working hard.

Granted... I don't think I work hard now. I really don't. But here's my short story:

I was dating this girl, a younger INFP, who kept on grabbing at my time. She wanted to hang out a lot and it was distracting me from other things! I'm unemployed (still am...) and I was having difficulty getting a job, and my parents were putting a lot of pressure on me. I felt like hanging out with her until midnight or 1am and often skipping job-hunt stuff to hang out with her was poor time management.

So after a fight (about me leaving before midnight!) I had a few days to myself. And I did a lot of work! Not a *lot* by niteshift's standards, but it was significant. I also had extra time to spend doing some of my own projects, basic programming and biochem reading.

We've stayed broken up. I feel motivated to do things, and I've really understood the joy in working hard. And I am REALLY looking forward to getting a 8-5 biochemistry job. (I've done biochem lab research before, and I've done 8-5, I just haven't done 8-5 biochem research.)

life is more exciting this way....

 

[Claverhouse]

@ claverhouse, and what have you done in your life, my dear sir, to be such an epitimy of judgement.

Nothing. Yet my judgement is better than yours, which is mere constructive socialist realism...

To sit, and to reflect, is all very well, but the weight of your words willl only be carried upon your actions.

Scarcely, for Ruskin, Nietzsche and Socrates were merely reflecting people, with no great projects to their name. Yet their thoughts, often wrong, but always alive, live through centuries when the hard-working honest man has gone to his long-forgotten reward, and all his 'achievements' have become dust.

To do nothing, is a greater crime than to do evil.

Nonsense. I see you have never been threatened with a boot to the face.

Architecture ? I'll give you the Sydney Opera House. Case closed.

The Sydney Opera House is pure hideous concrete crap. I offer you the Barbican in London, and raise it the South Bank.

I would counter your self obsessed diatribe with the following.....

Where was I self-obsessed, you weak-minded little monkey ? Are you incapable of reading without personalising ?

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

"

Theodore Rosevelt
Speech at the Sorbonne
Paris, France
April 23, 1910

Teddy Roosevelt was a pompous little blowhard who was a good anti-machine politician, but rather a failure in statesmanship. As Gore Vidal put in in Theodore Roosevelt --- An American Sissy, 'There is something strangely infantile in this obsession with dice-loaded physical courage when the only courage that matters in political or even "real" life is moral. Although TR was often reckless and always domineering in politics, he never showed much real courage, and despite some trust-busting, he never took on the great ring of corruption that ruled and rules in this republic. But then, he was born a part of it. At best, he was just a dude with the reform play.'

I am can only wonder why you bother to quote any American president; a collection of some of the least inspiring and most shifty politicians in history. I can certainly respect many politicians' achievements even when I dislike their views and personalities --- such as a Lenin or a Salazar; but Yank ones... no. They are not respectable guides.




You have not produced one shred of evidence, other than faith, why people are obligated to feel the same way you do and why failure to follow these moral dictates is wrong. You will note that I am not arguing that work is bad, but merely that it is frequently pointless and inefficient ( as when a mighty dam is built, but which ruins prior drainage systems ) and that people should not be required to feel pleasure in it as a duty, nor that they should be filled with a gassy pride through performing any labour.


Claverhouse

 

[Kidege]

Okay you two, knock it off.

I know I'm going to regret intervening, but calling each other "parasite", "poor sap" and "weak-minded little monkey" isn't going to achieve anything. Much less a respectful, open atmosphere in this forum.

 

[Aiss]

@Claverhouse - and don't forget many things have been invented by the people who were too lazy to just do the job regular way. Just thought I'd add it since I agree with most of what you've posted in this thread so far.

 

[Tyria]

While I enjoy hard work, I take more pleasure out of thinking how things can be made different/better/more efficiently. I rather enjoy watching shows about how things are made, because mass production has created something much more efficient for the creation/modification of goods and services. Technology has taken away a good portion of time and workers to complete some labor intensive tasks.

One of my most favorite concepts is one of a clockwork city: an entire city of machines dedicated to doing much of the work that people would normally do. I've always wanted to see something like that happen, and perhaps as a city that moves in the sea and over land (or perhaps space).

I do think that much of the work that is done by humans now could probably be done by machines within the next 100-200 years (or less). I find that I am becoming more and more interested in being in a job for what I know instead of how much I can produce.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I enjoy hard work when it's finished. There's a certain high in it for me but I also dread going into it. I'm talking hard physical labor as I never "worked hard" in academia. Personally I don't understand office job type people saying they worked hard.

A co-worker and I once kept count of how many pounds we lifted one slightly below average day and my count came to over 50,000 pounds in 9 hours. That's an approximation of course but it isn't off by more than a couple thousand either way. To me, that is hard work. When you are drenched in sweat and your arms feel too heavy to scratch your nose.

I've never found anything requiring intellect to be hard in that way. Sure, there have been plenty of things I tried to understand and couldn't. Sure, I spent hours in the library researching and writing papers. I never felt the same level of exhaustion or the feeling afterward though so I just don't relate it as hard work. If you ain't bleedin' you ain't workin'.

I also agree with the Rosevelt quote. The type of people he describes are the type I would fantasize throwing through a brick wall. Counter-arguing with a quote by Vidal is a mixture of style over substance fallacy/ad hominem. It failed to address the point.

 

[Cavallier]

I've never really shied away from hard work. If it's physical I figure it's good for my figure. If it's mental I figure I'll learn something. If it's emotional...well, then I run screaming for the hills but then I think a lot of people make things more emotional work than need be.

When I'm given hard work I generally assume I'll learn something from the experience especially if it's something I've never done before. The only time I ever want to avoid hard work is if it's something I've done a million times before and I feel my brains liquefying with boredom. Even then, I'll almost always do it for the opportunity to spend some time inside my head. You don't have to be at home and plugged into a computer to have me time after all. I often write song lyrics during these times.

Edit: Upon further reflection I think I might not have defined "hard work" well enough for myself ...hmmm... I think that perhaps the kinds of things many people think of as "hard work" and therefor something to avoid I don't feel the need to avoid. Physical labor or repetitive tasks suck but I don't try to avoid them. If part of the definition of "hard work" is "something to be avoided" then I suppose I did give my definition of hard work: Emotionally charged situations from which I run screaming.

Well, that was bit wordy.

 

[Latro]

Hey Death,

A practical solution ! Anode/cathode still gets me too. It's a 50/50 guess on my part. I still have problems hooking up jumper leads with cars.

cheers, niteshift

Easy way to remember, at least for me: cations go to the cathode, therefore to balance that electrons must also go to the cathode. Anions go to the anode, therefore to balance that electrons must leave the anode. Thus the cathode "is negative" and the anode "is positive" (though those terms are inherently rather skewed).

The advantage of this is that it tells you about pretty much every part of the cell you might be confused about all at once. About the only thing it doesn't achieve that you might forget is showing which side of a cell diagram is the anode and which side is the cathode (iirc the left side is the anode).

 

[echoplex]

I suppose that INTP work would be working to figure things out. Repetitive work is quite unappealing, although it's something I learn to enjoy when I have to. I tend to treat it like a game: if I finish so-and-so, I can feel X amount of sense of accomplishment.

Where X = the degree to which I'm willing/able to delude myself into believing the task is meaningful or important. *sigh*

 

[niteshift]

@Kidege, don't worry mate, I'm not offended by verbal diahorrea.

@ Claverhouse, in response to what you actually do, the answer was "Nothing".

Precisely. I rest my case.

@Cavallierose, regarding song lyrics.

Have you tried Just Plain Folks ? http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php

Friendly bunch of people. Just introduce yourself on the front page, and tell em niteshift sent ya. They accomadate all types, from beginners, to Grammy Award winners. Have fun.

cheers, niteshift

 

[Kidege]

As long as you realise I was defending the forum and not necessarily you.

 

[niteshift]

Hey Kidege,

I wouldn't be so presumptuous to assume otherwise. Stop thinking so much. You'll give yourself a brain anurism.

cheers, niteshift

 

[Claverhouse]

@ Claverhouse, in response to what you actually do, the answer was "Nothing".

Precisely. I rest my case.

You really are bad at this. A reader only has to look above to see that my answer of "Nothing" was in response to to another question --- "...and what have you done in your life, my dear sir, to be such an epitimy of judgement." to which I replied that I had no achievements to so qualify: and neither do you; if achievement was the only criterion allowed for thinking and judging then we would be ruled by a caste of meritocratic priest-kings.

For you, in true weaselly soviet propagandist text-book style to pretend I replied "Nothing" to a question that was not asked shows your mental bankruptcy --- which may also be adduced from your lack of supporting arguments and pithy style of self-righteous coupla-mindless-words-strung-together pronouncements.


It may also be noticed that I stated I have worked 16 hour days, whereas you merely expressed a longing to do so.



Claverhouse

 

[Claverhouse]

Okay you two, knock it off.

I know I'm going to regret intervening, but calling each other "parasite", "poor sap" and "weak-minded little monkey" isn't going to achieve anything. Much less a respectful, open atmosphere in this forum.

You may note that he opened off with a universal prescription; that I replied with my simple personal opinion on not enjoying hard work; and that he then instantly called me a parasite --- and then added that I should go and do something worthwhile, implying that I wasn't so doing and that he was.

Once one member goes to personalities the gloves are off.


Claverhouse

 

[Waterstiller]

Once one member goes to personalities the gloves are off.

Yeah, but when the gloves are off on the internet your opponent still can't feel a thing. And you still end up swinging madly for all to see.


This guy's either a troll or hopelessly inept. My advice is to shrug it off.


There were some great responses, so it's not a total loss. But I feel as though this innocent thread was another casualty of internet war.

 

[Cavallier]

Stop thinking so much.

Silly nite! "Thinking so much"<---It's What We Do!

There were some great responses, so it's not a total loss. But I feel as though this innocent thread was another casualty of internet war.

...and who would have thought this thread would become a "casualty of internet war". I get the feeling that Nite is like Mother Courage doggedly pushing along her hand cart and Claverhouse has uncharacteristically become a representation of the endlessly turning wheel.

No real offense meant to either of you. *don't hurt me*

 

[niteshift]

".....Silly nite! "Thinking so much"<---It's What We Do!....."

No kidding ? Now cease and desist immediatly ! Oh, that wouldn't work would it ? Re ; The "Mother Courage" comment. Yes, it often does feel like that.

@Claverhouse, my aplogies. The "parasite" comment was in flippant reference to how many thinkers, poets, musicians, artists , are considered by the general public. You sould be used to it by now ? If not, then the comment was directed at the arguement, not yourself personally. Again, my apologies. I'm just stirring the pot.

@Waterstiller, *sigh*, oh well, the inept internet troll will now depart to the corner.

cheers, niteshift