Enlightenment & The Will to Power

[Ex-User (5841)]

Common perception is that these forces are incompatible.

The Buddhist is encouraged to give it all up because it holds them back, while the Machiavellian is encouraged to take all within their grasp so as to enjoy the best of it. How is this conflict resolved if they coexist within the same individual?

Is the Will to Power separate from the ego?

Can one be enlightened or experience "ego death" and still be naturally willed to power, perhaps as the result of having identified a more powerful, more unconventional and generally unrecognized power?

If so, is this recognition a sign of becoming one with a greater power, and doing its bidding?

​

 

[Latte]

Perhaps one could have something not quite like will, but rather acceptance of the path that are not the paths that would lead one astray from one's ideal state of being. That path being one leading to having tremendous power over human affairs, but the path emerging implicationally rather than as a goal in itself.

One could view this as compatible with/another perspective of what you might be conveying.


Note to people who feel an urge to utilize the thread as a venue to question the idea of enlightenment:

It is evident that this is to be a discussion where the axiom of its existence is an axiom. Questioning it would be as pointless as questioning the existence of God in a monotheistic theological discussion or questioning the idea of numbers and quantity in a math study group.

 

[Cognisant]

You don't know what the will to power is.

Nietzsche confronted nihilism and at length came to the realization that it's a two way street, everything is meaningless so there's no reason to do anything, but likewise there's no reason not to do anything so rather than giving in to apathy (though you can if you want) he advocated being motivated for its own sake, to seek power for power's sake, kind of like making lots of money for the sake of being rich.

After all existence may be meaningless but being rich/powerful is still fun.

TL;DR

Nietzsche:

Spoiler

Schopenhauer:

Spoiler

 

[Duxwing]

The concept of 'objective meaning' is linguistically and philosophically absurd. Its definition as an absolute truth requires that proofs of its existence be undoubtable, but every statement requires a justification lest it be doubted, and that justification is itself a statement, and so on unto an infinite, finite, or repeating regress. Furthermore, the word 'meaning' refers to the reaction of a mind to a stimulus--it requires the arguments 'of A' and 'to B'--and thereby defines the concept of 'objective' meaning out of existence.

-Duxwing

 

[Black Rose]

I assume power is no more than a feeling induced to your level of control. Those with the greatest power show the greatest restraint? Though emotion can be harnessed in its use the one who is being used should be considered. The pathways forged conforms to what is learned. Being offset has only few skills attained but still flows when in their zenith. Having states of mind reached with volition increase and resistance decrease to the affect, will not always lead to balance.

The options of power rush(adrenaline) and apathy are not the only ones. There is peace and happiness. From letting go of control and the need to "do" you begin to feel love towards all beings. First relaxation then your body feels pleasure this creates elation then bliss. Eventually you reach infinite consciousness then between perception and non-perception. I have barely produced relaxation but working to get to the next stages, these stages are called jhanas.

To get to some higher power might just be part of realizing your multiple selves in quantum many worlds. I do think that by realizing that the physical conception of your mind is but one place in non-local space you would be one with an as yet greater psyche.

 

[The Introvert]

Stop, drop, roll out from under the covers of pre-conceived ideas and formulate your own idea of the world from what you see. In essence this is what any true Enlightenment idea will tell you; see the world for what it is (or what you think it is, or whatever, because it doesn't matter so long as it matters to you).

I like Nietzsche's stance. It is what it is so do what you like for the sake of like, word.

Plus it accommodates the teary-eyed puppet who thinks they can be what they wish, unaware everything they do is attached to strings. I like to think of the strings as my connection to the master and I can walk on the strings and cut them if I so choose, albeit that would create a lifeless TI and a sad puppet master.

Keep options open, travel (literally and figuratively) as much as you wish, and do what you think is the right thing to do. Instincts, intelligence, and luck will guide you. And possibly the stench of rotting organic material, which tells you you've either found a cemetery or fresh carcase.

Stay away from cemeteries, unless you wish to become a ghost, and keep in mind that hyenas and vultures rule the savannah.

A scavenger will always have a place to be.

 

[DIALECTIC]

Common perception is that these forces are incompatible.

The Buddhist is encouraged to give it all up because it holds them back, while the Machiavellian is encouraged to take all within their grasp so as to enjoy the best of it. How is this conflict resolved if they coexist within the same individual?

Is the Will to Power separate from the ego?

Can one be enlightened or experience "ego death" and still be naturally willed to power, perhaps as the result of having identified a more powerful, more unconventional and generally unrecognized power?

If so, is this recognition a sign of becoming one with a greater power, and doing its bidding?

​

Wouldn't the "will to power" be more of a "J" thing, while "enlightenment" be more of a "P" thing ? Hence why J's go against P's and vice versa...

Circumstances in my earlier years in life forced me from then on to adopt a very strong J attitude (reflecting very much the will to power, and power did i get with all the physical / mental / psyche problems that came with going against my inner P nature !), however in the last couple of years, following a "religious experience" my ego pretty much died slowly... From then, the pursuit of enlightenment has been my sole interest, and i can't even go back to the old "J" ways because i have zero interest in power, money, women, sex, etc. (been there done it).

So to answer the original poster; NO in my opinion both forces are totally incompatible like the Yang / Yin and yet complete each other like the Tao ! However hasn't it been said before that the "P" way is the way of the Buddha i.e spiritually from bottom to top ?

I wonder also if the strongest P types aren't all in fact J types going against their own nature and vice versa ?

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

It's a paradox. To live enlightenment is at once humility and power at once. It frees oneself and at the same time empowers you. Intent is key here. You can't have intensions of power in gaining enlightenment. The power comes AFTER.

 

[DIALECTIC]

It's a paradox. To live enlightenment is at once humility and power at once. It frees oneself and at the same time empowers you. Intent is key here. You can't have intensions of power in gaining enlightenment. The power comes AFTER.

Or maybe one just needs first to establish / attain sufficient power in order to realize later the futility of it, and therefore chase after enlightenment / self-actualization afterwards... Wouldn't it then be a clear case of Carl Jung's enantiodromia ?

Enantiodromia. Literally "running contrary to", referring to the emergence of the unconscious opposite in the course of time. This characteristic phenomenon practically always occurs when an extreme, one-sided tendency dominates conscious life; in time an equally powerful counterposition is built up, which first inhibits the conscious performance and subsequently breaks through the conscious control. ("Definitions," ibid., par. 709)

Enantiodromia is typically experienced in conjunction with symptoms associated with acute neurosis, and often foreshadows a rebirth of the personality.

The grand plan on which the unconscious life of the psyche is constructed is so inaccessible to our understanding that we can never know what evil may not be necessary in order to produce good by enantiodromia, and what good may very possibly lead to evil. ("The Phenomenology of the Spirit in Fairytales", Collected Works 9i, par. 397)

 

[kantor1003]

Is the Will to Power separate from the ego?

For Nietzche the will to power is prior to, or more fundamental, than even the darwinian notion of self-preservation. If it has primacy over self-preservation then I would venture to guess that it also has primacy over the ego.
Also, and this is an important point, the will to power isn't simply individuals attempting to dominate others around them, trying to impose their own moral/value/belief system on society, but this power struggle also takes place inside the individual itself. This is easily admitted on the grounds of personal experience where we often notice in our selves different beliefs and values clashing against each other where each will attempt to 'dominate the other' so as to achieve what we might call psychic hegemony. To give a lucid example, you are at the crossroads deciding whether to take left or right. One set of beliefs/values will have you take in one direction; 'I believe that in taking to the right, I will have a greater chance to find diamonds', or 'I should go to the right. It's the most dangerous path, and it will bolster courage and help me grow'. Another set of beliefs/values will have you go in another direction; 'I believe that in taking to the left, I will find a suitable place to rest', or 'I should go to the left, because I think it would be the safer option. Though it might not bolster courage, I will be comfortable'. Both of these sets will in this case strive to lay claim to the other by making it's presence more dominant, and neither of them will fall to rest before it has subsumed the other under it's 'will'.

Can one be enlightened or experience "ego death" and still be naturally willed to power, perhaps as the result of having identified a more powerful, more unconventional and generally unrecognized power?
If so, is this recognition a sign of becoming one with a greater power, and doing its bidding?

From the considerations given above I doubt there is any possibility within the Nietzhean notion of the will to power for there to be any set of mental states (ie. 'enlightened', or 'moderately tempered') not subject to it's principle and neither for there to be room for a more 'powerful' unrecognized power if it's not the will to power itself, which is to say, there is no escaping it. The will to power seems to be the very essence of what it is to be and, I think, it would be included in any definition he would give of man.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

Or maybe one just needs first to establish / attain sufficient power in order to realize later the futility of it, and therefore chase after enlightenment / self-actualization afterwards... Wouldn't it then be a clear case of Carl Jung's enantiodromia ?

Indeed. I think this is highly probable. Most of humanity is driven to chase after falsity or go down paths that lead to dead ends. This is because of how imperfect and self-deluding we are or neurosis as the Jungian concept talks about. This is our attempt to be whole and usually includes harming yourself and other's but at the same time, if we are open to a shift in perspective, it will lead us to enlightenment.

In your previous post, you had a 'religious experience' that lead you/is leading you in a different path. Could this be at least in part due to the false path you were on? I believe it does...it creates another paradox. ALL paths lead to enlightenment including false paths that show you through experience where you need to go. I want to emphasize experience. I think experience is necessary and not just intellectual understanding. There has to be a 'dark night of the soul' that lifts the vail from your eyes and shakes you on an emotional level to the core followed by courageously living your new path. Does this happen to all? No, I don't believe so. Yes, all paths lead you to enlightenment but do all 'drink from it'? No, sadly they don't.

I had a spiritual experience too and so I talk about this through my experience. I wonder if this has been similar to your 'religious experience'?

 

[wonkavision]

Common perception is that these forces are incompatible.

The Buddhist is encouraged to give it all up because it holds them back, while the Machiavellian is encouraged to take all within their grasp so as to enjoy the best of it. How is this conflict resolved if they coexist within the same individual?

​

Allow me to suggest a BIBLICAL example of how these two things can coexist, and in a VERY POWERFUL WAY.


1. GOD is ALL POWERFUL and ACCOMPLISHES ALL that he DESIRES to do.

2. MAN'S WILL is NATURALLY OPPOSED to GOD'S WILL and is therefore FRUSTRATED.

3. BUT IF and WHEN GOD ALIGNS a man's will with his OWN, there is NOTHING that will stop that man from acheiving his own will, because it's GOD'S!

THUS, you have Apostles and prophets, etc. performing absolute MIRACLES by the POWER of GOD!

You have an army of 1000 men UTTERLY DESTROYING an army of TENS of THOUSANDS.

You have entire CITY WALLS coming down when God's people SHOUT at the wall,

you have ONE MAN destroying an entire army with the jawbone of an ass,

a shepherd boy defeating a giant,

and the LIST goes ON and ON.


What ALL these things POINT TO, and the greatest example of ALL, is the GOD-man, the LORD Jesus Christ.

He demonstrates GREATEST HUMILITY and the GREATEST POWER COMBINED.

There's NO LIMIT to his power, as he is BOTH GOD and MAN.

His will is PERFECTLY ALIGNED with GOD'S because HE HIMSELF is GOD.

He can even raise men from the DEAD, and yes, he even raised HIMSELF from the DEAD!

For what PURPOSE?

To accomplish the WILL of GOD in the SALVATION of his chosen people.


NO ONE can resist his will. He's ALMIGHTY GOD.

He said:

“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself.
I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

(John 10:17-18)

He said:

“I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

I and My Father are one.”

(John 10:25-30)

THAT'S how HUMILITY and the WILL to POWER are combined.

And there's no force in the Universe more powerful than that.

 

[Puffy]

^ From link in OP: "The will to power describes what Nietzsche may have believed to be the main driving force in humans: achievement, ambition, the striving to reach the highest possible position in life; these are all manifestations of the will to power."

I don't think the will to power is being in alignment with God's will, it's a description of something fundamental to man as Kantor describes well (what you're calling Man's will here?). You're not really synthesising enlightenment and the will to power as the OP asks, you're saying the human will to power and Christian ideas of transcendence are mutually exclusive.

Either way I think Nietzsche and Christianity are probably about as arch-nemesis as you can get.

 

[wonkavision]

^ From link in OP: "The will to power describes what Nietzsche may have believed to be the main driving force in humans: achievement, ambition, the striving to reach the highest possible position in life; these are all manifestations of the will to power."

I don't think the will to power is being in alignment with God's will, it's a description of something fundamental to man as Kantor describes well (what you're calling Man's will here?). You're not really synthesising enlightenment and the will to power as the OP asks, you're saying the human will to power and Christian ideas of transcendence are mutually exclusive.

Either way I think Nietzsche and Christianity are probably about as arch-nemesis as you can get.

Yes, exactly. The main driving force in humans seems to be achievement, ambition, the striving to reach the highest possible position in life.

And what I'm saying is that this driving force in man is necessarily FRUSTRATED because it is ULTIMATELY AGAINST GOD'S will, and GOD is ULTIMATELY in CONTROL, not man.

GOD has his OWN "Will to Power" that is NEVER FRUSTRATED, so ENLIGHTENMENT would be WILLINGLY SUBMITTING to GOD'S WILL.

ENLIGHTENMENT would be HUMBLING oneself before God and ALIGNING one's OWN will with HIS.

Now, it's TRUE that a man NORMALLY would have to GIVE UP his own will IN EXCHANGE for God's will, THUS the "Will to Power" and GOD's WILL are GENERALLY MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

But I'm not talking about the "norm".

I'm talking about a MIRACULOUS re-creation.

What I'm saying is that when one is "BORN AGAIN from ABOVE", his will BECOMES ALIGNED with God's will, but he ACTUALLY does POSSESS this WILL himself.

In other words, the born again believer no longer HAS the problem of his OWN WILL and GOD'S will being MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

His will is ALIGNED with GOD's WILL.

That's how they're reconciled.

If that doesn't make sense to you, I don't know what else to say.
I'm doing the best I can with the limits of human language, but ultimately it requires SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING.

THUS, the statement from Christ I previously quoted. The UNREGENERATE man, the one who is NOT born again from above, CANNOT understand the things of the Spirit.

The miracle of the "new birth" happens like this:

Just as God caused the light to shine in the darkness when he created the world out of nothing, in the same way, God causes a light to shine in the darkness of a man's understanding, so that he perceives SPRITUAL THINGS.

And NOTHING SHORT of this miracle can reconcile the will of a man with God's.

Jesus said:

“I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.

But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. "

He said:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

(John 3:3)

 

[Puffy]

What you're advocating is what Nietzsche called slave morality.

Once aligned with God's will, your ambition, your striving, your achievement (man's will to power) is for naught. There is only pleasing the master and satisfying the master's will which you take as your own.

It's not even a case of your will aligning with God's for at this point no autonomous will exists, it's more like you disappear into God. Christ asked man to die to him, your will doesn't align, it's willingly assimilated; when God looks at you He accepts you for He sees Christ as your representative.

I just don't think this satisfies what he meant by the will to power. If it was to be synthesised with some kind of enlightenment/ knowledge of a higher intelligence, I think one would still have to be striving towards becoming a master (i.e. have one's own ambition, goals -- an autonomous will) in synthesis with this knowledge. Completely prostrating yourself towards it would be what he calls a slave-like quality, which is against the ambition of the will to power.

I'm not completely Nietzschean by the way, humility is something I strive for in my relationships, I just think you're talking of something mutually exclusive to the will to power.

 

[wonkavision]

What you're advocating is what Nietzsche called slave morality.

Once aligned with God's will, your ambition, your striving, your achievement (man's will to power) is for naught. There is only pleasing the master and satisfying the master's will which you take as your own.

It's not a case of your will aligning with God's for at this point no autonomous will exists, it's more like you disappear into God. Christ asked man to die to him, your will doesn't align, it's willingly assimilated; when God looks at you He accepts you for He sees Christ as your representative.

I just don't think this satisfies what he meant by the will to power. If it was to be synthesised with some kind of enlightenment/ knowledge of a higher intelligence, I think one would still have to be striving towards becoming a master (i.e. have one's own ambition, goals -- an autonomous will) in synthesis with this knowledge. Completely prostrating yourself towards it would be what he calls a slave-like quality, which is against the ambition of the will to power.

I'm not completely Nietzschean by the way, humility is something I strive for in my relationships, I just think you're talking of something mutually exclusive to the will to power.

That's not entirely Biblically accurate.

You're talking about what is commonly called "Christianity," which absolutely IS "slave morality." I agree with Nietzsche on that.

But I'm talking about what the Bible ACTUALLY says, and it has NOTHING to DO with what is commonly called "Christianity."

Bottom line, REAL Christians are NOT mindless slaves. They've been ADOPTED by God as SONS. They are motivated by LOVE. And God actually LOVES them, as you said, because he looks at them and sees Christ.

But I see no point in debating it.

For the most part, I agree with what you're saying.


And as far as whether or not I'm on topic....

To me, what I'm saying seems totally relevant to the O.P.

But I understand the limitations of language.

I meant to inject a unique standpoint to the discussion, but I may have just gotten off topic.

Carry on.

 

[Puffy]

To me, what I'm saying seems totally relevant to the O.P.

But I understand the limitations of language.

I meant to inject a unique standpoint to the discussion, but I may have just gotten off topic.

Carry on.

I don't think it's off-topic.

Can one be enlightened or experience "ego death" and still be naturally willed to power, perhaps as the result of having identified a more powerful, more unconventional and generally unrecognized power?

If so, is this recognition a sign of becoming one with a greater power, and doing its bidding?

​

Sounds like it's a central part of the OP's question.

 

[wonkavision]

Once aligned with God's will, your ambition, your striving, your achievement (man's will to power) is for naught. There is only pleasing the master and satisfying the master's will which you take as your own.

It's not a case of your will aligning with God's for at this point no autonomous will exists, it's more like you disappear into God....

But that's absurd.

Listen:

Let's say you and I want to have lunch together.

If I want to go to McDonald's, and YOU ALSO want to go to McDonald's, does that mean that we don't each have our own autonomous will?

Or how does our wills being aligned make our individual wills "for naught"?

Has each of our wills "disappeared" into the other?


Please explain this to me.

I really don't understand where you're coming from.

 

[Puffy]

Just checking....

We ARE talking about THE WILL IN GENERAL in this thread, aren't we?

I mean, if we are specifically talking about Nietzsche's conception of the "Will to Power" vs. Buddhist "ego-transcendence", then I don't really have much to say.

But if we're talking about human will vs. some other will, then I have LOTS to say.

I haven't even gotten to the so-called "paradox" of Freedom of the Will vs. Bondage of the Will, and free-will vs. predestination--which really is NO paradox at all.....


Is this getting too THEOLOGICAL?

if so, then I'll just bow out.

I'm unsure, I thought it was specifically Nietzsche's will to power as that was what's in the link. I don't mind PMing you instead either way.

 

[DIALECTIC]

In your previous post, you had a 'religious experience' that lead you/is leading you in a different path. Could this be at least in part due to the false path you were on?

Yes i had been on a nihilistic path since age 13 or so... Extreme / racist views, aggression, violence, a huge ego, hypersexuality, money, drugs, drug dealing, prison, etc. You name it.
My religious experience in August 2010, at age 36, put me on the right track even though for about 8 years or so prior my body had actually been trying to do so thru constant / daily somatizations: hypertension, thanatophobia, hypercondria, panic attacks, anxiety attacks etc. In the last 2 years or so all somatizations disappeared ! In fact my health has never been so good ever since my metanoia !!!

I had a spiritual experience too and so I talk about this through my experience. I wonder if this has been similar to your 'religious experience'?

I would be curious to know your circumstances, how old were you, was it following depression ? What did you exactly experience ? I experienced emotional and intellectual ecstasy at once, it felt like i downloaded data from some sort of "super consciousness" for about 10 days the whole thing lasted for. However i have no exact recollection, it was WAY too intense / fast: my brain got saturated with too much data but it was a lot better than sex... I had purposefully isolated myself from people (i would only communicate with them thru SMS) in order to enjoy the "show": a very selfish pleasure but well worth it.

I had many similar experiences since but never as intense, probably cos i had never been so low / empty / stressed prior to it.
However every single time, the crash (the return to material reality) afterwards has been dreadful.

I pretty much know how to induce those states of somewhat altered consciousness nowadays but the return to reality is way too harsh so if /when i do go up i make sure i don't go too high because the higher i go, the lower i will crash afterwards. However it gave me a taste of a transcendental reality where everything is pure Intellect and pure Love...

I guess such a spiritual / mystical / religious / dialectical experience is basically Plato's allegory of the Cave when the prisoner leaves the cave and experiences the wisdom of the Sun / the "world of Forms "!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69F7GhASOdM

 

[The Introvert]

ALL paths lead to enlightenment including false paths that show you through experience where you need to go. I want to emphasize experience. I think experience is necessary and not just intellectual understanding.

Buddhism is emphatic concerning this.

Experience and understanding, but to understand you must first experience. Then you can shift perception to get more out of experience. But all intellectual stimulation must first start with an experience.

In fact, you can even experience 'bouts' of Enlightenment, even if you're not close with dharma. You can understand before you even understand, so long as you experience first.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

Buddhism is emphatic concerning this.

Experience and understanding, but to understand you must first experience. Then you can shift perception to get more out of experience. But all intellectual stimulation must first start with an experience.

In fact, you can even experience 'bouts' of Enlightenment, even if you're not close with dharma. You can understand before you even understand, so long as you experience first.

I've not studied Buddhism but thank you for the information! Funny how I said nothing new as the phrase goes...it's all been said/experienced before!
Onward

 

[kantor1003]

That's not entirely Biblically accurate.

You're talking about what is commonly called "Christianity," which absolutely IS "slave morality." I agree with Nietzsche on that.

But I'm talking about what the Bible ACTUALLY says, and it has NOTHING to DO with what is commonly called "Christianity."

I'm not sure what you hold the bible to proclaim, but if you are advocating virtues like kindness, empathy, humility, acceptance etc. then that can't be reconciled with Nietzsche view on the higher, noble spirit, but rather with the lower, submitting, and weak - the very type he urges us (wo/man) to transcend.
Regarding Nietzche and a belief in god: I have only read two of Nietzches works, but I haven't seen any direct obstacles to holding a belief in some god while accepting most of Nietsches ideas. The founders of any religion, for instance, I'm sure Nietzche would identify with the noble spirit, the higher type. After all, they have succeeded in impregnating a whole society with their own created (or discovered, if you believe) values and beliefs. A man so constituted as to manage such a feat is not operating on virtues signifying the lower type, that of acceptance and humility and the like, but that of courage and strength.
What Nietzche is criticizing, I think, is the way in which institutionalized christianity has cultivated a certain moral scheme. One that is, among other things, life denying, death-worshipping, submitting and weak. Pro-death, pro-some other worldly realm, rather than pro-life and pro-flesh. If this is written into the fabric of the christian dogma (likely), then christianity isn't compatible with Nietzhe's view on what man ought to be, but if the bible allows a life-affirming interpretation, and one that stresses virtues like honor, honesty, strength, courage and the like then I don't see any clear incompatibility issues.

This might be somewhat surprising for some, but one of the virtues that Nietzche identifies with the noble spirit is in fact a submitting to a higher power. Why? Well, to my understanding Nietzche understands morals as a means. In the case of slave morals (those set of virtues identified with the lower type) it is a means to endure the hardship of their lives. So, in the lower type of man, submitting to a higher power isn't seen as valuable because they have no idle hours and must spend most of their time in poor working conditions under the leadership of someone else. Therefore, instead, virtues like acceptance and kindness is needed*. In the case of the higher type, they are not in the need to spend their time working and could, if they so choose, spend days in idleness. Therefore, submitting to a higher power is seen as a sign of virtue; you have willingly sacrificed your own time, time you could spend indulging your appetites, for some higher cause - it being god, a set of ethical principles, or whatever else.

*after all, you want to be kind with those having power over you and you want acceptance to endure an existence consisting of hard labor under the rule of someone else. For those in power, however, these virtues are not needed.

 

[redbaron]

The bible is relevant how exactly?

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

Yes i had been on a nihilistic path since age 13 or so... Extreme / racist views, aggression, violence, a huge ego, hypersexuality, money, drugs, drug dealing, prison, etc. You name it.
My religious experience in August 2010, at age 36, put me on the right track even though for about 8 years or so prior my body had actually been trying to do so thru constant / daily somatizations: hypertension, thanatophobia, hypercondria, panic attacks, anxiety attacks etc. In the last 2 years or so all somatizations disappeared ! In fact my health has never been so good ever since my metanoia !!!


I would be curious to know your circumstances, how old were you, was it following depression ? What did you exactly experience ? I experienced emotional and intellectual ecstasy at once, it felt like i downloaded data from some sort of "super consciousness" for about 10 days the whole thing lasted for. However i have no exact recollection, it was WAY too intense / fast: my brain got saturated with too much data but it was a lot better than sex... I had purposefully isolated myself from people (i would only communicate with them thru SMS) in order to enjoy the "show": a very selfish pleasure but well worth it.

I had many similar experiences since but never as intense, probably cos i had never been so low / empty / stressed prior to it.
However every single time, the crash (the return to material reality) afterwards has been dreadful.

I pretty much know how to induce those states of somewhat altered consciousness nowadays but the return to reality is way too harsh so if /when i do go up i make sure i don't go too high because the higher i go, the lower i will crash afterwards. However it gave me a taste of a transcendental reality where everything is pure Intellect and pure Love...

I guess such a spiritual / mystical / religious / dialectical experience is basically Plato's allegory of the Cave when the prisoner leaves the cave and experiences the wisdom of the Sun / the "world of Forms "!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69F7GhASOdM

Thank you for your description. I know for me it's difficult to describe and the allegory does capture the stark difference before and after the experience. It's also true that to try and convey this experience to those who haven't experienced something similar, will fall on deaf ears. As I mentioned before, EXPERIENCE is key.

I'll try and capture the antecedents. It happened around the time of a severe personal crisis, my failing 17 yr marriage and eventual divorce. This was about 10 years ago and I was late 30's or early 40's (can't remember exactly). I felt like my life was slowly coming to an apex. I felt the great tension and forces moving me toward some eventual outcome but I didn't know what. At that time, I was fuitilty and furiously trying to keep it together (myself and the marriage) BUT in the background noise of your thoughts and unconscious, you know and feel it in your bones that you're descending, going to shit, deteriorating and you can't stop. It was a severe feeling of spinning out of control or a crucible that would forge you into what? I had no idea. My experience happened after my then husband separated and the children were away. I was alone with my thoughts and mindlessly cleaning the house to a particularly sad song I had playing. I sat down to take a break and sighed...that's when I the veil lifted from my eyes and I saw myself most clearly for who I truly was/is. I cried like I'd never cried before and I felt like I was on my knees. I think I incorporated the ugly and evil side of myself that I had split off or rejected previous to this. It was the type of pain that cleansed and healed rather than debilitated and diminished. Afterwards I felt more real, genuine, at peace with myself, more loving, compassionate of myself and others including my ex and I functioned like I'd never functioned before. The slave analogy is spot on...like I had taken the shackles off myself and became aware of this whole new world in
myself.
The process was like Alice going through the looking glass. I won't nor do I think I can go back to the old me. The crucible changed and forged me to someone else That experience and it's aftereffects is the main reason why I hold to the notion that I trust in the process and never the outcome.

 

[The Void]

Ego don't really die until you die.

The superficial self always remain acting as a something that help us interact.
May be during enlightenment one views reality without ego, that is without delusions.
But without ego you would be a stone, you can;t connect or communicate.
The best you can do, is get detached, and watch your ego as in a movie, and watch things go on.

I had noticed this thing.

Will to power -> process of becoming.

Will to power = true will?
True will is more specific version of will to power?

Whatever...just call it will to power....
I am not involving Niet's views in it.


Enlightenment (from the common understanding (if not the teachings distorted) -> kill the will, just 'be', no need to become.

I support -> Become while just being.

Will to power is natural. So I think it is better to surrender to the will, and let it work without resistence, and watch yourself become, while just 'being'.......i.e seeking\becoming, without tension, without obsession or expection....i.e if things go wrong, and path gets blocked,
you still just remain 'being' and without suffering just because you can not become, and then you can choose the path of least resistance to get out of the loophole.

 

[Cognisant]

Ego is everything!

All is vanity so the only legitimate reason to want to do anything is for your own ego, even if you choose to lay down and die you're still only doing so because for some pathetic reason that appeals to you, it's all very emo & Shakespearian I guess, still go lay against a wall or something so I don't have to step over you.

Edit: I thought the first line was "ego doesn't matter until you die", whoops my bad, small screen, anyway I stand by the gist of what I said.

Will to power is natural. So I think it is better to surrender to the will, and let it work without resistence, and watch yourself become, while just 'being'.......i.e seeking\becoming, without tension, without obsession or expection....i.e if things go wrong, and path gets blocked,
you still just remain 'being' and without suffering just because you can not become, and then you can choose the path of least resistance to get out of the loophole.

The path of least resistance goes nowhere, if you want to be true to yourself serve your ego and the way to serve your ego is to impose it upon the world, to make the world reflect you.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc

 

[The Void]

Ego is everything!

All is vanity so the only legitimate reason to want to do anything is for your own ego, even if you choose to lay down and die you're still only doing so because for some pathetic reason that appeals to you, it's all very emo & Shakespearian I guess, still go lay against a wall or something so I don't have to step over you.

Edit: I thought the first line was "ego doesn't matter until you die", whoops my bad, small screen, anyway I stand by the gist of what I said.


The path of least resistance goes nowhere, if you want to be true to yourself serve your ego and the way to serve your ego is to impose it upon the world, to make the world reflect you.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc

Least resistence = least mental + physical resistence.

I don't need to serve my ego.
My ego serves itself, now a days.

If all you want is for example eat human flesh and it is a hard work to do....
but if you really really want it, then the path of least resistence woudl be to eat it,
because it will be harder to fight with your inner will to eat it and suppress it continously and induce more suffering.

So indirectly I was saying the same thing as you.

Let the ego loose, I sleep in the void, and ego blabs in the forum. The deeper self is just awareness which is just aware, and just that.... ego is everything else.

By going to the void one can only attain selective apathy and become immune to ego's suffering while being able to enjoy with the ego.

 

[Cognisant]

Hey now there's nothing wrong with feeling indignant, the great thing about having pride is that you have something to lose, something at stake, if you've ever played Dark Souls to the end you'll know what I mean, life is a game and the game is all the more enjoyable for its ups and downs, it's fun to lose because when you get what you lost back it proves you never really needed it.

To rise, fall and rise again shows the world that you're not just proud, rather that you belong up there, the natural order yields to your ambition.

 

[The Void]

Hey now there's nothing wrong with feeling indignant, the great thing about having pride is that you have something to lose, something at stake, if you've ever played Dark Souls to the end you'll know what I mean, life is a game and the game is all the more enjoyable for its ups and downs, it's fun to lose because when you get what you lost back it proves you never really needed it.

To rise, fall and rise again shows the world that you're not just proud, rather that you belong up there, the natural order yields to your ambition.

I couldn't even finsh the first level of dark souls (finished the tutorial level).
Yes I know what you mean. I played it with a cheat then and it was so damn boring.
I guess I will play it again someday. That game sure have a strange something,
a wierd attraction.
It is much more fun to lose and gain as a game. Playing the game as a game.
Also it is fun to be serious, like immersing in totally in like stalker... too.
It depends.
I guess in the end, we don't have much of a choice, and things just happens, so it is pretty vain to worry stuff about it, and we just do what the universe makes us to do. We can only accept or not accept, but may be even if we accept or not depends on the universe.

 

[Cognisant]

Y'know when you meet that demon and a message pops up telling you to run away?
I don't, I kill him with the broken sword.

Spoiler

 

[The Void]

Y'know when you meet that demon and a message pops up telling you to run away?
I don't, I kill him with the broken sword.

Spoiler

I do that type of stuff in hitman. Kill everyone.
"There will be no one to notice if there is no one alive" -Me.
That is perfect stealth.

My system is poor, I invested everything in skyrim, added more than hundred mods (the vanilla is lame), to give difficulty, immersive graphics, new modded lands, with pitch black nights (a torch is compulsory to see), made it looking more reaslitic than real life. But save game got corrupted and lost all interest from high-fi gaming.

And I don't get fps beyond 20 though (I only get 20 if I am lucky enough). I am sick of those lags.

I guess I should now focus on the real life game.

 

[scorpiomover]

AFAIK, Buddha was a prince who was trained in all forms of warfare and military strategy, in order to learn how to keep his people safe when he would become king. He eventually realised that the root of warfare, is to try to control the things that are external to oneself, in order to keep hold of the things that one values and loves. He also realised that all things change. So, while one may be able to temporarily exert enough control to keep hold of the things and people one values in the short term, long-term, those things will also pass, and so it is ultimately a fruitless endeavour. Better to master what is always with you, the self, so that one can make oneself let go of things when they will pass. In summary, having external loci of control is ultimately doomed to failure. So better to focus on internal loci of control.

AFAIK, Nietzsche realised that most things that most people do, are to try to control things external to oneself, in order to keep hold of the things that one values and loves, which he called "the Will to Power". However, ultimately, the effort is bound to fail in the long term, for the same reasons as the Buddha realised. So the most useful strategy is to control the self. Such a person he termed "the Übermensch". In summary, having external loci of control is ultimately doomed to failure. So better to focus on internal loci of control.

They are both saying the same thing, but from different angles.

 

[The Void]

The external self is superficial, and the most impermanent of all.
It not something that alway 'is'. Because it is like a machine, that is always changing.
By directing your will you can do anything. Play dark souls with a broken sword or anything.
A hopeless math student turned into a human calculator.
But all that can be lost. Just an accident can hamper the mind, and all may be lost.
People can lose memories, lose reflexes, ability to learn new faces, people and everything, or turn mad.
All mastery will go into trash can.

Even I gained some mental mastery, learned to change reality with my will and thoughts, and gained some dark secret powers, but lost all of them. May be I still have em but don't use em anymore.

All will went to the Void in the end, and that is why it is fun. Gaining everything for permanence will so damn boring.

But that which always is, is the underlying self, the pure awareness, but thats state is just
'is' nothing to master about that, nothing to change but just be it.

Mastering the superficial self is more like leveling up in a game. We may do it, for just the sake of it. But it is still as unvain as a game.

 

[The Void]

The external self is superficial, and the most impermanent of all.
It not something that alway 'is'. Because it is like a machine, that is always changing.
By directing your will you can do anything. Play dark souls with a broken sword or anything.
A hopeless math student turned into a human calculator.
But all that can be lost. Just an accident can hamper the mind, and all may be lost.
People can lose memories, lose reflexes, ability to learn new faces, people and everything, or turn mad.
All mastery will go into trash can.

Even I gained some mental mastery, learned to change reality with my will and thoughts, and gained some dark secret powers, but lost all of them. May be I still have em but don't use em anymore.

All will went to the Void in the end, and that is why it is fun. Gaining everything for permanence will so damn boring.

But that which always is, is the underlying self, the pure awareness, but thats state is just
'is' nothing to master about that, nothing to change but just be it.

Mastering the superficial self is more like leveling up in a game. We may do it, for just the sake of it. But it is still as unvain as a game.

You are just deluded, brother.
Those were just co-incidences.
You are turning into confirmation bias.

 

[TBerg]

The ubermensch loves, dreams, thinks, enjoys, hates--all for its own sake. S/he does not ask for external validation or validation from a principle. The ubermensch does it just to do it, and does it with a mastery that is beautiful without wearing too much makeup. Beauty becomes truth and truth becomes beauty, allowing for one to be a member of both churches without being a blasphemer.