• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Does Entropy Have an Opposite?

Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,022
---
Does it? If so, what is it?

If not, why wouldn't it? Why isn't there an equal and opposite entropic force? Why would entropy be unidirectional? Why no gradient?

Order and disorder work in conjunction, correct?

I present the humble idea of extropy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negentropy
 

BigApplePi

Banned
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,984
---
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
Does it? If so, what is it?

If not, why wouldn't it? Why isn't there an equal and opposite entropic force? Why would entropy be unidirectional? Why no gradient?

Order and disorder work in conjunction, correct?

I present the humble idea of extropy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negentropy
I didn't read the entire link, but how about this?

If entropy represents what happens if you leave something alone, the opposite would be to input something to the system from the outside.

In a closed system, there are internal forces, so there must be lots of equal and opposite forces inside. I don't know what the direction of the entire system would be. But it must give the appearance of running down because a high energy action reacts statistically with many things imparting energy to each, each of which displays less energy. The sum remains the same though.

Does this answer or am I missing the point?
 
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,022
---
I didn't read the entire link, but how about this?

If entropy represents what happens if you leave something alone, the opposite would be to input something to the system from the outside.

In a closed system, there are internal forces, so there must be lots of equal and opposite forces inside. I don't know what the direction of the entire system would be. But it must give the appearance of running down because a high energy action reacts statistically with many things imparting energy to each, each of which displays less energy.
I'd say it makes sense except that the opposite force doesn't have to be external. One man can remove bricks from a wall as fast as another can stack them. Sisyphus has a counterpart.

Would the entire system have a direction? I don't think so.

"The sum remains the same though." As does the song, my friend.
Does this answer or am I missing the point?
Oh, you/we get it. But how to express it...
 

Wolf18

a who
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Dec 24, 2012
Messages
575
---
Location
Far away from All This
Well, the problem is the difference between no entropy (absolute 0?) and negative entropy. I.e, what is the opposite of the integer 5, -5 or 0?

SW
 
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,022
---
Well, the problem is the difference between no entropy (absolute 0?) and negative entropy. I.e, what is the opposite of the integer 5, -5 or 0?

SW
What's the difference between light and darkness; or the sum of the two? The same for matter and antimatter.

The opposite of 5 (entropy) is -5.

What if order actually follows the first law and is neither created nor destroyed?
 
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,022
---

SpaceYeti

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 11:15 AM
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
5,592
---
Location
Crap
Note that it doesn't say what the energy is used for; order or disorder.

Obviously order. In the entropic sense, disorder is the increase of entropy, so usable energy would then be order. They're terms I don't really like, though, because they're too ambiguous.

The opposite of entropy (which is the lack of usable energy) is usable energy. Just like the opposite of dark (which is the lack of light) is light.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Today 11:15 AM
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,691
---
Complexity is the opposite of entropy. Which interestingly implies that evolution is an anti-entropic processes, which it is. This leads fundamentalists to try and prove therefore that evolution can't occur, which is ridiculous of course. While the entire system (the universe) trends towards entropy, locally the opposite can happen. At any rate our Sun generates so much entropy that our piddly evolution is just a round off error.
 

Hawkeye

Banned
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
2,424
---
Location
Schmocation
Entropy doesn't have an exact opposite rather, it has an inverse partner called ectropy (sometimes spelt "extropy" as in the first post).

As entropy increases, ectropy decreases and visa versa.
 

s0cratus

Banned
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Messages
366
---
Does it? If so, what is it?

If not, why wouldn't it?
Why isn't there an equal and opposite entropic force?
Why would entropy be unidirectional?
Why no gradient?

Order and disorder work in conjunction, correct?

I present the humble idea of extropy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negentropy

Does Entropy Have an Opposite?

An opposite process to entropy is a big bang.
==.
 

BigApplePi

Banned
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,984
---
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
Is a watch spring winding down an example of entropy? If so, would it have an opposite?
 

Selten

Redshirt
Local time
Today 7:15 PM
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
10
---
The opposite of entropic processes is training.
 
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,022
---
The opposite of entropic processes is training.
I'm not quite sure how to respond to this because "training" makes no sense given the context. But you're probably right. :D
entropy is the opposite of order, is it not?

So any process which creates order would be the opposite of an entropic process.
Yes. :D

At the time, this thread was proposed in conjunction with a debate on the shape, form, and status of the universe. The general idea being that if entropy > extropy the universe can be flat and expanding while if entropy = extropy then the universe may not be flat nor expanding, just moving.
 

NSINTP

Member
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
34
---
Life is the opposite to entropy. Think of a tree. The molecules in the dirt and water are ordered into a mighty tree which propagates more reverse entropy through seeds which germinate and sprout instead of decaying into the ground or being eaten. Not my insight but thought I would share that
 
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,022
---
Life is the opposite to entropy. Think of a tree. The molecules in the dirt and water are ordered into a mighty tree which propagates more reverse entropy through seeds which germinate and sprout instead of decaying into the ground or being eaten. Not my insight but thought I would share that
You're right, but it extends to more than just life though (unless you argue that some degree of consciousness is ubiquitous throughout the universe, which well.... I do :D). It's a general (unrecognized) axiom of systems, and evolution (change over time that is identifiable through some level of pattern recognition) is often its manifestation.

But this quickly delves into that gray area between science and philosophy... :storks:
 

s0cratus

Banned
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Messages
366
---
Today everybody knows that the Universe had a beginning from 'Big Bang'.
Alternative question:
Can the Universe begin to exist from Absolute Vacuum Zero: T=0K?
==..
We have two opinions about vacuum:
1
The most fundamental question facing 21st century physics will be:
What is the vacuum? As quantum mechanics teaches us, with
its zero point energy this vacuum is not empty and the word
vacuum is a gross misnomer!
/ Prof. Friedwardt Winterberg /
2
Why do physicists refuse to take vacuum as a fundament of Universe?
Book : ‘Dreams of a final theory’ by Steven Weinberg. Page 138.
‘ It is true . . . there is such a thing as absolute zero; we cannot
reach temperatures below absolute zero not because we are not
sufficiently clever but because temperatures below absolute zero
simple have no meaning.’
/ Steven Weinberg. The Nobel Prize in Physics 1979 /
==.
We need to understand what 'nothing' / vacuum is.
Paul Dirac wrote:
" The problem of the exact description of vacuum, in my opinion,
is the basic problem now before physics. Really, if you can't correctly
describe the vacuum, how it is possible to expect a correct description
of something more complex? "
=.
Today everybody knows that the Universe had a beginning from 'Big Bang'.
As result of 'Big Bang' the temperature in universe is now T=2,7 . . . .
.. . .and this T=2,7 every second goes down to . . . T=0K.
When the universe reach the T=0K we will be all died. . . . .
. . . . but thanks to the ENTROPY, it will not allow this death.
===…
socratus
 

Seed-Wad

Active Member
Local time
Today 7:15 PM
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
118
---
Life is a form of negative entropy, but it accomplishes this by increasing the entropy of the surrounding as opposed to a surrounding that is left alone.

Take water with sugars. If left alone it will stay the same for a long time (until the atoms degrade radiactively?). It may lose enthalpy as far as to reach 0 K, but inside the sugar molecules energy will be preserved. If yeast is added, it will degrade the sugar to molecules of lower energy and thus increase entropy considerably (in any case, it will hasten the process).

I can't imagine an opposite force to entropy that does not, in order to function, increase entropy in turn. Though my imagination is not formidable.
Perhaps... crystalisation? It's ordering of disordered molecules as a reaction to loss of enthalpy (though, again that lost energy has to go somewhere...)
 

DIALECTIC

Active Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
281
---
Isn't what we humans call "order" (for example tower blocks etc.) in fact "disorder" for nature ?
Therefore, entropy is just what is meant to be, while negentropy a natural aberration ?

Also, the cost of maintening negentropy of an "idealized human system" is the very entropy of the natural system it is dependant on...
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
Isn't what we humans call "order" (for example tower blocks etc.) in fact "disorder" for nature ?
Therefore, entropy is just what is meant to be, while negentropy a natural aberration ?

Also, the cost of maintening negentropy of an "idealized human system" is the very entropy of the natural system it is dependant on...
Why do you associate entropy with nature?
Is not life part of nature?
Any smallest lifeform that reproduces also increases order in the system.
I would not be so hasty to relate unnatural actions with humans, many if not every thing humans do can be found in animalia.
Tower blocks are our sophisticated nests, ants or bees can create equally complex structures if only on a smaller scale.

It is true that while we increase order in our small reference system, we decrease order of earth we live on, our negentropy contribution is vastly mismatched to the continuous entropy present in solar system or any star system in particular.

Life is a constant rearangement of matter that in its scale tends to raise complexity.
 
Last edited:

BigApplePi

Banned
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,984
---
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
If the spring wound down, what would be the process that wound it? There's an answer in there somewhere.

Consider time as having two directions instead of forward.
Going backwards in time is the negentropy you are seeking.

Anti-Matter can be thought of as equal in value but opposite in time space.
Anti-Matter could be considered as moving backwards from our perspective.
 
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
949
---
Location
Upstairs
Order is the anti-entropy. Its a never ending spiral up/ into the ever increasing organized intelligence/ light. Its simultaneously complex and elegantly simple in design and application. It transcends all: esp the humanoid version of evolution (the pieces of it that are correctly understood at present).

Entropy is easy. Order takes an investment of time, effort, intelligent thought. Analogous to the difference between tearing down a building v building one up.

The source from which this Order everlastingly springs is the next most logical question...
 

Milo

Brain Programmer
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Jul 14, 2012
Messages
1,018
---
Location
MN
Complexity is the opposite of entropy. Which interestingly implies that evolution is an anti-entropic processes, which it is. This leads fundamentalists to try and prove therefore that evolution can't occur, which is ridiculous of course. While the entire system (the universe) trends towards entropy, locally the opposite can happen. At any rate our Sun generates so much entropy that our piddly evolution is just a round off error.

Bravo!
 

s0cratus

Banned
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Messages
366
---
Does it? If so, what is it?

If not, why wouldn't it? Why isn't there an equal and opposite entropic force? Why would entropy be unidirectional? Why no gradient?

Order and disorder work in conjunction, correct?

I present the humble idea of extropy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negentropy

If you understand what the quant of entropy is
then you have the answer to your question.
===
 

DIALECTIC

Active Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
281
---
Consider time as having two directions instead of forward.
Going backwards in time is the negentropy you are seeking.

Anti-Matter can be thought of as equal in value but opposite in time space.
Anti-Matter could be considered as moving backwards from our perspective.

That's interesting.
Does it mean that negentropy could basically be "studying" the / our past in order to improve the system's integrity since unbound progress towards the future means entropy ? Therefore the only thing to slow down such entropy is to learn thru mistakes thru regression ie negentropy (going backwards in time).

Is anti-matter going backwards in time ie before matter existed ?
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
That's interesting.
Does it mean that negentropy could basically be "studying" the / our past in order to improve the system's integrity since unbound progress towards the future means entropy ? Therefore the only thing to slow down such entropy is to learn thru mistakes thru regression ie negentropy (going backwards in time).

Is anti-matter going backwards in time ie before matter existed ?
Good questions. Answers depends on the frame of reference.
We could refer to many ideas, M-theory or different Multiverse theories.

From our perspective negentropy is past. From the perspective of a whole system entropy and negentropy cancel out and leave some initial values.

There are many views to the predicted end of universe.
One of them is that after infinitely long amount of time, that will pass (infinite doesn't mean it's impossible, it means we dont know the exact value, or that this exact value is beyond our scope of imagination), universe will reach total balance it had prior to the great expansion. It leaves universe in the same state it was in before entropy acted on it.

Depending on how many dimensions are considered, entropy has one direction in 4th dimension, however comparing entropy to 8 or more dimensional multiverse shows how our 5 dimensional reference frame as inbalanced to a greater whole.
I understand that we want to slow down entropy in order to preserve ourselves?
We do it all the time, however our results looking at a wider reference frame bring temporary solutions.

Parts of our universe can be further imbalanced, we could increase order in our solar system at the cost of our galaxy falling apart. As the entropy universally means that our actions never will increase total order.

One of the simple rules to slow down entropy in our small system would be to increase its mass. The more mass the more gravity helps maintain its ordered state in the expanding universe.
 

DIALECTIC

Active Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
281
---
Shouldn't therefore anti-matter be in fact called ante-matter (as in BEFORE / PRIOR TO), you know like the "ante-Christ" versus the "anti-Christ" ?

Could anti-matter therefore be "idea" matter comes / is born from ?
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
There is considerable speculation as to why the observable universe is apparently composed almost entirely of ordinary matter, as opposed to a more symmetric combination of matter and antimatter. This asymmetry of matter and antimatter in the visible universe is one of the greatest unsolved problems in physics.[2] The process by which this asymmetry between particles and antiparticles developed is called baryogenesis.
There is no agreement whether it flows in opposite direction of time. Antimatter is very mysterious because our observable universe composition as we understand it shows little to no signs of major antimatter quantities.

It is suggested that maybe at the beginning of the universe there were two equal quantities of matter and antimatter as proposed by E=mc^2.

I can see the naming problem, non-matter is unclear and incorrect as it clearly behaves like matter.
"Ante" does not suggest this symmetry and as i mentioned, this is not definite for now.
Looking at how the same ammount of matter and antimatter is obtained from energy.

I think anti matter refers mainly to the properties and to the negation of both elements which produce energy. There is also a misunderstanding that "0" is nothing. In fact 0 is a number, usually obtained with a balanced equation. They were trying to show the same distance from 0 but on the opposite side, similar to -matter.
 

gilliatt

Active Member
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
425
---
Location
usa
We should go back to the second law of thermodynamics. The laws of thermodynamics apply to closed systems only. So let's say we look a an open system and we can find easily decreases in entropy. The refrigerator heat is pumped from cold to the warm outside atmosphere which is in defiance of the second law. So there is a warm object inside the refrigerator that is being cooled down. We have a different temperature from air inside to outside. Where does this energy come from? it is a violation of the second law. Walking uphill, we have to think of potential energy and chemical energy, electrical energy. In an open system, energy in flowing in from outside, but we have to bring this outside energy into our closed system. There is no more outside, open system. Alright, entropy always increases. On earth heat, temperature is trying to spread out evenly, equilibrium over the whole system. Now all the forms of energy this evenness of energy is distributed, it is not just heat. It could be electrical energy, flow of current etc. So sort of like spontaneous order taking place constantly. (Take fascism, communism, socialism- under those systems the free market, capitalism, freedom is trying to flow in constantly from somewhere in the cosmos for evenness. Same law, principle.)
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
(Take fascism, communism, socialism- under those systems the free market, capitalism, freedom is trying to flow in constantly from somewhere in the cosmos for evenness. Same law, principle.)

This applies to any system; our social oligarchy, athenian democracy etc.
Any ordered system is first doomed to underperform, then to fall apart.
Unless you design a system that has mechanisms to deal with ever present entropy. Such systems, similar to human organism, can repair its elements and give beginning to a new system.
One exeption to this is our closed universe. As entropy in our universe stays the same, there is no energy flowing out of our universe.
 

nebnobla

Red-shirted ass
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
58
---
Location
Ontario, Canada
Organization
 

nebnobla

Red-shirted ass
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
58
---
Location
Ontario, Canada
Check the logical hierarchy of your comparisons, some of the comparisons being made may be delving too deep into human things. Life is not on a pedestal. Your body is a union of segregated regions comprising of different assortments of machines collectively operating like a vehicle, with an energy input (food) analogous to fuel in an automobile, only the scale and scope of this vehicle deceives one into thinking it is separate from the rest of matter. In the crudest terms, the only difference between yourself and a rock is that you have moving parts. The result of this mechanic, whether it be your ability to walk, talk, think, sense, etc, are all products of separate mechanical systems of design of the most profound grit and complexity; perhaps the elegance of the engineering of this vehicle and the fact that it was derived by a completely unguided and "high entropy" process (evolution) provides the merit that it must be treated so dearly and be named Life; however, it is not on a pedestal in logical terms.
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
Ha! You would then propose that thought and intellect itself are natural? That for our thought to occur how are we material there is a deterministic mechanism that is behind this?

That the universe is so simple that its states involve states of matter that induces self-wonder?

You forget about entropy here totally, information too has its entropy.
 
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,022
---
Check the logical hierarchy of your comparisons, some of the comparisons being made are delving too deep into human things. Life is not on a pedestal. Your body is a union of segregated regions comprising of different assortments of machines collectively operating like a vehicle, with an energy input (food) analogous to fuel in an automobile, only the scale and scope of this vehicle deceives one into thinking it is separate from the rest of matter. In the crudest terms, the only difference between yourself and a rock is that you have moving parts. The result of this mechanic, whether it be your ability to walk, talk, think, sense, etc, are all products of separate mechanical systems of design of the most profound grit and complexity; perhaps the elegance of the engineering of this vehicle and the fact that it was derived by a completely unguided and "high entropy" process (evolution) provides the merit that it must be treated so dearly and be named Life; however, it is not on a pedestal in logical terms.
I agree with a lot of this because it's part of something larger, except the "unguided" portion. Evolution is self-guided (disproportionately so, as sentience is not ubiquitous; not a pedestal, but a gradient) in an as of yet inconceivable manner through reciprocal causality. If anything, life is not logical, as it is inseparable from perception. Compatibilism. Troof.
 

nebnobla

Red-shirted ass
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
58
---
Location
Ontario, Canada
Ha! You would then propose that thought and intellect itself are natural? That for our thought to occur how are we material there is a deterministic mechanism that is behind this?

That the universe is so simple that its states involve states of matter that induces self-wonder?

You forget about entropy here totally, information too has its entropy.

You are natural. Cities are natural. Land exploitation is natural. Computers are natural. Fuel usage is natural. Timbits are natural. Dubstep is natural. Absurdity is natural. Snow is natural. Ants are natural. Iphones are natural. Music is natural. Water bottles are natural. Freedom is natural. Holocene is natural. God is natural.

Unintelligent or intelligent, it is natural, a product of nature; and yes, things may simplified to a degree, that is, compared to the incorrect and over-complicated (with human things) theories that paint us on a pedestal. But it's not necessarily simplified; the human construction is utterly complex and misunderstood.

And your interpretation of things is up to you. Your senses were originally designed to increase probability of survival and reproduction on planet Earth, in our specific environment. There is no other reason for them. The fact that you may apply them to observation for wonder is a fluke; a product of the fluke of logic through memory. Your perception of the universe is based on a model of surviving on some primordial rock floating on an infinite plane that is a constituent of a much larger system that we barely understand. Not that we have the intellectual capacity to realize such things, we are designed for the rock, and it would only be another fluke if we could apply our logic into figuring out the mechanics of the universe--a terrible truth that is neglected too often.

And entropy may be a measure of lack of predictability, of potential states at one point in time, and can be characterized by a system space. Humans, with logical language based on memory capacity, will attempt to decrease the entropy of any system as to make it more predictable for their needs and [mostly] their wants. However, the environmental systems themselves rely on maximizing entropy as to increase biodiversity and the complexity of ecological subsystems. The ecosphere is always changing it's characteristics based on weather conditions and imposed human organization, like a capitalist system responding instantaneously in response to market volatility, etc. This system relies on high unpredictability as well as to increase capital flows through investments that may or may not be good investments, though are only possible with the absence of an entirely predictable economy, etc; not sure if that analogy is entirely consistent but hopefully you catch my drift.
 

nebnobla

Red-shirted ass
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
58
---
Location
Ontario, Canada
I agree with a lot of this because it's part of something larger, except the "unguided" portion. Evolution is self-guided (disproportionately so, as sentience is not ubiquitous; not a pedestal, but a gradient) in an as of yet inconceivable manner through reciprocal causality. If anything, life is not logical, as it is inseparable from perception. Compatibilism. Troof.

I believe that it is entropy with imposed limitations, which is that the environment is changing in such a complex and unpredictable manner, which is the determinant of evolutionary fitness in some specific environment, though is still limited by the potential environment and climate conditions for some system, i.e. Earth. And evolution has no goal; it has no guide, random mutations form differential chances of survival and reproduction between species of different characteristics, which survive and reproduce based on how those randomly generated features operate in the ever-changing environment, i.e. how adequate they are for the environment in increasing their chances of survival and reproduction, not how perfect they are. Just because it has some order in the concepts does not imply it is entirely non-entropic. It has an immense lack of predictability, and thus it may be defined in information terms as a "high-entropy" process, possibly.
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
This is a third thread I see where the discussion led to determinism and existence of randomness.

Do you also deny free will?
I am a nihilist to the human will abstraction point. If I was to remove this abstraction too I see not a single thing that would have any value. The fact that I like something as a result of deterministic process in my brain would lead me to conclude I have no desires as a machine and just run my program.

To maintain efficiency as a machine of this kind I would project a belief that I actually have a free will and can decide on various things.

Is there a difference between a computer on stand-by and computer calculating prime numbers? By the absolute deterministic notion I would see none.
 

nebnobla

Red-shirted ass
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
58
---
Location
Ontario, Canada
This is a third thread I see where the discussion led to determinism and existence of randomness.

Do you also deny free will?
I am a nihilist to the human will abstraction point. If I was to remove this abstraction too I see not a single thing that would have any value. The fact that I like something as a result of deterministic process in my brain would lead me to conclude I have no desires as a machine and just run my program.

To maintain efficiency as a machine of this kind I would project a belief that I actually have a free will and can decide on various things.

Is there a difference between a computer on stand-by and computer calculating prime numbers? By the absolute deterministic notion I would see none.

Well I would hope my model is coherent across many topics of discussion, otherwise I would probably be skeptical of my ideas. In this context, I believe every concept that describes every observable thing in the universe may be constructed into one concept map; in fact, many things may actually be similar in design and not require their own regions of the map, e.g. capitalism, evolution, and climate state being variations of dynamic equilibrium, whereas communism, human organization, over-parenting, etc, are variations of imposed order on a complex system that tends to work optimally in dynamic equilibrium, etc. Seeing the similarities between these concepts requires an understanding of the most fundamental components of each such that they may be compared and bridged. Which brings me to my next point: Semantics.

I believe the liberal arts industries would collapse if all their concepts were described in simple english, as the ideas would be obvious to everyone and the years that people spent memorizing unnecessary definitions would have been a waste; It's like memorizing a thousand ways to say the value 1, e.g. 1/2+1/2 or how about {[(d(6x)/dx * ∫₀⁴ x³ dx)/(4! 2^(ln e³))]*1/2}; it's bullshit. I believe one's potential to think complexly and far reaching is directly related to the use of their language. Ideas that are described using discrete (field-specific) terminology may be useful in a very specific context, but using such terminology is utterly useless for comparing the fundamental components of seemingly unrelated systems. You need to use common language to make it more readily obvious how these connections exist, i.e., if you are always using discrete terminology [for a specific field] then you will never see the concept map of everything; pretty much impossible. Thus it may seem weird to see re-occurring concepts, or for arguments of different origins and meaning to end up at the same conclusion, whereas I see it as a substantiation of the merit of the concept at hand.

I study Nanoscience, it is the theoretical basis for Nanotechnology. In my program, I am required to be comfortable with chemistry, physics, biology, engineering, computer science, math [of course], and some specialization; I take evolution, biology, and engineering classes when I can so I can supplement my ideas outside of school and bridge these seemingly unrelated fields. The truth: it's all basically the same thing! Biology is the study of Nature's engineering, engineering just being an application of physics, which describes all interactions in the universe. Chemistry to me is an context-specific application of physics such that we may utilize physical concepts more easily; it is an important field, but the only thing in the concept map that describes these fields is physics and math--nothing else. Of course, it would be difficult to describe all the ideas of each of these fields in these terms, so we create discrete terminology and methods; however, one day all scientists would have been taught from a Nanoscience perspective, as it is the only multidisciplinary field that allows for the different fields to be connected logically such that the utility from each may be combined.

My point is, I cannot confidently interpret your statement and provide a satisfactory answer [for myself], is there a more simple english way to describe it? And I apologize for the lecture or if I sound like a bish; this is one of the best ways for me to learn myself, i.e., to try to rationalize something.
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
I will provide simpler version for this instance.
In a totally predictable world.
There is a cube and there is a rotating cube.
Every possible state for these cubes has been determined.
Looking at any of the states does not bring any new information.
These cubes are long done when the time ends because of entirely predictable states.

By this notion I would see no value in any thing, whatever its current state.

By the above time would either not exist and be an immovable object or it would be the only infinite thing in the universe.
 

nebnobla

Red-shirted ass
Local time
Today 1:15 PM
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
58
---
Location
Ontario, Canada
I will provide simpler version for this instance.
In a totally predictable world.
There is a cube and there is a rotating cube.
Every possible state for these cubes has been determined.
Looking at any of the states does not bring any new information.
These cubes are long done when the time ends because of entirely predictable states.

By this notion I would see no value in any thing, whatever its current state.

By the above time would either not exist and be an immovable object or it would be the only infinite thing in the universe.

"These cubes are long done," what do you mean, understood? The fact that a machine interprets the behaviour of something to the degree of absolute predictability does not impose a change in it's state, unless the method of observation had done so, e.g. observing a subatomic particle using light would change it's state as the momentum of the photon that was used to measure the state would have flung the measured particle away [into another state] even before that photon had hit your detector, thus your observation would have been a history of the object observed and not it's immediate state.

"By this notion I would see no value in any thing, whatever its current state;" What if you did not care about the fact that you could predict it? Perhaps you were more interested in feeling the edges of the cube or trying to draw pictures and designs as you pissed on the side of the cube (of course, the existence of urine would imply a more complex system than two cubes); only the INTP may feel the dissatisfaction as they are the kind of people who really on unsolved problems of personal-interest to stay occupied. It is your responsibility to resolve that dissatisfaction. Although, this universe would never exist as humans would have to be there to observe it, which means that the complexity of humans must be fully accounted for and predictable such that you arrive at this realization that we know every possible state of every constituent of the universe on a predictable basis, and we are not there yet (this example is of course an applied one, and not a theoretical one); does this make sense?

"By the above time would either not exist and be an immovable object or it would be the only infinite thing in the universe;" What concept implies that absolutely predictability would make time stop? If I knew what was going to happen, perhaps I'd be bored and possibly go insane, but time does not have to stop; again, the observer only affects the measured object under certain circumstances (we still don't understand the universe, so there could be more to it), the effect the object has on the observer does not necessarily mean an equal affect will be imposed on the object by the observer (or does it? Seriously, just had the thought and I can't think it out; I'm just sketched from Newton's 2nd--even though it explicitly applies to forces, what if there is an analogous pattern except with different fundamental components, e.g. for every [something] there is an equal and opposite [something], etc, that we have not discovered?). In the case of it being the only infinite thing in the universe, well, did you not say that it is the only thing in the universe (erm...world)? And would a better word not be constant, i.e. constant behaviour? In that terminology it looses it's significance in the eyes of a thing that can feel I think, I mean, from the significance we feel from the meaning of "infinite;" In any case, this is the same as time stopping in your interpretation, i.e. that time stops when everything in the universe is entirely predictable, it is the fact that it is infinite which makes the time stop, I suppose, i.e. predictable, by your interpretation; at least how I see it, these are the same conclusion-- one is assuming time stops when everything is predictable, the other being that we have to wait of the infinite [*sassy girl voice*:...boring!].

In any case, humans and our supercomputers (even superquantum computers) will likely not be able to ever fully understand these things, unless we are living in a simulation we designed to survive, which would have likely been built by a kind of super computer. But we need to consider the fact the the fact that we can think logically is a fluke itself; it does have limits in terms of our ability to understand/conceive concepts and/or make observations (and understand how to make those observations, i.e., the specific scientific methods) from which we may deduce an understanding of those concepts.

We as INTPs may try to attempt insurmountable questions; don't get caught up in the fact that, humans--we have complex problems that have solutions that are simple, neat..., and wrong. Work from the outer borders of your grand concept map of ideas and patterns you have identified, and then cross reference your discoveries with path findings to check for consistency.

Don't just keep the semantics to this instance; I'll certainly be discussing more with you.

And sorry if it's long and goes off-topic, I'm pretty stoned and a little drunk right now..
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
Although, this universe would never exist as humans would have to be there to observe it, which means that the complexity of humans must be fully accounted for and predictable such that you arrive at this realization that we know every possible state of every constituent of the universe on a predictable basis, and we are not there yet (this example is of course an applied one, and not a theoretical one); does this make sense?
How would the universe never exist if there were no humans to observe it?
It could still go on and be fine, it doesn't require our awarness.
What concept implies that absolutely predictability would make time stop? If I knew what was going to happen, perhaps I'd be bored and possibly go insane, but time does not have to stop; again, the observer only affects the measured object under certain circumstances (we still don't understand the universe, so there could be more to it), the effect the object has on the observer does not necessarily mean an equal affect will be imposed on the object by the observer (or does it?
Time as a continuum of scenes, a film. We feel like we travel ahead, however we are actually taken on a ride regardless of how we feel about our decisions.
Seriously, just had the thought and I can't think it out; I'm just sketched from Newton's 2nd--even though it explicitly applies to forces, what if there is an analogous pattern except with different fundamental components, e.g. for every [something] there is an equal and opposite [something], etc, that we have not discovered?).
Well going with determinism there would be{for [something] there is an appropriate and following from previous states [something]}
In any case, humans and our supercomputers (even superquantum computers) will likely not be able to ever fully understand these things, unless we are living in a simulation we designed to survive, which would have likely been built by a kind of super computer. But we need to consider the fact the the fact that we can think logically is a fluke itself; it does have limits in terms of our ability to understand/conceive concepts and/or make observations (and understand how to make those observations, i.e., the specific scientific methods) from which we may deduce an understanding of those concepts.

Yes it may be impossible to ever fully comprehend a near-infinite complexity if it's large enough.
 
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,022
---
Consider time as having two directions instead of forward.
Going backwards in time is the negentropy you are seeking.

Anti-Matter can be thought of as equal in value but opposite in time space.
Anti-Matter could be considered as moving backwards from our perspective.
I'll start off by responding to this little chunk from a little while back.

If you present winding the spring and unwinding it as a temporal dichotomy, what does that mean in the context of this?

I'm thinking this. :D
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 6:15 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
I'll start off by responding to this little chunk from a little while back.

If you present winding the spring and unwinding it as a temporal dichotomy, what does that mean in the context of this?

I'm thinking this. :D

After carefully rejecting different possible abstractions from your post...... at 1 cuil i gave you a perfect explanation of negentropy measuring 0 cuil and you mistook it for abstraction.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom